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Author Topic: An important Forum Guideline  (Read 29917 times)

reaching4heaven

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2008, 07:16:32 AM »
Quote from: Larry Lyons on August 14, 2008, 03:16:54 PM
I am concerned about  the tendency to have a "White Fight," to sling EGW quotes at one another in an argument. They may seem to support opposite positions, but if they do, that doesn't mean that one quote cancels the other out, that means we are not seeing and considering the whole picture that EGW presents on a subject.  

There is another potential problem in disucssing health matters on an open forum. This is an open forum. Anyone can come here and read what is being posted. It was pointed out that there is a danger involved in advocating our personal views on medical treatment vs. alternate methods. It may be far fetched, but someone could get the idea that taking their heart medicine or their insulin is a sin, and the Pastor could have a big legal problem on his hands. We have had a medical disclaimer on the website, but that would not stop someone who is determined and feels they have been harmed. Dalfie is experimenting with placing the disclaimer on the first post of each page of the health discussions.

I have quoted what appears to be an opposing EGW quote to another's post. It was in the spirit of wanting to understand how they fit together. I don't believe one cancels out the other, either. We need to be able to look at it all and get the whole picture. There never was a decent reply to my question on how they work together. I think that needs to be able to be discussed on the thread without it being considered an attack on someones position on drugs.

I also take into consideration that there are many guests on the forum so we need to have support for our views, and people need to know not to make radical, unknowledgeable decisions. If one were so inclined to change methods of dealing with a health issue it should be clearly researched and if it is an issue with the heart there needs to be counsel with a professional who can help the person transfer from medication to natural remedies. That was stated on the thread. (If the person is so ill they cannot have an exercise program to strengthen the heart there might not be an option available - so many considerations...but we must be responsible for our own health & the choices we make.)  There are natural remedies for most diseases. To not be open to that is allowing oneself to be blind. That doesn't mean that someone has to choose natural over Rx - we all have decisions to make in life but if we don't know the options we are crippling our decision making abilities. The health message is the right arm of the gospel; we should be able to discuss it without worry of lawsuit or flaming remarks.
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Larry Lyons

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2008, 12:07:25 PM »
Quote from: reaching4heaven on August 15, 2008, 07:16:32 AM
I have quoted what appears to be an opposing EGW quote to another's post. It was in the spirit of wanting to understand how they fit together. I don't believe one cancels out the other, either. We need to be able to look at it all and get the whole picture. There never was a decent reply to my question on how they work together. I think that needs to be able to be discussed on the thread without it being considered an attack on someones position on drugs.

I also take into consideration that there are many guests on the forum so we need to have support for our views, and people need to know not to make radical, unknowledgeable decisions. If one were so inclined to change methods of dealing with a health issue it should be clearly researched and if it is an issue with the heart there needs to be counsel with a professional who can help the person transfer from medication to natural remedies. That was stated on the thread. (If the person is so ill they cannot have an exercise program to strengthen the heart there might not be an option available - so many considerations...but we must be responsible for our own health & the choices we make.)  There are natural remedies for most diseases. To not be open to that is allowing oneself to be blind. That doesn't mean that someone has to choose natural over Rx - we all have decisions to make in life but if we don't know the options we are crippling our decision making abilities. The health message is the right arm of the gospel; we should be able to discuss it without worry of lawsuit or flaming remarks.
Reaching, speaking in general terms, not directing it at any one in particular, I believe a Christian attitude and a little common sense would go a long way. We can't be telling people that taking medication that has been prescribed by their physicain means they lack faith in God or is rebellion against God.  A lawsuit may be far fetched, but it is irresponsible to urge that on people, especially when we have no accountability for the outcome. And we can't continue making flaming remarks. That destroys the credibility of whatever else we might have to say, and it destroys our Christian witness no matter how correct we might be.

