Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position

[Larry Lyons]

Elder Tim, thank you for the wise counsel and observations. I agree that there is a danger of becoming overly concerned and even obsessed with some of the things that are now being presented. You make a good point about being totally grounded in scripture. I believe that it is extremely vital that we make good use of the present time to know and understand from the Bible what we believe and be able to share it with others. In the little church I attend most of the members have been Adventists for a long time and have a general idea about what the Adventist church teaches, but many do not know the Bible very well.

[maimonides]

A review of history would seem to indicate that the Seventh-day Adventist Church started off as an independent ministry...
...And a study of  SDA publications  from 1850 through 1880 reveal that within that time hack.
...The Pioneers of the Faith identified their body as the Remnant.

It would be logical then to conclude that independent ministries, at the DNA level of Adventism....
...Are as much a part of Adventism as anything.

[Larry Lyons]

A review of history would seem to indicate that the Seventh-day Adventist Church started off as an independent ministry...
...And a study of  SDA publications  from 1850 through 1880 reveal that within that time hack.
...The Pioneers of the Faith identified their body as the Remnant.

It would be logical then to conclude that independent ministries, at the DNA level of Adventism....
...Are as much a part of Adventism as anything.

They are certainly a part of Adventism.  Some have made and still make important contributions to the work and  mission of the church and are leading  many to Christ.  Sadly, there are some that have parted company with the organized church because of various issues. Some of these seek to lead out of the organized church. Only by being grounded in the truths of the Bible can we be safe from being deceived. .

[maimonides]

They are certainly a part of Adventism.  Some have made and still make important contributions to the work and  mission of the church and are leading  many to Christ.  Sadly, there are some that have parted company with the organized church because of various issues. Some of these seek to lead out of the organized church. Only by being grounded in the truths of the Bible can we be safe from being deceived. .

Yes, however eventually the mechanism employed to vett the truth from error is "Church Authority"....
...And as the Catholics are fond of saying; 'if everyone has authority then no one has it'.
...One persons interpretation of Scripture can be just as right as the next.

[Larry Lyons]

...One persons interpretation of Scripture can be just as right as the next.

That is the falsehood of postmodern relativism. False teachers reveal themselves sooner or later. "By their fruits ye shall know them."

[maimonides]

That is the falsehood of postmodern relativism. False teachers reveal themselves sooner or later. "By their fruits ye shall know them."

Yes, and they simply re-define what is good fruit.

[Raven]

...One persons interpretation of Scripture can be just as right as the next.

Come again?  So, our Sunday-keeping friends are correct in their interpretation of Scripture?  And Catholics are correct with their doctrine of transubstantiation?  And those who believe that one goes to heaven (or hell) when they die are on the right track?  Do you realize the can of worms you open when you take that position.  No, it is impossible that Scripture can be interpreted anyway we want.  The reason we have so many denominations is that too many people have interpreted Scripture according to their own whims.

[Ed Sutton]

defining questions that qualify ought be asked.

1. Called of God or offshoot ?
2. fruits of the Spirit and of righteousness ?
3. Unity with the brethern in harmony with John chapter 17 ?
4. A ministry that is a needed part of the worldwide mission and adorns the calling of Revelation chapter 10 ?
5. filling a need not otherwise touched ?
6. Self supporting but local, conference, union, devision, world Church supportive ?
7. Divine evidence of their calling ?
8. retaining brotherhood connections with local conferences, unions, world church ?
9. Whose ire gets directed against it and why ?

[Larry Lyons]

defining questions that qualify ought be asked.

1. Called of God or offshoot ?
2. fruits of the Spirit and of righteousness ?
3. Unity with the brethern in harmony with John chapter 17 ?
4. A ministry that is a needed part of the worldwide mission and adorns the calling of Revelation chapter 10 ?
5. filling a need not otherwise touched ?
6. Self supporting but local, conference, union, devision, world Church supportive ?
7. Divine evidence of their calling ?
8. retaining brotherhood connections with local conferences, unions, world church ?
9. Whose ire gets directed against it and why ?

Ed, those are good questions to ask of independent ministries.

[Ed Sutton]

Lines Regular and Irregular.

