Revival Sermons

Other Forums => What Would Be Your Counsel? => Topic started by: ColporteurK on March 19, 2016, 03:42:11 PM

Title: James and Ellen White
Post by: ColporteurK on March 19, 2016, 03:42:11 PM

  The pastor stated the following in a sermon today. What would be your response ?

There were three groups of thinking at the time of the great disappointment. The first group were those who believed the time prophecy was correct but that Jesus coming was the coming of Jesus in their hearts. These people believed that they must become as little children so they crawled around on their hands and knees and even into town that way. They ceased using forks and knives and ate with their hands.  They thought that Jesus was now in them and they could no longer sin. They took spiritual husband and wives and did un spiritual things with them. You may be shocked to know that James and Ellen White were part of this group."

Then he moved on in his sermon.
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: newbie on March 19, 2016, 04:37:35 PM
never heard of such a thing
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: V. Hahn on March 19, 2016, 08:18:53 PM
I would ask him for proof of this…and I might have asked him as soon as he said it, right in church!
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: Raven on March 20, 2016, 03:49:51 AM
I've heard of the phenomenon, but I believe he misrepresented the facts.  I don't believe that James and Ellen were ever involved in fanaticism of any kind.  I would pin the guy down and make him produce the evidence, which I don't think he can do.
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 20, 2016, 05:42:26 AM
It sounds similar to the "Age to Come" movement.  James & Ellen White were never part of it nor the false humility creeping on the floor, and always rebuked such. James for a time disbelieved about the eternal uncreated deity of Christ, but Bible study & SOP changed his thinking. 

Quote
The only remedy for the East is thorough discipline and organization. A spirit of fanaticism has ruled a certain class of Sabbathkeepers there; they have sipped but lightly at the fountain of truth and are unacquainted with the spirit of the message of the third angel. Nothing can be done for this class until their fanatical views are corrected. Some who were in the 1854 movement have brought along with them erroneous views, such as the nonresurrection of the wicked, and the future age, and they are seeking to unite these views and their past experience with the message of the third angel. They cannot do this; there is no concord between Christ and Belial. The nonresurrection of the wicked and their peculiar views of the age to come are gross errors which Satan has worked in among the last-day heresies to serve his own purpose to ruin souls. These errors can have no harmony with the message of heavenly origin.  {1T 411.2} 

 
Quote
There were quite a number of the First-day Adventists present. They are believers in the age to come, and disbelievers in the preexistence of Christ before He came to our world. Although I had not the slightest knowledge of the faith of those present, being a stranger to the people, yet the remarks were so fitting to those present that Brother Jones, elder of the church, said he thought they would accuse him of telling me; but we came directly into the meeting without one word of conversation with anyone. I dwelt particularly upon the divine character of Jesus Christ.  {MR1033 53.6} 

Quote
Chap. XI - Meeting Fanaticism

    As I returned to Portland, there were increasing evidences of the desolating effects of fanaticism. Some seemed to think that religion consisted in great excitement and noise. They would talk in a manner that would irritate unbelievers, and have an influence to arouse hatred against themselves and the doctrines they taught. Then they would rejoice that they suffered persecution. Unbelievers could see no consistency in such a course. The brethren in some places were prevented from assembling for meetings. The innocent suffered with the guilty.  {LS 85.1} 

     I carried a sad and heavy heart much of the time. It seemed so cruel that the cause of Christ should be injured by the course of these injudicious men. They were not only ruining their own souls, but placing upon the cause a stigma not easily removed. And Satan loved to have it so. It suited him well to see the truth handled by unsanctified men; to have it mixed with error, and then all together trampled in the dust. He looked with triumph upon the confused, scattered state of God's children.  {LS 85.2} 

     We trembled for the churches that were to be subjected to this spirit of fanaticism. My heart ached for God's people. Must they be deceived and led away by this false enthusiasm? I faithfully pronounced the warnings given me of the Lord; but they seemed to have little effect, except to make these persons of extreme views jealous of me.  {LS 85.3}
 
                  A False Humility

     There were some who professed great humility, and advocated creeping on the floor like children, as an evidence of their humility. They claimed that the words of Christ in Matthew 18:1-6 must have a literal fulfillment at this period, when they were looking for their Saviour to return. They would creep around their houses, on the street, over bridges, and in the church itself. {LS 85.4} 

    I told them plainly that this was not required; that the humility which God looked for in His people was to be shown by a Christlike life, not by creeping on the floor. All spiritual things are to be treated with sacred dignity. Humility and meekness are in accordance with the life of Christ, but they are to be shown in a dignified way.  {LS 86.1} 

     A Christian reveals true humility by showing the gentleness of Christ, by being always ready to help others, by speaking kind words and performing unselfish acts, which elevate and ennoble the most sacred message that has come to our world.  {LS 86.2}
 

