Revival Sermons

Theology => Sanctification => Topic started by: dedication on June 17, 2016, 08:37:35 PM

Title: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 17, 2016, 08:37:35 PM
What role does "will power" play in our sanctification?

Elsewhere I had stated some ideas -- multiple choice -- which ones are true?

1. The "works centered" understanding
If we just summon enough will power (with help from God) we can overcome every sin in our lives and thus achieve sanctification.

2. The Biblical understanding
Romans 7 -- even though I will to do God's law, I find I can't do it, I find myself doing the opposite of the good that I wanted to do.
The solution is found in  Romans 8

3.  EGW's understanding
Surrender the will to Christ, place our will under the will of God

4.  Calvinist idea
Our wills are not part of it
God predetermines who is saved and lavishes His irresistible grace on the elect
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 17, 2016, 08:51:37 PM
Obviously, in our Adventist understanding of the Great Controversy, freedom of choice places high.
God does not want forced love and obedience, for that isn't real love or obedience.  Robotic worship and service is not real worship either. So sanctification does involve choice.   But what are the basic choices?

Also, we must not confuse the topic of "sanctification" with merely a self disciplined person.
Self discipline is important in life, no matter what the reason, be it a good worker on the job, a good homemaker, a good citizen.  A person who has no self discipline will have a hard time with sanctification as well, because they have not developed any "power of the will", they just drift where ever the current takes them.   But self discipline in itself is not sanctification.

So what is sanctification, and what part does "the power of the will" play?
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 17, 2016, 11:25:33 PM
It is interesting that scriptures speak of sanctification both as  something in the past, and as a process.
We've heard considerable concerning the process of sanctification, but very little that we ARE sanctified, set apart for Christ.   

1 Cor. 1:2   Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,
1 Cor. 6:11   And such were some of you: but you are washed, but you are sanctified,
2 Tim 2.21   he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use,  prepared unto every good work.

Sanctify -- to set apart to be holy, consecrate, dedicate for holy use.

Notice in the verses -- we are (present tense) sanctified-- called to be saints, prepared unto every good work.

The reason some have not entered into the experience of sanctification is that we have not realized the meaning of sanctification from God’s perspective, we tend to focus on just as overcoming sin.   
When we come to Christ in repentance, in full acknowledgment that we are sinners in need of His grace, Christ justifies us -- forgives and cleanses us, and He also sanctifies us.
That is -- having cleaned our record He SETS US APART for holy living in Him.

Do we understand what that means?   It's not something in the future, it is present reality.   When we come to Christ for justification, He also sanctifies us -- we are set apart from the world and set on the road of holy living.
Have we experienced this sanctification?   

Then comes  the sanctifying process -- the growing part.

However, many don't know about the present sanctification that is to take place before any growing can begin.   They don't realize that God has accepted them into His kingdom, bestowed upon them His righteousness, and sanctified them, set them apart from the world unto Himself to live holy lives.

We don't have to live a long life of struggling against sin to be sanctified.  At each stage of our growth as we abide in Christ, we are sanctified, "set apart for holy living in Christ".

We start our walk with Christ sanctified -- set apart from the world.
This knowledge, when fully realized, transforms our whole thinking process -- we are now Christ's children, Redeemed and we love to proclaim it,  We want the fruits of the Holy Spirit so we can share Jesus more fully.

That sanctification  is a day by day experience of abiding in Christ.
It is a daily dying to self (and all sinful inclinations to sin)  and abiding in Christ and seeking His will.
It's no longer something that can be measured (as in no sin) that we can achieve if we just try hard enough.   It is a growing processes in holiness.  When the Holy spirit says "don't do it",  we say, "No, I won't do it" and turn away.   When the Holy Spirit says "do this"  we do that,
And we need to know our scriptures, for the true Holy Spirit will never led us in opposition to scripture.
You see, the most important thing God wants to change in us is a spirit of rebellion.

So our choice is to pledge our allegiance fully for Christ.  He is to be our focus and fill our thoughts.   When we pledge our allegiance to Him, we place our will under His will, and like Christ in the garden -- say "not my will but thine be done" to your glory, not for mine.
 
He sets the road of righteousness before us, takes our hand and leads us, and we CHOSE to walk with Him, to follow where ever He leads.

