Revival Sermons

Studies in the Word => Difficult Bible Texts => Topic started by: newbie on September 10, 2018, 04:43:43 PM

Title: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 10, 2018, 04:43:43 PM
Seems that a lot of discussion debate center around whether things are literal or symbolic or maybe parallel?

Lion...  is this Jesus or Satan?  symbolic right
Leaven... is it good or bad?  literal and analogy symbol
time prophecies literal or symbolic?

do you see the problem?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 10, 2018, 04:46:44 PM
There is no problem when context is taken into consideration.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 11, 2018, 06:00:11 PM
There is no problem when context is taken into consideration.
 
not always do we have context....  there is inconsistency in some situations ..
for example:  the numbers in revelation or the numbers in prophecy and our people argue and argue over them constantly
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 11, 2018, 08:42:39 PM
"for example:  the numbers in revelation or the numbers in prophecy and our people argue and argue over them constantly"

What numbers are you referencing?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 12, 2018, 06:02:15 PM
from Newbie
Quote
Seems that a lot of discussion debate center around whether things are literal or symbolic or maybe parallel?

Lion...  is this Jesus or Satan?  symbolic right
Leaven... is it good or bad?  literal and analogy symbol
time prophecies literal or symbolic?

do you see the problem?

Then Raven said
Quote
There is no problem when context is taken into consideration. 

Lion - Revelation 5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Psalms 22:13  They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Proverbs 28:15  As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people.
Ezekiel 22:25  There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
1 Peter 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The lions refer to specific individuals and the characteristics of Lion's is applied to them. Two kinds of Lions symbolized.

Leaven - something that literally permeates, ferments, causes changes, and gas build up, makes grape juice into alcohol containing wine, causes secondary intoxication through alcohol buildup, is symbolic of whatever permeates and spoils something, or  symbolic of the gospel permeating a newly converted person with the  person  denoted as a "new" wineskin verses an admixture with false doctrines and a carnal heart ( old wineskin).  Leaven of the pharisees = hypocrisy

Time - God's coded references to a time specific prophecy the wicked are not understanding, by the teachable can learn. Reference to a literal 360 day long Jewish sacred calender year.

Numbers - Numbers integers that refer to units of time that God has coded to show the teachable and leave the proud in doubt about, or literal integers denoting how many of something, or how long till when, of how long from when.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 12, 2018, 06:15:11 PM
"for example:  the numbers in revelation or the numbers in prophecy and our people argue and argue over them constantly"

What numbers are you referencing?
numbers in revelation
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 13, 2018, 02:44:03 AM


What numbers are you referencing?
numbers in revelation

I'm not following you.  The only numbers I know of that are debated among SDA's are the 144,000--literal or symbolic.  And we've been  warned not to argue about that.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 13, 2018, 07:00:28 PM
you're kidding right? 
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 15, 2018, 01:19:22 PM
Quote
"for example:  the numbers in revelation or the numbers in prophecy and our people argue and argue over them constantly"

What numbers are you referencing?
numbers in revelation


Your answers are too vague to understand what you are asking/talking about. 
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 15, 2018, 04:26:18 PM
some examples aside from 144K

literal or symbolic?

the plagues
the sign or seal between God and His people
God's law
the Mark of God
the Mark of the beast
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 17, 2018, 07:23:07 PM
Quote
literal or symbolic?

the plagues
the sign or seal between God and His people
God's law
the Mark of God
the Mark of the beast

Symbolic plagues.  Now that is an interesting concept.

To me the other items in the list are all character related.   Is ones character literal or symbolic or based on principle?  I haven't heard these types of arguments.  Know what you believe or study to know what you believe on any subject.  I doubt if arguing with anyone over issues changes their mind.  I haven't seen that it is anything but frustrating and gets nowhere.

What do you think?


Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 18, 2018, 02:25:33 AM
some examples aside from 144K

literal or symbolic?

the plagues
the sign or seal between God and His people
God's law
the Mark of God
the Mark of the beast

I have not heard arguments among SDA's about these items.  Everyone I've talked to understands the plagues to be literal (and Ellen White says as much), the seal to be symbolic, as well as the mark of the beast.  I've never heard anyone suggest that God's law was anything but literal.  We've been warned off the ground of making some of these things too important.  I think we have enough clarity in the Bible and the SOP to keep us from going down the wrong path.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 18, 2018, 05:08:04 PM
my 2 cents:

the plagues-literal

the sign or seal between God and His people / the Mark of God - literal (third angel has writers inkhorn applies it or passes by ) (destroying angel can read it ) ( I found 5 published, 2 not published hits - seal destroying angel* read* )

Quote
What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption. The intelligent mind has seen the sign of the cross of Calvary in the Lord's adopted sons and daughters. The sin of the transgression of the law of God is taken away. They have on the wedding garment, and are obedient and faithful to all God's commands.  {Mar 243.6} 
     The Lord will not excuse those who know the truth if they do not in word and deed obey His commands.  {Mar 243.7} 

Quote
What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption (Letter 126, 1898).  {4BC 1161.4}
     The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel (Letter 12, 1886).  {4BC 1161.5} 
     (Revelation 7:2.) Seal Is a Settling Into Truth.--Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already; the judgments of God are now upon the land, to give us warning, that we may know what is coming (MS 173, 1902).  {4BC 1161.6}   


God's law - literal -

 (https://i.imgur.com/8PIrQaJ.jpg)   

(https://i.imgur.com/pRuG8Nb.jpg) 
sorry jpgs are not the clearest but these are the tablets Moses broke, were found during first gulf war, RCC put a worldwide squelch on but Taiwan sent a reporter anyway.  I talked to high ranking RCC Offical not long after and he corroborated their validity, wanted to know how I found out. 

the Mark of the beast - literal Civil/religious Government can identify and persecute - so they know who complies or not, The Investigative judgment tags it too  ( so destroying angel can read that too )

I can't see gravity or radio waves but they are literal.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 18, 2018, 08:15:38 PM
some of these have both a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning... do you see that?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 20, 2018, 02:07:07 AM
some of these have both a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning... do you see that?

Of course; so what's the problem?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 21, 2018, 03:13:53 PM
the 'clay' in Daniel two...  symbolic right? 
so what does it mean?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 21, 2018, 03:17:08 PM
I though that was understood, and even explained in the text.  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.  Dan. 2:42.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 21, 2018, 06:51:13 PM
iron clay - prophetic symbol

Quote
  43. Iron and Clay--Mingled Churchcraft and Statecraft.--We have come to a time when God's sacred work is represented by the feet of the image in which the iron was mixed with the miry clay.

God has a people, a chosen people, whose discernment must be sanctified, who must not become unholy by laying upon the foundation wood, hay, and stubble.

Every soul who is loyal to the commandments of God will see that the distinguishing feature of our faith is the seventh-day Sabbath. If the government would honor the Sabbath as God has commanded, it would stand in the strength of God and in defense of the faith once delivered to the saints.

But statesmen will uphold the spurious sabbath, and will mingle their religious faith with the observance of this child of the papacy, placing it above the Sabbath which the Lord has sanctified and blessed, setting it apart for man to keep holy, as a sign between Him and His people to a thousand generations.

The mingling of churchcraft and statecraft is represented by the iron and the clay.

This union is weakening all the power of the churches. This investing the church with the power of the state will bring evil results. Men have almost passed the point of God's forbearance. They have invested their strength in politics, and have united with the papacy.

But the time will come when God will punish those who have made void His law, and their evil work will recoil upon themselves (MS 63, 1899).  {4BC 1168.8}   


Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 22, 2018, 07:28:33 PM
nice job Ed...

church state church state church state, etc.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 22, 2018, 07:30:09 PM
okay let's try another one...

John 6...Jesus says eat  my flesh drink my blood....  symbolic right?  So what does it really mean?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 23, 2018, 12:51:19 AM
Quote
John 6...Jesus says eat  my flesh drink my blood....  symbolic right?  So what does it really mean?

Just heard it put this way tonight.  Internalizing Christs character.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 23, 2018, 05:12:50 PM
Quote
John 6...Jesus says eat  my flesh drink my blood....  symbolic right?  So what does it really mean?

