Revival Sermons

News => Let's Get Aquainted => Topic started by: Tasa on July 22, 2018, 08:34:39 AM

Title: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tasa on July 22, 2018, 08:34:39 AM
I'm new to this forum, but no stranger to Christian forums generally. I do not claim any denomination, but only try to follow Christ.

What I am most looking for is Biblical discussions conducted in a CHRISTIAN manner; I don't really have an objection to anything one believes, as long as the discussion remains respectful and viewpoints are legitimately supported.  That's really the reason I don't frequent the other forums much.

So I will try posting here, and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tammy on July 22, 2018, 12:26:34 PM
Do you believe that the whole Bible is the inspired Word of God?

Any particular subject you have an interest in discussing?
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tasa on July 22, 2018, 08:07:40 PM
Hi Tammy.
A fair question, since you don't know me. The short answer is Yes, I do. We may, however, differ on the assumptions we build on that premise.

As far as questions, if you don't have questions, your not studying.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tammy on July 23, 2018, 02:52:19 PM
How do you interpret Matthew 5:17 where Jesus says that He didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it?
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tasa on July 23, 2018, 05:14:39 PM
Just out of curiosity, does one always have to answer 3 questions before you can post your comment? Because if that is the case, my time here will be very short.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Listen on July 23, 2018, 05:34:14 PM
"does one always have to answer 3 questions before you can post your comment? "

No, we just post our comments and see what replies that elicits.

Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tammy on July 23, 2018, 07:27:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, does one always have to answer 3 questions before you can post your comment?

I guess I must have misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying you like to discuss Biblical things and so I just randomly selected a text to start discussing.  If you'd like to choose the topic of discussion, that's fine.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tasa on July 23, 2018, 09:14:40 PM
No, no. My bad.

What I meant was that when I post a comment, there are three questions at the bottom of the post box that I must answer before it allows me to post.  Is this always the case? The first question is a decipher question, then a random question, then a math question.  Some kind of "verification" thing.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Ed Sutton on July 23, 2018, 10:26:20 PM
How do you interpret Matthew 5:17 where Jesus says that He didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it?

Since Jesus said He did not come to destroy - fulfill can not mean, destroy, or set aside, or end the following of the law.

Next - look at fulfill

Matthew 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil<4137> (5658).



Matthew 1:22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled <4137> (5658) which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Matthew 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled <4137> which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2:17  Then was fulfilled <4137> that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
Matthew 2:23  And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled <4137> which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.
Matthew 3:15  And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil <4137> all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Matthew 4:14  That it might be fulfilled <4137> which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil <4137>.
Matthew 8:17  That it might be fulfilled <4137> which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Matthew 12:17  That it might be fulfilled <4137> which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Matthew 13:35  That it might be fulfilled <4137> which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

4137 πληρόω pleroo play-ro’-o

from 4134; v; TDNT-6:286,867;  {See TDNT 640}

AV-fulfil 51, fill 19, be full 7, complete 2, end 2, misc 9; 90

1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
2b) to consummate: a number
2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment


(5658)  TVM: Aorist 5777( in English - usually past tense) , Active 5784 ( the focus is the person doing this), Infinitive 5795 ( to do or continue doing ).

Jesus is the only instance of human nature sinlessly obeying the Law of God - since the fall of Adam. It is understood (as noted in John 5:19) Jesus is not allowed to use His Divine power to do this until after his resurrection when He makes His pronouncement in Matthew 28:18-20.  So there had to be an unbroken partnership / union between Jesus in His humanity & Father God until Calvary. Even then by faith Jesus Christ clung to the Most High God.     

There is evidence of this in Hebrews 5:7  Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;


Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Since Jesus has no intercessor Redeemer for Himself, one sin on His part would be utter failure and death for us all, including Himself.  To pay the debt of all humanities sin, His humanity must be sinless and perfect, to offer in all our places.       
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tasa on July 24, 2018, 06:52:27 AM
Tammy, sorry about that confusion regarding the questions.
 
Hello, Ed. I remember you from your MSDAOL days.

Regarding Jesus fulfilling the law, as you pointed out one of the understandings of fulfil is to bring to an end, or complete, by accomplishing (fulfilling) the requirements of. Since the law required death, and Paul is very clear in Gal. and Eph. that Jesus brought an end to the law by his death on the cross, here is my (current) view:

The cross was more than mere salvation and atonement for sin.

EVERYTHING CHANGED.

The cross brought an end to the Old Covenant of rules, regulations, ceremonies and ordinances. (Loose paraphrase of Paul in Gal/Eph)
It brought in the New Covenant in Christ's blood. (Luke 22:20)
With the New Covenant came a new commandment. (John 13:34)
End of Commandments.