That's what Joseph did on the road to Egypt where he would be a slave -- he resolved in his heart to stay true to the God of heaven no matter what.   And thus when temptation came he exclaimed -- "How can I do this great evil against God". 


Are we ready for God to separate us from the things of this world  unto holiness?

The biggest choice we need to make is this:
To purpose in one's heart to completely give themselves to Christ, that they not defile themselves again with sin and thus bring disgrace upon the One Who saved them.

Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: ColporteurK on June 18, 2016, 05:51:43 AM
 CG  Chap. Thirty-Nine - The Will a Factor in Success

     Every Child Should Understand the Power of the Will.--The will is the governing power in the nature of man, bringing all the other faculties under its sway. The will is not the taste or the inclination, but it is the deciding power, which works in the children of men unto obedience to God, or unto disobedience. 
 
     Every child should understand the true force of the will. He should be led to see how great is the responsibility involved in this gift. The will is . . . the power of decision, or choice. 
 
     Success Comes When the Will Is Yielded to God.-- Every human being possessed of reason has power to choose the right. In every experience of life God's word to us is, "Choose you this day whom ye will serve." Joshua 24:15. Everyone may place his will on the side of the will of God, may choose to obey Him, and by thus linking himself with divine agencies, he may stand where nothing can force him to do evil. In every youth, every child, lies the power, by the help of God, to form a character of integrity and to live a life of usefulness.   
     The parent or teacher who by such instruction trains the child to self-control will be the most useful and permanently successful. To the superficial observer his work may not appear to the best advantage; it may not be valued so highly as that of the one who holds the mind and will of the child under absolute authority; but after years will show the result of the better method of training.
                                                                           
     Do Not Weaken, but Direct the Child's Will.--Save all the strength of the will, for the human being needs it all; but give it proper direction. Treat it wisely and tenderly, as a sacred treasure. Do not hammer it in pieces, but by precept and true example wisely fashion and mold it until the child comes to years of responsibility. 
 
     Children should early be trained to submit their will and inclination to the will and authority of their parents. When parents teach their children this lesson, they are educating them to submit to God's will and obey His requirements, and fitting them to be members of Christ's family.
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: ColporteurK on June 18, 2016, 05:56:24 AM
CC p. 254

Christians should be preparing for what is soon to break upon the world as an overwhelming surprise, and this preparation they should make by diligently studying the word of God and striving to conform their lives to its precepts. The tremendous issues of eternity demand of us something besides an imaginary religion, a religion of words and forms, where truth is kept in the outer court. . .
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 18, 2016, 06:03:31 AM
Exactly  the power of the will in sanctification is to choose WHOM WE WILL SERVE.

Yet, we must differentiate between the "training of the child" by the parents,
and sanctification.  It is not one and the same thing.

A well trained child, who has been taught self discipline, and thus has learned to be a good citizen, is not sanctified, he has only been given traits  of character that will make it easier for him or her to experience sanctification

Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 18, 2016, 06:18:14 AM
True, a time of intense testing is coming upon the world.
What is  that preparation that makes religion so REAL that a person would rather die than turn aside?  That is the important question, the essential question,  we need to answer and fully understand.

Self discipline is not sanctification.   
The Christian's life is not just a modification in one's habits (though there will be huge change in true sanctification, a transformation).  When Jesus said "Except a corn of wheat fall in the ground and die, it abideth alone (John 12:24)  He was obviously speaking of a "death to self".

"The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897).

Sanctification can be reduced to a very self centered operation that is not sanctification at all, even if it sounds and looks very pious and religious,  but is still self exaltation.   When that life threatening test comes it won't stand.

"There is in the religious world a theory of sanctification which is false in itself and dangerous in its influence. In many cases those who profess sanctification do not possess the genuine article. Their sanctification consists in talk and will worship. {CCh 50.2}

We do need to know what real sanctification is -- it is not "will worship".


 
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 18, 2016, 08:33:38 AM
In our Sabbath lesson today we read
Matthew 26:39   And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as You will. 
 26:40   And he came unto the disciples, and finds them asleep, and says unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 
 26:41   Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

What powerful applications to the last day test do we see here?
1. Don't sleep unaware of what is coming.  Instead watch and pray.  Earnestly pray. 
2. Those who do see what is coming, will be struggling in earnest prayer to put their will under God's will, pleading that God's will be done at whatever cost to themselves.   
3. The emphases is in prayer -- a total commitment and dependence upon God.
4. Had Peter spent that time in earnest prayer and had less self assurance of his loyalty to Christ, he would not have denied His Lord.  He felt very confident that he would never deny Christ, after all, he had given up much to be Christ's follower, he was sure that even if everyone else fled, he would fight to the death for Jesus, but his self confidence evaporated like mist in the burning heat when the test came and he denied Jesus. 
 
