Are Drugs Still Drugs ?

[colporteur]

I have found it interesting that an increasing number of formerly conservative church leaders and members still hold that drama is still drama, that rock music is still rock music... but drugs are no longer drugs...or at least SOP counsel no longer is valid today in this area.

Some who say they they indeed follow the SOP in this area claim that they simply accept a few emmergency exceptions to the rule. The trouble with this claim is that the exceptions seem to include a whole host of situations that are not emmergencies and where there is safe and simple effective alternative treatments.

I believe when we stand firm on certain, or all other areas of the SOP but yield in one area there is a bias involved that comes from a personal experience that would weaken resolve.

Incidently, I will take every time, the substanciated Testimony of Jesus over contemporary practitioners and practicers who reject such in favor of... "what else could I do?"






Notice from Revival Sermons: Any health or medical information appearing on revivalsermons.org is not intended to substitute for professional medical advice. If you have questions or concerns regarding your physical or mental health, please seek assistance from a qualified healthcare provider.

[Raven]

I think one of the problems we have today is that isn't always easy to separate drugs from natural remedies.  When does a legitimate herbal preparation cease to be so and become a drug?  Is everything in a pill or shot to be considered a drug?  There was nothing in Sister White's day that was equivalent to antibiotics.  They hadn't been invented yet.  Is a vaccination equivalent to a drug, or is it a natural remedy?  She was vaccinated for smallpox, and yet we have many Adventist who are opposed to vaccinations.  We need a better definition of terms.  I haven't really seen one, yet.  In the mean time, I think we need to cut everyone a little slack, and not sound as judgmental as some have.  And maybe we can pray for each other that we may each come to a better understanding of this issue.

I find this quotation interesting:   

Drug medication, as it is generally practiced, is a curse. Educate away from drugs. Use them less and less, and depend more upon hygienic agencies; then nature will respond to God's physicians--pure air, pure water, proper exercise, a clear conscience. Those who persist in the use of tea, coffee, and flesh meats will feel the need of drugs, but many might recover without one grain of medicine if they would obey the laws of health. Drugs need seldom be used. [IN HARMONY WITH THESE WORDS WAS MRS. WHITE'S COUNSEL WHEN ASKED CONCERNING THE USE OF QUININE IN THE TREATMENT OF MALARIA. HER SON, WHO TRAVELED WITH HER AND ASSISTED HER, REPORTS THE FOLLOWING:
     "ONE TIME WHILE WE WERE IN AUSTRALIA, A BROTHER WHO HAD BEEN ACTING AS A MISSIONARY IN THE ISLANDS, TOLD MOTHER OF THE SICKNESS AND DEATH OF HIS FIRST-BORN SON. HE WAS SERIOUSLY AFFLICTED WITH MALARIA, AND HIS FATHER WAS ADVISED TO GIVE HIM QUININE, BUT IN VIEW OF THE COUNSEL IN THE TESTIMONIES TO AVOID THE USE OF QUININE HE REFUSED TO ADMINISTER IT, AND HIS SON DIED. WHEN HE MET SISTER WHITE, HE ASKED HER THIS QUESTION: 'WOULD I HAVE SINNED TO GIVE THE BOY QUININE WHEN I KNEW OF NO OTHER WAY TO CHECK MALARIA AND WHEN THE PROSPECT WAS THAT HE WOULD DIE WITHOUT IT?' IN REPLY SHE SAID, 'NO, WE ARE EXPECTED TO DO THE BEST WE CAN.'" --W. C. WHITE LETTER, SEPTEMBER 10, 1935.--COMPILERS.]--Counsels on Health, p. 261 (1890).

While we can quibble about W.C. White's memory and truthfulness all we want, I find it hard to believe that he made that up, and I think it shows that Ellen White (and the Lord who inspired her writings) is merciful and reasonable.

[colporteur]

Raven;

Do you think doctors today are using simple natural remedies?
How many are using drugs only in an actual emergency ?
How many are  sincerely  attempting natural remedies ?
We seem to be saying alot these days "but we have to do what we have to do.

[Raven]

Raven;

Do you think doctors today are using simple natural remedies?
How many are using drugs only in an actual emergency ?
How many are  sincerely  attempting natural remedies ?
We seem to be saying alot these days "but we have to do what we have to do.

