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Author Topic: Assurance of Salvation  (Read 18689 times)

Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: Assutance of Salvation
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2011, 03:44:22 AM »
Quote from: Ed Sutton on April 06, 2011, 10:57:55 AM
If I have no peace it is simply because in my present condition I can not receive peace, untill reconverted.   Conversion is progressive, it is the spiritual translating from the heart language of Satan's character and life,  to the heart language of God's character and life.  Translating starts with a book and works from page 1 toward the conclusion of the book.  In that, conversion is no different - it is an ongoing progressing or retrograding work.


Ed,
Please go back to John 3, and read the entire chapter, and see if what Jesus is saying matches what you are saying.

Jesus uses the term "born again". Changing the language to conversion or reconversion is not helpful, as these are not Biblical terms.

Jesus says "Ye must be born again", not Ye must be converted. The word "conversion" implies a human element to the process.

Being born again means a miraculous birth wrought by God Himself:

 John 1:12,13 is very specific

John 1:12,13:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--------------------
If we are born of God, this goes far beyond the meaning of conversion. A physical human birth happens once. Our new birth wrought by the Spirit of God happens once. But, being born again, God brings us to maturity over a lifetime. Sanctification is a work of a lifetime, but being born again is a one time process. We are  born into His family, and in the whole book of John, Jesus gives us the blessed assurance that we are secure in Him.

Stan
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Larry Lyons

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Re: Assutance of Salvation
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2011, 08:38:12 AM »
Quote from: Soli Deo Gloria on April 07, 2011, 03:44:22 AM
Ed,
Please go back to John 3, and read the entire chapter, and see if what Jesus is saying matches what you are saying.

Jesus uses the term "born again". Changing the language to conversion or reconversion is not helpful, as these are not Biblical terms.

Jesus says "Ye must be born again", not Ye must be converted. The word "conversion" implies a human element to the process.

Being born again means a miraculous birth wrought by God Himself:

 John 1:12,13 is very specific

John 1:12,13:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--------------------
If we are born of God, this goes far beyond the meaning of conversion. A physical human birth happens once. Our new birth wrought by the Spirit of God happens once. But, being born again, God brings us to maturity over a lifetime. Sanctification is a work of a lifetime, but being born again is a one time process. We are  born into His family, and in the whole book of John, Jesus gives us the blessed assurance that we are secure in Him.

Stan
Stan, I agree that God does not treat His people like a yo yo, and removes our names from the book of life each time we have a bad thought, or commit some sinful behavior, and then replaces our names iwhen we repent. Parents do not disown their children every time they misbehave. God is more merciful than human parents.
Sanctification is the process whereby God removes our rough spots so that we may truly represent Him. He does that work as long as we are willing to serve Him and do His will, even though we trip and stumble on the path at times. That is the good news of the Bible and there are a number of very clear EGW quotes that confirm this.
However, that in no way serves as a license or excuse for sin. There will be no place in heaven for those who refuse to give up their favorite sins and idols. To think that we can continue in sin and at last be saved is a fatal presumption.

 Also the word converted and the concept of conversion is certainly biblical and is used by Jesus Himself.

(3) And said, "Verily I say unto you. Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God." (Mt. 18:3) Jesus said that to His disciples who were His most devoted followers and had been with Him for a period of time.
Alsp, Mt 13:15, Mark 14:12, and His famous words to Peter, "and when thou art converted, strengthen the brethren." (Luke 22:32)
There are more places in the NT as well as the OT where the word converted is used.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 10:54:02 AM by Larry Lyons »
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newbie

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2011, 10:50:05 AM »
Assutance of Salvation

def.  the reality of salvation

 :-D
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Larry Lyons

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2011, 10:57:46 AM »
Quote from: newbie on April 07, 2011, 10:50:05 AM
Assutance of Salvation

def.  the reality of salvation

 :-D
Thank you Newbie. If I win the Pulitzer prize for literature, I will share it with you>  :-D
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Ed Sutton

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2011, 05:35:11 PM »
Stan,

Excellent suggestion - I will explore John chapter 3, and dig for my own needs ( which removes mere academia motivations and gets closer and closer to whole heart searching - God pays close atention to anyone searching Him & His things with their whole heart.)