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: ColporteurK on June 18, 2016, 11:30:11 AM
Exactly  the power of the will in sanctification is to choose WHOM WE WILL SERVE.

Yet, we must differentiate between the "training of the child" by the parents,
and sanctification.  It is not one and the same thing.

A well trained child, who has been taught self discipline, and thus has learned to be a good citizen, is not sanctified, he has only been given traits  of character that will make it easier for him or her to experience sanctification

It is all part of the same process. We are sanctified even through the teaching of our children and they are sanctified as they learn and follow God.
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: ColporteurK on June 18, 2016, 11:36:36 AM
True, a time of intense testing is coming upon the world.
What is  that preparation that makes religion so REAL that a person would rather die than turn aside?  That is the important question, the essential question,  we need to answer and fully understand.

Self discipline is not sanctification.   
The Christian's life is not just a modification in one's habits (though there will be huge change in true sanctification, a transformation).  When Jesus said "Except a corn of wheat fall in the ground and die, it abideth alone (John 12:24)  He was obviously speaking of a "death to self".

I did not speak of self discipline in the sense of  being a  part from God. You are the one dividing our part from God's part. We are to discipline our lives. That's what the word "disciple" means. I think you are leaving us out of the equation. We are to surrender and allow God to work through us. We are also to strive to obey in tangible meaningful disciplinary ways. God has given us power to obey but we must act upon that and we will act upon that if we are truly justified.

Col Ch. 25     "Self-discipline must be practiced by everyone who would be a worker for God. This will accomplish more than eloquence or the most brilliant talents. An ordinary mind, well disciplined, will accomplish more and higher work than will the most highly educated mind and the greatest talents without self-control. "

     "In preparing the way for Christ's first advent, he was a representative of those who are to prepare a people for our Lord's second coming. The world is given to self-indulgence. Errors and fables abound. Satan's snares for destroying are multiplied. All who would perfect holiness in the fear of God must learn the lessons of temperance and self-control. The appetites and passions must be held in subjection to the higher powers of the mind. This self-discipline is essential to that mental strength and spiritual insight which will enable us to understand and to practice the sacred truths of God's word. For this reason temperance finds its place in the work of preparation for Christ's second coming. " CC Ch. 265
 
     "But such a character is not the result of accident; it is not due to special favors or endowments of Providence. A noble character is the result of self-discipline, of the subjection of the lower to the higher nature--the surrender of self for the service of love to God and man."  {Ed 57.4}

 The necessary, sacred home duties seem commonplace and uninteresting to them. They have no love for self-examination or self-discipline. The mind hungers for the varying, exciting scenes of worldly life; children are neglected for the indulgence of inclination; and the recording angel writes, "Unprofitable servants." God designs that our minds should not be purposeless, but should accomplish good in this life.  {FE 31.2}   

   "The highest evidence of nobility in a Christian is self-control. He who can stand unmoved amid a storm of abuse is one of God's heroes. To rule the spirit is to keep self under discipline; to resist evil; to regulate every word and deed by God's great standard of righteousness. He who has learned to rule his spirit will rise above the slights, the rebuffs, the annoyances, to which we are daily exposed, and these will cease to cast a gloom over his spirit.  {AG 256.2} 
     It is God's purpose that the kingly power of sanctified reason, controlled by divine grace, shall bear sway in the lives of human beings. He who rules his spirit is in possession of this power. AG 256.3

It all ties together in a package deal.

There is no possible way to know if we are in a right relationship with God if we do not look beyond feelings and words to actual fruit. This is not works. It is evidence.

You quoted "There is in the religious world a theory of sanctification which is false in itself and dangerous in its influence. In many cases those who profess sanctification do not possess the genuine article. Their sanctification consists in talk and will worship." {CCh 50.2}

This is my point. A lot of talk about a relationship with God is often just that, "talking" and wishful thinking.  Jesus said, " If ye love me keep my commandments." John 14:15

Many today take that to mean " have a warm feeling toward God and people." That generic thinking can make just about every kind of sin acceptable under another category. The fallacy of salvation in sin is neither Justification or sanctification no matter how many time it is greased up and pushed through under another name.
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: ColporteurK on June 18, 2016, 11:48:19 AM
AA Ch. 55

     Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.

