A Long List

[newbie]

Funny, when Jesus said that we are his friends when we do whatever he commands, I thought He was talking about the "mundane" stuff and standards. I guess He didn't mean that we are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

I believe this too.

[guibox]

Funny, when Jesus said that we are his friends when we do whatever he commands, I thought He was talking about the "mundane" stuff and standards. I guess He didn't mean that we are to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Really? Please show me in the scriptures where Jesus says 'Thou shalt not wear wedding bands?' I fail to see how certain church standards seem to have the direct stamp and approval of scriptures in the minds of some traditionalists when much of what they deem as salvational, Christ would classify under the 'straining the gnat, swallowing the camel' scenario. The SDA church has their own set of rules and standards just like the Pharisees did...for some reason, many can't seem to see that. Yet (just like the Pharisees) their outward appearance and minding of the standards is NECESSARY to be a good Pharisee/SDA, and apparently has the stamp and approval of God, Himself.

Yet, we see both Jesus and Paul with strong words against them for their standard and law keeping and expecing everyone to keep the letter of the law while missing the big picture.

My how history repeats itself, and (again, just like the Pharisees) many 'good' SDAs can't seem to think that there is anything erroneous about what they've established for all to follow.

[wondering]

Really? Please show me in the scriptures where Jesus says 'Thou shalt not wear wedding bands?' I fail to see how certain church standards seem to have the direct stamp and approval of scriptures in the minds of some traditionalists when much of what they deem as salvational, Christ would classify under the 'straining the gnat, swallowing the camel' scenario. The SDA church has their own set of rules and standards just like the Pharisees did...for some reason, many can't seem to see that. Yet (just like the Pharisees) their outward appearance and minding of the standards is NECESSARY to be a good Pharisee/SDA, and apparently has the stamp and approval of God, Himself.

Yet, we see both Jesus and Paul with strong words against them for their standard and law keeping and expecing everyone to keep the letter of the law while missing the big picture.

My how history repeats itself, and (again, just like the Pharisees) many 'good' SDAs can't seem to think that there is anything erroneous about what they've established for all to follow.

I must admit you strike me as too intelligent to take this route. Whipping out the Pharisee argument is old, tired and does not apply. Lashing out only shows the lack of depth in your position.

I will not discuss this with you further because I know we don't agree on inspiration, etc. So we have no common basis from which to discuss it. Just because you do not see the principles that underlie some things doesn't mean that the principles do not exist - it just means you don't see it, sorry to say.

[guibox]

I must admit you strike me as too intelligent to take this route. Whipping out the Pharisee argument is old, tired and does not apply. Lashing out only shows the lack of depth in your position.

When every other rational and logical argument falls on deaf ears...it usually means the Pharisee argument needs to be whipped out.

I will not discuss this with you further because I know we don't agree on inspiration, etc.

Then use your arguments from inspiration. When you try and 'seal' the argument by saying 'Jesus said' which is pretty much what you did, you better have a good support for it. I may play the Pharisee argument, but you are playing the 'God is on MY side with this' argument with nothing concrete to show for it.

 

[Larry Lyons]

"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaitting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparal;" (1 Peter 3:3)

"In like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparal, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing." (1Tim. 2:9 NKJ)

Those texts do not seem to be unclear of fuzzy at all.

"A person's character is judged by his style of dress. A refined taste,  a cultivated mind, will be revealed in the chioce of simple and appropriate attire." (EGW, Education, p 248.)

The question we should ask is are we trying to attract attention to ourselves by what we put on? Our outward appearance is the first line of our Christian witness. Before we even speak, a message, much of it subliminal has already been given. The world can see clearly if our object is to proudly display self, or if we are rebelling against social norms, or if we are saying "look at me, I am hip slick and cool just like the teenagers." (That person may be almost 50 years old and looks it no matter what he or she puts on or how he or she wears their hair) If we truly want to glorify God, we will make an effort to dress modestly and appropriately and not let our appearance get in the way of our witness.

On the other hand, pride can cause people to overdo it in the other direction. We can make a spectacle of ourselves by dressing in such a way that seems to say, "look at me, I am very modest and humble."

