Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position

[ElderTim]

Hi Everyone,

Lots and lots of questions but first and foremost, I know we must stay grounded in the Word of God to keep from confusion in these last days, but I feel there is definately some great contributions being made by independent or itinerant preachers.  The likes of Walter Veith, Stephen Boer, Doug Bachelor to name a few. Are these ministries shaking the cage so to speak? Your thoughts are welcome.

Elder Tim

[Raven]

Anyone who preaches a straight message, and by that I mean the "truth" as we have always understood it, will shake things up a bit.  Those men you mentioned are loyal Adventists, but they are not afraid to preach against error when they see it.  In some respects they are like Jeremiah; and will receive similar criticism.  The unvarnished truth is part of what produces The Shaking.  It seems to me that if a sermon doesn't "offend" someone, it hasn't achieved its goal.  The purpose of a sermon is to edify and encourage the saints, to magnify Christ, and to bring conviction to those who need it.  That will cause some to be uncomfortable.  That's a good sign.  It means they still have a conscience.

The independent ministries that I have a problem with are the ones which lead their members to develop a "bunker" mentality and to isolate themselves from believers who attend the local church.  These groups often become like cults.  They tend to see Jesuits behind every corner and a Sunday law buried in nearly every bill that comes before Congress.

Jesus had an independent ministry, but He didn't encourage His members to isolate themselves form the local synagogues or to withhold their tithe whenever the church did something they didn't like.  I like His example.

And by the way, welcome to the forum ElderTim.  I hope you will be blessed with what you find here.

[newbie]

Hi Everyone,

Lots and lots of questions but first and foremost, I know we must stay grounded in the Word of God to keep from confusion in these last days, but I feel there is definately some great contributions being made by independent or itinerant preachers.  The likes of Walter Veith, Stephen Boer, Doug Bachelor to name a few. Are these ministries shaking the cage so to speak? Your thoughts are welcome.

Elder Tim

It seems like Walter is the troubler of Israel. 

[Larry Lyons]

It seems like Walter is the troubler of Israel.  

Very true, Newbie.
Elder Tim. Welcome to the Forum!!
Unfortunately, some who dislike Walter Veith the most have never seen him or his DVDs, and wrongly accuse him of doing the opposite of what he really does. I think that his exposing the activities, the reach and interconnectedness of the various organizations and secret societies makes some church administrators and pastors uncomfortable. The term "conspiracy theorist" is a label used to discount and discredit whomever it is applied to and people tend to want to distance themselves from someone who might get branded with that label.  However, all of the information Walter Veith used in his Total Onslaught series was based on credible published material that has been around for many years.

Incidentally, his Total Onslaught series was recorded several years ago. His latest series "Total Transformation," is very much in tune with Ted Wilson's call for revival and reformation.

I agree that Doug Batchelor and Steve Bohr are not afraid to preach truth even if it steps on toes. Pastor O'Ffill is included in that list.

I noticed recently that John Lomacang preached about the entertainment world and presented  material similar to information that WF revealed concerning the widespread occult and Satanist connections within the entertainment industry that many, even among Adventists, have trouble accepting as real. .

[Ed Sutton]

Elijah & John the Baptist & EGW all troubled Israel in different centuries,  Israel needs to be troubled now.   When's the last time a visitor was given a hospitably warm welcome in the SDA Churches in the NAD ?  After having watched a bunch of Walter Veith's presentations, I say preach it stronger Walter 

Was bones in stones devisive IN the Church, ................... well .........maybe in La Sierra 

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/8/103-bones-in-stones/

[Raven]

 When's the last time a visitor was given a hospitably warm welcome in the SDA Churches in the NAD ? 

Not sure what you mean by that, Ed.  I've never visited a SDA Church where I didn't feel welcome, and I've been in churches from sea to shining sea, and in Canada.  I have observed that some folks seem to have a chip on their shoulder when they visit churches, and no matter how they are treated, they won't be happy.  Visitors to our small church are always made welcome.  In spite of that we once got a letter from someone complaining about how unfriendly we had been.    You can't please everyone.

[Jim]

Visitors to our small church are always made welcome.

Raven, I know most people will think that is a wonderful thing. I guess I'm the odd ball. When I'm visiting a church in a different area I always hope it's large enough that they won't notice that I'm a visitor. I really do not like all the attention that some churches give visitors. I visited a church a few years ago in KY where I could barely turn around without someone wanting to shake my hand and say welcome. I literally counted 5 or 6 times members shook my hand and welcomed me before I was finally able to sit down. I've been to some churches who actually ask the visitors to stand up. I never do..... why in the world would anyone want the whole group of strangers staring at them? I like to slip in enjoy a healthy discussion in Sabbath School and then listen to a good message for the service and slip out without much notice. But in most small churches alas this is almost impossible!  

