Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?

[newbie]

But my question is,"What is sin?"  The breaking of the 10 commandments?  Is failing to show active and Christlike 'fruits of the Spirit" sin?  Is the omission of helping a neighbor in need sin?  Do we recognize exactly what sin is?  Is feeling frustration with the man who stalls me in traffic sin?  Can a human experience perfection when righteous anger is felt?  And can righteous anger ever be identified and justified? 

Hi El,
I like what Raven said about us sometimes taking things out on the sinner rather than the sin.  We must be careful.
As for the Law, this is how I'd like to see it portrayed.  The Law is really a law of love.  And, that is why it cannot be changed and why Jesus had to pay the price for us.  We are to Love God with all our heart and soul (1-4), and love God's creation as ourselves (5-10).  If we do that, through the faith and love of Jesus, we will be free.  Then, we will show all the fruit without even trying as it will radiate from within.  We will not be able to contain the love that we have for Jesus and will do His will on this earth to glorify His name.
ARe we there yet?  No, but moving forward in grace and mercy!
newbie

[El]

Hi El,
I like what Raven said about us sometimes taking things out on the sinner rather than the sin.  We must be careful.
As for the Law, this is how I'd like to see it portrayed.  The Law is really a law of love.  And, that is why it cannot be changed and why Jesus had to pay the price for us.  We are to Love God with all our heart and soul (1-4), and love God's creation as ourselves (5-10).  If we do that, through the faith and love of Jesus, we will be free.  Then, we will show all the fruit without even trying as it will radiate from within.  We will not be able to contain the love that we have for Jesus and will do His will on this earth to glorify His name.
ARe we there yet?  No, but moving forward in grace and mercy!
newbie

But my question is when will we be there?  Time is short.  Everyone I talk to says that they are still not there yet. That they depend on grace and mercy.  I very well concur with that belief.  Have you ever met someone who thinks that they have reached that point?  Is that when we will truely be Christ-like?  Are there souls who live on this earth who have reached the place in their life where they will never fall and are past the point of sinning?  Do you understand what I am trying to say?  We all (me included) believe that we can be saved from our sin.  OK.  Now when will we have the assurance that we have reached that point.  Have you ever met a Christian who thinks that he no longer makes mistakes?  In other words, has any person living today moved to the point where they have reached perfection?  Is that not the goal of a true Christian?  Otherwise, being saved from sinning would be somewhat futile.  We can be saved, through the blood of Christ, by claiming forgiveness from our human mistakes--never believing that open sin is acceptable.  But will I ever come to the point, when I go to sleep at night, that I no longer believe that I have sins to be forgiven because I am saved from sin?  I know that I can not be saved in sin, but being saved from sin is forever ongoing.  If we can come to that point in our life, then we will have reached perfection.

I wonder, on the day of the death of Sr. White, if she had reached the perfection for which she longed, or was she still depending on Christ's blood to cover her unrecognized mistakes.   

[Deborah Risinger]

El...perhaps an explanation would be better than a definition.  We can go through the scriptures as some have,,but perhaps something different....

"Sin" is an "illegal life form" created, embrace, perpatrated by Lucifer.  "Sin was "his" creation.

"Sin" then took on a life form of it's own and did what it does "instinctively"..."it" destroyed Lucifer and everything else in it's path.  When humans became infected with sin,,,,it did/does what it does,,,"destroys."

"Sin" is an "illegal life form" in Elohim's universe.  "It" was never suppose to exist...how do we explain a life form that was not suppose to exist??  With characteristics and only produce "sorrows."

  It is defined by it's characteristics,,,we all know what they are because we are all effected by them.  "It" is apposed "instinctively" to all that Elohim is,,,IE...purity, holiness, righteousness and all the "beauties" that are "the essence of GOD."

How do we "perfectly" define a "life form"  ...(.that has "no personality of its self "but" produces them)  that was never suppose to exist in the first place?? 

God says in the Bible "Behold the Lamb of God"  Jn 1:36   NOT "understand" but "behold."  Explanations may be all we can ask for sometimes.

"Sin" is a virus,,,it produces malformations of life.

Sometimes explanations come by comparing opposites...."light/dark...up/down...good/bad"...this "life form  "sin" will be destroyed along with satan, and death.  Praise God for that !!!

