When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?

[Raven]

I feel that, when we are talking to anyone about Justification we should always link it with sanctification just to make sure we do not give anyone the wrong impression. I want to make an observation here and I pray that folk will understand what I am saying. Justification does"make righteous in the sense that it never comes without sanctification; it is utterly impossible to have one without the other. Justification and Sanctification are married[/i and God's law does not allow for divorce: "(Mat 19:6)  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

Robert

Well stated, Robert.  It is like faith and works.  They are never independent of each other.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

I think it is worth reviewing the quiz Larry posted on 12/15/08 and then the right answers as posted by Newbie;

http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=2840.0

The subject of justification was the main issue over Martin Luther's separation from Rome and fueled the Protestant Reformation.  It was also the main point that was agreed upon in recent years that brought the Lutheran Church and the Roman Catholic Church back into agreement.

 The following questions have to do with Justification. How would you answer?


                             QUESTIONS ON JUSTIFICATION

1. (a) God gives man right standing with Himself by mercifully accounting him innocent and virtuous.
    (b) God gives man right standing with Himself by actually making him into an innocent and
          virtuous person.
2. (a) God gives a man right standing with Himself by placing Christ's goodness and virtue to his
         credit.
3. (a) God accepts the believer because of the moral excellence found in Christ Jesus.
    (b) God makes the believer acceptable by infusing Christ's moral excellence into his life.
4. (a) If a Christian becomes "born again," (regenerate, transformed in character), he will achieve
         right standing with God.
    (b) If the sinner accepts right standing with God by faith, he will then experience transformation
         of character.
5. (a) We receive right standing with God by faith alone.
    (b) We receive right standing with God by faith which has become active by love.
6. (a) We achieve right standing with God by having Christ live out His life of obedience in us.
    (b) We achieve right standing with God by accepting the fact that He obeyed the law perfectly
          for us.
7. (a) We achieve right standing with God by following Christ's example by the help of His enabling
         grace.
    (b) We follow Christ's example because His life has given us right standing with God.
8. (a) God first pronounces us Good in His sight, then gives us His Spirit to make us good.
    (b) God sends His Spirit to make us good, and then He will pronounce that we are good.
9. (a) Christ's intercession at God's right hand gives us favor in the sight of God.
    (b) It is the indwelling Christ that gives us favor in the sight of God.
10. (a) Only by faith in the doing and dying of Christ can we fully satisfy the claims of the Ten
           Commandments.
      (b) By the power of the Holy Spirit living in us, we can fully satisfy the claims of the
           Ten Commandments.
------------------------

Here are Newbie's correct answers and they are also highlighted above

1.a
2. I noticed that number 2 only had one choice so that would be (a)  a freebee
3. a
4. b
5. a
6. b
7. b
8. a
9. a
10. a

----------------------

Robert,

Do you agree with the answers to the quiz?

Because, I am interpreting some of your statements to be closer to the RCC position than the Protestant position.

Stan

[Robert Parker]

Stan, I thought I had made my position clear in my last couple of posts. Larry seems to have understood me OK. Quizzes like the one you have presented here are sometimes a trap as they are require an either or answer. There is need to clarify one's view, sometimes with a detailed explanation. As Sabbath is about to arrive I do not have time to go further into this at the moment but I will endeavor to do the quizz with some consideration as to how I will answer. There is a lot of misunderstanding as to just what Luther taught and what the Roman Catholic position really is. All this i will deal with when I get more time.

Robert

[Larry Lyons]

Each of those questions could be discussed in detail. As Robert suggested, questionaires can be limiting. For number 6, for example, the answer to the question is (b). "We achieve right standing with God by accepting the fact that He obeyed the law perfectly for us."
Unfortunately, many Evangelicals make the claim that since that is true, we are thus relieved of any obligation to keep the law ourselves and that God's Law has no relevance for Christians. That is a deadly deception.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Each of those questions could be discussed in detail. As Robert suggested, questionaires can be limiting. For number 6, for example, the answer to the question is (b). "We achieve right standing with God by accepting the fact that He obeyed the law perfectly for us."
Unfortunately, many Evangelicals make the claim that since that is true, we are thus relieved of any obligation to keep the law ourselves and that God's Law has no relevance for Christians. That is a deadly deception.