I think your comparison of the two statements was valid and was taking the conversation in the right direction. I'm afraid it got lost in the middle of something else. I appreciate your input and your attitude.
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Soli Deo Gloria

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2008, 05:21:56 PM »
Quote from: Larry Lyons on August 15, 2008, 12:07:25 PM
Reaching, speaking in general terms, not directing it at any one in particular, I believe a Christian attitude and a little common sense would go a long way. We can't be telling people that taking medication that has been prescribed by their physicain means they lack faith in God or is rebellion against God.  A lawsuit may be far fetched, but it is irresponsible to urge that on people, especially when we have no accountability for the outcome. And we can't continue making flaming remarks. That destroys the credibility of whatever else we might have to say, and it destroys our Christian witness no matter how correct we might be.

I think your comparison of the two statements was valid and was taking the conversation in the right direction. I'm afraid it got lost in the middle of something else. I appreciate your input and your attitude.

Excellent points Larry.

I want to put my vote of confidence in for the job Larry does as moderator. I think he is quite fair, and has not been afraid to call people out when they are wrong (my posts included), or are out of line. I have had a fair number of my posts removed, but I don't hold it against him or the pastor as it is their web site. We as members are in a sense guests and to post on a forum is an extended privilege.

I stumbled on the drug thread quite by accident, as I hadn't posted here in quite some time, but as a Christian physician who trained at loma Linda, I felt I had an obligation to come on and try to balance what I considered to be a very problematic discussion.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but this was not my intent.

Stan
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Dalfie

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2008, 07:18:52 PM »
Speaking for myself, I'm not offended. I just believe that even the best of topics require a rest sometimes.
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newbie

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2008, 08:20:51 AM »
Quote from: Dalfie on August 17, 2008, 07:18:52 PM
Speaking for myself, I'm not offended. I just believe that even the best of topics require a rest sometimes.
 

Yes, especially where there is a gray area ....  these topics need a rest.   8-)
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colporteur

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2008, 09:17:58 AM »
Not only in this arena of discussion but in many I believe that we should be carefgul not to let our "experience" over-ride what God has clearly told us.
Our experience is often not a reliable indicator and is apt to give us a bias that is not accurate.

On another forum a person rejected SOP statements on self abuse. Her experience led her  to believe that what EGW stated was not applicable or accurate because so called science "proved" otherwise. It became obvious that self abuse was her practice therefore her experience dominated her thinking.

I am concerned when we think it is agreeable to place certain topics in files that are relatively unimportant when we are told that they are very important particuarly in the last days when everything is of significant importance.

I too wish to offend no one and while a bit more than concerned over this topic have never been angry.
 I  believe we should not mix SDA standards with those of the world. What I mean is that we should not use the ignorance, perhaps innocent ignorance of the world as a rationalization for considering our people who have great light shining on our paths to be equally and innocently ignorant. I do not think it unfair to consider it rebellion when our people continue in a lifestlye that is clearly of the world and harmful to health. I do not think it unfair to consider it a lack of faith for people to eccentially say, God cannot or will not work with the counsel He has given us therefore I must do otherwise. There are those of our people especially new converts who are not rebelling and do not lack faith they just are innocently ignorant. These people need accurate information that supports and is in harmony with Inspiration. Since we do not always know a person's experience it is not wise to categorize them in their expereince because we erring mortals are often wrong. On the other hand it is not presumption but faith to encourage our people to trust in the methods of treatment and healing that God has given us opposed to saying, that just doesn't work.
     I think, or at least hope that we all agree that natural methods of healing and treatment are not given enough emphasis, trust, and practice in our church.
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GraceVessel

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2008, 10:02:04 AM »
Quote from: colporteur on August 18, 2008, 09:17:58 AM
Not only in this arena of discussion but in many I believe that we should be carefgul not to let our "experience" over-ride what God has clearly told us.
Our experience is often not a reliable indicator and is apt to give us a bias that is not accurate.

I am concerned when we think it is agreeable to place certain topics in files that are relatively unimportant when we are told that they are very important particuarly in the last days when everything is of significant importance.

