Caffeine revisited

[Hounddog]

I know there was a thread regarding coffee, tea, etc., recently but could not find it when I went looking for it. But the topic of caffeine has been kicking around in my head a bit lately.

While I agree with EGW's writings regarding coffee and tea, there is another issue that I didn't see listed, but it is important anyway. And that is when things are not mentioned in the Bible or even in SOP, one group or another will try and justify what they wish to do. I have even heard some say that smoking is not in the Bible so it can't really be wrong!

What I find interesting is that while coffee and tea can be routinely attacked because EGW said it was wrong, in my book, it is "outdated" as a significant concern. And no, I do not support the drinking of coffee. For myself, I can not tolerate it as an event occurred that had me making multiple trips to my cardiologist and I concluded that coffee was not in my best interests, and I love coffee!    However, there is significant evidence that for many people, coffee has clear advantages over not drinking coffee.

The clearest evidence to suggest that coffee is not in your best interest is a recent study in which it was shown that although coffee MAY increase blood pressure, there is actually a decreased blood flow in the brain. So, my conclusion is, if brain chemistry is altered, then brain function will be altered and hence, the Holy Spirit may have a more difficult time helping you to abide in Jesus and having Jesus abide in you.

Now, I did mention that SOP writings regarding coffee were "outdated". I say this because todays world has changed a lot in the foods/drinks we consume. In EGW's day, they did not have to deal with pesticides in the food chain, no GMO foods, and NO high fructose corn syrup. I personally am not as concerned about GMOs as many are, but I consider high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) to far out weigh caffeine as a concern. But little to no official church papers will call HFCS a sinful act or one that is not compatible with SDA teachings.

HFCS has been implicated as one of the primary factors (not forgetting the marked decrease in outdoor play among children and the marked increase in fast food consumption) in the explosion of obesity in the USA, it is also given credit for a marked rise in "metabolic syndrome," and the development of fatty liver. HFCS has been shown in one major university study to be directly involved in turning off appetite suppression, meaning that victims would have a harder time determining when they had consumed enough food.

So, the criticism of coffee drinking issue is clouded by two other factors. The lack of Scriptural discussion of new substances that are not healthy and the rise of things that you could argue are significantly more damaging that coffee.

Apologies for any points that may have been already brought out in prior threads.

[Listen]

The discussion on coffee and caffeine has for some time been a problem for me.  With a migraine disorder the only thing I can take to help is an OTC with caffeine.  Sometimes taking one pill with a little coffee helps the pill work better.  My sister can just use a little coffee to abort her migraine attack so.....   Which is worse the coffee or more pain meds or other rx drugs that are truly poison with awful side effects.   There is no one perfect answer.   I would give this stuff up in a heart beat if I could control the migraine symptoms naturally.   And I do keep trying to find a way.
But actually what the problem to me is people being unwilling to give up items that are not necessary to a healthy lifestyle.  Or even to be addicted to some food that is healthy.  And EGW was not given the whole list of future foods to avoid but as in the Bible she gave principles to help guide us. 
There are many frankenfoods now that people should avoid.  So much of what is in the stores is man made and not real food.  Or a little real food processed with chemicals.  I am not so much afraid of gmos as I am of groups or entities controlling the worlds food supply.  Research showing real health benefits from just eating more fruits and veges are done using conventional food given to people eating the SAD diet.  Just some of my thoughts.   

[Hounddog]

The discussion on coffee and caffeine has for some time been a problem for me.  With a migraine disorder the only thing I can take to help is an OTC with caffeine.  Sometimes taking one pill with a little coffee helps the pill work better.  My sister can just use a little coffee to abort her migraine attack so.....   Which is worse the coffee or more pain meds or other rx drugs that are truly poison with awful side effects.   There is no one perfect answer.   I would give this stuff up in a heart beat if I could control the migraine symptoms naturally.

There is exists a bit of a gulf between using a substance as a medicine and using a substance for recreational purposes or to just get thru your day when other measures would have done an even better job of relieving the problem.

We widely accept that marijuana use is unacceptable for general use, but I would support without hesitation someone using it in chemo situations or other conditions resulting in severe suffering problems when no other medicines work. I was able to get hospice to provide Marinol (the active ingredient of marijuana) for my mother when she was dying. It relieved her symptoms of suffering far better than any of the other medications the doctors were giving her for nausea. She would have earlier been extremely against such a medication. Some confusion set in with the Marinol and I suggested that she slow down the Marinol. She said, "Not if I get sick like I was!" I left it where the medication was. End of life is not really a time for enforcing healthy lifestyles.

A similar principle could be found for other medications. I would believe that caffeine that helps in a migraine situation is completely an acceptable practice and not a sin. I think everyone actually using a substance knows in their heart why they are taking it and fool no one, especially God, when consuming a substance that they know is really no needed for the current situation.

