Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?

[newbie]

robertparker,
The HS was with Jesus when he was in the wilderness.  And, the righteous saints will always have the HS with them.  
But, the HS was withdrawn at the cross or it is very likely that Jesus would not have died.

With further study/reading, this is not apparently truth.  Sorry....


The Story of Jesus ch. 8 The Temptation:  "As Christ left the Jordan, His face was lighted with the glory of God.  But after He entered the wilderness, this glory disappeared.
The sins of the world were upon Him, and His face showed such sorrow and anguish as man had never felt.  He was suffering for sinners."

(this bolded statement is the same statement that we read of Jesus on the cross)

Christ Tempted As We Are from  The Bible Students Library p. 4  "Alone He was to tread the path of temptation and exercise self-control stronger than hunger, ambition, or death."

Bible text:

Isa. 63: 3": I have trodden the winepress alone;




God Bless anyone that is still studying this subject.

[Robert Parker]

It does not come right and say it the way we would want it expressed.... but if you read carefully the bulk of the statements point to this...  If Jesus is separated from the Father ...........    Jesus feared that he would be separated forever from the Father.....  (Satan's temptation)........    His extreme agony and the tears of blood in the Garden when the Father begins to separate from Jesus because the sins of the whole world are being laid upon Him.  The Father will not have anything to do with sin and will never forgive sin.... He will forgive sinners through Jesus only due to the cross.

Here is another point to ponder....   if the HS was still with Jesus could He have died?

Another point....  only Jesus Himself could have endured the cross due to His own perfect character...

I think you are right Newbie! If Jesus was separated from God and went through the experiences associated with the second death, how could the HS be with Him?

[newbie]

I think you are right Newbie! If Jesus was separated from God and went through the experiences associated with the second death, how could the HS be with Him?

Amen Robert... nice to see you back.!!   

[Robert Parker]

With further study/reading, this is not apparently truth.  Sorry....
[/i][/i]

[Robert]
Don't be sorry Newbie! Thank you for making me take another look at this. Further study in the Desire of Ages seems to indicate that the HS was withdrawn from Jesus in the Wilderness, in Gethsemane and on the cross. It was the previous experience of having the HS with Him that sustained Him in these terrible trials.
Does that mean we will not have the HS with us during the Time of Trouble without a Mediator?

[V. Hahn]

All I know is that Jesus said He "would be with us alway, even unto the end of the world."  That's enough for me!

Vicki

[newbie]

With further study/reading, this is not apparently truth.  Sorry....

Don't be sorry Newbie! Thank you for making me take another look at this. Further study in the Desire of Ages seems to indicate that the HS was withdrawn from Jesus in the Wilderness, in Gethsemane and on the cross. It was the previous experience of having the HS with Him that sustained Him in these terrible trials.
Does that mean we will not have the HS with us during the Time of Trouble without a Mediator?

I was a bit confused by the quotes and did not see the question until Vicki answered....  Yes, I agree with Vicki that WE will not be without the HS all through....  Our prayers will go directly to the throne of God.  It only works because we will be without sin at that point in time.  Yes, wonderful to think that...

[Robert Parker]

All I know is that Jesus said He "would be with us alway, even unto the end of the world."  That's enough for me!

Vicki

That's enough for all of us to know Vicki! If He weren't we should surely perish in the Time of Trouble. I think angels will be present with us but I do think, like Jesus, we will often FEEL as though God has forsaken us.

Robert

[maskeenel]

If that is the conclusion of all, that Jesus was without HS when tempted then where is the example that He was tried  and tempted like us and yet without sin.  Are we concluding by accepting the scenario, if Jesus can do without the help of the HS and without the guidance of His Father in the time of trial, then we can do it also.  Basically I think that the conclusion of the matter is this, that we don't need any one but the power within us.
I don't buy this but I can do anything without the help of Christ who strengthen me.  Our big brother always drew His strength from the Father.  When the glory departed, I don't think that has anything to do with the Spirit but it has to do with the majestic power which repels evil and consumes all forms of evil.I believe that when the glory departed He was naked without the glory which protected Him.