[Deborah Risinger]

Not wanting to really get into the crossfires here...and I admit upfront...I fall on the traditional side, conservative train of thought. 

However, it is true, we each must decide for ourselves concerning this and other issues........ what we think God is asking.

In saying this, I wonder if "how" we are coming to our conclusions is perhaps the criteria God will use to judge our decisions.

It seems the issues are many, but........ "how" we come to our conclusions may be the equation we need to evaluate.

Eve's problem was, she did not use God's Word as her criteria...she used other information that skewed her decision.

Perhaps each of us needs to ask ourselves "how" we come to our conclusions.

If you think I'm off base, thats' fine....


God's Blessings'
Deborah 

[Larry Lyons]

Not wanting to really get into the crossfires here...and I admit upfront...I fall on the traditional side, conservative train of thought.  

However, it is true, we each must decide for ourselves concerning this and other issues........ what we think God is asking.

In saying this, I wonder if "how" we are coming to our conclusions is perhaps the criteria God will use to judge our decisions.

It seems the issues are many, but........ "how" we come to our conclusions may be the equation we need to evaluate.

Eve's problem was, she did not use God's Word as her criteria...she used other information that skewed her decision.

Perhaps each of us needs to ask ourselves "how" we come to our conclusions.

If you think I'm off base, thats' fine....


God's Blessings'
Deborah  

Thank you Deborah! That is excellent.  Before we decide on the whats we ought to be clear on how to proceed to the place where we can even make an informed choice regarding the whats. That concept holds true  accross the board. We should ask the question how do we make decisions as to what is appropriate to offer God as part of our worship? What should determine our personal choices as to our lifestyle? Culture does play a part, but to what extent should we allow culture, or personal taste or preference to determine how we live and worship God? Obviously when it comes to worship and things pertaining to worship, it can't be done individually. It is a corporate decision, but the question is still relevent. How do we decide those things?

 This is how I look at individual choice: If we are simply driven by our personal taste or culture, or psychological factors or our emotional needs we are not actually choosing. According to the dictionary, choosing means to "freely select after consideration." In other words, after we consider all of the relevant factors, we set them to the side in our minds and then choose. "Becauses" are considerations, not choices. In other words, I might say I choose vanilla instead of chocolate because I like vanilla. Technically speaking that is not a choice. The selection is being driven by our taste preference.

In the issues of how to live a godly life we ought to have looked at all that we can glean from the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy under the direction of the Holy Spirit (assuming we are willing to Go where He leads) and then we can choose. We will have been inwardly changed, and like Martin Luther, we can say "Here I stand so help me God!" (paraphrased) That is choosing.

[guibox]

"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaitting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparal;" (1 Peter 3:3)

What's the context, Larry? If you look closely, you'll see that this is advice given to the proper deportment of submissive wives in the context of how to please God within the marriage covenant.

1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your (***these submissive wives) beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,

Larry, this is not even close to clear biblical evidence or apostolic sanction against jewelry, never mind a wedding ring.

"In like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparal, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing." (1Tim. 2:9 NKJ)

Those texts do not seem to be unclear of fuzzy at all.

Hmmm. Not fuzzy? Perhaps you missed the rest of this passage.

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Are you willing to follow the rest too, Larry? Are you going to insist that women do not braid their hair or speak in church over a man? Are you going to insist that one of the rich patrons of your church wear a $200 suit instead of his $1000 one? Come one, Larry. You can't pick and choose here. Perhaps the context here is not as clear as you think. Perhaps the issue is more cultural. It sounds pretty fuzzy to me.

If we are going to slam other Christians for abusing and misusing Colossians 2, Hebrews 4 and Revelation 14:11, then we should be following the same considerations in exegesis of other passages instead of assuming they support what we want them to support. It's just as similar.

[Larry Lyons]

Guibox, you need to look at the historical context. just like today, pagan women tended to wear outlandish hairstyles to draw attention to themselves and they decorated themselves to display their gold and jewelry.  Paul was telling Christian women to avoid that. There are principles here. The principles apply to Christian women and men in all ages. The outward appearance should be decent, dignified, showing respect for God, ourselves, and others.