It is not only surrendering but by striving and putting forth effort that we attain. Let's not divorce one from the other.
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: Listen on June 18, 2016, 05:23:01 PM
So what is sanctification, and what part does "the power of the will" play?

Another ? would be what is the difference between  "the power of the will"  and choice.

This is rather simplistic but how I keep it strait.
 Justification is surrender.  Sanctification is maintaining surrender daily. 
Whether it is the will powered by God or moment by moment choosing God's will it is full surrender to God.  It all comes down to choice.  Do I choose my way or God's.
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: newbie on June 18, 2016, 05:26:18 PM
So what is sanctification, and what part does "the power of the will" play?

Another ? would be what is the difference between  "the power of the will"  and choice.

This is rather simplistic but how I keep it strait.
 Justification is surrender.  Sanctification is maintaining surrender daily. 
Whether it is the will powered by God or moment by moment choosing God's will it is full surrender to God.  It all comes down to choice.  Do I choose my way or God's.
this is what I believe it means as well... we make many choices throughout the day and are those choices the right ones? correct ones? if they are, then it is according to the will of God
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 18, 2016, 06:28:29 PM
The point is simply this --

I see no Savior in the emphases.
According to your (Colporteurs) choice of quotes -- sanctification is only a "self-disciplined"  battle against sin, not a "newness of life" in Christ.

Therefore there is something very much missing here.


Self discipline (as good and needed as it is to lead a consistent life) is not the same as sanctification.
And those quotes from EGW do not say they are the same.
Self discipline is necessary, yes, we can't just let our feelings rule, we must place our feelings, our will under Christ's will, that's true, but self-discipline still not the same as sanctification.
 
We have to be careful not to misuse of EGW writings, lifting quotes from her overall presentation on the matter, compiling her strongest statements to enforce an idea in a way that it skews the subject so it no longer agrees  with scripture, or her overall presentation on salvation.
 

Sanctification is "holiness" -- being set apart for Christ and by Christ to be holy.
Yes, it definitely includes putting away sin, but how is that done?

There are a lot of "self-disciplined" people in the world who aren't sanctified.

A well trained child, who has accomplished great feats that astonish the world (like the child musicians from Asia who at five years old can play complicated classical pieces with amazing skill ) have experienced enormous self control and persistent discipline to achieve -- but are they sanctified?

The desert monks were extremely disciplined, denying self, and engaging in spiritual exercises, separating themselves from the world and the material comforts of life -- were they sanctified?

Martin Luther, who later became a great reformer, sought sanctification with great intensity and physical and spiritual self discipline, but sank only in deeper darkness, fearing God, filled with terror at the thought of dying since he realized he still had not reached perfect sanctification.   Then he found the truths of salvation in Christ and longed to be enabled to open to people's minds the true riches of the grace of God and the excellence of salvation obtained through Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. 

Where is the emphases?
Is it in the right place?

Yes, there is a battle -- (self discipline is needed, but self discipline is NOT sanctification)
Are we to fight the symptoms or do we get to the root of the problem?
Often the symptoms are just the "tip of iceberg" there is something much deeper that needs to be addressed, something that self-discipline won't address.

What is our motive in the first place?

 
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 18, 2016, 06:43:07 PM
So what is sanctification, and what part does "the power of the will" play?

Another ? would be what is the difference between  "the power of the will"  and choice.

This is rather simplistic but how I keep it strait.
 Justification is surrender.  Sanctification is maintaining surrender daily. 
Whether it is the will powered by God or moment by moment choosing God's will it is full surrender to God.  It all comes down to choice.  Do I choose my way or God's.

Very true -- the power of the Will is to be used to choose to follow Christ, no matter what.

Justification is not only surrender, it is much, much more.
When we understand Justification fully, we will be like Mary and her bottle of expensive ointment,( as we studied in our Sabbath School lesson for today), -- so filled with gratitude and love for our Savior, that we want to give Him our all, and bow at His feet in love and tears.