God Keep Us All
Deborah   

[newbie]

But my question is when will we be there?  Time is short.  Everyone I talk to says that they are still not there yet. That they depend on grace and mercy.  I very well concur with that belief.  Have you ever met someone who thinks that they have reached that point?  Is that when we will truely be Christ-like?  Are there souls who live on this earth who have reached the place in their life where they will never fall and are past the point of sinning?  Do you understand what I am trying to say?  We all (me included) believe that we can be saved from our sin.  OK.  Now when will we have the assurance that we have reached that point.  Have you ever met a Christian who thinks that he no longer makes mistakes?  In other words, has any person living today moved to the point where they have reached perfection?  Is that not the goal of a true Christian?  Otherwise, being saved from sinning would be somewhat futile.  We can be saved, through the blood of Christ, by claiming forgiveness from our human mistakes--never believing that open sin is acceptable.  But will I ever come to the point, when I go to sleep at night, that I no longer believe that I have sins to be forgiven because I am saved from sin?  I know that I can not be saved in sin, but being saved from sin is forever ongoing.  If we can come to that point in our life, then we will have reached perfection.

I wonder, on the day of the death of Sr. White, if she had reached the perfection for which she longed, or was she still depending on Christ's blood to cover her unrecognized mistakes.   

Hi El,
All I can suggest is that you try the things I have put on this forum under "getting self out"  I have posted on that thread several things to actually DO to make ours a closer walk with Jesus.  I have tried all of these things and to know that they DO work if done daily.  I have one more installment that I will post in late August as I"m not quite done with trying it out.  These are all tried and true. 

here is the link to this spot on the forum:



http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=2435.0


Please let me know if you have questions or if you would like examples of what I've done. 

[Raven]

But my question is when will we be there?  Time is short.  Everyone I talk to says that they are still not there yet. That they depend on grace and mercy.  I very well concur with that belief.  Have you ever met someone who thinks that they have reached that point?  Is that when we will truely be Christ-like?  Are there souls who live on this earth who have reached the place in their life where they will never fall and are past the point of sinning?  Do you understand what I am trying to say?  We all (me included) believe that we can be saved from our sin.  OK.  Now when will we have the assurance that we have reached that point.  Have you ever met a Christian who thinks that he no longer makes mistakes?  In other words, has any person living today moved to the point where they have reached perfection?  Is that not the goal of a true Christian?  Otherwise, being saved from sinning would be somewhat futile.  We can be saved, through the blood of Christ, by claiming forgiveness from our human mistakes--never believing that open sin is acceptable.  But will I ever come to the point, when I go to sleep at night, that I no longer believe that I have sins to be forgiven because I am saved from sin?  I know that I can not be saved in sin, but being saved from sin is forever ongoing.  If we can come to that point in our life, then we will have reached perfection.

I wonder, on the day of the death of Sr. White, if she had reached the perfection for which she longed, or was she still depending on Christ's blood to cover her unrecognized mistakes.   

Somewhere the the book, Steps to Christ there is a statement to the effect that the closer we come to Jesus the more sinful we will appear in our own eyes.  In GC we are told that those who go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble will look back on their lives and see very little that was good.  So, I'm not sure that at any time we will be able to say that we have arrived (until our feet leave the ground as we ascend to "meet the Lord in the air").  Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.  We can not do more than live up to all the light we have been shown.  One could take the position that the thief on the cross had not progressed as far in his sanctification process as the apostle Paul had (Paul, who referred to himself as the "chief of sinners"), but both had surrendered to Jesus so that the work of sanctification was going forward and upward.  I bellieve that if we think we have arrived we are on dangerous ground, the ground of self sufficiency and spiritual pride.  Paul said, Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  Phil. 3:12-14.

I hope I've helped some and not muddied the waters.

[El]

Somewhere the the book, Steps to Christ there is a statement to the effect that the closer we come to Jesus the more sinful we will appear in our own eyes.  In GC we are told that those who go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble will look back on their lives and see very little that was good.  So, I'm not sure that at any time we will be able to say that we have arrived (until our feet leave the ground as we ascend to "meet the Lord in the air").  Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.  We can not do more than live up to all the light we have been shown.  One could take the position that the thief on the cross had not progressed as far in his sanctification process as the apostle Paul had (Paul, who referred to himself as the "chief of sinners"), but both had surrendered to Jesus so that the work of sanctification was going forward and upward.  I bellieve that if we think we have arrived we are on dangerous ground, the ground of self sufficiency and spiritual pride.  Paul said, Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  Phil. 3:12-14.I hope I've helped some and not muddied the waters.