 Christ in Luke 10:26 asked the question :  how readest thou?   So LS p- 85-86 is how I read,  to paint James & Ellen White as fanatics is a deliberate lie, and your pastor at that church in his sermon has lied.
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: ColporteurK on March 20, 2016, 07:49:15 PM

I was called by the pastor today. His reply was that he did not say EGW and James did those things. I relied that he did not need to. By associating them with the people that did these things it gives impression that they did. He did not supply any evidence but said when he took a look at the information again he found that there were several groups within the main group that for a time thought the second coming of Jesus was a coming of Jesus into their hearts. Even that I question and asked again for specific documentation. He said that there were several smaller groups who reacted to that kind of thinking differently and Ellen and James were in one of the smaller groups but not among those who did the crazy stuff. I certainly would like be blown away if I found that for a short period James and Ellen entertained the idea that this was so. After all, this was a tough think to bear and they were searching for a solution as to what happened. However, I still would like to see if even that was so.

#1 Is there any evidence that James and Ellen really thought that way at all ?
#2 And if they did, it is still irresponsible to present this as those there was one group and all were behaving the same.
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 20, 2016, 10:34:09 PM
Please read the entirety as context unveils the true picture. Part-1 of 2 due to 5K

Quote
Soon H., who had opposed me in Maine, came in great haste to Massachusetts with a document to destroy my influence. I have never had the privilege of reading it, or hearing it read, and have not been able to obtain a copy of it to this day. This document was read in my absence, when I could not answer for myself. As near as I can learn, H. got up the document, then urged a sister, who was occasionally with me during the two weeks of my extreme sickness, when my mind wandered, as stated on page 51, to sign it. She was then on a sick bed, suffering great confusion of mind, and to get rid of H., consented to have him sign her name to the document. At a later period this sister confessed to me in tears her regret that her name was ever attached to the document. She is not a Sabbath-keeper, yet has since cheerfully given her name to a certificate on another page which kills the slanderous document. May the Lord lead this sister to embrace the third message, and may we again enjoy sweet union as when at her altar of prayer, I had my first vision as stated on page 30.  {2SG 69.1} 

     We learned from one who had heard the document read in Boston and Roxbury, that H. had gone to Carver to read it there. At first I felt distressed. I could not see why God should suffer me thus to be reproached. I had to suffer anguish of spirit for others, and now my character was attacked. For a short time I sunk in discouragement. But as I went before the Lord with this severe trial, he gave me grace to bear it. His strong arm supported me. I was not suffering as an evil-doer, but for Christ's sake, and how many had suffered the same before me, even Jesus, the Saviour of the world, was reproached and falsely accused, and these words seemed ever before me, "Are ye able to drink of the cup?" Can "ye be baptized with the baptism?" I felt, as I was bowed before the Lord, that I could say, Let me know the fellowship of Christ's sufferings. I knew what was reported as being in that document was false, and Jesus knew it, then why should I be troubled? I fully believed that Jesus was soon to come, and then my name, which was handled so maliciously here, would be justified. I there consecrated myself, my name and all, to God, and with reconciliation could say, Only let my poor name be written in the Lamb's book of life, and men may handle it just as God suffers them. Let me suffer with Christ that I may reign with him.  {2SG 70.1} 

     My sister had previously gone to Carver, expecting Bro. Nichols to bring me in a few days. She was present at the reading of that document. She suffered on my account. H. said in the morning that he had been in a horror of darkness all night. No wonder. He feared my sister would expose him in his past fanatical course; but she would not condescend to mention those groveling acts of fanaticism in that portion of his career that she was acquainted with.  {2SG 71.1} 

     I bear no ill will to those who used me thus. In a little from this the slanderer and the liar will receive their reward. That which they have sown they shall also reap. I could look up and rejoice from the depths of my heart, that there was a living God, Judge over all, who is acquainted with every heart, and to him I committed my cause.  {2SG 71.2} 

    In a few weeks I visited Carver, and found that a few had been influenced by H. But in many instances where the way had been previously closed up, it was now opened, and I had more friends than I had before. There was a young sister in the house where we tarried who was subject to fits, and she was afflicted with this most distressing disease while we were there. All seemed to be alarmed. Some said, "Go for the doctor;" others, "Put on the tea-kettle for hot water." I felt the spirit of prayer. We prayed to the Lord to deliver the afflicted. In the name and strength of Jesus I put my arms around her, and lifted her up from the bed, and rebuked the power of Satan, and bid her, "Go free." She was instantly brought out of the fit, and praised the Lord with us. We had a solemn, refreshing season in this place. We told them that we had not come to defend character, or to expose the wickedness of men who were laboring to destroy our influence, but to do our Master's will, and God would take care of the result of the efforts made by designing men. Our hearts were strengthened and the church encouraged.  {2SG 71.3} 
   