BEFORE THE CROSS, when the Rich Young Ruler asked Jesus "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus answered in terms of the Law and commandment keeping. "You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, and honor your father and mother.’" (Mark 10:17-21, also in Matthew 19:16-30; Luke 18:18-30) He did NOT say believe in God, or Me, or Abraham, or indeed ANYTHING about belief.

AFTER THE CROSS, when the jailer asked Paul and Silas the exact same question, "They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:25-34) They did not answer in terms of keeping the Law, but in terms of belief in Christ.

Along with the new covenant came a new command - "Love one another." Love is the fulfilment of the law as per Romans 13:8-10. This is the command we are to keep.

So in my view, when Rev. 14:12 says "Here are they that keep the commandments of God [ie: love one another] and the faith of [ie: stay faithful to, or trust in] Jesus, THIS is the "command" it is referring to.



Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Listen on July 24, 2018, 02:40:14 PM
No, no. My bad.

What I meant was that when I post a comment, there are three questions at the bottom of the post box that I must answer before it allows me to post.  Is this always the case? The first question is a decipher question, then a random question, then a math question.  Some kind of "verification" thing.

Interesting.  I don't see that.  Maybe when I was new but don't remember it.  Hopefully someone in the know will give an answer.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Raven on July 24, 2018, 05:02:39 PM
It's a new one on me.  Maybe Larry knows something, but he's a rare bird of late.

Vicki?
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Ed Sutton on July 24, 2018, 11:29:12 PM
No sin of any kind in Heaven.   

No character change once Jesus pronounces ........"be holy still" just before leaving Sanctuary as High Priest and assuming role of King of Kings for the Second Coming.  Righteous stay righteous, and the holy stay holy, and defiled and unholy, stay that way too.

Righteousness By Faith then must be producing continuous total Law fulfilling obedience in the saved, before the Seven Last Plagues start, while Jesus is still High Priest.  Or they are not holy or righteous but remain defiled according to the mandate of Jesus .

Nahum 1:9  What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Sin does not happen anymore.  So looking at Exodus 20:1-17   which of these "thou shalt not's " are now righteous to do or think or say ?

God can not obliterate sin AND obliterate the law .    He has spent 6000 yrs + restoring obedience and separating obedience and defiance.  As long as there is defiance in a person union with God is being rejected by that person.  God never gets rid of His law after Calvary, He enshrines perfect obedience via Calvary in His children .
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: V. Hahn on July 25, 2018, 01:05:44 AM
It's a new one on me.  Maybe Larry knows something, but he's a rare bird of late.

Vicki?

Welcome to the forum, Tasa!

As far as the "three questions" thing, I've never seen it before, and have never heard anyone mention it.  Strange.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tammy on July 25, 2018, 02:35:34 PM
God never gets rid of His law after Calvary, He enshrines perfect obedience via Calvary in His children.

Via Calvary!  I like that.  He has made it possible for us to obey.

I don't think deeply like some of you--Ed S., Tasa, etc.--as far as the heavy theological studies.  But I think of a few simple thoughts that come to my mind.  Like God wrote the 10 commandments on stone.  That sounds pretty permanent to me. 

Then if I try to think with the idea that the 10 commandments are no longer for us today, does that mean that God doesn't care now whether I put other gods before Him or take His name in vain?  Can I do those things and still be a good person to have in heaven?  Just doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Larry Lyons on July 28, 2018, 06:39:48 PM
Tammy I agree that it makes no sense. Jesus did not die so that we could violate the ten commandments.

And speaking as a "rare old bird"  :-D that just flew in, I do not recall that there were ever any test questions to be answered before being allowed to post on this forum.
Larry
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Raven on July 29, 2018, 03:22:42 AM
Good to hear from you, Larry.  Don't make yourself so scarce.  It's been pretty quiet around here lately.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: V. Hahn on July 30, 2018, 08:24:30 AM
Amen!  We missed you, Larry!
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: newbie on July 30, 2018, 06:03:21 PM
Amen!  We missed you, Larry!
  :-D
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tasa on July 30, 2018, 07:33:58 PM
Ok.
We're all glad to see Larry back.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tammy on July 31, 2018, 12:24:26 PM
So Tasa, you haven't responded to several of our comments.  Were you through discussing Matthew 5:17?  Was there anything specific that you would like to discuss?
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tasa on July 31, 2018, 05:04:27 PM
Well, Tammy, I think I'll just move along.  I find the format of this forum to be awkward to navigate, and it's awkward to constantly be answering the "verification" questions every time I want to post.

Also, I've been reading on many of the threads and I don't see a lot of variation in thought and opinion. Someone says something and everyone agrees.

Besides, one cannot really say anybody "responded" to my view of Matt. 5:17.  Ed Sutton tried to wax pontifical for a bit, but he made no effort to understand my position before eloquating, and then the "Welcome Back Larry" crowd all agreed with him.  That was the extent of the "discussion."