Sanctification is walking with Christ, abiding in Him, placing our will under His will --" thy will be done, Lord, not my will -- how do You want me to serve you today?  How can I best glorify your name, today?" 
 It is much more than overcoming sin, it is a transformed life, living for Christ.
"can two walk together lest they agree"  If you are continually conscious of Christ's presence, filling your mind with His Word, communicating with Him in prayer, as you go through your day, will you be actively sinning? 
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: ColporteurK on June 18, 2016, 08:50:18 PM
Dedication, you keep reading past my statements and I am not misusing the quotes from the SOP. I have made it very clear that all of the discipline that is called self is still coming from God and through the power of God but you refuse to except those statements as though they were not made. The self disciple that Mrs. White was talking about was not a mere form of discipline but the substance that comes with conversion. What I am trying to say but you do not get it is that profession minus fruit is just that. Tunnel vision will not let you look at any other aspect of this than the means to an end.

You are talking about the basis,means, and power by which salvation takes place. We have agreed on that. But you do not accept that which leads me to believe that you wish to debate. The other problem is that all of what you say means nothing if we do not see tangible evidence of justification, conversion, and sanctification. Rather than look at fruit and evidence you cannot get beyond the means of obedience. We cannot be certain we have the means right if we do not know how to examine the end. This is not that complicated as Listen brought out.
Self discipline cannot be divorced from sanctification. Morris Vendon used to say that to strive to obey God was legalism, period. That was a broad brush statement that was irresponsible. There will be no one saved who has not strived to obey God. That too is a part of our sanctification. It is an aspect of the process and God does not save us without our cooperation.  While this is only one aspect it cannot be divorced from the whole. James was pretty clear on that.
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: ColporteurK on June 18, 2016, 08:58:41 PM
Sanctification is walking with Christ, abiding in Him, placing our will under His will --" thy will be done, Lord, not my will -- how do You want me to serve you today?  How can I best glorify your name, today?" 
 It is much more than overcoming sin, it is a transformed life, living for Christ.
"can two walk together lest they agree"  If you are continually conscious of Christ's presence, filling your mind with His Word, communicating with Him in prayer, as you go through your day, will you be actively sinning?

What do you mean it ( sanctification) is much more than overcoming sin ? Sin cannot be overcome without a transformed life. It can be faked but only for a short time and that is not "overcoming sin." Sin begins in the mind. Once again you are separating overcoming sin with sanctification. That cannot be done.

If we are continually conscious of Christ's presence, filling our mind with His Word, communicating with Him in prayer, as we go through our day, we will not be sinning, period. What do you mean "actively sinning" ? Any time we sin in any knowledgeable way we have separated from one or more of the virtues you expressed.

Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 18, 2016, 11:01:22 PM
Yes, and I've also been saying that profession without fruit is useless.
That's not the issue.

Where I think you find my posts a problem is that I also include a pious looking disciplined life as having potential of being fake sanctification --  as Paul writes:

Romans  10:1   Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 
 10:2   For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 
 10:3   For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 

Nor have I ever left "us" out of the equation.   I've simply been stressing the central mandate in sanctification is a firm resolution to place our wills under Christ's will.
Do you think doing our will in opposition to Christ's will, is placing our will under Christ's will?
I don't think so.

Placing our will under Christ's will does far more in overcoming sin, than us tackling a sin.  Tackling a sin gives one a sense of "I've arrived", while daily placing our will under Christ's will, asking Him to lead and show us His will, reveals things in our lives that we never even realized were sin before, but the Holy Spirit prompts us -- that's not the way -- this is the way, walk in it.

I do think it's important for us  to change the primary focus in living a sanctified life.  Away from looking at self in "overcoming sin" to looking to Jesus and seeking to "bring glory to God's name" by our love and obedience to Him.
The first method tends to work to elevate self in the eyes of God, while  the second works to elevate God and His saving power.
And the second does work miracles! 
 

Also the statement that sanctification--
" is much more than overcoming sin, it is a transformed life, living for Christ"
isn't separating "overcoming sin" and "sanctification, as you assumed.

The sentence is saying there is much more to sanctification -- it's a transformed life, living for Christ.

From what I've assumed, and maybe I'm wrong in my assumption,  you can correct me if that is the case, but I've assumed from reading some of the comments that you and some others made in which  sin was defined as "actions"  of transgressing of God's law.
So what do you mean by "a transformed life" -- transformed actions?

