Revival Sermons

Theology => The Sabbath => Topic started by: ColporteurK on August 13, 2014, 12:53:37 PM

Title: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on August 13, 2014, 12:53:37 PM
I did not want to start a new topic but was not sure where to put this question.

 I have watched several times the series of messages by Christian Berdahl on music. It is the most interesting soul convicting message I have ever seen on music and is applicable for all ages. I very much want to get this before our church members. Probably the people that most need to hear this message will not give it a chance if I give it to them to listen to at home because they know it will cut across their lives. If they were to listen to 5 minutes I think they would watch the whole series, however, I doubt they will put it in their player. I would very much like to play it at church Sabbath as my sermon.

Here is the concern. There are perhaps 8-10, 10 second clips of music scattered throughout the message that is anywhere from compromised to terrible. He shares this to show people what he is talking about and for them to be able to analyze what is the syncopated beat and sensual delivery of even good words in so called Christian rock.

It is not Sabbath appropriate accept perhaps as a teaching tool. It's kind of like playing a clip where the Pope invites protestants to come home. There is probably no other way I am going to get many of these people to listen to this and when they do I do not see how they cannot be convicted. However, those clips sound loathsome to me. I do not want to play even little 10 seconds clips of this stuff on Sabbath but I intensely want the congregation to hear the message. What would you suggest ?
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: Tammy on August 13, 2014, 03:11:25 PM
My vote would be against presenting this for Sabbath worship service, or anytime on Sabbath.  Our church already has a real problem with reverence and acceptable worship, compared to what He taught them in the wilderness.  And yes, I believe He is still the same God who is particular about how we worship Him.

I applaud, though, your concern and desire to share it with ones who need to hear it.  But I'm probably a pessimist, as I can't picture anyone who likes the not-pleasing-to-God type of music, as actually making a decision to change after viewing the series.  I believe the HS has the power to convict people, but just doubting them being open to being convicted. 

Is this a contradiction in my thinking?  Seriously, I want to know.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: newbie on August 13, 2014, 04:01:54 PM
CP if they NEED to hear it then they may turn on you like sharks circling the prey... 

however, if you feel compelled to show this by the Holy spirit then by all means go ahead with it and pray much...  maybe not during the sermon but after potluck?

I've tried to share these kinds of things to sda audiences.... result is  that they think I'm judging them and pointing the finger at them and they don't like it...  they'd rather stay in their worldly world.  I've come to the conclusion that I can only change myself.  So, I've stopped sharing what I've found out....they really don't want to hear it.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on August 13, 2014, 05:00:42 PM
When I said "they need to hear it " I meant, they probably have not heard anything like that. We all need to hear it. One thing I have considered is that this could be used against me, for  instance " he has been saying we need reverent music in the sanctuary and look at what he brings in!" If a few key people listen to this they may be convicted and promote it to those who would listen to them as a go between. I guess we cannot force people to listen to it. It's like I said today to a customer who purchased books from me. They are drinkers, smokers, and so on and live by choice like slum people. They made all kinds of excuses for not paying for their books. I explained that one less can of beer and one less candy bar a day would pay for their entire set of books. ( Their yard is strewn with cigarette butts and beer cans) I said "it is not my duty to make choices for you but to present options. It is a matter of priorities." The same is true when it comes to our people availing themselves of knowledge. I believe people listening to this series will be  convicted. How they react to that conviction is another thing. Thank you for your responses. Sometimes I am tempted to consider renting a hall and showing some of these things to the public.

Probably the safest place to play the dvds is in someone's living room.

Have any of you seen the series I'm talking about , "The Distraction Dilemma?"
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 13, 2014, 05:13:30 PM
CP if they NEED to hear it then they may turn on you like sharks circling the prey... 

however, if you feel compelled to show this by the Holy spirit then by all means go ahead with it and pray much...  maybe not during the sermon but after potluck?

I've tried to share these kinds of things to sda audiences.... result is  that they think I'm judging them and pointing the finger at them and they don't like it...  they'd rather stay in their worldly world.  I've come to the conclusion that I can only change myself.  So, I've stopped sharing what I've found out....they really don't want to hear it.
Cp, I don't have a copy of Christian Berdahl's presentations but as soon as I get one I will definitely show one for the worship service if it is not too long. As a matter of fact, we need a speaker for Aug. 30. If anyone has an extra copy to send, I will use it then. They are the best that I know of on that subject.  After about 50 or so minutes our little group starts getting restless, but they can go for an hour if it is interesting. Also we have 2 or 3 diabetics. As for the brief examples of the music he is talking about, I see it is as necessary to make sure the people know exactly what he means. I don't believe that is breaking the Sabbath. Also Christian Berdahl does not have a scolding attitude and doesn't beat people over the head with his message. As you said, it is heart convicting.

Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on August 13, 2014, 05:33:08 PM
   Larry;

 You had to go and make things difficult just when I was backpeddling.  :-D I appreciate your insight.

You can down load the series free on the internet. Christian Berdahl invites us to do so. His full series is a total of 12 hours. The series he did at Hartland was condensed into 4 meetings of about 75-90 minutes each. You would have to cut out the last part and either show it after lunch, another time, or just drop it. I think many would return to  hear more after listening to the first 50 minutes. They are far from boring and only the drowsiest saint would tire of them. IMO they are just as informative as the meetings by Walter Veith and hold the attention of the people. I could watch the Berdahl meetings  several hours (the second time through) without getting weary of it. However, some are more prone for snooze than myself during such meetings. I am often amazed at how some people can sleep while I am at rapt attention. My thoughts are "how  in  the world could you sleep through that !?" :-o

If I were to play one of the messages (and only one) at church it would be the second of the four and cut off the last 15-20 minutes. If you want a copy I'll snail mail you one. I have a burner and the messages copied at Hartland are not copyrighted. Ideally I would play all four of the meetings at different stages.

I suppose if someone is going to find fault with his messages they will do so no matter when or where they are played.  Probably the dynamics of the church itself may factor in. I am well respected in my church but viewed as "ultra conservative" " perhaps a bit too straight laced and very outspoken. Imagine that !  :-D  I was asked to speak and have a host of ideas and at one point thought to digest the Berdahl messages and give them personally but there is no way I can come close to duplicating the effect he has with his clips and experience.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on August 13, 2014, 06:05:52 PM
    Incidently, Christian is in process of putting together a series on media such as TV, computer, movies etc.,etc.. I'm certain they will be excellent. Right now his wife Coby is critically ill and he is cutting is speaking engagements in half. It is inspiring to hear his personally testimony. His childhood was a near catastrophe with sexual, physical and verbal abuse. Almost all of his terribly dysfunctional family have come around over time through his witness and prayers. His genetic father sexually abused him while he was drunk and did not even know it. He learned of it when he saw Christian's testimony on the internet. He called Christian to ask if it was so and when he talked with his son his heart melted and he felt terrible. Reconciliation took place and he is coming to the Lord. The same with his mother, and brothers. Christian gave his testimony one night at Hartland before a group of visiting Mennonites. Many of them were visibly moved by the testimony.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: newbie on August 14, 2014, 10:12:07 AM
let's suppose it is a great hit and everyone that hears the messages decides to get rid of their music that does not meet the criteria...  now here's the question:  What do you do with the CDs that cost tons of money?  Do you sell them?  Give them away?  Or put them in the garbage?

A friend of mine when he heard our message had the same problem with all the pork he had in his freezer... what to do with it?  Do you throw it away?  Give it away?  Sell it?
In the end, he cooked it all up and gave it to the dog.  Big smile on dog's face.  Feeding unclean to unclean is okay isn't it?
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on August 14, 2014, 12:55:55 PM
let's suppose it is a great hit and everyone that hears the messages decides to get rid of their music that does not meet the criteria...  now here's the question:  What do you do with the CDs that cost tons of money?  Do you sell them?  Give them away?  Or put them in the garbage?

A friend of mine when he heard our message had the same problem with all the pork he had in his freezer... what to do with it?  Do you throw it away?  Give it away?  Sell it?
In the end, he cooked it all up and gave it to the dog.  Big smile on dog's face.  Feeding unclean to unclean is okay isn't it?

For me that's easy. The CDs are part of a communal, church, target practice, celebration, so no one can glean them from the garbage. You see, I AM for the celebration movement. However, it is unrealistic to think there will be a sweeping reform in that church. Even so, if it helps one person or even if it does not, it has given them every reason to separate from that kind of music. They cannot claim ignorance.

I think feeding the meat to the bouser is a good idea. A woofer's dream comes true ! They eat it in the wild.

When I first joined the SDA church I was convicted to take a statue I spent a good deal of time meticulously hand painting and use the sledge hammer on it. I did not want anyone to rescue "the Virgin" and perpetuate idolatry. My wife kind of freaked over it, not  that she really cared about the statue but for me to be so soundly convicted that direction was hard for her to accept. Its most easy to be a Catholic. She never did come around. We parted company and she has gone through two marriages since and one before me.

I think it depends on what the product is. Sister White was given some fish (clean I'm sure) as a gift from the village fisherman. She thanked them for their generosity and accepted the gift. Then she turned around and gave the fish away to others. Of course this was a century ago when the lakes were not so contaminated as today.