  Thankyou, Raven--you have not muddied the waters.  You have given me thoughts to ponder.  I have had the feeling while reading these posts that I was  one of the few who has not found the road to perfection.  And it scares me..  It is true---the closer I feel that I have come to Jesus the farther away I feel from reaching perfection.  WHen I pray I am convicted more of the mistakes that I make.  And I ask God for forgiveness and then I feel that I have so many more changes to make in my life just to live the fruits of the Holy Spirit.  Am I kind enough?  Am I meek enough?  And yet with all these things in mind we still need to be strong and stand for principal and truth.  Surely the commandments of Leviticus are important.  But I feel that it is just the beginning of a life led for Jesus.  If I die daily to sin, then maybe the day will come when I will have to die no more.

[Deborah Risinger]

Don't know if this will help or not..this is from the Biblical Research Institute

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/How%20Perfect%20Is%20Perfect.htm



Biblical Perfection

    One of the hindrances to living the Christian life successfully is failure to understand what the Bible teaches on the nature of sin and perfection. A grave misapprehension lies at the root of much of the false teaching on this subject. The Bible, in applying the term "perfection" to believers, never means "sinlessness." There are at least nine different Hebrew words and six Greek words translated "perfection." Noah is said to be "perfect in his generations" (Gen 6:9). Of Asa, the King of Judah, we read: "But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the Lord all his days" (1 Kings 15:14). "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2). "We speak wisdom among them that are the perfect" (1 Cor 2:6).

    The Bible writers are not saying that these men are sinless. The meaning is that of spiritual maturity, full grown spiritually, ripe in spiritual understanding, whole in response to god, keeping nothing back. A "perfect" Christian is one whose heart and mind are permanently committed to Christ, cannot be moved. Noah, Abraham, and Job were all declared to be "perfect" men. Yet the history of their lives shows that they were far from being sinless.

    If one's view of sin is shallow enough, sinless perfection would not be an impossible achievement. It is a defective view of sin that leads to a wrong understanding of perfection. If sin simply means a deliberate, willful doing of what is known to be wrong, then no Christian should commit this kind of sin. But if sin includes also a man's state of mind and heart, man's bias toward sin, sin as an indwelling tendency, then perfection presents a totally different picture.

What God Expects of His People
    There are some Christians who believe that it is possible in this life to reach a point in spiritual development, where the sinful nature is completely eradicated and therefore, no longer operative. The Bible does teach that the genuine Christian life is one of uniform and sustained victory over all known sin. The normal Christian experience should be one of victory and not constant defeat.

    Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Rom 6:11-15)

God's Blessings'
Deborah 

   

[V. Hahn]

Dear El,

You are definitely not alone.  I certainly struggle, too.  We need to die daily and let Christ live in us!

Dennis Priebe has a good sermon called, "What is Sin?"

It can be found here... http://www.audioverse.org/displayrecording/160/DennisPriebe-WhatIsSin

It might help!

Vicki

[Larry Lyons]

The English word "perfection" carrys with it the idea of ultimate perfection that is without a flaw of any kind. That idea comes to us from the Greek philosophers. It was not the Hebrew mindset of the Bible writers. Even the Greek words that are translated in the New Testament do not carry the connotation of absolute perfection. When we look at the context of nearly every word in the Bible translated as "perfect" it was speaking of someones relationship with God or the way they treated others.

J.R.Zurcher in his wonderful little book "What Inspiration Has to Say About Christian Perfection."deals with the subject very nicely by examining the lives of the Bible characters who were called perfect, and examining Ellen White's statements on the topic.

This is from the first chapter:
   "God's deeds are perfect because they are the outworking of His justice, His faithfulness, His uprightness, and His goodness. His ways are likewise perfect because they seek the good of all those who trust in Him. His law is also perfect because it is a law of love--a "law that gives freedom" (James 1:25) and is designed for human restoration. Perfect as well is His knowledge of all things, for it contains all wisdom and knowledge.

   "To understand that God's perfection refers to His merciful relationships with His creation already constitutes an initial clarification of the biblical meaning of the concept of perfection. This relationship is the perfect expression of God's character, and it is in this particular sense that Jesus exhorted Christians to "be perfect...as you heavenly father is perfect." (Matt. 5:48) It is important to emphasize this point, because as we will discover in the following pages, human perfection dwells not within human nature, but in the substance of our relationship with God and with our neighbor." (Zurcher, J.R. pp 24,25)

[Deborah Risinger]

Amen...that is "grace."

God's Blessings'
Deborah