It is like a General who doesnt have his uniform the sign of his power.  Jesus was without his uniform when he faced the Satan in the wilderness.  My father use to tell us that a pig can fight with the lion in the darkness of the night without any fear but when the day breaks the pig sees the majesty of the lion and becomes heartless. At that time the pig is consumed.  Yes when you are shrouded in darkness and there is no light your might and strength is invisible to the attacker.  But the fact remains the lion always know, he is a lion and an animal of strength and majestic powers but to the attacker everyone looks alike in the darkness of night.  The powers of Jesus were with Him and He never used them.  Yes the glory depart but the fact remains that he got his strength from the Holy Spirit which guided, taught and reminded Him at the time of temptation as to how he should conduct Himself.  Our Savior was a good  student and He encourages us to be good student also by studying the word.  "I will not leave you nor forsake you even in the time of trouble.  In person He may not be there but in His Spirit he is always there.  He only encourages us while the sun shines spend time studying the word so that the Spirit can remind you what to say and when to say in time of need. Basically Jesus knew the word which he learned at the feet of His mother.  He heavily relied on it and was reminded of the arsenal which He had in His quiver.

Let us not conclude that His example is that we should not rely on the Spirit but on ourselves.  God forbid.

[newbie]

This is misunderstood by many.... we cannot do it of ourselves... we will always have the HS with us.  ....  because of what Jesus did.... 

Recently this was clear from SOP that Jesus was fully aware of what He must do in the desert and on the cross... He must, as God, go over the ground where Adam had failed and do so to win the victory without supernatural help. 

We cannot do this without supernatural help....

Hope this is clear

[Robert Parker]

Sounds right to me maskeenel. Page 123 of DA plainly says that Jesus was fitted for the conflict in the Wilderness by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Just for interest, page 123 reminds me of the Trinity. We are fitted for all of our battles with Satan by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---123.

Robert

If that is the conclusion of all, that Jesus was without HS when tempted then where is the example that He was tried  and tempted like us and yet without sin.

[Robert Parker]

Christ defeated Satan the same way we are to defeat Satan. Through the power of the Holy Spirit. Had he used his own power even once, we would all be lost. And just like us, he got this power through prayer and fasting, and communion with the Holy Spirit.

For forty days He fasted and prayed. Weak and emaciated from hunger, worn and haggard with mental agony,...  Now was Satan's opportunity. Now he supposed that he could overcome Christ. {DA 118.1}

If Christ's confidence in God could be shaken, Satan knew that the victory in the whole controversy would be his. He could overcome Jesus. He hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in His Father, and work a miracle in His own behalf. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken. {DA 119.1}

So we know he had to have the spirit in the wilderness, as already stated by Newbie, but I'm still not sure about the cross though.
I hope you don't mind my jumping in. This topic is a good one to study.

This is only delayed by about 18 months Richard, but it is such a good study. I think that the final temptation of Jesus was to come down from the Cross. Perhaps it was through the Holy Spirit that He resisted that temptation. However, I believe that the HS would have left Jesus when all the sins of the world for all time were placed on Him. The Holy Spirit will not dwell in the presence of sin. If the HP were with Jesus at this time He would not have tasted the Second death experience. Jesus BECAME SIN for us and that is in REALITY and not just in imagination. If Jesus became sin for us the Holy Spirit would nave been nowhere near Him.

Robert

[Robert Parker]

I am wondering...would it be a misconseption to say...until one committs the unpardonable sin...is he/she completely without the Holy Spirit?

I think you are right Deborah! When all the sins of the world were placed on Jesus, He was reckoned to have committed the unpardonable sin of having rejected the Holy Spirit. This is an unfathomable mystery to us.

Robert

[Alpendave]

Sorry if someone alread brought up this point. I didn't have time to see if someone already made it. So here goes anywar:

Leviticus 5:11
But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

No oil (symbolic of the Holy Spirit) in the sin offering would seem to suggest that as the true sin offering, Jesus on the cross would have been separated from the Holy Spirit

[newbie]

Sorry if someone alread brought up this point. I didn't have time to see if someone already made it. So here goes anywar:

Leviticus 5:11
But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

No oil (symbolic of the Holy Spirit) in the sin offering would seem to suggest that as the true sin offering, Jesus on the cross would have been separated from the Holy Spirit

What a great find.  Symbolically, this makes sense.  Jesus tread the wine press alone.

[Alpendave]

Another aspect of this I heard from Morris Lewis was the symbolic meaning of the word Gethsemane. It means oil press. A stone was placed over the olive and used as a fulcrum for a beam that was then weighted at one end. The crushing weight on the fulcrum would press the oil out of the olives, symbolic of how the crushing weight of our sins pressed the Spirit out of Christ.