So, before I invest a lot of time and emotional energy in a "Yes-man" forum, I'll just quietly fade into the background, lurking around the edges of the all-too-familiar chatter, and hoping to someday find a forum with "thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men's thoughts."
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Tammy on August 01, 2018, 08:44:19 AM
Tasa, here is a forum you may enjoy:  Adventistan.com

There are 3 or 4 people on there who go back and forth on doctrinal beliefs that they don't agree on.  They present their cases in an intelligent and sane way.  They don't get all crazy angry like on some other forums I've seen.
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 10, 2018, 07:38:23 PM
Tasa what is your position ?  How do you see it ?

You asked a question & I responded.

you did not say "wait till I elaborate" so I responded.  It's your turn to respond.

Matt 5:17 speaks of fulfilling the law of God, and God's commands qualify with also being His law.  This is not directed at you but how would you answer this question ?   

Why do the rank and file of SDA's view themselves as law keepers if they do not "fulfill" the twice repeated command of Jesus found in John 13:34; John 15:12; because He stated this is one of the twin foundations of the whole law & the prophets - Matthew 22:26-40. 

The same question is posed here by one of the founders of the Denomination.

Quote
"     When we reflect Christ's image, we shall love one another as He has loved us. We shall not love as we love our neighbor, but as Christ loved us. It is an advance to love as Christ loved. This is the perfection of Christian character. When we can say, My will is wholly submerged in God's will, then peace and rest come in.  {7MR 389.1} 

     We must have that love, else we cannot be perfect before God. We may be active, we may do much work, but unless we love as Christ loved, our candlestick will be removed out of its place. . . .  {7MR 389.2} 

     We have little enough of Christ's character. We need it all through our ranks, We must reveal that love which dwelt in Jesus. Then we shall keep the commandment [that we love one another], which not one in a hundred of those who claim to believe the truth for this time are keeping. . . .  {7MR 389.3} 

     Perfect unity must exist in a diversity of gifts. A union of all the gifts is essential. The one great commandment Christ has given is a new commandment. It reaches beyond loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. We are to love one another, "as I," said Christ, "have loved you." This experience must be obtained by every child of God. All must blend together in the work, thus making the work not onesided, but a complete whole.--Letter 121, 1898, pp. 6-8. (To S. N. Haskell and wife, December 12, 1898.)  {7MR 389.4}     "
Title: Re: Just looking for discussion
Post by: restoretruth on August 11, 2018, 04:19:40 PM
....
Regarding Jesus fulfilling the law, as you pointed out one of the understandings of fulfil is to bring to an end, or complete, by accomplishing (fulfilling) the requirements of. Since the law required death, and Paul is very clear in Gal. and Eph. that Jesus brought an end to the law by his death on the cross, here is my (current) view:

The cross was more than mere salvation and atonement for sin.

EVERYTHING CHANGED.

The cross brought an end to the Old Covenant of rules, regulations, ceremonies and ordinances. (Loose paraphrase of Paul in Gal/Eph)
It brought in the New Covenant in Christ's blood. (Luke 22:20)
With the New Covenant came a new commandment. (John 13:34)
End of Commandments.

BEFORE THE CROSS, when the Rich Young Ruler asked Jesus "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus answered in terms of the Law and commandment keeping. "You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not defraud, and honor your father and mother.’" (Mark 10:17-21, also in Matthew 19:16-30; Luke 18:18-30) He did NOT say believe in God, or Me, or Abraham, or indeed ANYTHING about belief.

AFTER THE CROSS, when the jailer asked Paul and Silas the exact same question, "They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:25-34) They did not answer in terms of keeping the Law, but in terms of belief in Christ.

Along with the new covenant came a new command - "Love one another." Love is the fulfilment of the law as per Romans 13:8-10. This is the command we are to keep.

So in my view, when Rev. 14:12 says "Here are they that keep the commandments of God [ie: love one another] and the faith of [ie: stay faithful to, or trust in] Jesus, THIS is the "command" it is referring to.
Welcome to the forum TASA! Hope you are still here!

It is the breaking of God's law that causes death! That is why Paul speaks of "escape from the law of sin and death" in Rom. 8:2. How do we escape?

We escape by Faith in Christ; that He took our guilt upon Himself & died in our place -- taking the penalty for our breaking of God's law.  Christ not only forgives our sins but He cleanses us from sin & restores us to His image! The Holy Spirit dwelling in us makes it possible to fulfill the principles of God's law in our hearts (minds). Loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and might & loving others as Christ loves us are the underlying principles of God's law. If God could just forgive the breaking of His principles of love that govern His universe without the penalty of death, there would be no more law. Everyone would be a law unto themselves! It would be like our present world! God's solution to the sin problem was to take the penalty for sin upon Himself! This gives Him the right to forgive without doing away with His law! It also gives God the right to give men & women Divine power to cleanse their life from sin!

(There is much more that needs to be said on this subject!)