I believe sin is much deeper than actions, it is our very nature -- selfishness, pride, the desire to exalt self.

A transformed life is absolutely necessary for genuine overcoming of sin, I fully agree!!!
Our selfishness must be changed to selflessness
our pride to humility and dependence on Christ
our desire to exalt self to exalting our Savior and esteeming others before ourselves.
That kind of transformation comes only from a deep contemplation of the cross and the sacrifice made there by a God of love for our deliverance from the prison house of sin.  Nor is it a one time thing -- we are admonished to spend a thoughtful hour every day on the last scenes of Christ's life, death and resurrection.

If we are continually conscious of Christ's presence, filling our mind with His Word, communicating with Him in prayer, as we go through our day, we will not be actively sinning.  We will not be deliberately sinning or going against His will, but seeking to abide by His will. 
But we still realize there is more that needs changing in our lives.   The holy Spirit is constantly pointing out new areas in our lives that still need cleaning.
To say we are not sinning period, is pure presumption, and the biggest hindrance to sanctifying growth.
There is no stopping place -- Christ leads us higher and higher in the life of sanctification -- we still have a huge way to go before reaching the holiness of Christ.
We may slip and fall, but we immediately get up and confess and cling to Christ.  There will still be things in our lives that the  Holy Spirit needs to bring to our attention which needs cleaning out.  But we won't be deliberately sinning.

I'm finding out that there are lots of sins that are far more grievous in the sight of God than the standard recognized sins --
There are also sins of omission -- consider Matt. 25:41-46 what is that determines the character of sheep from goats?
Never are we to say, we have stopped sinning period.  That's like putting up a roadblock saying -- Holy Spirit, this is far enough,
 




Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 19, 2016, 01:17:05 AM
Dedication, you keep reading past my statements
I'm sorry if I did. 
However, it seems you are also reading past my statements.
I've never said we are to base sanctification on feelings. NEVER.
I've repeatedly spoken of obedience.
We are to place our will UNDER (or on the side of)  Christ's will and walk with (abide with) Christ in obedience.

To place ones will under or on the side of Christ's will, is not basing anything on emotional feeling.
It's a definite resolution to follow Christ's will, no matter what the cost to ourselves.
The only "feeling" is our love for Christ, and that love is based on principle established as we view the cross, and what it cost Him to save us from sin,   that principle of love continues strong even without emotional feelings.
We do read in scripture that we are to love God with all our hearts, souls, and spirit.
And our neighbor as ourselves.   That love is based on principle.

Walking and abiding in Christ in obedience, --- does not translate to
 walking in disobedience against His will, it remains walking and abiding in Christ in obedience.
 

 
Quote from: ColporteurK
The self disciple that Mrs. White was talking about was not a mere form of discipline but the substance that comes with conversion.

Yet the quotes pertaining to the training of the child were not the same as sanctification, but only giving the child the tools which will make sanctification easier.
Reread the quote:

"The parent or teacher who by such instruction trains the child to self-control will be the most useful and permanently successful. To the superficial observer his work may not appear to the best advantage; it may not be valued so highly as that of the one who holds the mind and will of the child under absolute authority; but after years will show the result of the better method of training."

Why aren't the "fruits" obvious right away when a child is taught self-control?
Because he isn't converted,  -- he is only being given the "tools" that will make it easier to place his will under Christ's will?

Too often we want to see the "fruits" right away in others, and try to enforce them with our authority -- but those aren't true fruits.



Quote
You are talking about the basis, means, and power by which salvation takes place. We have agreed on that.


I'm talking about the basis, means and power by which sanctification takes place.
It is by abiding in Christ, in obedience to His will, through the leading of the Holy Spirit,

And it is not MERE profession, it is the living way.

Having been justified,
John 15:3   Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 
 15:4   Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 
 15:5   I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
2 C0r 10:5   Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; ,,,
1 Peter 1:2 through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: ColporteurK on June 19, 2016, 06:29:29 AM

From what I've assumed, and maybe I'm wrong in my assumption,  you can correct me if that is the case, but I've assumed from reading some of the comments that you and some others made in which  sin was defined as "actions"  of transgressing of God's law.
So what do you mean by "a transformed life" -- transformed actions?