[Larry Lyons]

I recently saw a health program on TV that showed the brain scan of woman before and after drinking a cup of coffee. The after coffee scan showed a big decrease in blood flow to the frontal lobe of the brain. As Listen suggested, caffeine can help stop a headache, but for many coffee drinkers, the morning  headache is the result of caffeine withdrawal. Getting off of caffeine may cure the headaches. (I'm not talking about migraine headaches).
A few decades ago, before acetaminofen (Tylenol) was developed, the most common non narcotic pain reliever was a pill containing aspirin, phenacetin, and caffeine, referred to as APCs. I didn't think they made it anymore.  There was even a pain reliever called Edrasil that contained aspirin, phenacetin and 2 1/2 mgs of Dexadrine. (amphetamine). Back in the 1970s hospital staff members sometimes used it as a hangover cure.

I have a question.
One of our church members who is facing church discipline for an unrelated problem is growing marijuana. He has 6 large plants in his garden that he was happy to show me. He has a card and the legal papers signed by a physician that makes it legal for him to grow and use it. But not sell it which I'm sure he plans to do anyway.

I know that he is thinking that since he is growing and using it legally, he has multiple physical problems including back pain, and migraine headaches, the church has nothing to say about it. But my thinking is that alcohol is also legal, but a person who uses alcohol cannot be a member of the Adventist church.

I would like to hear thoughts on this.

[Hounddog]

I have a question.

One of our church members who is facing church discipline for an unrelated problem is growing marijuana. He has 6 large plants in his garden that he was happy to show me. He has a card and the legal papers signed by a physician that makes it legal for him to grow and use it. But not sell it which I'm sure he plans to do anyway.

I know that he is thinking that since he is growing and using it legally, he has multiple physical problems including back pain, and migraine headaches, the church has nothing to say about it. But my thinking is that alcohol is also legal, but a person who uses alcohol cannot be a member of the Adventist church.

I would like to hear thoughts on this.

I would think that the prohibition on the use of alcohol is for "recreational" use. One would hardly disfellowship someone for the use of alcohol if given under the care of a physician, and there have been accepted conditions where alcohol has been used.

Marijuana presents problems. The fellow cited in the quote would be difficult to speak to as the severity of his medical problems can only be guessed at. However, I believe many people are using health problems as an excuse for a medical marijuana card. As far as the back pain goes, marijuana could make someone too lazy to do the things you have to do to get over back pain!

The church should go very slowly in cases of members using marijuana for medical reasons. It does have well documented benefits in certain conditions. Knee jerk reactions regarding marijuana are very uncalled. There was a case where a church member was disfellowshipped over medical marijuana:
http://atoday.org/adventist-woman-disfellowshiped-for-medical-marijuana-use/

[Larry Lyons]

I have a question.

One of our church members who is facing church discipline for an unrelated problem is growing marijuana. He has 6 large plants in his garden that he was happy to show me. He has a card and the legal papers signed by a physician that makes it legal for him to grow and use it. But not sell it which I'm sure he plans to do anyway.

I know that he is thinking that since he is growing and using it legally, he has multiple physical problems including back pain, and migraine headaches, the church has nothing to say about it. But my thinking is that alcohol is also legal, but a person who uses alcohol cannot be a member of the Adventist church.

I would like to hear thoughts on this.

I would think that the prohibition on the use of alcohol is for "recreational" use. One would hardly disfellowship someone for the use of alcohol if given under the care of a physician, and there have been accepted conditions where alcohol has been used.

Marijuana presents problems. The fellow cited in the quote would be difficult to speak to as the severity of his medical problems can only be guessed at. However, I believe many people are using health problems as an excuse for a medical marijuana card. As far as the back pain goes, marijuana could make someone too lazy to do the things you have to do to get over back pain!

The church should go very slowly in cases of members using marijuana for medical reasons. It does have well documented benefits in certain conditions. Knee jerk reactions regarding marijuana are very uncalled. There was a case where a church member was disfellowshipped over medical marijuana:
http://atoday.org/adventist-woman-disfellowshiped-for-medical-marijuana-use/

Hounddog, I agree that a knee jerk reaction is to be avoided.

To my knowledge there is no valid medical use of alcohol as a drink. The health benefits claimed for red wine can be gotten from grape juice. Of course tinctures are alcohol based which were once widely used and are still in use but that usually a very small dose. As a retired RN working in hospitals for my whole career, there was only one occasion in which a physician prescribed a can of beer for one of his patients. The patient was in DTs and the physician was not well informed in the treatment of DTs. A beer might have helped a little but the patient refused. He needed immediate IM sedation.
I know there may be occasions when a doctor tells a high strung hard working stressed out patient to relax and have a drink after work, but that is not the same as using recreational alcohol as a medicine.

I have seen the pill form of marijuana used for AIDs patients, but from what I have heard, most patients who use it for nausea due to chemotherapy or for chronic pain say that smoking it works better than taking the pill.

There was an incident at church when at a social event, (thanksgiving dinner) a visitor that most every one had known for a long time was there. I knew he was a heavy drinker, but on that occasion he looked terrible his color was not good and has hands were trembling. I talked to him and he seemed clear and coherent but I had decided that if he got worse I would have been willing to buy some alcohol for him at the local store.  Alcohol withdrawal can be life threatening for a chronic heavy drinker. DTs are a medical emergency.