Some of the hair styles that I sometimes see on Adventist TV are elaborate and even bizarre, and would attract attention anywhere. They must spend hours creating it. Or having it done. Do you have any idea what hairstylists charge? One particular lady who is on regularly apparantly makes an effort to look lke she pays no attention at all to her hair. One is almost as bad as the other. The Bible principle is up to date.

Paul left little doubt as to what he meant. It applies to Christian women.
(9)"Women must dress in becoming manner, modestly and soberly, not with elaborate hair-styles, not adorned with gold or pearls or expensive clothes, (10) But with good deeds as befits women who claim to be religious." (1 Tim. 2:9,10, Revised English Bible)

The purpose of expensive or flashy clothing and jewelry is to attract attention to oneself and makes a person appear vain and self-centered.

Paul's statement about women talking in church that you bring in had also to do with  historical context. You probably have heard about it before.  Women sat on one side and men sat on the other side of the room. The women would talk across the Isle to thier husbands and it was disruptive. That has been in past SS Lesson Quarterlies, and I heard Doug Batchelor talk about that not long ago.  There is more about it in the SDA Commentary.

The role of Women in the church and Spiritual headship is not the topic that we are on. but there are excellent resources if you are interested.

Guibox, I really have no interest in controlling what others do. If you visited my church you would realize how funny your statement about people wearing $300 dollar or $1000 dollar suits sound. If you saw the group away from church you would never have the slightest notion they were dressed for church. To give you some idea, the nearest dry cleaners is almost 100 miles away, and only myself and the head elder ever wear anything that has to be dry cleaned. Except for the pastor who comes once a month. (Sometimes)

A couple of years ago a visitor was coming from some distance to our church. He was low on gasoline and had to stop in a town a few miles away to buy gas. He was dressed in a suit and tie. Someone asked him where he was going. "Orleans" he said. "Are you a Seventh-day Adventist?" the man asked, "Yes, how did you know?" "Nobody would be headed for Orleans on a Saturday morning dressed like that unless he was going to churcn" the man said. Obviously the man at the gas station had never been to our church. In terms of dressing up for church, compared with all the Adventist churches in North America, I think our church would fall into the bottom percentile.

But if you happen to be having car trouble along side highway 96 and one of our men comes by, he will stop, and you will get some competant assistance. That is unless you have the misfortune for it to be me. Mechanical stuff is not my gift. But if it happens to be you Guibox, I'll take out my banjo and you can get out your guitar and we'll play a few tunes while you wait for the tow truck, which could take awhile.  

[CONCRETE]

Larry,

Using the Amplified Bible in order to futher understand the Greek, 1 Peter reads:

Peter 3:2-5 (Amplified Bible)

2 When they observe the pure and modest way in which you conduct yourselves, together with your [a] reverence [for your husband; you are to feel for him all that reverence includes: to respect, defer to, revere him--to honor, esteem, appreciate, prize, and, in the human sense, to adore him, that is, to admire, praise, be devoted to, deeply love, and enjoy your husband].
3 Let not yours be the [merely] external adorning with [elaborate] interweaving and knotting of the hair, the wearing of jewelry, or changes of clothes;
4 But let it be the inward adorning and beauty of the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible and unfading charm of a gentle and peaceful spirit, which [is not anxious or wrought up, but] is very precious in the sight of God.
5 For it was thus that the pious women of old who hoped in God were [accustomed] to beautify themselves and were submissive to their husbands [adapting themselves to them as themselves secondary and dependent upon them].

This looks to me as though Peter is commenting on the greater value of inner beauty rather than outward adornments. No mandate here. Paul has recommended that people in ministry should stay single like him and not get married (good advice for those who want to stay more focused), but did not advise against it. Are we not to get married then?

What about 1 Timothy?

1 Timothy 2:8-10 (Amplified Bible)

8 I desire therefore that in every place men should pray, without anger or quarreling or resentment or doubt [in their minds], lifting up holy hands.
9 Also [I desire] that women should adorn themselves modestly and appropriately and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with [elaborate] hair arrangement or gold or pearls or expensive clothing,
10 But by doing good deeds (deeds in themselves good and for the good and advantage of those contacted by them), as befits women who profess reverential fear for and devotion to God.