To say we are not sinning period, is pure presumption, and the biggest hindrance to sanctifying growth.
There is no stopping place -- Christ leads us higher and higher in the life of sanctification -- we still have a huge way to go before reaching the holiness of Christ.
We may slip and fall, but we immediately get up and confess and cling to Christ.  There will still be things in our lives that the  Holy Spirit needs to bring to our attention which needs cleaning out.  But we won't be deliberately sinning.

Yes, sin begins in the mind but it is reflected in the actions. If a person kills someone surely we agree that the action is sin. However, the thought that led to the action is the root of the sin. Both is sin. We cannot read the mind but we can often have a better idea by the actions/ fruit /behavior.

Regarding the second quote, you misquoted me slightly which changed the meaning. I did not say that we are to go around saying or assuming that we have stopped sinning.  That is the way you are presenting my statement. I said that if we are truly united with Christ we will stop sinning, period ( known sin). Any time someone has sinned they have stepped away from Christ, even if for just a moment and by a thought. This is why we need to be connected always. One lax moment even in thought is a dangerous thing. One CANNOT have consistently  transformed actions without a transformed life. It is impossible.

Lastly, you speak of "deliberate sin."  All known sin is deliberate. If a person is truly ignorant of sin it is not deliberate. However, accidental sin is still sin, as long as it is known. In other words, someone may not intend to lose their temper. A flash in the pan may not be premeditated. I suppose one could argue that it was still a split second premeditation but for the most part it was not planned. A child grabs a candy from another and runs. The child has an instant temper flair. It is an immediate reaction of selfish anger. That's still sin needed to be repented of, given the child is of the age of accountability. Perhaps you are talking about sins of ignorance.

When we are told that there is no stopping place that does not mean that all the work of sanctification is dealing with sin. There will be no stopping place in terms of sanctification in heaven either but sin will not continue. Not all growth in Christ is gaining victory over sin. There is a growth that is merely understanding the depth of the riches of God, the depth of His love and the purity if His character. That should not be confused with victory over selfish thoughts and actions. Sin ( in terms of any accountability) is defined as "the transgression of the law" even if only in the thoughts.

In terms of reaching the holiness of Christ I suppose that is a matter of perspective. I'm not sure that can happen without the knowledge and wisdom of God and that will never happen. An ingredient of holiness is understanding. True, we reflect the holiness of God. We are not holiness creators but holiness reflectors. Even that seems to me requires an understanding to reach depth and we will always fall short of the understanding of the Infinite. I guess this is getting a little philosophical.
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 19, 2016, 07:47:56 PM
That is where we differ.

Let's see if I get this right -- you say, sin is an action which begins when a person starts thinking about doing that sin?  That thought may have been pre-meditated over a length of time, or it may have been just a flash thought that explodes almost instantly into an action.

I believe sin is in our very nature, and we need to be transformed.
Selfishness is sin, pride is sin, hate is sin, even if we aren't planning any actions.
Selfishness is the very core of our natures which makes us carnal and incapable of living a righteous life.
We must be born again --

This is also why I cannot accept the view of the independent ministries, that Christ had a nature exactly like us.
When EGW says he took on humanities fallen nature,  yet without sin, I believe it was the PHYSICAL human body that was like any human body born at that time, but His mind, His spiritual nature was the "born again" "sanctified" nature, totally and completely without sin,  not the carnal nature with which we were born.

We must be "born again"  (John 3)
We need a "new heart" and a "new mind"
We need to be transformed, not just have a behavior modification.

Ezek.36:26   A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 
 36:27   And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes,

Christ is standing at the door of His church with His voice pleading ---"If any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in.... Revelation 3:20.   Why does Jesus picture Himself like this during the "last church" age?  Could it be that we, like Nicodemus, are still blinded by self?  We (through the whole ranks from the worldly liberal to the strict conservatives) the body of Adventists, have yet to see that Christians are born (born again)  not made by modifying our behavior yet retaining our nature.

By the way -- I agree with your thoughts that we are to "reflect" Christ's nature, we are not "little Christ's", no more than the moon is the sun, it reflects the suns brightness.   And throughout eternity as we behold His glory and reach a deeper understanding of the holiness of Christ, we continue to grow in holiness.
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: Listen on June 19, 2016, 09:32:06 PM
This is also why I cannot accept the view of the independent ministries, that Christ had a nature exactly like us.

