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[Soli Deo Gloria]

Compare the statement "The Dao follows His own way" with "I AM WHO I AM", in Exodus 3:14,15. Both of these statements indicate there is none higher than themselves. Dao and I AM are the highest standard, following their own will and law. Both mean the same: the "Self-existent Law-Maker." So we can see from the above statements by Lao Zi and Moses that The Dao is indeed the Creator of everything! The Dao in the ancient Chinese Classics is identical with the Godhead of the Bible!

Now how did the Dao create everything?

Heaven and earth have been created from something. Something has come from nothing.
--Ibid., Ch. 40., p. 42.
Compare that one with the statement of Paul in Hebrews 11:3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible

[Sammy Lee]

Welcome Sammy Lee to the forum.

You do present some very interesting insights into the Chinese "prophets".

Do you believe Confucius was a believer in the true God of the Bible?  

You do make some excellent points. However, we do have to be cautious about some of our conclusions.

God does draw people to Himself in many marvelous ways.

Cornelius is an excellent example  of what you may be referring to.

Acts 10 is very much worth reading:

1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

 2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

 3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
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There have been many interesting reports of Muslims who have been converted to Christianity because God came to them in vision in the person of Christ. This would be similar to Cornelius' vision.

However, I do have a problem when William Johnsson, former editor of the Review, is quoted in the same magazine saying that Muslims worship the same god as Christians.

Yes, God draws people from many different cultures in many remarkable ways. But they are not true believers in the God of the Bible until they are born again of the Spirit of God, and are trusting in Christ alone for their salvation.

The true God of the Bible has manifested Himself as one God in three persons. The only way to know this true God is to come to faith in Christ.

Jesus said in John 14:6:

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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I would appreciate any further clarification on this with regard to Confucius or Dao.

Stan


Thanks for your remarks about Confucius and Laozi.
What about the statement of Jesus that there will be people from the east and west who will it together with Abraham in the kingdom of heaven?  If you have studied the sayings of Confucius and Laozi and studied their lives, you will see that there can be no other explanation than that they were speaking about Jesus Christ the Messiah, Who was also the Desire of All the Nations throughout the Ages which they did not recognize by name.
The writings of Confucius and Laozi have been part of the reasons there are so many Chinese being converted into Christianity today in China.
Listen to this description of the Holy Man by Confucius:

"How great is the Way of the Holy Man! Like over-flowing water, it sends forth and nourishes all things and rises up to the height of heaven. All complete is its greatness! It embraces the three hundred rules of ceremony, and the three thousand rules of royal behaviour. It waits for the Proper
Man, and then it is fulfilled." -- The Doctrine of the Mean, Ch. XXVII, p. 422.

Compare it with Hosea 8:12  I have written for him the great things of My law, but they were considered a strange thing.;
Isaiah 42:21  The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness

[newbie]

Sammy Lee,
Do you know of any Chinese prophets in the mid-1800s in remote areas of China? 

[Sammy Lee]

Do you know of any Chinese prophets in the mid-1800s in remote areas of China? 
[/quote]

Sorry, I don't know any of that category.  I only know the Chinese consider three names as Jian Shi or prophets, or holy men, and they are Laozi, Confucius, and Mencius,  They all lived in the 600's, 500's and 300's BC respectively.
Here are a few more prophecies of Laozi about Christ:  to be established as the emperor, with
three officers installed, And be presented with a gift of gems and a team of horses,  Is not as good as to sit in Dao.  Why did the ancient Masters esteem the Dao so much?
Because, being one with the Dao,
When you seek, you find;
When you commit a sin, you can be forgiven.
That is why everybody loves the Dao.
--Gia Fu Feng and Jane English, Ch. 62, p. 64.


Compare it with Matthew 6:33 

[Larry Lyons]

Sammy, how widespread is the knowlege of these ancient teachings among the Chinese people?

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Sammy,

I have had a chance to do some research into what you are claiming about Confucius.

I must disagree with you that there is any real basic similarity to Confucius and the true God of the Bible.

