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  • When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
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Author Topic: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?  (Read 40754 times)

God is Good

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 04:04:53 PM »
Quote from: Robert Parker on January 08, 2010, 02:45:31 PM

I am not sure what you mean GIG. ARE we all sancified? Ellen White speaks of so many claiming Justification, and KNOWING the truth but are not SANCTIFIED by it? Will they be in Heaven?

Robert

Sanctification is a process. It is a lifetime experience that we are ALL in. ALL have and are experiencing sanctification. Some are doing better in the process than others. But none the less ... we are all in that process. But again ... we are not saved by our success or lack of success in the sanctification process ... we are saved because JESUS was sanctified. We are saved by HIS doing and dying. All of our success in the sanctification process is still lacking. We will still need the Robe of Righteousness to cover our failings.

"The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 04:10:01 PM by God is Good »
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V. Hahn

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2010, 08:03:26 PM »
We are being sanctfied if we are obeying the truth..."Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17
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Robert Parker

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2010, 10:12:18 PM »
Quote from: V. Hahn on January 08, 2010, 08:03:26 PM
We are being sanctified if we are obeying the truth..."Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17
[/i]

I agree Vicki! We are not sanctified automatically just because Jesus sanctified Himself. He does not force sanctification on us, as G. I. G. seems to be saying. We have to know and practice the truth before we can be sanctified. In other words we must entirely surrender ourselves to Him. To say that ALL are being sanctified is not true and is a denial of the sOP

Robert
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God is Good

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2010, 12:49:10 PM »
Quote from: Robert Parker on January 08, 2010, 10:12:18 PM


I agree Vicki! We are not sanctified automatically just because Jesus sanctified Himself. He does not force sanctification on us, as G. I. G. seems to be saying. We have to know and practice the truth before we can be sanctified. In other words we must entirely surrender ourselves to Him. To say that ALL are being sanctified is not true and is a denial of the sOP

Robert

It seems we are speaking a different language. I say the word 'sanctification' and you change it to 'sanctified'. Sanctification is as I have stated above ... "a process". When you use the word 'sanctified' ... that signifies that it is completed.  Sanctification is not completed until we die. Sanctification is simply the process of growth that allows Christ in our lives. The Holy Spirit is drawing ALL to Him. That is sanctification. Some are accepting  Him more than others.
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lotrob

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2010, 05:16:52 PM »
Quote from: Robert Parker on January 08, 2010, 12:00:56 AM
. . .
I am a bit curious about GrapeVessel's statement regarding the "fruit of salvation." What exactly does that mean? If I had to give it a definition I would say the fruit of salvation (the end result) is eternal life in the kingdom restored.
Robert

Robert,
I agree the end result of the fruit of salvation is eternal life.  We can have interim results here.  In SD, p. 286 Sister White wrote:  "Every relation in life, every position of responsibility, every affection and habit, every emotion of the mind, is to be brought to the great standard of righteousness, the commandments of God, which are exceeding broad."   When each of these "every" are lived as your standard of righteousness - you are living the commandments of God- manifesting "the fruit of salvation".   In other words keeping God's commandments by being made righteous by faith is the fruit of salvation even in this world.  eh? 

Lottie
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For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass.  The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:  But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.  And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.  1 Peter 1:24-25

Robert Parker

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2010, 10:22:05 PM »
Quote from: lotrob on January 10, 2010, 05:16:52 PM
Robert,
I agree the end result of the fruit of salvation is eternal life.  We can have interim results here.  In SD, p. 286 Sister White wrote:  "Every relation in life, every position of responsibility, every affection and habit, every emotion of the mind, is to be brought to the great standard of righteousness, the commandments of God, which are exceeding broad."   When each of these "every" are lived as your standard of righteousness - you are living the commandments of God- manifesting "the fruit of salvation".   In other words keeping God's commandments by being made righteous by faith is the fruit of salvation even in this world.  eh? 

Lottie

Well Lottie, you bob up everywhere and that is good. You are right of course, we bear the fruits of the Spirit and that is the end result of salvation that we must have before we can enter heaven.

Robert
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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctificati
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2010, 11:46:37 PM »
Here is an article that I found surfing the web that describes the gospel of Justification by grace alone through faith alone on the account of Christ alone:

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2010/01/the_thief_on_the_cross_by_past.php

Here is an excerpt:

The Thief on the Cross by Pastor John Samson

Luke 23: 39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying,
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newbie

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2010, 11:29:48 AM »
I believe that many are justified by baptism in Christ Jesus but this is not where it all ends...  it is not a once saved always saved condition.  Some stop here and fall short just like the 5 virgins without enough oil.

Sanctification is when one is sealed and as you said made holy for a special service to the Lord that continues through out their life.  These people will have power like those working miracles in the book of Acts.

Glorification would happen when the 144K are changed in the twinkling of an eye, when Stephen was stoned, Peter was crucified, those that come out of the graves at the resurrection of the righteous, etc.

What does this scripture mean?  Is this justification, sanctification or glorification?

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctificati
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2010, 12:55:12 PM »
Quote from: newbie on January 14, 2010, 11:29:48 AM


What does this scripture mean?  Is this justification, sanctification or glorification?