Agreed Larry.  Martin Luther, however clarified the clear differences between Justification and Sanctification which the RCC had blurred for centuries.  He said that we are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone. Justification is an objective righteousness that makes us fit for heaven as soon as we receive it by faith. But because we are justified and have been given a new nature through the new birth, then the Holy Spirit will continue a work of sanctification for a lifetime. But the key point is that we don't get into heaven by our sanctification or by achieving a certain degree of sanctification. It is only the perfect righteousness of Christ that makes us fit for heaven.

Anyone who perverts this gospel and says that we don't have to obey God or live a holy life has not seen the cross. The obedience follows as a result of being born again.

But how could we have peace with God if we are always worried about whether we have obtained a degree of sanctification that will make us fit for heaven?

Here is a repeat of what I posted on the previous page with regard to this:

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
-----------------------------
Notice again as in 1 John 5, the verbs are all in the present tense. We have this hope and assurance now!  Being now justified by his blood...we have now received the atonement.

Those who are truly justified and born again will bear the fruit of this new birth and will be the proof that we are saved, but the fruit is never the root of salvation.
------------------------------------

It is only the absolutely perfect righteousness of Christ (imputed righteousness) that will get us into heaven, and none of us will be able to reach the level of perfection in this life that Christ attained. There is none of us that obeys perfectly in everything.

This was Luther's message and the RCC at the Council of Trent pronounced ANATHEMA on Luther and the Reformers in no uncertain terms for believing in this doctrine of imputation and justification by faith alone, and I would like to quote from the RCC in the next post.

Stan

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Here are some of the RCC pronouncements against Luther and these pronouncements have never been retracted:

CANON 9:  "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
(Anathema means the very strongest curse to damn someone to hell)

What does the Bible say?

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin," (Rom. 3:20).

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).

"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8,9)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost," (Titus 3:5).
---------------------

CANON 12:  "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

What does the Bible say?

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name," (John 1:12).

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28)
.
'For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).

"Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the peoples: for this he did once, when he offered up himself," (Heb. 7:25-27).

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day," (2 Tim. 1:12).
--------------------

Canon 24:  "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."
----------------------

Luther would reply with the following scriptures:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law," (Gal. 5:1-3).
------------------------
It is very instructive to read Luther's Commentary on the book of Galatians. Everything the RCC teaches on this subject contradicts the clear teaching of scripture.

You can read the rest of the Canons on Justification that Rome teaches at this link:

http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/council-trent-canons-justification
----------------------

Stan

[newbie]

Oh yeah.... don't get me started   

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Oh yeah.... don't get me started   

Newbie,

Would you like to elaborate on this?  I'm not sure what you meant by this statement. It seems that there is a hint of either sarcasm or dismay by what was posted previously. I'd like to get your thoughts. This is a very important topic, and it would be great to have as many as possible contribute to the dialogue. I am sure you have a lot to contribute. You were the one that got all the quiz questions correct.

Stan

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Here are some Ellen White quotes that are very good with regard to justification:

"We have been at work on the law until we become as dry as the hills of Gilboah, without dew or rain. Let the law take care of itself. Let us trust in the merits of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. May God help us that our eyes may be anointed with eyesalve that we may see." E.G. White, 1888 Materials, Vol.2, p.557

"We are accepted through Christ's merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merits of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.5, p.1122.

"The present message--justification by faith--is a message from God; it bears the divine credentials, for its fruit is unto holiness." E.G. White, The Review and Herald, Sept.3, 1889.

"Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross. This is your only plea."

"There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ." Testimonies to Ministers, p.97.

"The sinner is justified through the merits of Christ."Signs of the Times, July 4, 1892.

"We are to be transformed through the merits of Christ." Our Father Cares, p.204.

"Works will never save us. It is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf." Signs of the Times, June 16, 1890.

"The merits of Jesus Christ are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." Steps to Christ, p.36.

