The Atonement -- What is it all about?

[ejclark]

God's love is  personal and focused. Jennings' theory of God's love as a "natural law" would seem to make it an impersonal force, like gravity to which he compared it. God's love not an impersonal force.  His 10 Commandment law is an expression of His Character and His love and it is the covenant between God and every individual who is willing to enter into the covenant with Him.  The covenant was guaranteed by God's gift of His son to die in place of each of us, for our sins.

Reminds me of what Walter Veith says about the Catholic Church and how they promote "Nature Law".  He shows the connection with those promoting "Going Green".  It's been a while since I've watched it, so the details are fuzzy.  I know you've watched at least part of the Rekindling the Reformation so maybe you might remember better than I.

[Larry Lyons]

Reminds me of what Walter Veith says about the Catholic Church and how they promote "Nature Law".  He shows the connection with those promoting "Going Green".  It's been a while since I've watched it, so the details are fuzzy.  I know you've watched at least part of the Rekindling the Reformation so maybe you might remember better than I.

Yes, the Catholic church uses the idea of "natural law" in some of their theological statements having to do with economics and politics. I recall that Walter Veith shows in certain of his presentations, one position of the Catholic church is that according to "natural law" individuals do not really own goods or property, therefore goods and property can be lawfully and guiltlessly appropriated by a person in need, even if it is by stealth or force. Thats quite a doctrine!! There are other ways they use the term but I don't recall what they are off hand. Walter Veith quotes John Robbins' book "Ecclesiastical Megalomania" The Economic and Political Thought of the Roman Catholic Church. I think that a lot of that information is in that book. 

[Soli Deo Gloria]

If we lose the doctrine of the substitutionary atonement and instead adopt the Maxwell model of the gospel, then, not only do we have another gospel, but we lose our great Christian hymn heritage.

Here is a classic by Isaac Watts:

Alas! and Did My Savior Bleed

Alas! and did my Savior bleed,
and did my Sov

[Larry Lyons]

Stan, I love to sing that song. You left out the chorus, which may not have been in Isaac Watts' original words.

At the cross, at the cross
where I first saw the light
And the burdens of my heart rolled away
It was there by faith I received my sight
And now I am happy all the day.

There are a number of variants to that hymn. There are 2 in "The Sacred Harp" which was published in 1844. Neither of them have this chorus and each of the melodies are different.

[restoretruth]

Good point about the gospel, Stan. I also appreciate your other comments. I, too, love the hymns regarding Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross. Some of the old "Steps to Christ" books had some of these gospel songs at the end of each chapter. As a young adult, finding my way back to Christ, the words of these songs were a compelling influence on my life! Christ said, " And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32) The cross is at the center of the gospel! The "larger view" of Maxwell & others redefines the entire gospel, takes the focus from Christ's shed blood, & makes these songs more or less meaningless.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Stan, I love to sing that song. You left out the chorus, which may not have been in Isaac Watts' original words.

At the cross, at the cross
where I first saw the light
And the burdens of my heart rolled away
It was there by faith I received my sight
And now I am happy all the day.

There are a number of variants to that hymn. There are 2 in "The Sacred Harp" which was published in 1844. Neither of them have this chorus and each of the melodies are different.

Larry,
Yes, the chorus was not included in the original hymn, and was probably not written by Watts.

Here is a biography and list of all the hymns Isaac Watts wrote:

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/w/a/t/watts_i.htm
----------------------

Restoretruth,
Thanks for your encouraging comments, and I also appreciate your contributions to this topic.

Stan

[Soli Deo Gloria]

One other important point about isaac Watts. He was also a prolific writer and theologian. Early in his career, he was adamant about the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell. But after much study, he later reversed himself on this doctrine, and taught the final punishment and annihilation of the wicked.

Stan

[restoretruth]

Someone's lost post -- re-posted below.
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Can it be made any simpler than this?

   "What a contrast the second Adam presented as He entered the gloomy wilderness to cope with Satan single-handed. Since the fall, the race had been decreasing in size and physical strength, and sinking lower in the scale of moral worth, up to the period of Christ's advent to the earth. In order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was. He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He who knew no sin became sin for us. He humiliated Himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that He might be qualified to reach man and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him." Confrontation, pp. 32, 33. (This is the 1971 title for the EGW book published in 1878 by another title which I do not recall at this time.)

