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Other Forums => What Would Be Your Counsel? => Topic started by: ColporteurK on December 21, 2015, 12:01:23 PM

Title: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on December 21, 2015, 12:01:23 PM
 Your new pastor has a ring (band) and his wife has a ring with a rock, and heels. The SS teacher made comment while teaching that his wife (middle aged) lady struggles with the jewelry issue even though she does not wear any. When women in the church wear jewelry it tempts her. The head elder says he knows the pastor's personal position on the ring. He said he does not disagree with your concerns but said its a matter of priority's. He said that he wants to help the pastor grow spiritually. You have expressed that while the pastor is left to grow spiritually what is happening with the flock as you have two (non SDA) wives of members who wear a goodly amount of jewelry and a few members wear rings.  It is apparent that the head elder will not face this and says that you should take it to the pastor. You express that you can do that but it will not carry as much weight as it will if the elders address this. He expects that the pastor and wife will continue wearing their rings and is afraid to meet this firmly. To meet it firmly might eventually require taking it to the conference, the conference who sent this pastor to you from another church in its own conference. The new pastor was sent on a moment's notice and the local church was not given the slightest bit of notice or feedback regarding the new pastor. The head elder said that the church should follow Mathew 18 regarding the rings. The only other elder agrees that the rings are wrong but what to do about it  when resistance is likely ?  You are the Personal Ministries leader. What would you do ?
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Tammy on December 21, 2015, 07:13:11 PM
Accept the fact that your pastor and his wife wear rings.  They are not going to change.  Even the World GC has accepted it, right?
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on December 21, 2015, 09:18:19 PM
Accept the fact that your pastor and his wife wear rings.  They are not going to change.  Even the World GC has accepted it, right?

By "accept the fact" would you suggest that the person not speak up about it?"

In a few churches the people have stood up (scant few however) and the rings have come off. If I understand correctly the GC has allowed plain bands not rings with stones.

Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 21, 2015, 11:05:10 PM
Accept the fact that your pastor and his wife wear rings.  They are not going to change.  Even the World GC has accepted it, right?

By "accept the fact" would you suggest that the person not speak up about it?"

In a few churches the people have stood up (scant few however) and the rings have come off. If I understand correctly the GC has allowed plain bands not rings with stones.
I would ask myself "Is this a mountain I want to die on?" There are "bigger fish to fry." If I decided to seriously take on this problem to what extent will I pay the price of being marginalized as a legalistic troublemaker and lose what influence I might have otherwise?
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Raven on December 22, 2015, 04:20:22 AM
This is one of those areas in which it's hard to get the horse back into the barn once the door has been removed.  The church erred when it gave permission for wedding bands in North American back in the 70's (or whenever it was).  Ellen White made it clear that only in those countries (such as in Europe) where it is obligatory, should anyone wear a ring to show that they are married.  And then it should be minimal and inexpensive.

Once that door was opened in NA, all the other jewelry began to appear.  It didn't help that there used to be a tradition of (instead of an engagement ring) guys were expected to buy an expensive watch for their fiancee.  Seems as if something got missed in translation, something about outward adorning of any kind.  And Jesus' message of not putting tradition above His word seems to have been forgotten for the most part.

I'm not sure the Jehu method will work.  I think on this issue leadership by example would be the best policy.  Encourage our people to read the SOP.  Each must be convinced in their own minds.  Certainly pastors and elders should be encouraged to lead by example.  There are tactful ways of approaching this, without "showing our zeal for the Lord," as Jehu did.

On the other hand, I suppose one could argue that a disk within the ear (I saw some huge ones recently) is not really an "earring."  :evil:  :roll:
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on December 22, 2015, 08:02:42 AM
On the other hand, I suppose one could argue that a disk within the ear (I saw some huge ones recently) is not really an "earring."  :evil:  :roll:

Like, we should not be throwing frisbees in church.  :-D

  While this may not be the mountain to die on, if we do not even address the obvious are we on the mountain ? Or, if we keep looking the other way simply because that's the way that it is, will we die in the lake ? We need to  be leading by example first, however, what is the example we are called to give ?  We are called to be modern day Elijah's.   Is that being a modern day Jehu ? Elijah took a pretty strong stand against paganism. Is it wrong for us to take a much lighter stand against paganism when our churches are looking like baal ? What is happening is that it is appearing to many that jewelry is acceptable because leadership is wearing it. When the culture of the church is changing/has changed how does God bring correction ? How will the straight testimony come and how will it be viewed by Laodicea ?