Personally, I would never sell or give away CDs, dvds, books, or videos that would damage another.


Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 14, 2014, 05:13:09 PM
There is a text, probably in Leviticus, that gives permission to the Israelites to sell meat that they are forbidden to eat to those who were not part of the Children of Israel. There may be a principle there  that would apply.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 15, 2014, 12:00:39 PM
Deuteronomy 14:21  Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on August 15, 2014, 12:54:14 PM
Deuteronomy 14:21  Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.

I'm contemplating what may seem to qualifiy to be given away or sold and what does not. I am assuming since God's people were not to be raising pigs that the animal that dies of itself would be clean. Surely the Lord  did not mean for them to sell dogs for food. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around selling perhaps a diseased cow to a stranger. It seems like there must be some unknowns regarding the texts.

I wonder if selling the flesh to strangers was the lesser of two evils, so to speak. Surely a people that was often stiff necked would not want to dispose of a 1200 lb. cow when it looked healthy but died on its own. Were the people eating these animals and refusing to discard them ? I don't know but given some of the things they were doing that would seem likely or else why the ruling at all ? It would be better that they give it away or sell it than to eat it. Surely, God did not want anyone to eat that which was diseased or a threat to their health.

There were times when God's people were given rulings on slavery when to some of our thinking they ought to have been told to stop it all together.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 15, 2014, 04:26:28 PM
An Adventist pastor who was I think a  Union Conference official, was visiting an Eskimo villiage in the far north where there was Adventist outreach happening. He sat in on a Bible study given by the Bible worker to a small group in a house of a woman who was very interested. It happened that the study was on clean and unclean meats. When it came up that pork was unclean, the woman made a sound, not loud, but a sound of concern. The pastor could see that outside on the porch there was a large frozen unopened package labeled "pork chops" that had been delivered by the mail plane which was the only source of food from the city. The pastor understood that that package of meat cost a considerable amount of money. Obviously the woman was in a dilemma.

The pastor from whom I heard this directly via DVD said that his advice would have been to tell her to go ahead and use the meat, but don't buy any more. It turned out that there was some kind of villiage gathering or celebration, so she cooked up the pork chops for the celebration and let the neighbors eat them.  :-D
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on August 16, 2014, 12:44:57 PM
An Adventist pastor who was I think a  Union Conference official, was visiting an Eskimo villiage in the far north where there was Adventist outreach happening. He sat in on a Bible study given by the Bible worker to a small group in a house of a woman who was very interested. It happened that the study was on clean and unclean meats. When it came up that pork was unclean, the woman made a sound, not loud, but a sound of concern. The pastor could see that outside on the porch there was a large frozen unopened package labeled "pork chops" that had been delivered by the mail plane which was the only source of food from the city. The pastor understood that that package of meat cost a considerable amount of money. Obviously the woman was in a dilemma.

The pastor from whom I heard this directly via DVD said that his advice would have been to tell her to go ahead and use the meat, but don't buy any more. It turned out that there was some kind of villiage gathering or celebration, so she cooked up the pork chops for the celebration and let the neighbors eat them.  :-D

The principle was.... "love thy neighbor as thyself ?"  :-D
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: Tammy on September 19, 2014, 04:43:30 PM
What are your thoughts about a cooking class given on Sabbath afternoons?  Our church is doing it.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on September 19, 2014, 05:55:37 PM
A very slippery slope. It would be very easy to divert off into "work" a lot of work. It is likely that people would want to taste test the samples. That means snacking.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on September 19, 2014, 06:20:54 PM
 
     In the news today "DUNKIN' DONUTS REFUSES TO HIRE SABBATH-KEEPER"

 That is interesting on more than one count. While it is not fair and reasonable to refuse to hire a Sabbath keeper  on the other hand, from the perspective of the church what is healthy about coffee and donuts ?  Perhaps the man is a new church member but maybe God is sending messages to all involved.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: newbie on September 19, 2014, 06:46:02 PM
Tough call
need more information
is this the only job available?
We live in tough times.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 19, 2014, 10:44:43 PM
quoting :   
Quote
Re: Sabbath Question
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2014, 04:43:30 PM »
Quote
What are your thoughts about a cooking class given on Sabbath afternoons?  Our church is doing it. 



Human options can not set policy of right or wrong with God, only God's Word and God's Testifying  ( SOP ) < what God has said >, can set such policies, principles, such teaching, such boundaries.  Because right and wrong are both results of God's work of Divine creation, when He created and delivered and explained such boundaries.   Such is a function of Divine rulership.