1--For the most part, no.
2--No question that drugs are over prescribed.  This is recognized, even by many in the mainstream of the medical profession.
3--probably few, although among our customers, there is probably a higher percentage in that category than in the average population.   Of course, most of them are not Adventists, and many are not even Christians.

I'm not professing to have all the answers.  I just don't think it is as simple, or as cut and dried, as some would think.  And, I think it would be good to try and be as understanding and as nonjudgmental as possible when dealing with those around us who are dealing with serious health issues.  When Jesus healed the man at the Pool of Bethesda (a man who had brought his disease upon himself by his decadent lifestyle), He uttered no words of censure or condemnation.  He only asked if he wanted to be healed.  Then, after healing him, He said, "Go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon thee."

I believe that "drugs," however one may define it, should be rarely used.  But then we're into the question of what is a drug?  It may be this uncertainty that is causing much of the confusion among Adventists, rather than blatant refusal of the guidelines in the SOP.

I'm not defending the use of drugs; I'm just not always sure how to differentiate between what is a legitimate, natural remedy, as opposed to a "drug."  Some (like lipitor, prozac, etc., are obvious; some are not so obvious).  If some one can help me make a clear cut distinction, I would be eternally grateful.

Just don't yell at me and call me an apostate liberal lackey for the AMA.

[reaching4heaven]

I'm not professing to have all the answers.  I just don't think it is as simple, or as cut and dried, as some would think.  And, I think it would be good to try and be as understanding and as nonjudgmental as possible when dealing with those around us who are dealing with serious health issues. 

I agree. I read a lot out of Loma Linda Messages and other health quotes yesterday and have more questions than answers. I think everyone should know how the body functions, be aware that there are options besides the Rx route and make their own decisions based on facts from their own studies. Few understand the workings of the gift of our body the Lord gave us and the alternatives to Rx. I believe that is the main part of our health message and we have gotten off target.

Just don't yell at me and call me an apostate liberal lackey for the AMA.

Too funny. 

[colporteur]

Just don't yell at me and call me an apostate liberal lackey for the AMA.

Now Raven have you ever heard me yell ? 

[Dalfie]

Now Raven have you ever heard me yell ? 

Hmmm.... Do I still have your phone number...


Well, things really aren't simple.... I have recently developed a totally unexpected (aka, no risk factors involved) condition where if I don't have it treated, I will have permanent damage. Am I to forgo treatment to avoid drugs? I have searched high and low, and have found nothing natural that will help the situation. In fact, the natural remedy websites say that natural remedies are ineffective, and that surgery is my only option. Now, I've done weeks of charcoal poultices "just in case", but have seen little benefit, other than some reduction of side effects of treatment. Soon, if God doesn't see fit to heal me first, I will undergo what I understand to be minor surgery... do I avoid drugs to the point of asking for no anesthesia? I don't think the procedure will go well if I do that. At this point in my life, I believe that the treatment of this is warranted... what IS under my control is what type of pain relief post-op I use... To date, when I've been given a prescription for pain meds, I have either shredded or burned the paper (the docs laugh when I say I don't want it, and tell me to take the paper with me just in case)... and usually use nothing, or in the rare occasion the pain is unbearable, a day or so of over the counter pain medication.

When I read these discussions, if I were to allow myself to, I could really feel inadequate and sinful for accepting treatment. On the other hand, I am not dealing with a long term treatment situation. Supposedly, in 1-2 months, this will all be history. (while recurrance is not totally ruled out). When I read the relevant quotes, I don't see something so rigid that I am wrong to accept treatment when I cannot find any other remedy. What does one do when time limits the ability to hold out for natural remedies?

I can tell you what I do know.. I feel a call to even GREATER healthy living commitment.. while the doctors see my problem as totally out of the blue, I believe that healthy living can prevent all sorts of things we don't really understand yet.

[Raven]

Now Raven have you ever heard me yell ? 

Not yet.   But, unless you lost it, you still have my work phone # and could call at any time to try and straighten me out.  However, since my wife hasn't been able to do so in 25 years, your chances probably aren't that good.    Of course that fact that she's put up with me for 25 years must be worth something.