Just heard it put this way tonight.  Internalizing Christs character.
  yes, that is correct, but now the question is HOW?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 24, 2018, 06:50:17 AM
I though that was understood, and even explained in the text.  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.  Dan. 2:42.
  that's the literal meaning... there is a symbolic too and Ed found that..
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 26, 2018, 05:46:11 PM
Quote
   John 6...Jesus says eat  my flesh drink my blood....  symbolic right?  So what does it really mean?

Just heard it put this way tonight.  Internalizing Christs character.
  yes, that is correct, but now the question is HOW?

eat flesh drink blood - = 262 SOP published hits / 258 unpublished hits so there must be more facets to this than what these few quotes say

Quote
   Fill the whole heart with the words of God. They are the living water, quenching your burning thirst. They are the living bread from heaven. Jesus declares, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." [John 6:53.] And he explains himself by saying, "The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." [John 6:63.] Our bodies are built up from what we eat and drink; and as in the natural economy, so in the spiritual economy, it is what we meditate upon that will give tone and strength to our spiritual nature.  {CE 57.1}   

Quote
   Christ did not soften down His symbolical representation. He reiterated the truth in yet stronger language: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him."  {DA 389.2} 
    To eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ is to receive Him as a personal Saviour, believing that He forgives our sins, and that we are complete in Him. It is by beholding His love, by dwelling upon it, by drinking it in, that we are to become partakers of His nature. What food is to the body, Christ must be to the soul. Food cannot benefit us unless we eat it, unless it becomes a part of our being. So Christ is of no value to us if we do not know Him as a personal Saviour. A theoretical knowledge will do us no good. We must feed upon Him, receive Him into the heart, so that His life becomes our life. His love, His grace, must be assimilated. {DA 389.3} 
     But even these figures fail to present the privilege of the believer's relation to Christ. Jesus said, "As the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me." As the Son of God lived by faith in the Father, so are we to live by faith in Christ. So fully was Jesus surrendered to the will of God that the Father alone appeared in His life. Although tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world untainted by the evil that surrounded Him. Thus we also are to overcome as Christ overcame.  {DA 389.4} 
     Are you a follower of Christ? Then all that is written concerning the spiritual life is written for you, and may be attained through uniting yourself to Jesus. Is your zeal languishing? has your first love grown cold? Accept again of the proffered love of Christ. Eat of His flesh, drink of His blood, and you will become one with the Father and with the Son.  {DA 389.5}     


Quote
How many would eat the bread and drink the wine, symbols of Christís flesh and blood, and yet their hearts are not in harmony with God? But Christ said more positively, ďExcept ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by meĒ John 6:53-57. {Lt21-1880}
How many will become one with Christ in the manner here expressed as he was one with the Father, living in Christ, partaking of His nature, by meditation, by prayer, by doing His will? Christ dying for us does not give life to our souls any more than the provision of bread to satisfy the wants of our bodies gives strength and energy to the body unless we eat it and it enters the blood and vitalizes the system so indeed is the case in regard to spiritual strength. We must receive and digest the spiritual food and incorporate Christ into our very natures in order for Christ to live in us as he lived in God. Christ merely dying for us will not save us, but He must become a part of us through, faith and [we must] nourish the soul by continually meditating upon Him and partaking of His divine nature. {Lt21-1880}   
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 26, 2018, 06:47:09 PM
Nice .... 

we are to internalize the Word of God daily.... it is spirit and life to us, it is our daily bread, our manna!

Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 26, 2018, 06:49:25 PM
Let's try another...

circumcision ... literal or symbolic
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 26, 2018, 08:23:10 PM
Quote
circumcision ... literal or symbolic
 
   Adam taught his descendants the law of God, and it was handed down from father to son through successive generations. But notwithstanding the gracious provision for man's redemption, there were few who accepted it and rendered obedience. By transgression the world became so vile that it was necessary to cleanse it by the Flood from its corruption. The law was preserved by Noah and his family, and Noah taught his descendants the Ten Commandments. As men again departed from God, the Lord chose Abraham, of whom He declared, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. To him was given the rite of circumcision, which was a sign that those who received it were devoted to the service of God--a pledge that they would remain separate from idolatry, and would obey the law of God. The failure of Abraham's descendants to keep this pledge, as shown in their disposition to form alliances with the heathen and adopt their practices, was the cause of their sojourn and bondage in Egypt. But in their intercourse with idolaters, and their forced submission to the Egyptians, the divine precepts became still further corrupted with the vile and cruel teachings of heathenism. Therefore when the Lord brought them forth from Egypt, He came down upon Sinai, enshrouded in glory and surrounded by His angels, and in awful majesty spoke His law in the hearing of all the people.  {PP 363.2} 