Ethical and moral systems with ethical codes of conduct are well and good in themselves, but do not mean that these religious systems are rooted in basic Biblical truth.

It is even possible that the good moral beliefs of Confucius may have given a foundation for Christianity when the true gospel came along later, but this does not mean that Confucius believed in the God of the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit that opened the hearts of the Chinese people to believe and not Confucius..

Here is a good article by an evangelical scholar comparing Confucianism and Christianity:

http://www.greatdreams.com/masters/Confucius.htm

First of all, he did not follow his own teachings with regard to family:   At twenty, he married but soon divorced his wife and had an aloof relationship with his son and daughter.

He and his disciples such as Mencius believed that the nature of man was basically good. This is a direct contradiction to the following scriptures:

 Isaiah 64:6:

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


Romans 3:10-12:
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Mark 7:21-23  Jesus said
21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

 22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

 23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
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It is clear from the above scriptures that man is not basically good.

Here is an excerpt from the above linked article:

There is much to appreciate regarding the life and teachings of Confucius. Christians would agree on several points with his philosophy of ethics, government, and social conduct. However, there are some major differences between Christianity and Confucian thought, which we will investigate in the following sections.

 He can be categorized as an agnostic who believed in spirits and the supernatural but was not interested in them. He was humanistic and rationalistic in his outlook. "His position on matters of faith was this: whatever seemed contrary to common sense in popular tradition and whatever did not serve any discoverable social purpose, he regarded coldly."{1} The answer to the cultural and social problems was found in humanity itself, not in anything supernatural.


In the Confucian system, a divine being does not have a significant role; his philosophy is man-centered and relies on self-effort. Man is sufficient to attain the ideal character through education, self-effort, and self-reflection. The goal of life was to live a good moral life. After his death, Confucianism evolved, combining with Chinese traditional religions and Buddhism to add a spiritual component.


In contrast, Christianity is God-centered. It is built on a relationship with a personal God who is involved in the world. Confucius focused on life here on this earth. Jesus focused on life in eternity. For Jesus what happens in eternity has ramifications for life here on earth. In Matthew 6:19 Jesus stated, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasure in heaven where moth and rust do not destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal." Here we see the basically different perspectives of Jesus and Confucius.


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I don't see any credible resemblance of Confucius to the God of the Bible. He certainly does not compare well to Cornelius in Acts 10.

I have no anti- Chinese bias. My wife's maiden name is also Lee, and she comes from a large Chinese family.

Stan

[Larry Lyons]

Stan, after rading through the posts, I am wonbdering that even though what you say mey be true, it may also be true that, as Sammy has pointed out, the messages in the ancient Chinese writings to the Genesis account and the suggestion of a holy being that is to come may act as bridges between the gospel and Chinese people.

I have heard the testimony of Adventist ministers, one is a layman actually,  who have established close friendship relations with Muslims. They say that there are passages in the Koran that act as bridges for Muslims to look favorably on the gospel and the significance of Jesus Christ. I believe that there will be multitudes from China, India, and Islam who will accept the Gospel as the return of Jesus approaches. There is an intriguing verse in Daniel 11 that has been suggested as applicable to these nations and people.

(41) He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. (Daniel 11:41)  

Most scholars agree that this passage applies to the end time struggle between the king of the north and the king of the south, the identities of which have been discussed elsewhere. It has been suggested that Edom, Moab and Ammon represent people in those nations in the middle east that are now primarily Muslim, who will not be overcome by the king of the north and who will accept the 3 angels message of Rev. 14 and will not receive the mark of the beast.  

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Stan, after rading through the posts, I am wonbdering that even though what you say mey be true, it may also be true that, as Sammy has pointed out, the messages in the ancient Chinese writings to the Genesis account and the suggestion of a holy being that is to come may act as bridges between the gospel and Chinese people.