Warnings and promises to give me boundries of heart / mind

Jeremiah 3:10  And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

I can be my own worst enemy like Judah comforting herself upon partial union of heart only.

********************************
promises to consider and explore and trust in enough to venture upon and apply.

Jeremiah 24:7  And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 32:41  Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

Deuteronomy 4:29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Jeremiah 29:13  And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

James 1:
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James 4:
7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9  Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

SOP is a great help to explain concepts to me, before I have time to pontificate inside my own mind and go off on tangents which can easily be wrong, and require painful unlearning , time, energy,  to recover from, then get back into harmony with the revealed testifying of Jesus on whatever matter in question.   

If I spoke Inuit, I would ask the "Eskimo Prophet"  (phonetic sp)  manilich whom Gabriel taught,  if I spoke South American dialects I would ask the Amazon River Chief Gabriel taught,  If I spoke pygmy clicks, whistles, grunts - I would ask the "little bushman" whom Gabriel taught and sent after the "three books that are really nine".     But I only speak english, so I ask Jesus, and He directs me to the english speaking messenger whom Gabriel taught.

( "born again"  anew = 7 SOP hits ) 

( "born again" =   351  SOP Hits )

( conversion    "new birth"   =  5 SOP hits ) 

(  "born again"   "new birth"   = 23 SOP hits ) 

( "this is the new birth"  =  1 SOP hit )
***************************************

Romans 14:5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Jesus sees that I have been damaged such that I need His special helps , that Paul speaks about.

1st Cor 1:
3  Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4  I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5  That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6  Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7  So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8  Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 06:03:17 PM by Ed Sutton »
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Grateful for Psalms 32 and Titus 2:10 While it is true that God gives the message from Scripture and SOP. The taste I give to others about the message sells it or kills it, I learn to walk it well & cook it well & eat it myself, before I preach it.  Then the SDA message appeals by His righteousness.

Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: Assutance of Salvation
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2011, 11:15:59 PM »
Quote from: Larry Lyons on April 07, 2011, 08:38:12 AM

Also the word converted and the concept of conversion is certainly biblical and is used by Jesus Himself.

(3) And said, "Verily I say unto you. Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God." (Mt. 18:3) Jesus said that to His disciples who were His most devoted followers and had been with Him for a period of time.
Alsp, Mt 13:15, Mark 14:12, and His famous words to Peter, "and when thou art converted, strengthen the brethren." (Luke 22:32)
There are more places in the NT as well as the OT where the word converted is used.


Here is what I posted on another thread tonight:

Larry,
Your points are well taken.  :-)  I will admit that the word conversion is in the texts that you mentioned.

Both terms are Biblical, but they mean different things.

Conversion is a general term. Being born of God, or born again, as in John 1:12,13 and John 3 is a very specific term, unique only to Christianity. There can be no genuine conversion to Christ, if God does not do the miraculous work of the new birth. When we are born again as a new babe in Christ, we then start the process of being more completely converted. When Paul was miraculously regenerated on the road to Damascus, he was born into the family of God, but he required a long period of teaching before he became completely converted. This teaching was done by Jesus Himself in the desert of Arabia as Galatians 1 attests.

True conversion will follow the miraculous new birth. I am more completely convinced of the truth of the Bible now than when I was given a new birth in Christ over 28 years ago.

The book of John was written much later than the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The synoptics chronicle some of the specific teachings of Jesus warning the Jews of the impending destruction of Jerusalem.

The emphasis in the book of John is more directed to Christians. That is why I believe it is significant how the first chapter of John gets right to the point of who Jesus is, and in verses 12 and 13 speaks very specific to the new birth:

John 1:12,13:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
-------------
Without this miraculous birth, there can be no genuine conversion.

Then in the entire chapter of John 3, Jesus gets right to the point with Nicodemus about the necessity of the new birth to be in the kingdom. He then spends the rest of the chapter giving very specific teaching about salvation.

