Two Justifications

[BobRyan]

In Romans 5 you have justification past "Having BEEN Justified by faith we HAVE peace with God".

In Romans 2 we have justification future "for it is not the HEARERS that are just before God but the DOERS WILL BE justified".

The IJ doctrine of Judgment in Dan 7 is presented in Romans 2 as "the gospel" where Paul argues that "According to my Gospel" God WILL judge.

The justification that is past - is individual, is subjective, and changes the salvation status of the lost person from being lost to being born-again - saved.

But the justification FUTURE concept is corporate (Dan 7) and is objective with data in books presented for rendering the decision. The salvation status of the saints is not changed in that judgment. No one goes in lost and comes out saved. No one goes in saved and comes out lost.

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

[newbie]

In Romans 5 you have justification past "Having BEEN Justified by faith we HAVE peace with God".

In Romans 2 we have justification future "for it is not the HEARERS that are just before God but the DOERS WILL BE justified".

The IJ doctrine of Judgment in Dan 7 is presented in Romans 2 as "the gospel" where Paul argues that "According to my Gospel" God WILL judge.

The justification that is past - is individual, is subjective, and changes the salvation status of the lost person from being lost to being born-again - saved.

But the justification FUTURE concept is corporate (Dan 7) and is objective with data in books presented for rendering the decision. The salvation status of the saints is not changed in that judgment. No one goes in lost and comes out saved. No one goes in saved and comes out lost.

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

I'm familiar with two forms of righteousness but not two justifications.  We are justified in Christ when we accept Him as our saviour.  This is through faith in Him.  Faith is an action word that is trust in God.  It can be mental or demonstrated....

Tell me more what you are thinking...

[Raven]

In Romans 5 you have justification past "Having BEEN Justified by faith we HAVE peace with God".

In Romans 2 we have justification future "for it is not the HEARERS that are just before God but the DOERS WILL BE justified".

The IJ doctrine of Judgment in Dan 7 is presented in Romans 2 as "the gospel" where Paul argues that "According to my Gospel" God WILL judge.

The justification that is past - is individual, is subjective, and changes the salvation status of the lost person from being lost to being born-again - saved.

But the justification FUTURE concept is corporate (Dan 7) and is objective with data in books presented for rendering the decision. The salvation status of the saints is not changed in that judgment. No one goes in lost and comes out saved. No one goes in saved and comes out lost.

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

Unless I'm misunderstood the texts in question, I think you've made it more complicated that it really is.  In Rom. 2 he is speaking of those who will be justified when they meet the qualifications for justification.  In Rom. 5 he is speaking of those who have already met those conditions.  I've never heard of 2 different types of justification.  There is justification, which occurs when one accepts Christ; and there is sanctification, which is a process that continues throughout the lifetime of the Christian, as long as one remains "in Christ."

I don't see how there can be corporate justification, since it has always been presented as an individual matter.  I think you're confusing the judgment that is spoken of in Daniel with the justification that Paul speaks of.  They are not the same.

[BobRyan]

I'm familiar with two forms of righteousness but not two justifications.  We are justified in Christ when we accept Him as our saviour.  This is through faith in Him.  Faith is an action word that is trust in God.  It can be mental or demonstrated....

Tell me more what you are thinking...

In the quote from Romans 2 -- justification is "future" and it occurs "on the day when according to my Gospel God WILL judge" -- at the I.J.

In the quote from Romans 5 - we have another kind of justification -- one that is past -- the one that happens when you become a Christian.

In Romans 5 you have justification past "Having BEEN Justified   by faith we HAVE peace with God".

In Romans 2 we have justification future "for it is not the HEARERS that are just before God but the DOERS WILL BE justified".

The IJ doctrine of Judgment in Dan 7 is presented in Romans 2 as "the gospel" where Paul argues that "According to my Gospel" God WILL judge.

The justification that is past - is individual, is subjective, and changes the salvation status of the lost person from being lost to being born-again - saved.

But the justification FUTURE concept is corporate (Dan 7) and is objective with data in books presented for rendering the decision. The salvation status of the saints is not changed in that judgment. No one goes in lost and comes out saved. No one goes in saved and comes out lost.

In Romans 2 the details about the "future" justification show how works and "perseverance in doing good" Rom 2:7 come into play.

In Romans 5 (and also in Romans 3) we see "past justification" and it is by faith apart from works -- it happens the moment you are born again. It is the one that changes your salvation status -- from lost to saved.

in Christ,

Bob

[newbie]

The way I understand it is that Christ has already justified us (past) by his work on this earth and victory over sin.  The future tenses refer to our election and justification through Christ.  We all have the option but maybe will not take of it until a future time..  We must all make our election sure.

newbie

[BobRyan]

Ok -- maybe more Bible will help to clarify.

Since we seem to be agreeing over and over on the issue of "Justification past" I am not going to go into a lot of detail on Romans 3 and Romans  5 that strongly affirm that point.

I will concentrate on areas like Romans 2 and James 2 that provide a model for justification duing the future I.J.

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus[/b].

[colporteur]

Bob;

Where does the term and principle of Sanctification fit into your view of all of this?

[BobRyan]

Sanctification is easier to deal with -- there is only one.

My goal here was to reconcile what we see in scripture itself when it points to justification past as in Romans 5 vs the places where it assigns justification to a future event related to the Judgment.

in Christ,

Bob