"Men are losing the right way, in consequence of thinking that they must climb to Heaven, that they must do something to merit the favour of God. This they can never accomplish." Letter 22, 1889

"We have long desired and tried to obtain the blessings of the covenant of grace but have not received them because we have cherished the idea that we could do something to make ourselves worhty of them." GC Session 1883

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." Review and Herald, 1890

"By faith the sinner can bring to God the merits of Christ. Then the Lord receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted as righteousness and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace and from light to a greater light." Review and Herald, 1890

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes steadily fixed upon Jesus." Message to Battle Creek Church 1896

"The sinner must ever look toward Calvary and with the simple faith of a little child, he must rest in the merits of Christ, accepting His righteousness and believing in His mercy." Evangelism, p.185.

"The merits of Christ blot out transgressions and clothe us with the robe of righteousness woven in the loom of Heaven." Evangelism, p.186.

"It is court week with us. Our cases are pending. We are to present our cases before God pleading the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour saying, "Lord, I have no merit or goodness within whereby I may claim salvation, but I present before you the all-sufficient merits of the spotless Lamb of God. This is my only plea." Signs of the Times, July 4, 1892.

"John Calvin, in His prayer to God, said: "You have touched my heart in order that I may hold in abomination all other merits save those of Jesus." The Great Controversy, p.221.

"I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character but He sees you as clothed in MY perfection" DA 357

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome, there will be no stopping place" AA 560


-------------------

The quotes above fit the Lutheran perspective of salvation quite well as opposed to the RCC position.

Stan

[Robert Parker]

Part 1.

Stan said:

It is only the perfect righteousness of Christ that makes us fit for heaven.

Stan, could I qualify this a little? The perfect righteousness of Christ IMPUTED to us gives us the TITLE to heaven. The perfect righteousness of Jesus IMPARTED to us makes us FIT for heaven. You will find this somewhere in the SOP. We cannot make heaven unless we have BOTH. Let me illustrate:

[Robert]
I might win a ticket to visit the White House to meet Obama. That is my TITLE. But what if I turn up at the White House door in my old working clothes and in an unkempt condition and covered in filth? Will they let me in the door? i don't think so. I must have the title, but having that, I must wash and clean up and put on clean clothes.

[Stan]
Anyone who perverts this gospel and says that we don't have to obey God or live a holy life has not seen the cross. The obedience follows as a result of being born again.

[Robert]
As I understand it, obedience come WITH the new birth. We are not Justified BEFORE we are born again and regenerated. Let me offer a few quotations:

[Bible]
(Tit 3:5)  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(Tit 3:6)  Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(Tit 3:7)  That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


[Robert]
Look at these verses closely. First we are have the washing of regeneration as we apply the sacrifice of Jesus. We are made new creatures (born again). At this moment we have received Justification, We are not Justified FOLLOWED by the new birth and regeneration. Obedience an sanctification start at the very moment and accompanies Justification. But all this comes about not because we have done any good works in the past: they only come with the gift of Justification, This is all wrapped up in PARDON, Ellen White gives the proper meaning of pardon.

[EGW]
But forgiveness has a broader meaning than many suppose. When God gives the promise that He "will abundantly pardon," He adds, as if the meaning of that promise exceeded all that we could comprehend: "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:7-9. God's forgiveness is not merely a judicial act by which He sets us free from condemnation. It is not only forgiveness for sin, but reclaiming from sin. It is the outflow of redeeming love that transforms the heart. David had the true conception of forgiveness when he prayed, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Psalm 51:10. And again he says, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions from us." Psalm 103:12.  {MB 114.1}

[Stan]
But how could we have peace with God if we are always worried about whether we have obtained a degree of sanctification that will make us fit for heaven?


[Robert]
We do not have to worry about it Stan: Just place our faith in the Lord:

[Bible]
(Php 2:13)  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


(continued in Part 2 due to space restrictions).

[Robert Parker]

Part 2.

[Stan]
Here is a repeat of what I posted on the previous page with regard to this:

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


[Robert]
But we only have that peace if we comprehend the full extent of what Justification accomplishes not only FOR us but IN us. You have quoted the following text:

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Notice that reconciliation by itself does not save us. That is, it takes more that the death of Christ to save us. Just the imputation of Christ's righteousness does not save; it must also be imparted to us. Another text you have given is this:

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Atonement is much more that forgiveness; it comes in several stages. I preached a sermon on the Gospel of Atonement several years ago. I still have it on record if anyone would like me to post it or send it to them.

[Stan]
It is only the absolutely perfect righteousness of Christ (imputed righteousness) that will get us into heaven, and none of us will be able to reach the level of perfection in this life that Christ attained.