  Christ's denunciation of the Jews is a lesson for us. "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28, 29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed." The things that happened unto them were "for ensamples; and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."  {YI, September 24, 1896 par. 7}
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 27, 2018, 08:33:07 PM
Amen Great Job Listen... it is both literal and symbolic!!!


Let's try another...   Kingdom of God....  literal or symbolic?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 27, 2018, 09:34:56 PM
  "Whereunto," asked Christ, "shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?" Mark 4:30. He could not employ the kingdoms of the world as a similitude. In society He found nothing with which to compare it. Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished. This kingdom is to uplift and ennoble humanity. God's church is the court of holy life, filled with varied gifts and endowed with the Holy Spirit. The members are to find their happiness in the happiness of those whom they help and bless. {AA 12.2}

 Sometimes He taught them, sitting among them on the mountainside; sometimes beside the sea or walking by the way, He revealed the mysteries of the kingdom of God. Wherever hearts were open to receive the divine message, He unfolded the truths of the way of salvation.  {AA 17.2} 

  Now they rejoiced in the knowledge that their believing friends would be raised from the grave to live forever in the kingdom of God. The darkness that had enshrouded the resting place of the dead was dispelled. A new splendor crowned the Christian faith, and they saw a new glory in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.  {AA 259.2} 

Mark 14:25  Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 28, 2018, 02:55:29 PM
so, in your own words as well to clarify?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 28, 2018, 06:28:47 PM
Once the "KINGDOM OF GRACE" ( Christ) abides in you, then in due time you will abide in the "KINGDOM OF GLORY", where the roads are paved with gold.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 29, 2018, 05:47:22 PM
Once the "KINGDOM OF GRACE" ( Christ) abides in you, then in due time you will abide in the "KINGDOM OF GLORY", where the roads are paved with gold.
Amen....  God is so good!!
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 29, 2018, 05:48:05 PM
here is another one... 

the 12 tribes of Israel

literal or symbolic?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on October 03, 2018, 07:47:10 PM
Quote
the 12 tribes of Israel

literal or symbolic?

Newbie, what do you think?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 03, 2018, 08:52:05 PM
Quote
the 12 tribes of Israel

literal or symbolic?

Newbie, what do you think?
was hoping to get you'll thinking....if you want my response okay but wanting to give everyone a fair chance...
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on October 03, 2018, 11:12:32 PM
Was hoping there would be other responses.  It is always interesting to read other thoughts besides my own. 
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 04, 2018, 03:43:16 PM
Was hoping there would be other responses.  It is always interesting to read other thoughts besides my own.
agree....let's wait a bit longer...
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 05, 2018, 07:03:02 PM
12 tribes of Israel - back them - had physical boundaries allowed them to set up their tribal tents around the perimeter of the habitable areas around the Mosaic Sanctuary .  Definitely physically Literal. Blood line / marriage records kept to keep the Levities and Priesthood within God's genealogy requirements.

12 tribes now - no more Mosaic Sanctuary, blood line records gone. Probable bloodline dissolution over time.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 06, 2018, 04:08:19 PM
12 tribes of Israel - back them - had physical boundaries allowed them to set up their tribal tents around the perimeter of the habitable areas around the Mosaic Sanctuary .  Definitely physically Literal. Blood line / marriage records kept to keep the Levities and Priesthood within God's genealogy requirements.

12 tribes now - no more Mosaic Sanctuary, blood line records gone. Probable bloodline dissolution over time.
amen Ed, literal then, now symbolic and interesting how each one of us will enter a gate to the new Jerusalem under a tribe name...  I wonder if we know enough about ourselves to know which tribe we will enter in?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 06, 2018, 04:08:54 PM
ready for another?    :-o

the temple:  literal or symbolic
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 07, 2018, 11:19:58 AM
Bible speaks of Temple / Tabernacle near New Jerusalem, but not inside New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:22  And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 15:5  And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7  And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8  And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 16;
1 ∂  And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

( temple  + 144,000  = 26 published hits no unpublished hits ) 5K limit so if posted at all will post later.  The 144,000 have their names inscribed in gold on stone tables in a temple outside the city just for them.