[Larry Lyons]

I believe that we can all agree that the Holy spirit does not contradict Himself. The Spirit of Prophecy does not make statements that are contradictory. There may seem to be statements that seem tp support opposite points of view. The danger is to think that an SOP quote that appears to support our favored point of view trumps every quote that seems to support an opposite point of view. When this is done with the Bible we all agree tht it is a misuse of scripture. It is the same with the SOP.

I am sure that God is not pleased when we have "quote fights" with each side slinging EGW quotes at  each other  as if to say "my quote is better than your quote." In the process we often imply or clearly state that the other person is dishonest or is not a "good" Adventist or a real Christian. It should be obvious that in doing this we are not reflecting the purpose for which God gave us the Spirit of Prophecy, which is to help prepare us to be sealed, to have the mind and character of Jesus so that we can stand through the time of trouble.

Folks, this should not be. I admit that I am as guilty as others and as such do not do a good job as moderator. For this I am sorry and I apologize to the group and especially to Pastor O'Ffill. The kinds of interactions that I am talking about do not reflect the purpose that he envisions for this forum, and it does not reflect the clear command of Jesus that we love one another.

As you have said, Raven, we need to cut each other some slack. We should never impugn other's motives or read other's minds as if we can know their thoughts and feelings. The unwillingness to follow Ellen White's admonition to always put other's actions and statements in the best possible light has probably caused more mischief in the church than anything else. She also said that we will never agree with one another on every scriptural interpretation. That could be extrapolated to include her writings as well. However, she said we should never allow that to disrupt our unity in the faith.

We must be kind to one another, and not let pride keep us out of the kingdom.

[Raven]

I believe that we can all agree that the Holy spirit does not contradict Himself. The Spirit of Prophecy does not make statements that are contradictory. There may seem to be statements that seem tp support opposite points of view. The danger is to think that an SOP quote that appears to support our favored point of view trumps every quote that seems to support an opposite point of view. When this is done with the Bible we all agree tht it is a misuse of scripture. It is the same with the SOP.

I am sure that God is not pleased when we have "quote fights" with each side slinging EGW quotes at  each other  as if to say "my quote is better than your quote." In the process we often imply or clearly state that the other person is dishonest or is not a "good" Adventist or a real Christian. It should be obvious that in doing this we are not reflecting the purpose for which God gave us the Spirit of Prophecy, which is to help prepare us to be sealed, to have the mind and character of Jesus so that we can stand through the time of trouble.

The kinds of interactions that I am talking about do not reflect the purpose that he envisions for this forum, and it does not reflect the clear command of Jesus that we love one another.

We should never impugn other's motives or read other's minds as if we can know their thoughts and feelings. The unwillingness to follow Ellen White's admonition to always put other's actions and statements in the best possible light has probably caused more mischief in the church than anything else. She also said that we will never agree with one another on every scriptural interpretation. That could be extrapolated to include her writings as well. However, she said we should never allow that to disrupt our unity in the faith.

We must be kind to one another, and not let pride keep us out of the kingdom.

Well said, Larry.  Thanks for helping us to keep things in perspective.

[newbie]

Larry,
Does your post mean that we do not post SOP on this thread anymore?  I just happened to find a really good one that seems to answer the question at hand.  I hope I'm not in error by posting SOP on this forum thread??? 

"Christ is no longer in this world in person, to go through
our cities and towns and villages, healing the sick; but He
has commissioned us to carry forward the medical missionary
work that He began. In this work we are to do our very
best. Institutions for the care of the sick are to be
established, where men and women suffering from disease may
be placed under the care of God-fearing physicians and
nurses, and be treated without drugs. p. 168, Para. 1,
[9T].

Notice from Revival Sermons: Any health or medical information appearing on revivalsermons.org is not intended to substitute for professional medical advice. If you have questions or concerns regarding your physical or mental health, please seek assistance from a qualified healthcare provider.

[Dalfie]

I think that is an excellent quote, Newbie.. I wish we'd taken this commission more seriously than we (as a people) have to date... I have met some wonderful people who aim to fill this commission to the best of their ability... I am thankful for the benefit they have been to many people.