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

It is important to look at this text in its context:

42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

 50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.


Fire is a symbol of judgment as in the above context. Fire is also a symbol of the work of the Holy Spirit. All true believers will go through fiery trials and we must be seasoned with the salt of the Word of God.

Stan

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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctificati
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2010, 01:36:57 PM »
Quote from: newbie on January 14, 2010, 11:29:48 AM

I believe that many are justified by baptism in Christ Jesus but this is not where it all ends...  it is not a once saved always saved condition.  Some stop here and fall short just like the 5 virgins without enough oil.

Sanctification is when one is sealed and as you said made holy for a special service to the Lord that continues through out their life.  These people will have power like those working miracles in the book of Acts.

Glorification would happen when the 144K are changed in the twinkling of an eye, when Stephen was stoned, Peter was crucified, those that come out of the graves at the resurrection of the righteous, etc.


All who are born again are justified at the new birth. The thief on the cross experienced the new birth while hanging on the cross. He was justified at the moment he believed and recognized Jesus as God. He will be glorified at the resurrection. This is what the miracle of the new birth means. He did not have the chance to demonstrate a degree of sanctification, but God justified him by faith alone on the account of Christ's sacrifice alone.

 All who are truly born again are justified, and they will also be glorified as Romans 8:29-34 clearly states:

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
-----------------------------

One of the biggest controversies of the Reformation was the meaning of the word Justified. The Roman Catholic church taught that the greek word used for justification meant "To make righteous"  Luther and the other reformers argued that justification meant "To declare righteous".  The Roman church for centuries mistakenly used the Latin meaning of the word. It was a Roman Catholic scholar of great repute named Erasmus who opposed Luther on so many issues, but he admitted that his church was mistaken for centuries about the meaning of the Greek word used for Justification. He agreed that Luther was right on this one--it means "To Declare Righteous"

It was on this point that the gospel was revived, and the Protestant Reformation spread mightily through the Western world.

 We can truly have assurance of our salvation at any point in time that we are trusting in Christ alone for our salvation as Romans 5 declares:

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
-----------------------------
Notice again as in 1 John 5, the verbs are all in the present tense. We have this hope and assurance now!  Being now justified by his blood...we have now received the atonement.

Those who are truly justified and born again will bear the fruit of this new birth and will be the proof that we are saved, but the fruit is never the root of salvation.

The Roman church made the mistake of confusing justification with sanctification. The Reformers thankfully made these important distinctions clear.

We had an excellent discussion started by Larry Lyons on the subject of justification and the differences between the RCC position and the Protestant position at this thread

http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=2840.0

There is an interesting quiz Larry posted at the start of that thread

Stan
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Robert Parker

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctificati
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2010, 03:43:31 PM »
Quote from: Soli Deo Gloria on January 13, 2010, 11:46:37 PM

Here is an article that I found surfing the web that describes the gospel of Justification by grace alone through faith alone on the account of Christ alone:

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2010/01/the_thief_on_the_cross_by_past.php


The trouble with this article SDG is that it does not tell the truth of the Gospel accurately. First it teaches that both Jesus and the thief went to heaven on the very day that they died.  The author of the article understands the gospel only as do the fallen churches of the Reformation: He does not understand it according to the Everlasting Gospel; as we Seventh-day Adventists have been called upon to restore (Rev. 14:6). That true Gospel was perverted and denied by the "beasts" of Revelation 13.

This article's author rules out any "doing" on the part of the repentant thief. However, he did all that he could. He confessed the Lord Jesus before all within range, and to all the world as we read about it. That thief has brought millions of souls to Christ with his cross testimony.  He witnessed to his neighboring thief. If he had not done these things but just kept it in his own heat, would he have been saved and justified? If that thief had not been put to death he would surely have continued his sanctification, without which he would not have been justified. He would have made restitution to those he had robbed. That thief did not just die a physical death on the cross but HE CRUCIFIED SELF and that means he lived a whole new life.

Robert
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Larry Lyons

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2010, 04:19:35 PM »
Excellent post, Robert.
As is often stated, "sancitification is the work of a  lifetime." It is a process that continues throughout life provided we maintain our walk with God, and is also possible only by grace through faith. Justification happens when we give our hearts to God and commit our lives to Him. God declares us forgiven and we stand before him as if we had never sinned. We are henceforth on God's side in the conflict between Christ and Satan being played out on this planet. But we still have flaws in our character, lifestyle habits to overcome that work against us. Justification is our support as the Holy Spirit works with us in the sanctification process.

BTW, sanctification means setting aside for a holy purpose, but also means a inward changing to bring us in compliance with God's expectations. Sanctification does not save us, but it requires our cooperation as we renew our committment to God and receive His strength daily, and by grace through faith accept His promises to both forgive and cleanse. Both are part of God's plan of salvation.
  "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:9)

The atonement, is "complete" in that no other sacrifice is necessary, and we "have" it all along the way provided we continue our walk with God, but it will not be completed until Christ ceases applying his cleansing blood as he ministers in the heavenly sanctuary.