Quote did not get to post from {CET 62.1 - 64.3}


Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on October 07, 2018, 05:16:09 PM
1 Corinthians 3:16-17  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 08, 2018, 05:22:21 PM
AMEN !!   You are both right!!  Great truths from the bible and SOP !!

here's the next one...

The Tree of Life 
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 09, 2018, 02:30:08 PM
Symbolic of other things
Proverbs 3:13 ∂  Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding..........
18  She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

Proverbs 11:30  The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Proverbs 13:12  Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

Proverbs 15:4  A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

physically literal :
Revelation 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

tree of life > context shows : both symbolic of other things & physically literal .
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 09, 2018, 02:34:26 PM
Much Fruit / Your Fruit  - what is the fruit ?  And why bear fruit and much fruit ?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 09, 2018, 05:57:41 PM
amen...both literal and symbolic

Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 10, 2018, 07:00:26 PM
No, my question is >  Much Fruit / Your Fruit  - what is the fruit ?  And why bear fruit and much fruit ?

So  first question - what is the fruit ?   What is the physical fruit ?  What is the symbolic fruit ?

And the second question - why bear fruit and much fruit ?     Why bare both symbolic and literal fruit and why bare much fruit both symbolic and literal ?

This is a more open ended set of questions. 
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on October 11, 2018, 05:26:57 AM
One of the more controversial one is whether or not the 144,000 is literal or symbolical.

Is it literal or symbolical or both???
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 11, 2018, 08:58:28 AM
That's covered in post 2896 on page 3  :-D

"firstfruits" symbolic of much larger harvest, firstfruits = literal first ripe portion of the harvest.  Sealed = character/righteousness/merits/intercessions of Christ within and Christ has encapsulated that character within them beyond them ever renouncing it, and Father God certifying them as His children and authorizing marking them so = literal , sealing angel has to physically write it inside their forehead & mind so destroying angels can see it and not destroy them by accident.  3rd angel of 3rd angel's message/white linen (sanctuary helper to High Priest / RBF Message bringer in 1888) is the sealer operating by express commission to seal specific individuals as MHP work progresses and Jesus commands that it be done - angel in white linen with writer's inkhorn goes and does, returns, reports, sealing work done.

BTW - Hi Daryl, how are you and the family doing ?  Linda & I live in Arkansas now.  PM me and we will swap contact info.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 11, 2018, 09:03:46 AM
RE : question about fruit - MH gives more than a hint.

Quote
The followers of Christ are to be the light of the world; but God does not bid them make an effort to shine. He does not approve of any self-satisfied endeavor to display superior goodness. He desires that their souls shall be imbued with the principles of heaven; then, as they come in contact with the world, they will reveal the light that is in them. Their steadfast fidelity in every act of life will be a means of illumination. {MH 36.3}   

So fruit is also - INTERNAL FRUIT  &  EXTERNAL FRUIT in the quote's context - internal fruit that becomes external fruit as it shines out in contact with others, but then is received by them and inside them replicates the process becoming internal fruit IN THEM, and then SHINING OUT FROM THEM - externally to others.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 11, 2018, 08:28:10 PM
amen ed !    it is both...

Daryl I think an earlier post by ed answered your question but thanks for joining in
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 11, 2018, 08:29:23 PM
Symbolic of other things
Proverbs 3:13 ∂  Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding..........
18  She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

Proverbs 11:30  The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Proverbs 13:12  Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.