Who do you mean by the independent ministries?  That is a rather broad brush. 
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 20, 2016, 03:31:00 PM
Christ came as like us as possible to do, yet without sinful propensities.  As the Old Testament symbols and types are studied that is what they teach. 

God called Job - perfect - 3 times, translated Enoch & Elijah, Scripture says Christ was tempted in ALL points like ever other human is, yet without sin.

To redeem a debt means to buy collect and resolve the debt, inorder to buy the human debt, He purchased the species by three ways, (1.) became the representative of them all as the second Adam, (2.) as the fulfiller of all the Sanctuary types and symbols, became the vicarious substitute - Gethsemene - Trial - Calvary - prisoner in the Tomb, by His & Father God's & Holy Ghost's - wrath, against sin, (3.) eternal perpetual humanity / taken into His GodHead.

A created species willed to sin ( they saw everything there was to see and know - nothing remained that could convert them - they were judged and assigned to Gehenna hell - Jesus could not redeem their debt and perfect them, so He did not so He did not go through the process for them, thus the 1/3 of the angels were lost forever.

A created species willed to sin - Jesus saw He could save some - in the fulness of time He got as close to them as possible - without sin, and lived their life, and continued His union with Father God & the Holy Spirit - creating a perfect sinless humanity to implant in them to replace their sinful spiritual and in due time at the second coming their physical nature .
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 20, 2016, 08:42:45 PM
Dedication wrote: This is also why I cannot accept the view of the independent ministries, that Christ had a nature exactly like us.

Who do you mean by the independent ministries?  That is a rather broad brush.
Probably not the best way to phrase it, as there are quite a number of independent ministries and they don't all follow the same thinking.  I don't wish to get into names here -- as this isn't a who's who, discussion, but a search for truth on sanctification.

 It's just that it is mainly some independent ministries and their followers that highly stress their belief that Christ had a nature full of sin just like us, that He had to overcome, which He did without ever letting it express itself in word or action.
It is that interpretation that I can't accept.

“Sinful” is the adjective of sin, and as the Dictionary states its meaning “tainted with, or full of sin.”
What do we understand when we read in scripture about “sinful men” (Num 32:14), “sinful nation” (Is 1:4), “sinful Kingdom” (Amos 9:8 ) or when Jesus used the term in phrases such as “in this adulterous and sinful generation” (Mark 8:38) and “the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men” (Luke 24:7)?

Did you notice how scripture words it?

Romans 8:3 God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
Does "likeness of sinful flesh" mean the same as "sinful flesh" or similar to "sinful flesh"?
Is there a difference?  I believe there is.

Consider a person without HIV living among a group of HIV positive individuals. They look alike outwardly, they have the basic physical bodies, they all need to eat, sleep and tend to basic bodily needs. They communicate and make friends with each other. But there is one difference -- the  AIDS virus. The ones with HIV are dying.  The  healthy one without the AIDS virus is able to save and attend to the diseased one, but not vice versa.

And so Christ came in likeness of sinful human flesh, without the sin.
He had the same basic physical body as everyone else. But there was one difference -- the SIN virus. The ones with SIN are dying.  The ONE without SIN is able to save and  heal those diseased. 

I like Ed's sentence --
"Christ came as like us as possible to do, yet without sinful propensities...... He got as close to them as possible - without sin, and lived their life, and continued His union with Father God & the Holy Spirit - creating a perfect sinless humanity to implant in them to replace their sinful [nature]"




 
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: ColporteurK on June 22, 2016, 04:52:03 AM

I think the Bible has a better definition of sin than Webster's. "Sin is the transgression of the law."
Title: Re: THE POWER OF THE WILL
Post by: dedication on June 28, 2016, 07:28:28 PM

I think the Bible has a better definition of sin than Webster's. "Sin is the transgression of the law."

The English translation seems to lend itself to the concept that "sin is an action contrary to God's law.
Yet in the Greek  the word "anomia" is used three times in that verse!!!
Anomia, means "lawlessness" often translated as "iniquity", it can mean "acting" against the law, or just being against the law.

There are other texts that define sin as well

Romans 14:23 for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Pr. 21:4   An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing (or fallow ground, as in hard heart) of the wicked, is sin.

Pr.   24:9   The thought of foolishness is sin:

James 4:17   Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does not do it, to him it is sin.

1 John  5:17   All unrighteousness is sin: