Revival Sermons

Theology => Sanctification => Topic started by: ColporteurK on June 16, 2014, 01:28:17 PM

Title: Eating and Salvation
Post by: ColporteurK on June 16, 2014, 01:28:17 PM
 How many times we hear that what we eat has absolutely nothing to do  with our salvation.
Is this true ?

 Ezekiel  16:49   Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Obviously it is not iniquitous to eat enough food. However gluttony is iniquity.

Proverbs 23:20   Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: 
 23:21   For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe [a man] with rags.

Will those who repent not of over eating, being rioters eaters of flesh, and being drunkards be saved ?

It seems clear that uncontrolled eating is iniquity and therefore a salvation issue. Notice  that both what we drink and what we eat affects the only area of the body that the Lord is able to communicate with, the brain and the mind. If the brain is clouded and drowsy we cannot hear the voice of God. We are saved because we are able to discern the Word and will of God and respond to it correctly. Do we wonder why, often we may share the clearest truth with someone in the church  only to hear, " I don't see it" .?  Do we wonder why so much seems to go in through one ear and out through the other ?  

 I Cor. 10:31   Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

If we  are called to eat and drink in a way that brings  glory of God it follows that we can eat and drink in a way that dishonors God.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on June 16, 2014, 03:58:40 PM
while what you say is true, it is much more than this...  and we cannot make anyone do the right thing... they must be convinced for themselves otherwise it is just works...

the reverse is not true either... salvation by not eating cheese doesn't work either....  can you imagine?

it is a mind set thing... one must be totally convinced in their mind of what is right...otherwise it will never hold
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: ColporteurK on June 17, 2014, 05:54:40 AM
while what you say is true, it is much more than this...  and we cannot make anyone do the right thing... they must be convinced for themselves otherwise it is just works...

the reverse is not true either... salvation by not eating cheese doesn't work either....  can you imagine?

it is a mind set thing... one must be totally convinced in their mind of what is right...otherwise it will never hold

No, we cannot make anyone do the right thing but we can give the right message so as to counteract those who who seek to stifle the convictions of others.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 17, 2014, 06:21:09 AM
While Jesus is our ONLY righteousness and eternal life & salvation is His Gift according to His mercy, it is on conditions.

Romans 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Quote
what we eat has absolutely nothing to do  with our salvation.

I respectfully beg to differ with their less than Biblically accurate opinion

Acts 15:20  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:
28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25  As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

One of the members of the GodHead Himself weighs in RE food, classing it right up there with equal weight as commandment breaking ( 2nd and 7th commandments no less).

(eat*  abom*  ) Bible Texts

Leviticus 7:18  And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.

Leviticus 7:21  Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Leviticus 11:11  They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

Leviticus 11:13  And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,

Leviticus 11:41  And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

Leviticus 11:42  Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.

Leviticus 19:7  And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted.

Deuteronomy 14:3  Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.



Isaiah 65:4  Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine’s flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

Isaiah 66:14  And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
15 ¶  For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16  For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17  They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
18  For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

Ezekiel 4:14  Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth.

Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:27  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 17, 2014, 06:34:53 AM
5k limit

2 Corinthians 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Ephesians 5:5  For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 17, 2014, 06:55:10 AM
This is a bit off topic, but people who rely on meat substitutes to replace meat may have jumped from the frying pan into the fire.

There are many meat substitutes now that are being marketed to the increasing number of vegetarians and vegans. In the past many Adventists relied on Loma Linda and Worthington and other brands of products that they often used to take the place of meat. Now there are many more companies selling meat substitutes. However, most of them, including the old familiar Loma Linda and Worthington brands contain toxic substances that cause damage, particularly to brain and nervous system. On Adventist doctor I know told me just yesterday that Adventists would be much better off eating meat than eating the meat substituties containing gluten and other toxic substances.  It is getting to the point that there is not much to buy in a grocery store unless we can find organic fruits and vegetables. Just about all canned, boxed, packaged processed foods contain unhealthy substances.