   
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 22, 2016, 04:03:49 PM
James and Ellen White – combating-  spiritual view of Christ's coming
Part – 2  due to 5k

 
Quote
About this time sister C. S. Minor came from Philadelphia, and we met in Boston. Different errors were affecting the Advent people. The spiritual view of Christ's coming, that great deception of Satan, was ensnaring many, and we were often obliged, through a sense of duty, to bear a strong testimony against it. Sr. M.'s influence went in favor of spiritualism, although she felt unwilling to acknowledge it. Those who would stand clear from this influence were obliged to be decided, and have nothing to do with it, but in the fear of God bear their testimony against it.  {2SG 72.1} 

     As we were about to journey to New Bedford, a special message came to me from Sr. M. to come and relate what the Lord had shown me. Bro. N. took my sister and myself to the house where quite a number were collected. There were individuals present whom I had been shown were strong fanatics. They dealt in a human or satanic influence, and called it the Spirit of God. I had not seen them before with my natural eyes, yet their countenances were familiar; for their errors and corrupting influence had been shown me and I felt forbidden to relate my vision in such a company. There were some present that we loved; but they had been led away in this deception. The leading ones considered this a favorable opportunity to exert their influence over me, and cause me to yield to their views.  {2SG 72.2} 

     I knew their only object was to mangle the visions, spiritualize away their literal meaning, and throw a satanic influence upon me, and call it the power of God. Sr. M. addressed me, urging me to relate the visions. I respected her, but knew she was deceived in regard to that company. I refused to relate my vision to them, only that part which related to them. We told them we had no fellowship for their spirit, and in the name of God would resist it. They flattered; but it had no effect. Then they tried to terrify me, commanding me. They said it was my duty to tell them the visions. I faithfully warned those whom I believed to be honest, and begged them to renounce their errors, and leave the company that was leading them astray. I left them, free from their influence and spirit. A portion of that company in a few weeks were left to run into the basest fanaticism.  {2SG 73.1} 

     Those were troublesome times. If we had not stood stiffly then, we should have made shipwreck of our faith. Some said we were stubborn; but we were obliged to set our faces as a flint, and turn not to the right hand nor to the left. Those who believed in the spiritual coming of Christ, were so insinuating, like the serpent in the garden, to suit their purpose they would profess such a mild, meek spirit, that we had to be on our guard, strengthened on every side with scripture testimony concerning the literal, personal appearing of our Saviour.  {2SG 74.1} 

     I have often seen the lovely Jesus, that he is a person. I asked him if his Father was a person, and had a form like himself. Said Jesus, "I am in the express image of my Father's Person." I have often seen that the spiritual view took away the glory of heaven, and that in many minds the throne of David, and the lovely person of Jesus had been burned up in the fire of spiritualism.  {2SG 74.2} 

No time for comments, off to work.
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: ColporteurK on March 23, 2016, 08:14:43 AM
 Good stuff , Ed.  I should know the following but exactly when did EGW have her first vision relative to the Great Disappointment ? I'm thinking it was after 1844 thus the pastor would probably claim that the Whites
believed the false view but came out of it a little later. He would still have the burden however of providing evidence that they ever believed in that view. I want to nail this down if possible so no wiggle room is left.

If the claim is to be made ( without evidence) that the White's early on believed in the spiritual view would it not be a bit odd that EGW would so soundly condemn the view later  and never saying anything like, " we were ever learning and previously in error in our understanding on this."

In other words, so far there is no proof of the pastor's claim, and it does not even make logical sense given the writings that Ed has posted.

I think the pastor may  in two Sabbaths present a disclaimer  from the pulpit that the Whites believed the view but were not among those who behaved like children and had relations with spiritual husbands and spiritual wives. If he cannot supply evidence that the White's ever entertained the wrong view I believe he should come clean from the pulpit and reverse the entire claim.

Your's truly has taken issue with this ( the only one) and the pastor is not too happy with me of course. What else is new ? Some others are beginning to see the error but were it not brought to their attention it more or less went over their heads. The pastor said, " you seem to always be looking  for error." I replied that just as I do when canvassing I carefully analyze the whole program." In a sermon I note the good, the bad, and the ugly, when it reveals itself. It is too bad that so often the bad and the ugly comes forth.
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: newbie on March 23, 2016, 02:23:14 PM
her first vision was in december of 1844 I believe...