Needless to say this will not stop with the pastor and his wife. It is obvious that candidates will be baptized wearing jewelry. If culture has become the waymark we have largely lost the church as we know it.

Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: V. Hahn on December 22, 2015, 01:38:30 PM
I'm a lifelong Adventist.
For many years I was proud of the fact I didn't wear jewelry.
Then circumstances changed and I started to wear it (all kinds of jewelry) for several years, even in church.
Then I had a rebirth experience, including a wonderful rediscovery of Adventist doctrines.  One of the first things God convicted me of was to take off my jewelry.  However, I kept wearing the wedding ring (with a stone) all the time, because I was afraid of what my husband might say if I didn't.
Then I wore the ring during the week, but took it off when I went to church.
Then I stopped wearing the ring altogether.  (Yes, my husband was very upset.  Still is, kind of.)
Now I don't wear any jewelry, including pins.  (No, I'm no longer proud that I don't.  I just feel blessed.)

So I've run the gamut and I can tell you from experience two things:

1.  God does not want us to wear jewelry.  He let me know in no uncertain terms--but it included a rebirth experience.
2.  It can be a process.

Wearing jewelry is not an unimportant thing, but it seems to me to be a personal thing…between God and me.  We must pray for those who wear jewelry because it is probably a refection of a deeper spiritual problem, though it could also just be ignorance regarding the subject.  This subject handled wrongly could entrench them in their rebellion or even send a person out the church door, never to come back.

I'm thankful for a merciful God who draws us back to Him.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: V. Hahn on December 22, 2015, 01:50:23 PM
One other observation.  Forty years ago you could sit in a restaurant and know when a Seventh-day Adventist family walked in.  The first clue was they didn't wear any jewelry and little or no makeup (on the women, silly!).  The next was that they prayed before their meal.

We MUST be a peculiar people.  We MUST stand out from the crowd…in a good way. 

Many who call themselves Christians are mere human moralists. They have refused the gift which alone could enable them to honor Christ by representing Him to the world. The work of the Holy Spirit is to them a strange work. They are not doers of the word. The heavenly principles that distinguish those who are one with Christ from those who are one with the world have become almost indistinguishable. The professed followers of Christ are no longer a separate and peculiar people. The line of demarcation is indistinct. The people are subordinating themselves to the world, to its practices, its customs, its selfishness. The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world. {COL 315.3}

Ever remember what is due to our Christian profession as God’s peculiar people; and beware lest in the exercise of personal independence your influence may work against the purposes of God, and you, through Satan’s devices, become a stumbling block, directly in the way of those who are weak and halting. There is danger of giving our enemies occasion to blaspheme God and heap scorn upon believers in the truth.—Testimonies for the Church 5:477, 478 (1889).
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Carl on December 22, 2015, 04:09:45 PM
One other observation.  Forty years ago you could sit in a restaurant and know when a Seventh-day Adventist family walked in.  The first clue was they didn't wear any jewelry and little or no makeup (on the women, silly!).  The next was that they prayed before their meal.

We MUST be a peculiar people.  We MUST stand out from the crowd…in a good way. 

Many who call themselves Christians are mere human moralists. They have refused the gift which alone could enable them to honor Christ by representing Him to the world. The work of the Holy Spirit is to them a strange work. They are not doers of the word. The heavenly principles that distinguish those who are one with Christ from those who are one with the world have become almost indistinguishable. The professed followers of Christ are no longer a separate and peculiar people. The line of demarcation is indistinct. The people are subordinating themselves to the world, to its practices, its customs, its selfishness. The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world. {COL 315.3}

Ever remember what is due to our Christian profession as God’s peculiar people; and beware lest in the exercise of personal independence your influence may work against the purposes of God, and you, through Satan’s devices, become a stumbling block, directly in the way of those who are weak and halting. There is danger of giving our enemies occasion to blaspheme God and heap scorn upon believers in the truth.—Testimonies for the Church 5:477, 478 (1889).