[Raven]

Jim, I feel the same way you do, and, much as I don't like large churches, I find it easier to visit large churches because in a small church you are likely to get mobbed.  We try to hit a happy medium in our church.  We don't ask them to stand up (I don't understand why they do that in some churches), but we don't ignore them, either.  I like to know where visitors are from (it often provides a springboard for conversation, and there are often mutual acquaintances), but I don't always ask their names because I know that I'll forget them within 5 minutes.   

[newbie]

everyone is different....  a general welcome to visitors is all we need...  for the outgoing ones, we can approach and give them more... for the shy ones, let it be on their terms.

[Larry Lyons]

everyone is different....  a general welcome to visitors is all we need...  for the outgoing ones, we can approach and give them more... for the shy ones, let it be on their terms.

Newbie, that is the best way IMHO.
I have been in  churches where the infamous "greeting" is part of the worship service. To me it is particularly bothersome and I never participate in it. It is bizarre to engage in a loud, chaotic, contrived (and often hypocritical) show of friendliness that is focused on the congregation right at a time when we ought to be reverently and prayerfully in faith approaching the throne of our heavenly Father.

[Jim]

everyone is different....  a general welcome to visitors is all we need... 

So true Newbie. Everyone is indeed different. Which is why I admitted to being the oddball   And some people will feel slighted if someone didn't take the time to single them out and welcome them. I agree that probably a middle of the road approach is best.

[Tammy]

It is bizarre to engage in a loud, chaotic, contrived (and often hypocritical) show of friendliness that is focused on the congregation right at a time when we ought to be reverently and prayerfully in faith approaching the throne of our heavenly Father.

Totally agree!

[Raven]

I have been in  churches where the infamous "greeting" is part of the worship service. To me it is particularly bothersome and I never participate in it. It is bizarre to engage in a loud, chaotic, contrived (and often hypocritical) show of friendliness that is focused on the congregation right at a time when we ought to be reverently and prayerfully in faith approaching the throne of our heavenly Father.

I'm with you 100% on this, Larry.  Fortunately we only have one person who initiates "the greeting," and she's not there very often, and is not usually leading out.  But I've never participated in it, either, and for the same reasons as you.  Few seem to understand the proper decorum in the sanctuary.

[ElderTim]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. We definately went a different direction with the responses though! I would like to respond to several of the responses, sorry redundnt! First I personally believe there is a shaking and a revival of the church that is happening now.  I also believe, from personal experience that we walk a dangerous road if we are not grounded in the Word when we explore the topics presented by these movers and shakers in ministry. I am fascinated by the wealth of knowledge they present. But we must warn our people not to give more time to the enemy than we do to Christ!

 I also believe that we are in need of some true koininea, hope I spelled that right. Primitive Godliness is not so primitive, in fact it is the most advanced approach to our relationship with God through Jesus Christ that I have seen. Unfortunately, I also see a complacent, somber and prophectically unexcited and dangerously uneducated people. When I say this, I speak from my observations of my own people in my church. I believe they are grateful to Jesus Christ for His Grace, but I dont think they have that full understanding of what God expects from us as His Remnant Church. We all claim to love the Lord so very much, but only a few want to reach out with this gift of Life we have all been given. I agree, sometimes greetings in the sanctuary during service are a bit boisterous, but the body of Christ rarely takes the opportunity to get to know each other more than on Sabbath Mornings and a select few who socialize, but thats as far as it goes! I am afraid that just as the early church grew exponentially during times of crisis and persecution, so we as a church will shake and grow only when the Sunday Laws are a done deal! Sister White tells us plainly that if we wait till that occurs, we just cant change teams like that and Im truly concerned for my church family and our church as a whole...your thoughts.

[ElderTim]

I would also like to add my observation to this line of thought....if indeed the enemy has been concentrating his dominion over this world for almost 7000 years, then why is it so far fetched to admit and recognize the entrenched forms of worship he has established for himself among the elite of this planet? Most are ignorant of the Great Controversy so their view is clouded, including some Adventists, and equally ignorant and unbelieving. This is his greatest weapon against Gods people. Apathy and unbelief! Research the Bohemian Grove or the Bildeberg Group... These are well established "gentlemens clubs" where even our heads of state, for well over 120 years, and others are engaged in worshippng Molech, the god/demon spoken of in Leviticus, 1Kings ll Kings, Micah, Zephaniah, etc. Baal was also another name for this demon. It stands to reason that if he has been exerting his control over the earth, that he would have been laying the foundations of deception all this time. I for one have no problem with the facts....those who do may unfortunately be dangerously close to the deception, and in danger of being caught up in it. Just my observations. I believe my King Jesus is worthy of my worship. I wish to turn always from any allegiance that would place me or my family in compromise with the lie.