The Atonement -- What is it all about?

[newbie]

I don't think anyone is denying that the cross put an end to Satan's works....

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Slingshot wrote:
Well Stan, I am not sure quite what to say....The Bible is pretty clear that God's wrath is letting us go. Romans 1, Romans 4 and Jesus on the cross all make this very clear. In spite of this, you continue to use references to "wrath" to refer to punishment.

A better approach more consistent with Romans is to understand this text that unrepentant sinners are children of wrath in that if they do not repent God will let them go. You are entitled to your own opinion, of course, but if you are going to simply ignore the Biblical definition of God's wrath, I'm not sure quite what to say.
---------------------------

Well Slingshot, I am not sure what to say either. I simply won't accept your premise about God's wrath being minimized to simply letting people go passively. You have taken only a few verses, and ignored many other texts which talk about God actively executing His wrath as punishment. Several of these verses are posted above. You choose to hang your hat on Romans 1 because you can make it fit your idea of what God should be like. You have ignored a multitude of texts that I posted earlier that clearly shows that God actively punishes disobedience. You are using what is called eisegesis  which is reading your ideas into the text rather than exegesis. (see this link)

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis

There are many people with itching ears just wanting to hear a message that they will not have to face an active wrath or punishment of God on judgment day. This is truly good news to people who want to reject God and live how they want in freedom from any fear of God or punishment.

I think many of us on this board are still waiting to hear what your concept of final punishment of the wicked is. Maybe you will be able to correct my misconceptions of your view.

Stan

[Robert Parker]

I don't think anyone is denying that the cross put an end to Satan's works....

What, exactly, do you mean Newbie? Seems to me that Satan is pretty active still. I would say that the the event on the cross made manifest the lies of Satan and that he is a defeated foe but not yet dead.

[Robert Parker]

Concerning the "sword" that is mentioned, it is true that God often has used the armies of Iraael's adversaries to punish them.  But in the covenents and curses that were presented to Israel from God through Moses, God identifies the "sword, famine., pestilence and wild beasts as His acts of punishment should Israel apostasy. Those who say God never kills will say that it is God simply letting things run their course without His protection which Israel forfeited by their frequent apostasies. However, there are also occurences of angels with threatening swords such as the incident with Baalam and the donkey. God is in control regardless of what happens or how it happens. God is not passive. 

Absolutely Larry! However, I would agree that most of the time we bring wrath upon ourselves through our disobedience. If we drink poison we will suffer death without God directly intervening.

[Robert Parker]

Robert,
If you look back another post or 2, you will see that I was talking about the people that were killed in the flood and at Sodom. They were killed by God.

Stan

Amen! Thanks for the clarification Stan. I have not yet learned just how to follow all of these threads.

[Robert Parker]

Robert, it is true that we become changed by the sacrifice of God, but it is also true that God is propitiated by the sacrifice of Christ.

I agree with you doctor Stan. It is just that I see it more of a change of ACTION by God rather than a change of attitude. We have the choice of which action we make possible for God to exercise toward us and still maintain His justice. I appreciate your thoughts. I am very slowly getting the hang of this forum. It is a bit different from the others I am on.

Robert

[Robert Parker]

You can't be serious.  The omniscient One faced with a dilemma?  He knows the end from the beginning.  A dilemma is something for which one is not prepared, and for which one is unsure of the best solution.  God is always prepared for any eventuality, since He knows the end from the beginning.  He is never unsure of anything.

That seems mighty reasonable. What is termed a dilemma for God is already solved as it arises. And it arises before it happens and thus it is solved before it happens. That is why the plan of salvation was always in place from eternity. Hard for our finite minds to comprehend.

[newbie]

What, exactly, do you mean Newbie? Seems to me that Satan is pretty active still. I would say that the the event on the cross made manifest the lies of Satan and that he is a defeated foe but not yet dead.

yes, but he hath but a short time.... he is a dead Satan walking on the earth

[Deborah Risinger]

WOW !  I must say.........as I heard Pastor Charlie White say, at a retreat out in California, as a new SDA...KISS  "keep it simple stupid"  hhhe eeeheee

I am afraid this thread is making my brain work real hard...I don't pay it enough for this.... 

I think I am following okay...however, there can be pitfalls for our brains here.  I see the differences in thought processes.........."let each be fully convinced in his own mind."

I am not trying to minimize the importance however......my thoughts on "The Father's" attitude toward sinners "before" Christ's sacrifice on our behalf....

In the Christian community, there is the thought that The Father and Jesus are "different."  That God the Father is violent, aloof, angry, vengeful......yet, when we come to meek and mild Jesus, Who stands between us the His angry Father...to "protect us" from getting hurt. Our attitude toward this is what  determines what we really think.  It becomes a "premise" upon which we evaluate the great things needing understanding.   

To explain Biblical Truth concerning God the Father and Jesus ...the same..................."the same" language can be used yet leave a different impression.


Jesus was clear "If you have seen me, you have seen My Father."  To have Jesus "is to have eternal life"  To have Jesus is to have access to the Father's Throne.....

God's wrath is frightful.....it is "that wrath" that stirred Him (the Trinity) to give Himself for our salvation.

Is it not reasonable for The Father to be angry over rape, murder, abuse of all kinds? If it doesn't bother us, what kind of people would we be? 

One other thought;

"Justice" demands a sacrifice........"Justice" has been satisfied and we are free......Amen, Amen, Amen.

He is a beautiful Person.

God's Blessings'
Deborah

[newbie]

I agree Deborah... you are very close...

[Robert Parker]

Deborah WOW !  I must say.........as I heard Pastor Charlie White say, at a retreat out in California, as a new SDA...KISS 

Robert NEW SDA's Deborah? What's wrong with OLD SDA's (85 years) giving their wives a kiss--not only in order to have a happy marriage, but in order to repair any breeches.

Appreciate the rest of your thoughts in this post.

Robert

[Deborah Risinger]

 

 

[Soli Deo Gloria]

I will make my post on the destruction of the wicked as soon as I am able.

Slingshot,
I am still hoping to read your clarification on this point

Thanks

Stan

[newbie]

Slingshot,
I am still hoping to read your clarification on this point

Thanks

Stan

me too     when you are able... I know you are busy 

[Slingshot]

Slingshot,
I am still hoping to read your clarification on this point

Thanks

Stan

Hi Stan & Newbie:

I'm trying. In the last fifteen working days, I've been up at 3 a.m. for work four times. This weekend I spent twenty hours driving to a graduation. I am still exhausted today.

I will get to it as soon as I can.

Thanks again for your patience.