So nice to hear these wonderful words, I think the whole SDA organization, especially the "leaders" should have a regular day set aside in which they read and contemplate. But then, would it do any good considering their headstrongness?
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Tammy on December 22, 2015, 07:51:28 PM
In a few churches the people have stood up (scant few however) and the rings have come off.

That is quite amazing!
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Tammy on December 22, 2015, 07:57:05 PM
If I understand correctly the GC has allowed plain bands not rings with stones.

Yea, I realize that, but........guess Raven explains it well about once the barn door is opened.  The GC maybe made a guideline, but guess they are not in the business of disciplining people if they don't follow it.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Tammy on December 22, 2015, 07:59:39 PM
Wearing jewelry is not an unimportant thing, but it seems to me to be a personal thing…between God and me. 

CP, I'm wondering if maybe V. Hahn has summarized it well here.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on December 22, 2015, 08:20:37 PM

 Should the wearing of jewelry be handled differently when clergy does so than the laity ?
And secondly, should a person be baptized wearing jewelry ?
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 23, 2015, 07:16:14 AM
From CP
Quote
 
(1) Should the wearing of jewelry be handled differently when clergy does so than the laity ?
No........... but a pastor thinks they are in charge .....they try to make the rules.... and kid gloves are needed for the over inflated ego.   They are still trying to be the Head Pastor, and forget they are an under-shepherd ..... they need to allow God to cause them to become converted and Bible Studies that explain that. 


(2)secondly, should a person be baptized wearing jewelry ?   
No   .......... because after proper Bible Studies ....... they are still trying to make the rules ........ they need to allow God to cause them to become converted and Bible Studies that explain that. 


Maybe this stuff would help if they started studying it.   http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/righteoua.htm    (http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/righteoua.htm)

  http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/righteoub.htm   (http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/righteoub.htm)
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: V. Hahn on December 23, 2015, 07:20:51 AM
Should the wearing of jewelry be handled differently when clergy does so than the laity ?

Ministers and their wives are held to a higher standard from what I read in God's Word and in the SOP.  This should probably be addressed, but still in a Christ-like manner. 

Just an aside:  From my experience and from the very few times I have stepped out to point something out to people I find that people do not like to be corrected.  I have not learned how to do this in a diplomatic way apparently.  I'm always surprised when I get negative reactions, because I think I'm saying things in the right way.  I always think to myself, "I would be open to it if someone was telling me something to help keep me on the right path or prevent me from being deceived."

For example, I pointed out (in a concerned way) to my non-SDA friend with whom I'm having Bible studies that the book she had been reading, "Jesus Calling," had error in it and should be avoided.  She got quite defensive and told me how much she was blessed by the book.  However, later she told me that she had put the book aside and was now using something (perhaps?) more in line with the Bible for her devotions.
 
So initially people might not like to be corrected, but then the Holy Spirit works on their hearts to make changes.

I've been corrected before and took the advice without problem, but this was after I had my born-again experience.  Looking back on my life I actually wish more people had come to me in a loving way and shown me my error in the way I was living my life.  Many people had the opportunity, but didn't bother for whatever reason.  It might have made me mad initially, but now the Holy Spirit can work on my heart.

An SDA wearing jewelry is in a state of rebellion (unless, of course, it is a new SDA in ignorance and they have not been told.)  Of course, when many women in the church are wearing jewelry, an unconsecrated person may think that it's okay without even studying into the matter. 

But the bottom line is that it is a deeper issue.  Once a person surrenders their life to Jesus, the Holy Spirit will lead them to take off outward adornment.  So maybe the emphasis should be on giving ourselves totally to Jesus to work in us His good work, because this is the most important thing anyway.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on December 23, 2015, 09:25:20 AM
    I agree that this is a symptom of a deeper problem if the person is truly  informed. Even some of these boys coming out of college who have studied theology are not informed. Often they have not read or even heard some of the SOP and they look at other church leaders and many of the laity and assume that it must be alright or else all these other people would not be doing it. We may not know just how much light the pastor has seen on this. He may have seen plenty and he may not have and is just following the world. He would obviously know something about this but just how much we may not know.
 
     Once the pastor and wife have been shown what Inspiration says then the question is, " if they continue in the same vain how should it be handled ?