[Listen]

There isn't always a way to treat back pain naturally by exercise etc.  I have friends who had serious injuries.  The only relief was oxycodone or morphine like drugs.  To take enough of these drugs to relieve the pain made them zombies.  Marijuana helped them get back their life to the best it can be.  Some people with migraine find great relief by using it and others don't.  I have no problem with it being used in a medical way but recreationally - no.  To grow it for ones own use is ok but any other intent isn't in my thinking.  Selling it is illegal in my state unless you are licensed to do so even though medical and recreational marijuana is legal. 

For myself I would like to know which is less harmful, coffee or acetaminophen? 

[Larry Lyons]

There isn't always a way to treat back pain naturally by exercise etc.  I have friends who had serious injuries.  The only relief was oxycodone or morphine like drugs.  To take enough of these drugs to relieve the pain made them zombies.  Marijuana helped them get back their life to the best it can be.  Some people with migraine find great relief by using it and others don't.  I have no problem with it being used in a medical way but recreationally - no.  To grow it for ones own use is ok but any other intent isn't in my thinking.  Selling it is illegal in my state unless you are licensed to do so even though medical and recreational marijuana is legal. 

For myself I would like to know which is less harmful, coffee or acetaminophen?

Listen, it would be pretty hard to kill yourself with coffee, but it would be easy with acetaminofen.  But one difference between acetaminofen and coffee, is that coffee is a mood altering addicting drug and acetaminofen is not. Millions of people have to jump start their day with coffee or they don't feel alert. Some people drink several cups during the day. It can be a problem for people with certain heart conditions. That is not true for tylenol etc.

[Hounddog]

There isn't always a way to treat back pain naturally by exercise etc.  I have friends who had serious injuries.  The only relief was oxycodone or morphine like drugs.  To take enough of these drugs to relieve the pain made them zombies.  Marijuana helped them get back their life to the best it can be. 

For myself I would like to know which is less harmful, coffee or acetaminophen?

For most back pain, exercise would be a benefit. Of course there are those who need significantly more radical therapies like surgery. In a recent book regarding neurosciences, the statement was made, "Depend on your chiropractor and you physical therapist to maintain your back." Physical therapists will give you exercises. You can even get up and learn how to do core strengthening exercises. Relying on any kind of medication for pain to get thru a back injury is not a good move. A clinical nurse specialist once told me to avoid any form of spine surgery unless absolutely necessary, i.e., a clearly visible defect somewhere in the spine that is unlikely to respond to what may be a longer recovery with more conservative means. And if contemplating surgery, get a 2nd opinion.

Coffee or acetaminophen? No brainer, acetaminophen is the more harmful. Acetaminophen requires much more careful use than coffee. You can drink a pot of coffee if you want, but take several does of acetaminophen at one time and you may end up on a liver transplant list. Acetaminophen has worrisome implications for alcoholics or those taking acetaminophen to relieve an alcoholic hangover. Acetaminophen uses some of the same metabolic pathways that the liver uses to detoxify alcohol. When those pathways are already used up processing something like alcohol, the liver uses an alternate pathway to detoxify acetaminophen and the metabolic by-products of that pathway are very damaging to the liver.

Another issue related to acetaminophen is the maximum daily dose one should take. The maximum dose that could be taken used to be 4000mg/24hr. Hospitals have lowered that to 3200mg/24hr. I believe it was NIH which came out with the recommended max daily dose of 2600mg/24hr. Right before all the changes in dosages, the pill manufacturers came out with 650mg tabs. People were used to those 325mg tabs and when not paying attention were taking 2 of the 650mg tabs! Do this a few times a day and your liver will take a hit.

Then, recently, and this is making big news, when someone takes acetaminophen their pain may be reduced, but so does their appreciation for the sufferings of anyone else also decrease. In other words, acetaminophen is also toxic to your sense of empathy. This is a relatively new finding and may take more research to get the full implications of these studies.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/05/160510084257.htm

[Listen]

That is an interesting study from Science Daily. 

Migraine is a serious brain condition caused by things going wrong in the brain and pain nerves.  The cause is complicated, argued about, and worth spending hundreds of millions of dollars to understand better.  The cause of migraine includes genetic factors, brain remolding from exposures, and physical and other injuries that occur over a lifetime.  In truth, it is hard to explain...  Dr. Young
The words in bold apply to me.
Migraines are not confined to the head.  They are a whole body experience and can vary greatly with individuals and change patterns over time.  Most people don't understand this.

That said.  I have taken generic exedrine for a long time and have always been careful to take the least amount possible.  99% of the time one pill will do it but for some time now am chronic daily.  Even only taking 1000mg of acetaminophen daily over time I don't think is good.  So I'm experimenting with some of the time using a pill that is all aspirin but it has less caffeine than the other.   That is fine and even preferable at night but doesn't quite do it during the day so requires the coffee kick.   For a really stubborn attack the exedrine ingredients do best though.  For some crazy reason I like to be functional.    And I am always working to find the healthiest way to get there.