One can be converted to any specific ideology. False conversions to Christianity occur when there is no miraculous new birth.

But, I have noticed that some just don't like to use the term "born again". But just because the term has been abused so often doesn't mean that it is not valid, and not Biblical.

Intellectual SDA's of the Graham Maxwell type will not use this term. Most Roman Catholics and mainstream Protestant churches also turn up their noses at using this term. They don't want to be associated with those Bible thumping Baptists who emphasize the necessity of the new birth all the time.

Stan
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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: Assutance of Salvation
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2011, 11:49:37 PM »
Quote from: Larry Lyons on April 07, 2011, 08:38:12 AM
Stan, I agree that God does not treat His people like a yo yo, and removes our names from the book of life each time we have a bad thought, or commit some sinful behavior, and then replaces our names iwhen we repent. Parents do not disown their children every time they misbehave. God is more merciful than human parents.
Sanctification is the process whereby God removes our rough spots so that we may truly represent Him. He does that work as long as we are willing to serve Him and do His will, even though we trip and stumble on the path at times. That is the good news of the Bible and there are a number of very clear EGW quotes that confirm this.
However, that in no way serves as a license or excuse for sin. There will be no place in heaven for those who refuse to give up their favorite sins and idols. To think that we can continue in sin and at last be saved is a fatal presumption.

Larry, I don't think I have ever said that a person who is truly born again will sin with presumption. If he sins, he hates that sin, and comes to God admitting and confessing his sin, not to retain his place in the family, but to restore fellowship with the Father that he sinned against.

The term "adoption" is such a strong term in Romans 8:14-16:

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

----------------------
When we are adopted by God into His family, He intends that relationship to be permanent.  He will make every provision to guarantee that He will preserve us. Yes, it is theoretically possible to walk away from this relationship. If a son becomes rebellious to a point that he is joined to idols, then that relationship will be broken. A human father will also disown a son who reaches a certain point of rebellion.

But when you read passages of scripture such as John 6, and John 10, we have to know that this relationship won't be broken easily.

John 6:37-40:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
---------------------

Notice that it is God's will that everyone who believes in Jesus will have everlasting life.

John 10: 27-30:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30 I and my Father are one.
-----------
Based on the above text, how easy do you think it is for Satan to take one of the sheep away?
Sometimes, I have seen people give Satan more power than God.

The prodigal son wandered a long way from the fold to a far country, but his father did not forsake him. He was brought back into fellowship immediately when he returned, and a big party was thrown in his honor.

Truly born again children can wander a  long way from God, but God will always try to bring his lost sheep home as illustrated by the parable of the lost sheep where there were 99 sheep in the fold, but the Shepherd went out to the rugged hillside to bring back His lost sheep.

These texts are not designed to make us complacent or careless, but to be able to rest in confidence in the care of our Good Shepherd.

Stan
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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2011, 12:05:23 AM »
Quote from: Ed Sutton on March 30, 2011, 09:57:57 AM
It's not God I don't trust,  it's me that I don't trust.   At times my heart and mind .....is not Faith, diligence, virtue, grace, peacefullness, desiring to know God, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, Agape agapous Philio driven .....then the life always follows the affections and desires of the heart and mind ........................... unless it educates it's self to operate on faith instead of feelings.

I apostatized from God in the early to mid 80's and was not brought back till the start of the first Gulf war autumn of 1990.   My candlestick had been removed, just like Solomon's had.  I had been trained at wildwood 1970-72 at Wildwood as a believer and a missionary.  

The apostasy did enormus spiritual damage to me, and less extreme than Nebuchadnezzar's case, only a portion of my mind had been removed.  The part that Biblically (knew) was married to God, because that's what I persistantly  desired and acted on.

Before Wiildwood God in 1970 at my initial baptism upon becoming an SDA Christian believer, had removed Satan's candle from my mind and put His Own there instead.  All my wisdom and links and skills from Satan as a warlock were gone, and like Jordan when the priests carrying the ark - it all stopped like a giant thick metal plate had been put down between my past life and such that went with it as a warlock, and my new life.