I too wish to offend no one and while a bit more than concerned over this topic have never been angry.
 I  believe we should not mix SDA standards with those of the world. What I mean is that we should not use the ignorance, perhaps innocent ignorance of the world as a rationalization for considering our people who have great light shining on our paths to be equally and innocently ignorant. I do not think it unfair to consider it rebellion when our people continue in a lifestlye that is clearly of the world and harmful to health. I do not think it unfair to consider it a lack of faith for people to eccentially say, God cannot or will not work with the counsel He has given us therefore I must do otherwise. There are those of our people especially new converts who are not rebelling and do not lack faith they just are innocently ignorant. These people need accurate information that supports and is in harmony with Inspiration. Since we do not always know a person's experience it is not wise to categorize them in their expereince because we erring mortals are often wrong. On the other hand it is not presumption but faith to encourage our people to trust in the methods of treatment and healing that God has given us opposed to saying, that just doesn't work.
     I think, or at least hope that we all agree that natural methods of healing and treatment are not given enough emphasis, trust, and practice in our church.

Couple of points:

1) It is essential that we as Christian's convey and support the inerrancy of the Bible and the validity of EGW/SOP and the  counsel it has provided us for these last years/days of the worlds history.

2) Experience is a good teacher and when combined with apt counsel from the bible and EGW/SOP... provides a balanced context to help apply principles in a timely, Christlike and correct way.

3) My viewpoint and opinion should never suffice as "proof" for another person, I am only to direct the hearer/reader to the source of all wisdom so that they can drink a full glass of Christ's grace for their daily needs and learn directly of and through Him.  My interpretation on how to "apply EGW/SOP" especially in areas on which there are myriad and conflicting counsels/interpretations, should suffice to myself and I should not "project" my views regarding my interpretation regarding truth and/or the interpretation thereof.  Each person must fully "flesh out" and prove what is good and acceptable, and what context to accept truth in.

4) I fully concur that we should as much as possible work to remove anything that "slows or mitigates" our walk with Jesus.  This includes diet, worship, family, entertainment, fellowship, social interaction, how we witness, etc.

5) That being said I will not "confer on those that don't measure up" a spiritual "label" of being rejected, unfit, or deficient.  Further, I am not going to judge a person as unfit for leadership that is fat, unhealthy, and/or old-young, etc... I will base their mettle for office/leadership based off their spiritual maturity and how dynamic their walk with God is - which includes any one of a number of factors.  There is a major disconnect in my opinion in the acceptance/rejecting of a person solely based on their conformity to EGW/SOP health practices as if not eating eggs or cheese gives a person some "extra credit" that qualifies them as "super Christian".

Since we do not always know a person's experience it is not wise to categorize them in their expereince because we erring mortals are often wrong. On the other hand it is not presumption but faith to encourage our people to trust in the methods of treatment and healing that God has given us opposed to saying, that just doesn't work.

This statement is a conundrum and conflicts itself and I do not understand it's antithetical meaning?  Perhaps, I am not reading it correctly.

My opinion is mine alone, and I take responsibility for what I type and say.  Sometimes, to my detriment, I am to pointed in my commentary.  My goal is to draw strength from and be instructed by these boards.  There is very good commentary and counsel here.

It deepens my understanding.

Best regards,

Gracevessel
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SDA4Life

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2008, 01:46:46 PM »
Quote from: colporteur on August 18, 2008, 09:17:58 AM
I think, or at least hope that we all agree that natural methods of healing and treatment are not given enough emphasis, trust, and practice in our church.

Definitely agree!
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Larry Lyons

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2008, 04:45:58 PM »
The original guidelines for participation on the forum were lost when we were hacked. Before we post the "official rules"  again, I would like to elicit some input from the members. What should be in the "guidelines" statement for participation?

Along those lines, although it was not in the original guidelines, the pastor has pointed out that this is a discussion forum. Although Bible verses and EGW quotes are certainly welcome, but should not be the bulk of our participation. Discussion is the key word. The pastor has said that he doesn't read long quotes and long series of quotes. I have a suspicion that that may be true of others as well. 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 04:47:45 PM by Larry Lyons »
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Raven

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2008, 04:58:25 PM »
Quote from: Larry Lyons on October 16, 2008, 04:45:58 PM
The original guidelines for participation on the forum were lost when we were hacked. Before we post the "official rules"  again, I would like to elicit some input from the members. What should be in the "guidelines" statement for participation?