  "The sanctuary guides our understanding of salvation by grace through faith. It answers questions that have an enormous impact upon the way we relate to Christ and the salvation that He offers....
Is Christ's atonement only a "legal" matter, or does it involve transformation of mind and character? Does a Christian who committs sin retain his/her assurance of salvation? Why are we saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9) but judged according to our works (Eccl. 12:14)?
   "By understanding ancient Israelite rituals, such as personal purification by water (Lev 115:5-8) or the Passover service (Exod. 12) we can more powerfully experience our own Christian rituals, such as baptism (Rom. 6:3-4) and Communion (Matt26:17-30).
(Altar Call, p. 35,36 Roy Gane).
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Robert Parker

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2010, 05:18:01 PM »
Quote from: newbie on January 14, 2010, 11:29:48 AM

(Newbie)
Sanctification is when one is sealed and as you said made holy for a special service to the Lord that continues through out their life.  These people will have power like those working miracles in the book of Acts.


(Robert)
Hello friend Newbie! I am glad that you have said that one is sealed when the Holy Spirit convinces him/her to accept Jesus as their Savior. I am sure that you believe that the sealing continues to take place as one settles into the truth and accepts the holy Seventh-day Sabbath. Also that there is a special mark placed on the saints just before the close of probation, so that the destroying angels will know who to spare in the Day of the Lord.

(Newbie)
Glorification would happen when the 144K are changed in the twinkling of an eye, when Stephen was stoned, Peter was crucified, those that come out of the graves at the resurrection of the righteous, etc.


(Robert)
What a great statement you have made above Newbie. Let's look at it a bit further. I am not sure that glorification takes place (except for the 144,000) before anyone is resurrected. Jesus went to the grave in His unglorified state and was raised glorified. Stephen's face certainly shone with glory, but I do not think that he will be fully glorified until his resurrection. The 144,000 will be glorified when the voice of God announces the day and the hour of Jesus' return (see GC pages 640 and 645).

(Newbie)
What does this scripture mean?  Is this justification, sanctification or glorification?

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
[/i]

(Robert)
This statement seems to me to be related to sanctification as we put on the righteousness of Jesus, and comes after the initial justification and before glorification. There are elements of justification in there though as we are only justified in coming to the Father through Christ.

In the ritual service, salt was added to every sacrifice. This, like the offering of incense, signified that only the righteousness of Christ could make the service acceptable to God. Referring to this practice, Jesus said, "Every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." "Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another." All who would present themselves "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God" (Rom. 12:1), must receive the saving salt, the righteousness of our Saviour. Then they become "the salt of the earth," restraining evil among men, as salt preserves from corruption. Matt. 5:13. But if the salt has lost its savor; if there is only a profession of godliness, without the love of Christ, there is no power for good. The life can exert no saving influence upon the world. Your energy and efficiency in the upbuilding of My kingdom, Jesus says, depend upon your receiving of My Spirit. You must be partakers of My grace, in order to be a savor of life unto life. Then there will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.  {DA 439.2}

God bless you Newbie,

Robert
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Robert Parker

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctificati
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2010, 05:59:45 PM »
Quote from: Soli Deo Gloria on January 14, 2010, 01:36:57 PM

All who are born again are justified at the new birth. The thief on the cross experienced the new birth while hanging on the cross. He was justified at the moment he believed and recognized Jesus as God. He will be glorified at the resurrection. This is what the miracle of the new birth means. He did not have the chance to demonstrate a degree of sanctification, but God justified him by faith alone on the account of Christ's sacrifice alone.


(Robert)

I think you are missing something in your remarks about Justification SDG. Justification means more than just to declare someone to be righteous. Ellen White sees the truth of Justification as presented in Scripture.

I was attending a meeting, and a large congregation were present. In my dream you were presenting the subject of faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. You repeated several times that works amounted to nothing, that there were no conditions. The matter was presented in that light that I knew minds would be confused and would not receive the correct impression in reference to faith and works, and I decided to write to you. You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ. I know your meaning, but you leave a wrong impression upon many minds. While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. God saves us under a law, that we must ask if we would receive, seek if we would find, and knock if we would have the door opened unto us.  {FW 111.1}.

I am concerned that this is what you may be doing as well. Jones had it right in his earlier statements around 1888. He said that justification carries sanctification on its face. That means there is no such thing as justification without sanctification, and the thief on the cross certainly exhibited a degree of sanctification. It seems to me that you have not progressed from Luther and the fallen Protestant churches. The SDA church has been given further light through Ellen White and others. Have you ever read some of the writings of Dennis Priebe on this subject? I do not agree with him on every point but I believe he has this right.

Robert
 
 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 06:32:21 PM by Robert Parker »
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Robert Parker

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Re: When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2010, 06:26:42 PM »
And that is a spot on reply from you Larry---I cannot fault a word you have said. I feel that, when we are talking to anyone about Justification we should always link it with sanctification just to make sure we do not give anyone the wrong impression. I want to make an observation here and I pray that folk will understand what I am saying. Justification does"make righteous in the sense that it never comes without sanctification; it is utterly impossible to have one without the other. Justification and Sanctification are married[/i and God's law does not allow for divorce: "(Mat 19:6)  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

Robert
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