Exodus 16:4-30 

Quote
Cooking on the Sabbath should be avoided; but it is not therefore necessary to eat cold food. In cold weather the food prepared the day before should be heated. And let the meals, however simple, be palatable and attractive. Especially in families where there are children, it is well, on the Sabbath, to provide something that will be regarded as a treat, something the family do not have every day. 401 {CCh 226.2}

June 1, 1897 Cooking on the Sabbath.     By Mrs. E. G. White.   {RH, June 1, 1897 par. 1 - 11}  concluded - {RH, June 8, 1897 par. 1-17 }   

Deuteronomy 29:29

“Divided heart*” = 66 SOP hits

What the Revelation means to us - EGW article - {RH, August 31, 1897 par. 1 - 17} notice paragraph 16, regarding the army of the Lord.    Can any SDA have a heart single to God and cook on Sabbath after reading What Jesus has testified in Scripture & SOP ?   Satan is sly and when ever God limits something to do, or not do, at a specific time, or a specific place , Satan pushes the envelope to violate time, place, or content, or motives - whatever suits a divided practice and a divided heart.    The trap Balaam set for Israel in the desert and at BaalPeor .

Can righteousness by faith be extended to us as people or individuals with a stubbornly divided heart & life - knowing better, but acting out, known iniquity, doing what God forbids be done on Sabbath ? 

James 1: 
1 ¶  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 ¶  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


( James “dead letter” ) = 2 hits    Read surrounding several paragraphs   {PH086 13.1 - 24.2}  notice “divided service” .

"double minded* " = 82 SOP quotes - there is helpful information there.
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on May 28, 2015, 08:24:34 PM

What are your thoughts on taking the canoe out on a Sabbath afternoon ?
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: newbie on May 29, 2015, 04:54:03 PM

What are your thoughts on taking the canoe out on a Sabbath afternoon ?
depends on what you plan to do...
  shoot the rapids
  race
  fishing
  camping
  enjoying the scenery
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: Ed Sutton on September 17, 2015, 06:15:20 AM
There was a time EGW had them do vigorous boating on Sabbath. 

Quote
     
3SM - Selected Messages Book 3 (1980)    Chap. 29 - The Sabbath: Guiding Principles in Sabbath Observance

The Sabbath a Day of Service.--The first Sabbath of the week of prayer was a day of earnest activity. From "Sunnyside" and the school, two teams and a boat were sent to Dora Creek to bring to the meetings those who were not able to walk so far. The people had been invited to bring their lunch, and come to the meeting prepared to spend the day, and they responded freely to the invitation.  {3SM 258.5}
 
     Some were much surprised that we would exert ourselves on the Sabbath to bring them to the meeting. They had been taught that Sundaykeeping consisted largely in physical inactivity; and they thought that because we were zealous in the matter of Sabbathkeeping, we would keep it according to the teachings of the Pharisees.  {3SM 259.1} 

     We told our friends that in the matter of keeping the Sabbath, we studied the example and teachings of Christ whose Sabbaths were often spent in earnest effort to heal and to teach; that we believed that one of our sisters who was nursing a sick family was keeping the Sabbath as much as the one who was leading a division in the  Sabbath school; that Christ could not please the Pharisees of His day, and that we did not expect that our efforts to serve the Lord would satisfy the Pharisees of our day.--The Review and Herald, Oct. 18, 1898.  {3SM 259.2} 

     Sacred and Secular Activities.--The priests in the temple performed greater labor on the Sabbath than upon other days. The same labor in secular business would be sinful; but the work of the priests was in the service of God.--The Desire of Ages, p. 285.  {3SM 259.3}     
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: ColporteurK on May 07, 2016, 03:52:34 PM
Today a retired pastor and I had a firm disagreement in Sabbathschool regarding Sabbath observance. How would you respond ?  He said that some SDAs would go so far as to try to tell someone that rented his farmland that he cannot do work on his property on the Sabbath. The teacher and another handled this very well when they said, " why not rent the land to an SDA ?"  The pastor said that this would be making this a deal about money.  Huh ?I responded that people rent out property all the time with contingencies. Often home owners will not rent their house out to people with dogs and cats.

Well what if there were no SDAs in the area ? I don't see a problem at all with writing in the rental agreement that no work could be done on the Sabbath on the property. In Exodus 20:10 it says that no one within our gates is to work on Sabbath. The pastor said that we as SDAs tend to major in minors and minor with majors. In my mind verse 10 is clear enough.

     
Title: Re: Sabbath Question
Post by: newbie on May 07, 2016, 09:35:07 PM
never thought about it...

but for repairs and such and mowings we always stipulate no Saturdays..

good opportunity to witness as some people still have never heard about the Sabbath