[colporteur]

Though it takes more time I wonder if it would actually be better to quote  more Inspired statements and give less counsel about those statements and less "but what about this" referencing our own logic and rationalizations. If someone is taking the SOP out of context it would seem that the more that is quoted the more apt we are to get accurate context and a right view of the subject.

[SDA4Life]

I do not wish to hijack this thread or divert the topic, but I want to examine some counsel on a different topic to help us understand the central question of "are drugs still drugs?"

In 1869 EGW wrote the following:

You place upon your table butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them, … and then you come to the meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do you think your prayers go? – 2T 362

Eggs should not be placed upon your table. -- 2T p. 400

That is a simple statement that tells us that we should not use eggs. So that should settle it, right? Well, here is what EGW wrote in 1901:

Eggs contain properties which are remedial agencies in counteracting poisons.  And while warnings have been given against the use of these articles of diet in families where the children were addicted to, yes, steeped in, habits of self-abuse; yet we should not consider it a denial of principle to use eggs of hens which are well cared for and suitably fed. -- Counsels on Diets and Foods p 204

So did eggs change between 1869 and 1901 or were eggs still eggs? Should people in 1901 have discarded eggs or used them? Is it OK for adults to use eggs and not children? The question for us today is which counsel do we follow? Are eggs still eggs? Because if they are shouldn't adults be using them to counteract certain poisons in their bodies?

Of course these questions may somewhat be answered with the following statement (also written in 1901):

"The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs..." CD p. 204

But what should the people in 1902 have done? Discard eggs or use them?

How about the following counsel:

There seemed to be a bicycle craze. Money was spent to gratify an enthusiasm in this direction that might better, far better, have been invested in building houses of worship where they are greatly needed.  - 8T p. 51

You would not be purchasing bicycles, which you could do without, but would be receiving the blessing of God in exercising your physical powers in a less expensive way. -- RH Aug. 21, 1894

From my research their are a number of EGW statements regarding bicycles and none of them speak favorably of bicycles. So the question is: Are bicycles still bicycles? Should we condemn the purchase of them as EGW did? Or, for some reason is it now OK to purchase a bicycle?

Just some questions to ponder.

[GraceVessel]

I believe that we can all agree that the Holy spirit does not contradict Himself. The Spirit of Prophecy does not make statements that are contradictory. There may seem to be statements that seem tp support opposite points of view. The danger is to think that an SOP quote that appears to support our favored point of view trumps every quote that seems to support an opposite point of view. When this is done with the Bible we all agree tht it is a misuse of scripture. It is the same with the SOP.

I am sure that God is not pleased when we have "quote fights" with each side slinging EGW quotes at  each other  as if to say "my quote is better than your quote." In the process we often imply or clearly state that the other person is dishonest or is not a "good" Adventist or a real Christian. It should be obvious that in doing this we are not reflecting the purpose for which God gave us the Spirit of Prophecy, which is to help prepare us to be sealed, to have the mind and character of Jesus so that we can stand through the time of trouble.

Folks, this should not be. I admit that I am as guilty as others and as such do not do a good job as moderator. For this I am sorry and I apologize to the group and especially to Pastor O'Ffill. The kinds of interactions that I am talking about do not reflect the purpose that he envisions for this forum, and it does not reflect the clear command of Jesus that we love one another.

As you have said, Raven, we need to cut each other some slack. We should never impugn other's motives or read other's minds as if we can know their thoughts and feelings. The unwillingness to follow Ellen White's admonition to always put other's actions and statements in the best possible light has probably caused more mischief in the church than anything else. She also said that we will never agree with one another on every scriptural interpretation. That could be extrapolated to include her writings as well. However, she said we should never allow that to disrupt our unity in the faith.

We must be kind to one another, and not let pride keep us out of the kingdom.

Larry, thank you for your timely counsel.  I know in the past month, with all the stress in my job situation I've been a bit too pointed in my responses on several threads and your counsel speaks very loud to me at this time.

Using the counsel God has provided for us through EGW writings to help encourage and strengthen companionship and caring (sometimes this gets lost sight of when we differ in opinion) should be our greatest resource and goal - love others as God has loved us.

People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.

Being there for others speaks volumes for practical Christianity and fellowship and bonds us together as one.

Best regards,

Gracevessel