I have heard the testimony of Adventist ministers, one is a layman actually,  who have established close friendship relations with Muslims. They say that there are passages in the Koran that act as bridges for Muslims to look favorably on the gospel and the significance of Jesus Christ. I believe that there will be multitudes from China, India, and Islam who will accept the Gospel as the return of Jesus approaches. There is an intriguing verse in Daniel 11 that has been suggested as applicable to these nations and people.

(41) He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. (Daniel 11:41)  

Most scholars agree that this passage applies to the end time struggle between the king of the north and the king of the south, the identities of which have been discussed elsewhere. It has been suggested that Edom, Moab and Ammon represent people in those nations in the middle east that are now primarily Muslim, who will not be overcome by the king of the north and who will accept the 3 angels message of Rev. 14 and will not receive the mark of the beast.  

I agree Larry, and I think I did say in my post that there may be useful things from Confuscius to plant seeds for the gospel. I agree that there can be bridge building by quoting from these writings. Paul, in his Mars Hill sermon in Athens also quoted from Greek writings to build bridges.

 However, my point was that the writings of Confuscius (this also goes for Islam) in their basic philosophy are incompatible with the true gospel of Christianity. If Confuscius says that man is basically good, then we don't need a personal savior from sin. It is even questionable whether Confuscius believed in a personal God.

Christianity affirms that the natural man is basically evil, and this is why we need a Savior. Confuscius will cause confusion with the basics of the gospel.

There can be a dangerous trend towards syncretism, where it is affirmed that basically most of the world's religions lead to God.

Robert Schuller is one who is teaching these kinds of things, and he has recently gone to China to affirm the teachings of Confuscius and others.

I think Sammi Lee has done some good research, and maybe he can clarify some of these questions I have further.

Stan

[miniledua]

Hi everyone! This is a re-post of the lost post we made two or three days ago when we joined this forum.

 My wife & I are lifelong SDA's. We are retired & live on a small acreage in northwestern Oregon. We are now able to spend more of our time in study of the Bible & the writings of EGW. We love E-sword, which is free & a great tool for Bible study. We also love the new EGW CD -- which can be purchased at your ABC for as low as $15. We have a 3ABN satellite dish & wish everyone had access to 3ABN. As we have had more time for personal study we have seen the need for more active personal witnessing as well as bringing our own lives into harmony with God's instructions in His Word. We believe that obedience to God's word is a necessary, but cutting process & can only be done through Divine power & union with Christ! It involves making wrongs right as much as one is able to do so. We believe we are living in the "Day of Atonement" & we need to search our hearts & be sure that we are right with God. In the last two or three years a family member has gotten deeply involved in the teachings of  what some call "the character of God movement", Tim Jennings, Maxwell, & others. This has caused us to do much study on the Plan of Redemption, the Sanctuary, & the Atonement. We came across the discussion (on this forum) of the Atonement & have found it very interesting. The link to the article in Ministry magazine on the Moral Influence Theory we found very helpful. Thank you Stan for posting it. We appreciate the spirit we see on this forum. Pastor O'Ffill, we have seen you on 3ABN & feel like we know & appreciate you, though you don't know us. We look forward to joining the discussions at some point.

[miniledua]

bula everyone, My name is aminio ledua..my friends call me mini..im a seventh Day Adventist, i was just converted last year and ive come to love the Lord Jesus.
my life has never been the same since then, ive gone through alot and im learnig alot about how God opperates and He wants us all to be prepared. not only have i come to know about the doctrines of THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH, but ive come to read inspired writtings from Ellen White..i love her books and im preparing myself for missionary service in my small area. i want to share what the Lord has done for me through mission work..




Godbless...

[Larry Lyons]

Bula Miniledua. Welcome to the forum!! I take it you are from Fiji. I know a number of Fijian Seventh-day Adventists. They are wonderful people. Very warm and friendly, and devout Christians. Do you live in Fiji? My son lived on Taveuni for awhile. Most of the Fijians I know are in the US, but there is a lot of back and forth travel. I trust you will find this a congenial place for friendly discussions. Feel free to join in any discussion, or start a new topic if you like.

Again, welcome!!

Larry