Do you mind if I compare this statement of yours Stan with one or more from the Spirit of Prophecy?

[EGW]
Those who claim to be sanctified, and who give no heed to the words of divine authority spoken from Mount Sinai, make it manifest that they will not render to God the obedience that the Lawgiver requires. The very excuse they urge for evading the requirements of God proves their sanctification spurious. They say, "I am sanctified," and seek to prove this by setting up a standard of self-righteousness, a law of their own imagining. The law of God requires nothing short of spiritual perfection; and through the infinite sacrifice of the Son of God complete provision has been made that man may become a partaker of the divine nature, and through the merits of the blood of Christ be an overcomer. Of himself he has no perfection. "Without me," Christ says, "ye can do nothing." Provision for our perfection is found in union with Christ. "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."  {RH, August 27, 1901 par. 4}

The mission of Christ on earth was not to destroy the law, but by His grace to bring man back to obedience to its precepts. . . . By His own obedience to the law, Christ testified to its immutable character and proved that through His grace it could be perfectly obeyed by every son and daughter of Adam.  {AG 131.6}


There are many more statements *(even stronger ones) than this in the SOP but that should be sufficient for now.

[Stan]
This was Luther's message and the RCC at the Council of Trent pronounced ANATHEMA on Luther and the Reformers in no uncertain terms for believing in this doctrine of imputation and justification by faith alone, and I would like to quote from the RCC in the next post.


[Robert]

I too intend to post some statements from Luther that will show just what his view was on Justification.

Robert

[Robert Parker]

Stan said: Here are some of the RCC pronouncements against Luther and these pronouncements have never been retracted:

[Robert]
Could I briefly comment on your interpretation of some of these RC declarations Stan?

CANON 9:  "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

This is a false charge against Luther for that is not what he said at all. In another post I hope to post just what Luther says.
(Anathema means the very strongest curse to damn someone to hell)

CANON 12:  "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

Again, this is not what Luther says.

Robert

[newbie]

Newbie,

Would you like to elaborate on this?  I'm not sure what you meant by this statement. It seems that there is a hint of either sarcasm or dismay by what was posted previously. I'd like to get your thoughts. This is a very important topic, and it would be great to have as many as possible contribute to the dialogue. I am sure you have a lot to contribute. You were the one that got all the quiz questions correct.

Stan

Hi Stan,
My only focus on that was what the RCC says....  I could go on for hours about all the problems there....  nothing about what you have said specifically or anyone else...

[newbie]

Just would like to say that if you look at scripture alone, you get a slightly different picture than if you look at both scripture and SOP.....  I think Robert's posts show that.... 

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Stan said: Here are some of the RCC pronouncements against Luther and these pronouncements have never been retracted:

[Robert]
Could I briefly comment on your interpretation of some of these RC declarations Stan?

CANON 9:  "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

This is a false charge against Luther for that is not what he said at all. In another post I hope to post just what Luther says.
(Anathema means the very strongest curse to damn someone to hell)

CANON 12:  "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

Again, this is not what Luther says.

Robert

Robert,

You have posted a lot of material that I hope I can reply to soon. But first, please show me that Martin Luther did not teach what those canons quoted, especially canon 12

CANON 12:  "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"

Respectfully, Robert, this is what Luther affirmed.  It is also what the Roman church believed Luther affirmed, or the council of Trent would not have commented on his views, and it was Luther and Calvin who they had in mind when they pronounced these Anathemas.

Have you read Luther's Commentary on Galatians?  Or what works of Luther have you read?

I have been blessed to have read a large body of what Luther wrote on this topic. But I am keeping an open mind if you can prove that Luther did not teach this.

There is a lot of revisionist history going on right now in the Christian church at large with regard to what the Reformers and the Apostle Paul taught on this topic.

Since Luther was a Roman Catholic Monk, he had to unlearn a lot of bad theology.

Some will quote from Luther's earlier writings such as the commentary on Romans to try to prove that he did not teach the views as Rome understood his views.

However, one must take his latest and fully matured views to rightly understand what he taught.

The commentary to the Galatians is his most mature view on the topic, and it can be read online at:

http://www.studylight.org/com/mlg/

Stan