When Does Justiification take place and what is its relation to Sanctification?

[newbie]

On a side note, I'm saddened as I see that Robert Parker started this thread.  I miss him terribly.  We were good friends in spite of theological differences.  This is what I believe we should all be... accepting of each other while we all continue to study the word and wait patiently for the latter rain.  We are to continue in the love of Jesus while every theory and idea is brought into the church.  Very soon, all these theological differences will be made clear and the people that continue in the truth will move on and remain strong through the end times.  Some are trying to pluck up what they believe are tares before it is time... to their surprise, they may be plucking up the wheat. 

[Larry Lyons]

I liked Robert. He had some interesting stories of when he was young. I agree about the wheat and tares. I also agree with what you said about justification. I have heard it expressed this way. When God looked at Jesus dying on the cross and turned away from him he saw us in our filthy rags of sin instead of Jesus. Now when he looks at us he sees Jesus. Now, when we go to the cross each day we can claim the promises that are provided for us through the death and resurrection of Jesus. I especially like Romans 6:11. "Likewise recon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

What are some other promises that are now available to us through Jesus?

[restoretruth]

"To Receive God

[Larry Lyons]

Restoretruth, those are good quotes. Here is another one:

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:5

In our devotions each day, by giving our consent to His mind being in us we can have this experience.

   "All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that while obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses." (Desire of Ages. p 668)

[Soli Deo Gloria]

I haven't gone back to read all of the posts on this thread from the beginning so I don't know if this was brought up earlier.

I have known Adventists who seem to believe that justification is a one time event that occurs when we accept Jesus, and we are "accounted" as righteous. After that, a process of sanctification starts and we gradually overcome sin until we die or we perfect our characters by the time Christ completes His ministry in the most holy place just before he returns to Earth. So after we are justified, that is, "saved" and we sin, we lose our standing with God and are in a lost condition until we repent and are justified and saved all over again. In other words, we are like yo yos after we accept Jesus. When we sin we are dishonorably discharged from God's army and expelled from his family and disinherited until we repent and are saved again.

Is that a correct understanding of justification?

John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
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Justification occurs at the moment that we have been born of God. This is the miracle that must happen first.

Jesus said in John 3:3 that to enter the kingdom we must be born again.

 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

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The apostle Paul expands on this principle in Romans 8:14-17

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

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It seems that this discussion about justification vs sanctification and some of the technical aspects misses a bigger picture of salvation.

If we are truly born again and converted, then we are God's children by adoption.

He justifies all of his children when they are born into His family. 

Martin Luther had it right. Justification occurs simultaneously with the new birth.We are declared righteous with Christ's righteousness imputed to our account. As God's children, the Holy Spirit then does a work of a lifetime and brings up God's children in the way they should go to maturity.

What Father would cast off his adopted child because he is disobedient? Where do some get the idea that God treats His children any different than any kind loving father who cares for his children?

When we sin, we are not cast out of salvation. We confess our sins to restore our fellowship with God and not to restore our salvation which is ours by adoption. The same is true of an earthly child who repents to restore fellowship and not to restore sonship. The Prodigal son was still a son, even though he was living in the pig pen, but was restored to fellowship with a big party thrown when he returned.

It seems like it would only be a long pattern of rebellion and willful walking away or running away which would mean a loss of salvation.

God makes every effort to make sure  that we don't fall away. He is in the business of saving sinners and not condemning them.

I don't know where the yo-yo theory of salvation comes from, but such an idea is unbiblical.

Stan

[Larry Lyons]

Stan, I also would add that when His disciples asked Jesus about the signs of His return, Jesus first warned them about being the danger of being deceived. Even the "very elect" are not immune to deception.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Stan, I also would add that when His disciples asked Jesus about the signs of His return, Jesus first warned them about being the danger of being deceived. Even the "very elect" are not immune to deception.

Good point Larry, but Jesus gave the disciples much hope for the days ahead:

Matthew 24:24:
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
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Now why does Jesus say it this way? It seems to me that Jesus is saying that the very elect will not be deceived. The deceptions and delusions are so great, that they would be deceived if it were possible.

Later, Jesus was talking to His disciples and by extension, the Christian church, His sheep in John 10: 27-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30 I and my Father are one.
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Yes, it is possible for us to take ourselves out of salvation, but if the above texts are true, (and I believe they are), it would appear that false Christs and other external forces will not be able to take true sheep out of salvation, even though the delusions are so great that If it were possible to deceive the very elect, but somehow  the very elect are protected and it is not possible.

It is hard to take away the force of the above texts. These promises are good news indeed.

And these promises should not make us complacent. We are commanded to be ever vigilant and stay in the Word and pray without ceasing.

Stan

[newbie]

Matthew 24:24:
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
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Now why does Jesus say it this way? It seems to me that Jesus is saying that the very elect will not be deceived. The deceptions and delusions are so great, that they would be deceived if it were possible.

I absolutely agree with your interpretation of this scripture.  The very elect will not be deceived.  I think in Matt. 24 Jesus warns us not to be deceived 6 times.  That would be a very important message to us all to have something repeated that many times.

[Larry Lyons]

I absolutely agree with your interpretation of this scripture.  The very elect will not be deceived.  I think in Matt. 24 Jesus warns us not to be deceived 6 times.  That would be a very important message to us all to have something repeated that many times.

Perhaps it depends on how the definition of "very elect" is defined.

[Raven]

I think it's pretty clear from the Bible and the SOP that the elect will not be deceived.  The deceptions will be so strong that if it were possible the elect would be deceived.  But it won't be possible, for two reasons:  1--they love the truth; 2--they will have fortified their minds with the truths of the Bible.  Ellen White says that all those who do not have those two characteristics will be deceived.  This needs to be stressed more in our SS classes and from the pulpit.  I'm afraid very few among our members realize how bad it will get.  It's already bad.  Look at what's going on over at Adventist Today and Spectrum.  But I believe it will get much worse.

[Larry Lyons]

I think it's pretty clear from the Bible and the SOP that the elect will not be deceived.  The deceptions will be so strong that if it were possible the elect would be deceived.  But it won't be possible, for two reasons:  1--they love the truth; 2--they will have fortified their minds with the truths of the Bible.  Ellen White says that all those who do not have those two characteristics will be deceived.  This needs to be stressed more in our SS classes and from the pulpit.  I'm afraid very few among our members realize how bad it will get.  It's already bad.  Look at what's going on over at Adventist Today and Spectrum.  But I believe it will get much worse.

Raven, not to nit pick, but your statement is about those who won't be deceived, but I'm not sure it defines "the elect," unless you mean that the word "elect" is synonomous with "saved." What special connotation does "elect" mean?  If I'm not mistaken, some Christians take it to mean that God arbitrarily chooses some to be saved (the elect) and some to be lost.

[Raven]

I understand the "elect" to be those who remain loyal to God unto the end; those who will be sealed prior to the close of probation.  When one considers all the statements in Scripture regarding the elect, the saved, and predestination, it is clear that God, in His foreknowledge, predestined the elect to be saved because He foresaw their unwavering fidelity to the truth; their loyalty to Him.  He did not predetermine who the elect would be; but He foresaw who they would be.  He did not force them to serve Him; it was their choice.  He made provision for everyone to be numbered among the elect; however, "many are called, but few are chosen."