Proverbs 15:4  A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

physically literal :
Revelation 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

tree of life > context shows : both symbolic of other things & physically literal .
did you know that we can eat from the tree of life even now, today?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 17, 2018, 09:52:31 AM
MH p-122-123   
Quote
So with all the promises of God's word. In them He is speaking to us individually, speaking as directly as if we could listen to His voice. It is in these promises that Christ communicates to us His grace and power. They are leaves from that tree which is "for the healing of the nations." Revelation 22:2. Received, assimilated, they are to be the strength of the character, the inspiration and sustenance of the life. Nothing else can have such healing power. Nothing besides can impart the courage and faith which give vital energy to the whole being.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 17, 2018, 06:55:53 PM
Amen 🙏 isnít that amazing!!
We can eat from the tree of life even now it is eating of the Word if God eating of the heavenly manna which is Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 20, 2018, 05:12:10 PM
Quote
In Nazareth Christ announced that His work was to restore and uplift, to bring peace and happiness. He came to this world to represent the Father, and He revealed His divine power by giving life to the dead, by restoring the sick and suffering to soundness and health. He was in the world as the tree of life. {Ms136-1899}   
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 20, 2018, 05:18:28 PM
next literal or symbolic -  Drunk , Drunken, drunkenness  Cain was drunk but not with alcohol.

Quote
Cain in his offering did not acknowledge his dependence upon Christ. He thought that his father Adam had been treated harshly in being expelled from Eden. The idea of keeping that sin ever before the mind, and offering the blood of the slain lamb as a confession of entire dependence upon a Power outside of himself, was torture to the high spirit of Cain. Being the eldest, he thought that Abel should follow his example. When Abelís offering was accepted of God, the holy fire consuming the sacrifice, Cainís anger was exceedingly great. The Lord condescended to explain matters to him, but he would not be reconciled to God, and he hated Abel because God showed him favor. He became so angry that he slew his brother. {Lt57-1895}
The Lord has a controversy with all who by their unbelief and doubt have been saying that He delayeth His coming, and who have been smiting their fellow servants, and eating and drinking with (working from the very same principle as) the drunken. They are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. Satan has controlled their reason, and they know not at what they stumble. {Lt57-1895} 
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 20, 2018, 07:59:04 PM
good one....  like the 'wine' of Babylon....  literal or symbolic?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 21, 2018, 05:37:49 PM
let's try another

the wedding feast where people are invited to come...there are 3 calls..
literal or symbolic?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 24, 2018, 03:20:57 PM
Quote
the wedding feast where people are invited to come...there are 3 calls..
literal or symbolic?

no takers on this one?  or is everyone busy  ? :-D
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 25, 2018, 05:20:05 PM
Been busy

Quote
All who are partakers of the wedding feast, the gospel feast, by this act say that they have accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. They wear His distinguishing dress. They have accepted the truth as it is in Jesus, which is the robe of Christ's righteousness. Only those do honor to Christ who accept the invitation, "Come, for all things are now ready; come to the marriage supper of the Lamb." These put on the white linen, the clean, pure character, showing that they no longer live their old citizen life that they lived in their ignorance. Their speech is changed. Their conversation is in altogether another line. . . .  {UL 304.3}   

A duel symbol/literal marriage supper as yet future - but only for the properly dressed guests.


Quote
  Called to the Wedding Feast

(Sermon by Ellen G. White In Washington, Township, Iowa, Cir. 1874.) .....{1SAT 4.1-8.3} good reading 

Scripture's 1st call to the wedding and wedding feast - represented what ? 
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 25, 2018, 07:14:08 PM
very true ED... the invitation is the gospel truth... the call goes out again and again...  now to everyone!
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on October 26, 2018, 02:43:20 PM
Been busy

Quote
All who are partakers of the wedding feast, the gospel feast, by this act say that they have accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. They wear His distinguishing dress. They have accepted the truth as it is in Jesus, which is the robe of Christ's righteousness. Only those do honor to Christ who accept the invitation, "Come, for all things are now ready; come to the marriage supper of the Lamb." These put on the white linen, the clean, pure character, showing that they no longer live their old citizen life that they lived in their ignorance. Their speech is changed. Their conversation is in altogether another line. . . .  {UL 304.3}   

A duel symbol/literal marriage supper as yet future - but only for the properly dressed guests.


Quote
  Called to the Wedding Feast

(Sermon by Ellen G. White In Washington, Township, Iowa, Cir. 1874.) .....{1SAT 4.1-8.3} good reading 

Scripture's 1st call to the wedding and wedding feast - represented what ?

first call goes to old Israel, the Jews
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 26, 2018, 07:15:51 PM
In looking up "second call" I came across this {16MR 267.1- 276.3}