Again this verse is not mandating the not wearing of jewelry but avoiding the elaborate. Larry, you are correct that some Christians can over do it with their hair and not wear any jewelry at all. The cotext of these verses is what is missing when people use them as examples of not wearing jewelry, much less a simple wedding band.

In regards to:

"A person's character is judged by his style of dress. A refined taste,  a cultivated mind, will be revealed in the choice of simple and appropriate attire." (EGW, Education, p 248.)

I have to disagree with Ellen on this one (note the word is). PEOPLE judge other people's characters by their dress. It is a total assumption on a person based solely on their attire. Yes their are those who may be ignorant about dress and show up to a bank job interview in dress causal. However, there are those who have shown up to a construction job interview in a suit (industry standards don't do this except for executive positions). Dress does not accurately portray one's character, as I know some devote seekers of God that may look like bikers to some, but in reality, are just good loving people. We CAN'T and SHOULD not judge others character solely by what they are wearing. I have also met and know refined, cultivated folks who don't dress like what is described above. In order to get a handle on a person's character is to know them for who they are.

[Larry Lyons]

Concrete, the Amplified Bible is not something I would use to do serious Bible study any more than I would use the Clear Word. The "amplification" with words added like "merely" that alters the plain meaning of a verse reflects the thoughts of those who produced the Bible.

Thank you for your honesty in pointing out the fact that you disagree with the Spirit of Prophecy, but you apparantly missed the point she makes in the statement. She is stressing the fact that people do judge us by our appearance, like it or not. It is actually our first line of witnessing. Individuals and businesses pay big money for the services of image consultants. Hollywood and the entertainment world pay very meticulous attention to these things because so much money is at stake for them.

It is a well established by professionals and academics who have made a study of these things, that our outward appearance is sending unspoken messages to those around us. This is further amplified by the way we speak. Ellen White's counsel is the same as Paul's counsel. To dress expensively, extravagantly and/or immodestly interferes with our Christian witness.

[Jim]

Concrete, it sounds like I'm hearing from you that lifestyle is not an indication of character. Really? So your dress, music preferences, tv and movie watching habits, language, and behavior are not an indication of who a person is on the inside?

I bet almost all secular people would fight this idea tooth-n-nail. Most people will tell you that they dress a certain way or listen to certain types of music as an expression of themselves. The language and behavior is also a indicator whether one likes to admit it or not.

The Bible also tells us that lifestyle is an indication of who/what one is on the inside....

Mat 12:33  Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure
bringeth forth evil things.

One more question if you don't mind. Instead of calling Mrs. White, Ellen White you called her Ellen as if you were on a first name basis with her. I wonder is this a sign of respect or disrespect? I very well could be wrong so correct if I am. But it has been my experience in interacting with people (in person) that when they use only her first name it's a way of indicating disrespect. But since I can't see your facial expressions or hear your tone of voice I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Which is why I'm asking directly.

[Larry Lyons]

Concrete, it sounds like I'm hearing from you that lifestyle is not an indication of character. Really? So your dress, music preferences, tv and movie watching habits, language, and behavior are not an indication of who a person is on the inside?

I bet almost all secular people would fight this idea tooth-n-nail. Most people will tell you that they dress a certain way or listen to certain types of music as an expression of themselves. The language and behavior is also a indicator whether one likes to admit it or not.

The Bible also tells us that lifestyle is an indication of who/what one is on the inside....

Mat 12:33  Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure
bringeth forth evil things.

One more question if you don't mind. Instead of calling Mrs. White, Ellen White you called her Ellen as if you were on a first name basis with her. I wonder is this a sign of respect or disrespect? I very well could be wrong so correct if I am. But it has been my experience in interacting with people (in person) that when they use only her first name it's a way of indicating disrespect. But since I can't see your facial expressions or hear your tone of voice I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Which is why I'm asking directly.

That is a good point Jim. When she was alive no one ever referred to her as "Ellen."  Even Sarah McEnterfer, her nurse and travelling companion for several years did not call her Ellen. She always called her "mother." Most people referred to her and adressed her as Mrs. White.