 It was not long after the passing of the time, in 1844, that my first vision was given me. I was visiting Mrs. Haines at Portland, a dear sister in Christ, whose heart was knit with mine; five of us, all women, were kneeling quietly at the family altar. While we were praying, the power of God came upon me as I had never felt it before. {CET 57.1}   

 From this time, up to December, 1844, my joys, trials, and disappointments were like those of my dear Advent friends around me. At this time I visited one of our Advent sisters, and in the morning we bowed around the family altar. It was not an exciting occasion, and there were but five of us present, all women. While I was praying, the power of God came upon me as I had never felt it before. I was wrapped in a vision of God's glory, and seemed to be rising higher and higher from the earth, and was shown something of the travels of the Advent people to the Holy City, as narrated below.  {EW 13.2}
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: ColporteurK on March 23, 2016, 05:54:37 PM

That would only leave the potential of adopting the view for a maximum of two months.
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 24, 2016, 06:50:43 AM
Quote
The pastor said, " you seem to always be looking  for error."
    Pastor, in Church I am nearsighted, when it is shoved in my face I notice it, I came to meet with Jesus who never lies, and you noticeably intruded by lying.
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: ColporteurK on March 25, 2016, 05:35:26 PM

If there were not red flags jumping out during almost every sermon I would not need to comment as I do. It is amazing what all goes over the heads of the people. It seems like in most instances one has to draw the people a picture and then paint a bulls-eye on it for them to be able to see that something is wrong. And even then they are not sure. It is not just the laity that is like this but leaders. Not all are like this but the vast majority of the people. The blind leading the blind.

I do not know how much of this is intentional and how much is carelessness. However, carelessness is in a sense, intentional. I believe that when our people compromise, the devil and his minions get into their heads and the confusion increases.
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: ColporteurK on March 25, 2016, 06:01:29 PM

The pastor says that the Whites held the errant view while they were talking about the Open and  Shut Door. I have not the time or inclination to search through all 122 hits on the Open and Shut Door to try to find a ghost but as I browse over the hits I did not see any quotes on this topic in 1844. All that I have seen were anywhere from 30-60 years later. That does not mean that there are none however, any quote after 1844 that would indicate that the White's held the erroneous view on the second coming of Christ would be problematic since they met that error and renounced it late in 1844.

Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: newbie on March 25, 2016, 08:16:56 PM
I do not believe that is true. 

When Jesus left the holy place and entered the most holy place, it was a shut door.  Just like the door that God shut on the ark to enclose Noah and his family.

 I saw the commandments of God and shut door could not be separated. I saw the time for the commandments of God to shine out to His people was when the door was opening in the inner apartment of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844. Then Jesus rose up and shut the door in the outer apartment and opened the door in the inner apartment and passed into the Most Holy Place, and the faith of Israel now reaches within the second veil where Jesus now stands by the ark. I saw that Jesus had opened the door in the Most Holy Place and no man can shut it; and that since Jesus had opened the door in the Most Holy Place the commandments have been shining out and God has been testing His people on the holy Sabbath.--Letter 5, 1849, pp. 1-3. (To Brother and Sister Hastings, March 24-30, 1849.)
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: Raven on March 26, 2016, 03:39:37 AM

The pastor says that the Whites held the errant view while they were talking about the Open and  Shut Door. I have not the time or inclination to search through all 122 hits on the Open and Shut Door to try to find a ghost but as I browse over the hits I did not see any quotes on this topic in 1844. All that I have seen were anywhere from 30-60 years later. That does not mean that there are none however, any quote after 1844 that would indicate that the White's held the erroneous view on the second coming of Christ would be problematic since they met that error and renounced it late in 1844.

Those who make erroneous claims about what Ellen White taught regarding the Shut Door, have taken what she said out of context.  I've read it more than once, and her belief about the shut door was in common with what the other Millerites believed, and did not come to her from any vision (as is often claimed).  The truth of the matter is explained in 1SM, 61-64.  Here is here statement on p. 63, which shows the claims of her detractors to be false:  "For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position."
Title: Re: James and Ellen White
Post by: ColporteurK on March 28, 2016, 07:27:53 AM
Thank you for that , Raven. What I am now wondering is, did that view include a spiritual second coming of Christ in the heart ( rather than coming in the clouds) or did it simply mean that probation had closed on the world ?

What I'm trying to dissect here is if that view ( you quoted) necessarily included a spiritual coming of Christ in the heart, (as the pastors says) or was that a separate view that rose up out of the first error.  In other words did Ellen White believe this too.. If not, he should correct that when (and if) he corrects his implied error that the Whites were in the group that acted out foolish and sinful holy flesh type maneuvers.

I read through I Selected Messages 61 and onward (much too quickly) but saw no indication that the Whites held to the view of a spiritual second coming in the heart. Personally, unless I have missed something I don't know how anyone would come up with that conclusion from these writings. They must have gotten this from some so called scholar or from some other SOP quotes. What are your thoughts, Raven ?