Along those lines, although it was not in the original guidelines, the pastor has pointed out that this is a discussion forum. Although Bible verses and EGW quotes are certainly welcome, but should not be the bulk of our participation. Discussion is the key word. The pastor has said that he doesn't read long quotes and long series of quotes. I have a suspicion that that may be true of others as well. 

I plead guilty.  I don't tend to read long quotes, either.  Short, to the point quotes from either the Bible or the SOP are very helpful, but my eyes start to glaze over if they are too long.  But then, how long is too long?  One guideline that would be nice, although maybe hard to enforce is that all ad hominem attacks should be prohibited.  We should be able to agree or disagree on issues and various subjects without questioning the motives and sincerity of each other.  Of course, as a moderator, I realize that you have to make certain judgment calls relating to the agenda of some posters, but it seems that it should be off limits to the rest of us peasants.
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Larry Lyons

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2008, 08:35:34 PM »
Quote from: Raven on October 16, 2008, 04:58:25 PM
I plead guilty.  I don't tend to read long quotes, either.  Short, to the point quotes from either the Bible or the SOP are very helpful, but my eyes start to glaze over if they are too long.  But then, how long is too long?  One guideline that would be nice, although maybe hard to enforce is that all ad hominem attacks should be prohibited.  We should be able to agree or disagree on issues and various subjects without questioning the motives and sincerity of each other.  Of course, as a moderator, I realize that you have to make certain judgment calls relating to the agenda of some posters, but it seems that it should be off limits to the rest of us peasants.
Raven, I agree that it should be a given that ad hominum attacks are out of line. That shouldn't happen. Along with that, assigning of motives which is a form of "mind reading" is also a bad practice. We ought to be able to disagree and still have a satisfactory discussion rather than become angry, accusatory and contentious. It is OK to let the other person have the last word. It doesn't have to be experienced as a win-lose situation.
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newbie

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2008, 10:02:06 AM »
so Larry does this put a damper on proof texting?   :?

newbie
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Larry Lyons

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2008, 06:55:28 PM »
Quote from: newbie on October 17, 2008, 10:02:06 AM
so Larry does this put a damper on proof texting?   :?

newbie
That is not the intention, Newbie. The pastor has brought this up at least twice and the point he was making as I understand it is to talk to one another rather than mostly just using quotes. Sometimes we get involved in posting long seemingly contradicting quotes back and forth in an argument. The other thing the pastor has cautioned about is long dissertations that seem designed to preach on the forum rather than discuss. I think it is perfectly appropriate to use Scripture and EGW statements that fit what we are trying to say. We certainly don't wish to inhiibit using Scripture or EGW. The pastor was referring to the long posts that consist almost entirely of quotes. Sometimes 2 or 3 long posts in a row that mostly contain quotes.
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Ed Sutton

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2008, 08:42:16 AM »
Too long posts are when, by the end :

If with the poster (The first part is forgotten) - then the reader will also.

The middle is muddy even to the poster - it is to the reader also.

then the conclusion makes no sense or is difficult to grasp because it was buried under tons and tons. 

Like when the 5000 character limit stops me 3 times in one post.


That is a tendency I have fight against.    Part of the damage from cerebral palsy.

The solution is first draft, second refining draft, third outline, fourth post.

When ever a post drones - it wasn't prepared with the first draft, second refining draft, third outline, fourth post - steps.

It's a quickie sermon - everyone got lost in it's wandering -  even the preparer.

It is not the work of the Holy Spirit, to be non-understandable if something worth while needs to be said.

That's one thing I realized when I read 1st Corinthinans chapters 12, 13, 14, and reflected upon it.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 08:45:13 AM by Ed Sutton »
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Grateful for Psalms 32 and Titus 2:10 While it is true that God gives the message from Scripture and SOP. The taste I give to others about the message sells it or kills it, I learn to walk it well & cook it well & eat it myself, before I preach it.  Then the SDA message appeals by His righteousness.

Tammy

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Re: An important Forum Guideline
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2009, 01:33:38 PM »
Quote from: Larry Lyons on August 13, 2008, 05:32:25 PM
Agatha and Raven, I am familiar with 2 Adventist discussion forums whose members are probably in general more conservative in their views than many on this one,

Larry, could I have the website addresses for the other Adventist forums you refer to here?
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