Then in the early - mid 80's, I decide to set my affections upon things God's boundries had been protecting me from, and in time started crossing boundries even though now NOT as a warlock.  In time God was forced to fulfill His warning in Revelation .

Revelation 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


Ed,
Thanks for sharing your story above. In light of the parables of the Prodigal Son, and the Lost Sheep, it is very possible that you were truly born again even when you apostatized. Look how far down the road the Prodigal went. However, the Father created a hunger in his heart to come back home. He will work actively to bring back and welcome any lost or wandering sheep home, and doesn't set any conditions on welcoming them back.

None of us can trust ourselves. We must put our trust in the Good Shepherd, who has promised to give us eternal life as in the texts quoted above.

Stan
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Larry Lyons

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Re: Assutance of Salvation
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2011, 09:21:19 AM »
Quote from: Soli Deo Gloria on April 07, 2011, 11:15:59 PM
Here is what I posted on another thread tonight:

Larry,
Your points are well taken.  :-)  I will admit that the word conversion is in the texts that you mentioned.

Both terms are Biblical, but they mean different things.

Conversion is a general term. Being born of God, or born again, as in John 1:12,13 and John 3 is a very specific term, unique only to Christianity. There can be no genuine conversion to Christ, if God does not do the miraculous work of the new birth. When we are born again as a new babe in Christ, we then start the process of being more completely converted. When Paul was miraculously regenerated on the road to Damascus, he was born into the family of God, but he required a long period of teaching before he became completely converted. This teaching was done by Jesus Himself in the desert of Arabia as Galatians 1 attests.

True conversion will follow the miraculous new birth. I am more completely convinced of the truth of the Bible now than when I was given a new birth in Christ over 28 years ago.

The book of John was written much later than the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The synoptics chronicle some of the specific teachings of Jesus warning the Jews of the impending destruction of Jerusalem.

The emphasis in the book of John is more directed to Christians. That is why I believe it is significant how the first chapter of John gets right to the point of who Jesus is, and in verses 12 and 13 speaks very specific to the new birth:

John 1:12,13:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
-------------
Without this miraculous birth, there can be no genuine conversion.

Then in the entire chapter of John 3, Jesus gets right to the point with Nicodemus about the necessity of the new birth to be in the kingdom. He then spends the rest of the chapter giving very specific teaching about salvation.

One can be converted to any specific ideology. False conversions to Christianity occur when there is no miraculous new birth.

But, I have noticed that some just don't like to use the term "born again". But just because the term has been abused so often doesn't mean that it is not valid, and not Biblical.

Intellectual SDA's of the Graham Maxwell type will not use this term. Most Roman Catholics and mainstream Protestant churches also turn up their noses at using this term. They don't want to be associated with those Bible thumping Baptists who emphasize the necessity of the new birth all the time.

Stan
Stan, I whole heartedl;y agree with the term "born again," but the same thing you say about "born again" being abused, also applies to the word "conversion." Just because there are false conversions does not negate its use. Jesus used the word in exactly the same way that he used "born again." What else could the term mean in the Bible? There is no instance in the Bible where a person was said to be falsely "converted." In the case of Simon Magus, he was baptized, but he was not said to be "converted" or "born again."

I understand how you see a difference in the meaning of the terms, I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware, yours is a unique rather than a common view.

In todays usage both of those terms may have different connotations depending on the context and the intention of the speaker or writer. It is acceptable to use either word IMHO.  