       (In connection with the two following Testimonies,
              see Testimony of September 12, 1908.) {SpM 191.3 - 193.6}

There is a big difference in self supporting work and an independent ministry once the semantics differences are settled.    A genuine independent minbistry is INDEPENDENT of the worldwide family of churches and organized conference system and probably the SDA denomination. 

Ever since EGW's lifetime there have been self supporting works, or ministries, or movements within the SDA faith, some with the blessing of God, and some not.

Satan stirred up little kings within the faith all over the planet to rule where ever they could, and spoil the unity and one ness for which Christ prayed in John 17.

Persecution will remove such from all parts of the faith, but the little kings have sucessfully caused souls to be lost, that was their function under Satan's leadership.  They did not even have to be aware of it, just retain self as an idol and the modality would operate through them as Satan's tools.

[Ed Sutton]

Madison, Southern Publishing, Little Creek, laurelbrook, Wildwood, Uchee Pines, all were started as self supporting institutions.  calling for tithe, setting up seperate Church officers, identifying themselves as a seperate people of faith different from the denomination, was not in their thinking or radar.  They were undertaking to do a work the organized conference system was not doing.

They identified themselves as Seventh Day Adventists, the people of the same faith as the conference officals whom the members of their groups and churches would vote upon and consider electing to those conference positions.

Conference officals could and did visit and mingle freely among these institutions, many of whom were friends of these institutions and there to interchange telling what was going on in the conference offices and pray together as brethern, and learn and share about the behind the scenes,  world wide grass roots work going on around the world .

it was simply family members visiting briefly and interchanging, encouraging, assisting, praying, working, visiting together, refreshing each other and being refreshed.

Not all was rosy, not all was under handed.    Some was noble and some was base.   Satan was neausated by the happiness and unity and stayed active to mess things up.

[Richard OFfill]

Have you noticed that independent ministries are usually under the control of what might be called a cult leader.

[restoretruth]

Have you noticed that independent ministries are usually under the control of what might be called a cult leader.

Pastor,
I know you believe we understand what you think you said, but I am not sure you realize that what we read is not what you meant.  Please explain thyself!  

Did you not just paint most independent ministries (as in ASI ) as usually being cults with cult leaders!  Or did we not understand what we thought we read?

[Raven]

Have you noticed that independent ministries are usually under the control of what might be called a cult leader.

But Pastor, don't you have an independent ministry? 

All independent ministries are not created equal.  Those whose sole purpose appears to be to attack the church should come under suspicion.  Those whose message results in many people leaving their local church and meeting separately should come under suspicion.   Those whose message results in people withholding their tithes and offerings, or sending them to the independent ministry, should come under suspicion. But I've never heard Pastor O'Ffill, or Stephen Bohr, or Adventists Affirm, just to name a few that come to mind, ask for tithe or suggest that we stop going to our local church.  What I hear from many of these organizations is a call for reform, and a clear stand on many issues which have become controversial or confusing in recent years.  Anyone who denies that we need reforms in the church, has been out of touch with reality for a long time.

[Ed Sutton]

Dependent on God, or ( "independent of God " = 43 hits ) is the real question to ask of a ministry.  How do they relate to Revelation chapter 10 & chapters 1-3 and chapter 14 ?

Within some of our readers lifetime this quote will be fulfilled.

   In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But, it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the daytime we look toward heaven, but do not see stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster.  {ChS 49.2} 
     The time is not far distant, when the test will come to every soul. . . . In this time, the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy, will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.--Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 80,81.  {ChS 49.3}   

The danger of self congradulation in the here and now, is in moving toward being the majority ....................the majority who......... who forsake God when it gets too tough to stay AND congradulate self.      Kingly power too often built the root of bitterness that motivated the genesis and reason for existance of more than a few ministries, independent or not.

The proverbial iron was hot and John Osborne wanted to use tithe to buy sattelite time to preach the 3 Angels messages.  was he treated with kindness and wise dialog or stirred up by the responce of kingly power ?   Kingly power created a bad reaction.  It did not stop there.  John Grosboll took over Steps to Life after his brother died, he was angry and bitter about things he saw and experienced in the system.   

When ever the King is lesser than the King of Kings, a budding tyrant sits in the desk.  reactions will always follow