I believe that it is a more serious matter when leadership is in rebellion than a lay person. In the army it would obviously be more serious  if captain is in rebellion than a private, the reason being that the captain is leading many while the private is leading few or none. The Captain has accepted the charge to lead many men. It is that much more necessary to deal swiftly with rebellion before it permeates the whole army. While the private can influence the men to some extent he is not in an official leadership role commanding others.

Some try to say that the Captain is no different than the others, that the pastor is the same as the laity and therefore should be treated exactly the same. The question that contradicts that view is " does the pastor effect and influence the church exactly like a layperson ? Of course not. People do not run to a new convert with a question or a problem. They usually go the pastor or elder . Everyone knows that the pastor and the elders carry more of a position of authority and therefore it is more important that rebellion or treason be dealt with more swiftly or else the cause will be lost as the army apostatizes.

The idea of "well that's just the way it is, accept it" is an attitude of defeatism. I had a pastor who openly declared that he does not believe that the two beasts of Rev. 13 are the papacy and the US and openly said that he does not believe that the NSL is the mark of the beast and yet he asked if we could work together. The answer is " work on what?"  We are called to give the 3AM. if we do not believe them how can we work together to give them ?
How can Personal Ministry leaders and elders work with a pastor who sends the message of vanity to all, does not believe the SOP/Bible  and who would want to baptize people who wear jewelry ?

Another question is when a person is ill and the "symptom" of a deeper problem is also a problem is the symptom ignored until the deeper problem is resolved ?  If a person is sick and has a fever the fever is not in itself the main problem but it can become a problem. The fever is the body's attempt to kill the bug. However, when the fever gets above 105 degrees the fever itself is also a problem; one that can cause permanent damage and even death. The symptom itself can become the greater problem.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Carl on December 23, 2015, 01:37:21 PM
This and so many other things just befuddles me. As time progresses on, they become more and more lax in everything, aligning closer to the world. If the world were to continue on for another fifty years, what would they look like? would there be any semblance of the SDA principles as we know them?

The biggest thing is, they/we have all been told countless times what will happen in the last days by God though His beloved sister White. YET, they all seem to have forgotten it or think it's a fairy tale, or it's not for our time or, just don't bother me with all that stuff, we're newagers and proud of it.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on December 23, 2015, 03:54:29 PM


That's right ,Carl. Rebellion has a lot of different excuses. It can be rightly said that all these low standards are symptoms of a bigger problem. However, it is also being said that we must just learn to accept it among leadership. I am under the opinion that we need not accept it and the symptoms as well as the underlying problem must be dealt. We cannot really address the underlying problem because it is a heart problem and we cannot change the heart. However, we can insist that among leadership that obvious  symptoms must be corrected even if the heart is still not right.
    We want our children to obey us from the heart. However, sometimes the bottom, must be adjusted in order to get through to the top;  to the heart of the matter. I guess what I'm saying is that if a leader of the flock refuses to see the problem and implement change that is his free choice. However, there are consequences to our choices. Being  pastor, leader, or even a church member has a some basic requirements. If those are not  met there is a disqualification. This is true in every other aspect of life. Why not in the church of all places ?
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: newbie on December 24, 2015, 10:14:51 PM
                                             Tattoos and jewelry
Lev 19:28  Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.

1Ti 2:9  In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;


Exo_33:5  For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.

1Pe 3:3  Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4  But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
--------------------------------------

In this day of atonement, we should be putting off all adornment and putting on the inward Spirit of God instead.
One who looks to the world and not the bible and sop is showing who their god really is...
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on January 06, 2016, 12:27:31 PM
The hypocrisy is that often when people wear rings and rocks the rationalization is that "it is to protect our marriage" and to " keep guys from hitting on me." However, when for instance, a woman wears tall heels and tight pants or a short skirt and a garment with a low neckline and mascara they are sending out invitations to be hit on. Are they doing that to protect their marriage ? It is a tease. One can wear clothing like this, bat the eyes, and come on way too friendly and the ring becomes very invisible in terms of protecting a marriage.

The problem is that rings do NOT send the message " closed for business." If all other indicators say " closed for business" there is no real purpose for a ring and a rock.