As I have studied this topic afresh with the faith of Jesus as my perspective, this wonderful plan of Salvation specifically glorifies God in that Jesus was made to be sin, became sin for us. He was made sin for us from His birth, and not merely a comparatively short time in the Garden of Gethsemane or on the the cross.
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Someone made the above post just before the web site went down. I had copied the post, but lost the name & thought it important for discussion. Now I have no idea who sent it, except that it was not posted in this topic.I have taken the liberty to re-post it above just as it was originally posted. I will post my own response a little later, except to say this EGW statement goes to the heart of Tim Jennings teaching of the nature of sin which Christ bore for us!  What do you think?

restoretruth

[restoretruth]

DID JESUS BEAR OUR SINS FROM HIS BIRTH?


"He (Christ) took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He who knew no sin became sin for us. He humiliated Himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that He might be qualified to reach man and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him." (Confrontation, pp. 32, 33)


This may be a shock to some (it was to us), but HSM (Healing, Substitution Model of Salvation) teaches that the sin that Christ bore for us was our sinful human nature only! That is, SIN is redefined as the condition of fallen human nature. It is "the infirmities and degeneracy of the race"; it is "the degradation in which sin had plunged him"(man). Sin is sickness & disease. When Christ took on fallen human nature He bore our "sin", which, in their view is the infirmities and degeneracy, the sickness & disease of our human nature. Sin is not defined as a choice! It is defined as a condition!

The following quotations are from Tim Jennings:

Jesus became our substitute in that He took our

[restoretruth]

 

CONFESSION!

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We intended to add this to our last post but got 'busted" for it being too long! We were just going to leave this off, but then decided we want people to know where we are coming from! We have become alarmed at the HSM (Healing, Substitution Model of Salvation) teachings & believe they are a threat to the salvation of those involved in it! Besides redefining sin, HSM redefines the gospel, the atonement, the judgment, the sanctuary, Christ's mediatorial work, the wrath of God, & more. Please consider these statements:

"...the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God, but it is degraded to a weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil. God's justice, His denunciations of sin, the requirements of His holy law, are all kept out of sight.

[Ed Sutton]

Atonement involves redeeming the redeemable,  and removing the unredeemable's threat to the redeemed.

cutting across the obedience of the legislation by disobeying the terms of the legislation

trans (cutting across across)  gression (obeying )   legislation (law )

sin is > trans (cutting across across)  gression (obeying )   legislation (law )

John 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
1 Corinthians 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 John 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

sinfulness = the spiritual image of Satan + the ablility to decay and die produced by the damage sin has done + the ability and willingness to obey Satan and disobey God + the defilement of the character, mind, conscience that sin causes

The power enforcing death is the law,  but the condition of death is the defilement of indwelling sin and not having the life from God implanted and remaining within.

1 John 3:4  Whosoever committeth <4160> sin transgresseth <4160> (5719) <458> <0> also the law <458>: for sin is the transgression of the law <458>.

4160 poiew poieo poy-eh

[restoretruth]

"The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement. " {PP 357.5}
 
Some questions to ponder & perhaps reply to:

What happens to our sins when we, by faith in Christ's shed blood, come to Him & ask forgiveness?
How does God deal with our sins?
How does God deal with the sinner?
How can God be just & forgive the sinner?
Is Christ's shed blood even necessary for God to be able to forgive?
How important is it for us to understand Christ's work of atonement in the sanctuary in heaven?

[newbie]

"The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement. " {PP 357.5}
 
Some questions to ponder & perhaps reply to:
What happens to our sins when we, by faith in Christ's shed blood, come to Him & ask forgiveness?
How does God deal with our sins?
How does God deal with the sinner?

Job.14
1.   [17] My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

Pss.103
1.   [12] As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Micah 7:
[19] He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Dan.9
1.    [24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

[restoretruth]

Job.14
1.   [17] My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

Pss.103
1.   [12] As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Micah 7:
[19] He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Dan.9
1.    [24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Yes, When we confessed our sins, Christ took the condemnation of the law, our penalty upon Himself, and He bore our guilt! We stand before Him as if we had never sinned. But, if God has forgiven our sins -- cast them into the depths of the sea -- why is He keeping the record of our sins? This is troubling to some & they don't see why God is still dealing with sin in the sanctuary, when Christ has already paid the penalty.

[restoretruth]

Larry's cat came back after 16 days!  And he fed it!  But, what happens if our sins keep coming back because we keep feeding them?  Do we just keep sinning & God keeps forgiving?  What happens if probation closes & we are still sinning? What provisions has God made so this won't happen to us?