Revival Sermons

Studies in the Word => Difficult Bible Texts => Topic started by: newbie on September 10, 2018, 04:43:43 PM

Title: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 10, 2018, 04:43:43 PM
Seems that a lot of discussion debate center around whether things are literal or symbolic or maybe parallel?

Lion...  is this Jesus or Satan?  symbolic right
Leaven... is it good or bad?  literal and analogy symbol
time prophecies literal or symbolic?

do you see the problem?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 10, 2018, 04:46:44 PM
There is no problem when context is taken into consideration.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 11, 2018, 06:00:11 PM
There is no problem when context is taken into consideration.
 
not always do we have context....  there is inconsistency in some situations ..
for example:  the numbers in revelation or the numbers in prophecy and our people argue and argue over them constantly
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 11, 2018, 08:42:39 PM
"for example:  the numbers in revelation or the numbers in prophecy and our people argue and argue over them constantly"

What numbers are you referencing?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 12, 2018, 06:02:15 PM
from Newbie
Quote
Seems that a lot of discussion debate center around whether things are literal or symbolic or maybe parallel?

Lion...  is this Jesus or Satan?  symbolic right
Leaven... is it good or bad?  literal and analogy symbol
time prophecies literal or symbolic?

do you see the problem?

Then Raven said
Quote
There is no problem when context is taken into consideration. 

Lion - Revelation 5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Psalms 22:13  They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Proverbs 28:15  As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people.
Ezekiel 22:25  There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
1 Peter 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The lions refer to specific individuals and the characteristics of Lion's is applied to them. Two kinds of Lions symbolized.

Leaven - something that literally permeates, ferments, causes changes, and gas build up, makes grape juice into alcohol containing wine, causes secondary intoxication through alcohol buildup, is symbolic of whatever permeates and spoils something, or  symbolic of the gospel permeating a newly converted person with the  person  denoted as a "new" wineskin verses an admixture with false doctrines and a carnal heart ( old wineskin).  Leaven of the pharisees = hypocrisy

Time - God's coded references to a time specific prophecy the wicked are not understanding, by the teachable can learn. Reference to a literal 360 day long Jewish sacred calender year.

Numbers - Numbers integers that refer to units of time that God has coded to show the teachable and leave the proud in doubt about, or literal integers denoting how many of something, or how long till when, of how long from when.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 12, 2018, 06:15:11 PM
"for example:  the numbers in revelation or the numbers in prophecy and our people argue and argue over them constantly"

What numbers are you referencing?
numbers in revelation
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 13, 2018, 02:44:03 AM


What numbers are you referencing?
numbers in revelation

I'm not following you.  The only numbers I know of that are debated among SDA's are the 144,000--literal or symbolic.  And we've been  warned not to argue about that.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 13, 2018, 07:00:28 PM
you're kidding right? 
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 15, 2018, 01:19:22 PM
Quote
"for example:  the numbers in revelation or the numbers in prophecy and our people argue and argue over them constantly"

What numbers are you referencing?
numbers in revelation


Your answers are too vague to understand what you are asking/talking about. 
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 15, 2018, 04:26:18 PM
some examples aside from 144K

literal or symbolic?

the plagues
the sign or seal between God and His people
God's law
the Mark of God
the Mark of the beast
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 17, 2018, 07:23:07 PM
Quote
literal or symbolic?

the plagues
the sign or seal between God and His people
God's law
the Mark of God
the Mark of the beast

Symbolic plagues.  Now that is an interesting concept.

To me the other items in the list are all character related.   Is ones character literal or symbolic or based on principle?  I haven't heard these types of arguments.  Know what you believe or study to know what you believe on any subject.  I doubt if arguing with anyone over issues changes their mind.  I haven't seen that it is anything but frustrating and gets nowhere.

What do you think?


Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 18, 2018, 02:25:33 AM
some examples aside from 144K

literal or symbolic?

the plagues
the sign or seal between God and His people
God's law
the Mark of God
the Mark of the beast

I have not heard arguments among SDA's about these items.  Everyone I've talked to understands the plagues to be literal (and Ellen White says as much), the seal to be symbolic, as well as the mark of the beast.  I've never heard anyone suggest that God's law was anything but literal.  We've been warned off the ground of making some of these things too important.  I think we have enough clarity in the Bible and the SOP to keep us from going down the wrong path.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 18, 2018, 05:08:04 PM
my 2 cents:

the plagues-literal

the sign or seal between God and His people / the Mark of God - literal (third angel has writers inkhorn applies it or passes by ) (destroying angel can read it ) ( I found 5 published, 2 not published hits - seal destroying angel* read* )

Quote
What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption. The intelligent mind has seen the sign of the cross of Calvary in the Lord's adopted sons and daughters. The sin of the transgression of the law of God is taken away. They have on the wedding garment, and are obedient and faithful to all God's commands.  {Mar 243.6} 
     The Lord will not excuse those who know the truth if they do not in word and deed obey His commands.  {Mar 243.7} 

Quote
What is the seal of the living God, which is placed in the foreheads of His people? It is a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption (Letter 126, 1898).  {4BC 1161.4}
     The angel with the writer's ink horn is to place a mark upon the foreheads of all who are separated from sin and sinners, and the destroying angel follows this angel (Letter 12, 1886).  {4BC 1161.5} 
     (Revelation 7:2.) Seal Is a Settling Into Truth.--Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already; the judgments of God are now upon the land, to give us warning, that we may know what is coming (MS 173, 1902).  {4BC 1161.6}   


God's law - literal -

 (https://i.imgur.com/8PIrQaJ.jpg)   

(https://i.imgur.com/pRuG8Nb.jpg) 
sorry jpgs are not the clearest but these are the tablets Moses broke, were found during first gulf war, RCC put a worldwide squelch on but Taiwan sent a reporter anyway.  I talked to high ranking RCC Offical not long after and he corroborated their validity, wanted to know how I found out. 

the Mark of the beast - literal Civil/religious Government can identify and persecute - so they know who complies or not, The Investigative judgment tags it too  ( so destroying angel can read that too )

I can't see gravity or radio waves but they are literal.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 18, 2018, 08:15:38 PM
some of these have both a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning... do you see that?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 20, 2018, 02:07:07 AM
some of these have both a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning... do you see that?

Of course; so what's the problem?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 21, 2018, 03:13:53 PM
the 'clay' in Daniel two...  symbolic right? 
so what does it mean?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Raven on September 21, 2018, 03:17:08 PM
I though that was understood, and even explained in the text.  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.  Dan. 2:42.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 21, 2018, 06:51:13 PM
iron clay - prophetic symbol

Quote
  43. Iron and Clay--Mingled Churchcraft and Statecraft.--We have come to a time when God's sacred work is represented by the feet of the image in which the iron was mixed with the miry clay.

God has a people, a chosen people, whose discernment must be sanctified, who must not become unholy by laying upon the foundation wood, hay, and stubble.

Every soul who is loyal to the commandments of God will see that the distinguishing feature of our faith is the seventh-day Sabbath. If the government would honor the Sabbath as God has commanded, it would stand in the strength of God and in defense of the faith once delivered to the saints.

But statesmen will uphold the spurious sabbath, and will mingle their religious faith with the observance of this child of the papacy, placing it above the Sabbath which the Lord has sanctified and blessed, setting it apart for man to keep holy, as a sign between Him and His people to a thousand generations.

The mingling of churchcraft and statecraft is represented by the iron and the clay.

This union is weakening all the power of the churches. This investing the church with the power of the state will bring evil results. Men have almost passed the point of God's forbearance. They have invested their strength in politics, and have united with the papacy.

But the time will come when God will punish those who have made void His law, and their evil work will recoil upon themselves (MS 63, 1899).  {4BC 1168.8}   


Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 22, 2018, 07:28:33 PM
nice job Ed...

church state church state church state, etc.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 22, 2018, 07:30:09 PM
okay let's try another one...

John 6...Jesus says eat  my flesh drink my blood....  symbolic right?  So what does it really mean?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: Listen on September 23, 2018, 12:51:19 AM
Quote
John 6...Jesus says eat  my flesh drink my blood....  symbolic right?  So what does it really mean?

Just heard it put this way tonight.  Internalizing Christs character.
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 23, 2018, 05:12:50 PM
Quote
John 6...Jesus says eat  my flesh drink my blood....  symbolic right?  So what does it really mean?

Just heard it put this way tonight.  Internalizing Christs character.
  yes, that is correct, but now the question is HOW?
Title: Re: Is it literal or symbolic?
Post by: newbie on September 24, 2018, 06:50:17 AM
I though that was understood, and even explained in the text.  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.  Dan. 2:42.
  that's the literal meaning... there is a symbolic too and Ed found that..