BTW, In my earlier post I did not intend to imply that you advocate presumtious sinning.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 09:39:37 AM by Larry Lyons »
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Larry Lyons

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2011, 04:50:08 PM »
Not everyone has the same dramatic experience that many describe as being born again. There are those who have an intense emotional feeling when they take their stand for Christ. The danger is that they may believe that a certain feeling is necessary for the experience to be valid. That belief is promoted by some. Especially in certain denominations. Others have more of an intellectual acceptance of the truth, along with a decision and a determination to follow Jesus as their Savior, based on their faith in His promise that they are adopted into the family of God. They base their standing with God purely on faith rather than a certain feeling that they may or may not have had.
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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2011, 02:30:25 PM »
Quote from: Larry Lyons on April 08, 2011, 04:50:08 PM
Not everyone has the same dramatic experience that many describe as being born again. There are those who have an intense emotional feeling when they take their stand for Christ. The danger is that they may believe that a certain feeling is necessary for the experience to be valid. That belief is promoted by some. Especially in certain denominations. Others have more of an intellectual acceptance of the truth, along with a decision and a determination to follow Jesus as their Savior, based on their faith in His promise that they are adopted into the family of God. They base their standing with God purely on faith rather than a certain feeling that they may or may not have had.

This is very true, Larry. Experience is not proof of anything.

There are some who have always believed that they loved the Lord and have had a heart for him. They can't remember any time they can point to as to when they were born again. It may be while they were very young, in some cases, but you know it when you meet them and talk to them that they are Christians.

There is something special when you go about interacting with people on a daily basis, on how one can recognize a person that is born again, and a true Christian. There is just something about the love of Christ that shines through.

You can tell it sometimes by reading a person's posting on the internet for any length of time. You can tell whether they have a genuine heart for God, and show the fruit of the Spirit when they write. I am not saying you can judge in all cases, but in general I think its true.

Of course, only God knows for sure if a person is truly born again and one of His sheep.

Stan
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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2011, 01:59:27 PM »
Does the Bible promise that we can have assurance of salvation now? Is it presumptuous to be able to say that we are saved?

Most Roman Catholics I interact with say that a person cannot be sure they are saved. They will say something like "I hope so".

The book of 1 John was written specifically for the purpose of giving us guidelines by which we can know that we have eternal life.

1 John 5:11-13:

 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
-----------------
Is this not definite proof that we can know if we are saved or not? And if not, why not?

"He that hath the Son hath life"  This is written in the present tense. "that ye have eternal life" is also present tense

This is very strong evidence.

Then in Ephesians 1 (the entire chapter), but in verse 7: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace"  Again the present tense.

And again the very testimony of Jesus in His own words in John 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
------------
Again, the present tense is evident in Jesus' statement. Jesus words would have no meaning if we could not now have that assurance by believing and trusting in Him.

Of course Jesus and John both make it plain that if we are truly born again, and have a genuine belief in the Son, then we will keep His commandments and love our neighbors as a result of that salvation, but at no time are we left to doubt God's promises that we have eternal life.

Stan
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GraceVessel

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2011, 05:34:00 PM »
I am saved because of who I know... not what I do.
What motivates what I do ...determines what relationships I honor and cherish.

Having a saving knowledge of Jesus dying in my behalf, and the efficacies of His grace, opens to me a newer and deeper appreciation of His character...
Not mine..
My being vulnerable, allows Jesus to write His laws on my heart.  I don't hold the pen... and I dont keep my own law. He keeps it in me.

Since I trust in His merits, I partake of His marvelous grace.  I choose to follow the commands of Jesus which include the Ten Commandments along with the true spirit of the law.

Born again, means... simply giving my heart ... being vulnerable. Conversion, is the process of being born again... but they are not the same thing. My conversion towards a deeper and deeper walk with God ...
it's transitive.  I am only born again once... the conversion to a deeper and deeper walk is continous and the part of sanctification that I have a choice in making myself vulnerable ... for His leading.

This is my understanding of the true gospel.  The truth keeps me... i dont "keep" the truth...although I abide in it... because my complete trust is in Jesus.

with kind regards,


Gracevessel
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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2011, 02:16:45 AM »
Adventist Today has a brand new article by Melissa Howell about this topic of assurance, and how SDA's view this at this link:

http://www.atoday.com/content/still-wondering-whether-we
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 02:21:49 AM by Soli Deo Gloria »
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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: Assurance of Salvation
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2011, 02:24:13 AM »
Let me try that link again, as the one in the above post doesn't work:

http://www.atoday.com/content/still-wondering-whether-we
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 02:25:33 AM by Soli Deo Gloria »
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