Rings come off as easily as clothes come off, if the former is even necessary.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on January 06, 2016, 12:39:05 PM

 Recently we had a situation where our former pastor's wife ( who was a DJ) wore jewelry outside of church. She wore it at work and displayed pictures of herself on facebook but took it off when she came to church.. She was witnessing to a young lady ( non SDA) she worked with at an insurance company. The lady started coming to church. The pastor and his wife were moved and another pastor brought in. The young lady ( 30 ish) wears jewelry when she comes to church. One Sabbath the SS teacher made comment that his wife struggles with jewelry and when people wear it in church it is a temptation for her.  After church the young lady said, I'm so stupid. I'm a fool."   We have not seen her since. We do not know to what extent she was offended as her attendance was spotty anyway. However, one thing we know for sure is that she was confused about jewelry. Now our new pastor and his wife wear rings. The wife wears a ring w a rock, very talk heels and tight clothing. If this lady comes back to church what is she to think ?  This is the kind of damage and confusion brought about when leadership does not teach or live modestly.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on January 06, 2016, 12:46:59 PM

Analogy-   A pizza shop up town has a sign in the window saying "closed." However, the lights are on. People are coming in and going out carrying pizza. How effective is the sign  to those that drive up and are hungry ?
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Carl on January 06, 2016, 02:47:25 PM
The problem is that rings do NOT send the message " closed for business." If all other indicators say " closed for business" there is no real purpose for a ring and a rock.
Rings come off as easily as clothes come off, if the former is even necessary.

Going by the popularity of the recent Ashley Madison dating site scandal, being married is more desirable.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: newbie on January 06, 2016, 05:39:17 PM

Analogy-   A pizza shop up town has a sign in the window saying "closed." However, the lights are on. People are coming in and going out carrying pizza. How effective is the sign  to those that drive up and are hungry ?
good analogy
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on February 15, 2016, 08:58:36 AM
To buttress the rings and things issue your pastor uses words and phrases from behind the pulpit like "Adam and Eve were butt naked" and "excuse my language but store bought tomatoes su_k."  What does that indicate and how would you deal with it ? Can you image James or Ellen White preaching like that ?
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Carl on February 15, 2016, 09:47:24 AM
To buttress the rings and things issue your pastor uses words and phrases from behind the pulpit like "Adam and Eve were butt naked" and "excuse my language but store bought tomatoes su_k."  What does that indicate and how would you deal with it ? Can you image James or Ellen White preaching like that ?
Is he a pretty young pastor?
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 15, 2016, 12:02:49 PM
If your church has a pastor that has questionable theology, and is leaning far to the left in things like wo and/or the emerging church, ignores the Spirit of prophecy and the 3AM, of course it is appropriate for an elder, or any member for that matter, to sit down with him and share your concerns. (Be sure and have a second person with you)!
However, according to recent statements by two very experienced and reliable conservative pastors, the reality is that as long as the local pastor is in harmony with the views of the conference, it is not likely anything will change. This is an old saying: "we go by the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules." Local pastors are hired and paid by the conference. The pastor works for the conference. The local church may have influence, but that is the extent of their leverage. Also, I believe that a conference ministerial director would necessarily feel that his main responsibility is to support the pastor, unless the pastor has an obvious major problem.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: ColporteurK on February 15, 2016, 07:58:28 PM
The pastor is in his early thirties. I would not have talked that way in church even as a Catholic. I would have talked like that in a bar.
Title: Re: Rings and Things
Post by: newbie on February 15, 2016, 10:12:34 PM
If your church has a pastor that has questionable theology, and is leaning far to the left in things like wo and/or the emerging church, ignores the Spirit of prophecy and the 3AM, of course it is appropriate for an elder, or any member for that matter, to sit down with him and share your concerns. (Be sure and have a second person with you)!
However, according to recent statements by two very experienced and reliable conservative pastors, the reality is that as long as the local pastor is in harmony with the views of the conference, it is not likely anything will change. This is an old saying: "we go by the golden rule. He who has the gold makes the rules." Local pastors are hired and paid by the conference. The pastor works for the conference. The local church may have influence, but that is the extent of their leverage. Also, I believe that a conference ministerial director would necessarily feel that his main responsibility is to support the pastor, unless the pastor has an obvious major problem.
in my short life in the church, I have found this to be oh so true