Incidentally Dr. David Perlmutter, a neurologist, in his book "Grain Brain--The Surprising truth about Wheat, Carbs, and Sugar,--Your Brain's Silent Killers" Claims to treat many different disorders including Parkinson's disease and other movement disorders as well as many other problems by simply getting them on a gluten free diet.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: sdazeal on June 17, 2014, 07:47:38 AM
If you are speaking strictly in terms of health, that is one thing, and is still debatable. However, nothing with eyes and a mom was cruelly raised, tortured and destroyed to make Big Franks. "Frank-ly" speaking, health is not my main motivation for being a vegetarian, animal cruelty is. Meat analogues are fine if not overdone. And because they are so expensive we do not eat them as often as we would be eating flesh food, if we were including meat in our diet. Moreover, I have never heard of mad cow disease or e-coli in analogues. How many food recalls of analogues have there been? Just as there are those who say eating soy products causes cancer. I guess it depends on which industry you want to listen to.

What I have found often is that those who pluck the moat of "soy and veggie meat" out of our eyes are content with the beam of sodium nitrite, carcinogens and fat in their own eyes. I have a co-worker who was lecturing me on the evils of meat analogues while downing a McDonalds double bacon cheeseburger. But regardless, eating meat has proved itself dangerous and unhealthy ( See "The China Study"), both to us and the animals they abuse and kill, and no amount of condemning analogues and soy will make flesh foods safer or more healthy.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: ColporteurK on June 17, 2014, 10:04:23 AM
Anything can be debated but I would no more want to try to debate in favor of flesh eating that in favor of evolution. Even our fingernails, teeth and colon testify against a flesh diet. Even if meat were 100% disease  free it is most unhealthy especially given our weak minds and bodies. Then add the gmo, chemical laden food they are fed, steroids, antibiotics, etc etc.. But even if none of that existed, meat is difficult to digest, fiber free, and containing fat and blood in most instances. Even from the animal protein standpoint alone there are issues.

 I remember years ago a church member who would quote EGW ad nausium. I mean to the point of making weary even the most staunch SOP proponents like myself.   :-P Of course those who were not so favorable to the SOP loathed his comments. When the ABC mobile arrived he would back his car up to it and fill the trunk with analogs until the wheel wells were almost resting on the wheels. Later he had a  sexual relationship with his best friend's girl friend and was cozying up to the ladies in church stating that they were to meet the old timers needs.

I did not realize for some time how much analogs were junk food. But over time we have learned that there is not a healthy one unless you make it from scratch out of bulger burger or oatmeat etc.. I am beginning to think the same is true about fake cheese accepting that made from scratch. Analogs were meant to be transitional from terrible to bad to good to ideal where possible. Many get stuck on the transitional food. It is tough to find anything good in veggie burger plus it smells like cat food.  :-D  I have never tasted cat food but I have a feeling that there is not much difference in taste as my nose is a pretty good gauge regarding flavor. Phoney baloney foods contain everything from food coloring to hydrogenated oil to soy isolate to etc.etc.etc.. They may not carry disease like meat but may cause it just as much so. I prefer not to have to choose between cancer and a stroke.

As you can see, I have a view.  :-D

Incidentally it was only one bite of the wrong thing that sent the first two people to the grave and at high risk for their salvation.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 17, 2014, 12:50:11 PM
I agree that meat is not a good substitute for fake meat.  :-) It appears more and more obvious that Ellen White's counsel that having a garden if possible, and growing as much of our own food as we can is the healthiest way to go. I wonder if over a period of time, Satan has prepared the way to attack Adventists, (especially in their brains),  who believe that they have a healthy diet by causing problems with things that in former days were healthy, but now have been changed by centuries of cross pollination, gmo and altering plants to the point that they are not the same plants that our ancestors ate and many are said to have neuro-toxic properties.  Not to mention the depletion of the soil's natural nutrients by the practices of agribusiness plus the processing and adding chemicals to the products of the food industry who are "killing us softly." Another dangerous "silent killer" is sugar. Even with decades of warning by mainstream medicine, there are higher levels of sugar than ever before in all kinds of processed foods. Beer makers are apparently selling soft drinks now. Yesterday I saw a 12 oz bottle of "orange creme" soda under a "classy" beer makers label that had an enormous amount of sugar listed in the ingredients. I don't think I have seen that much in a soft drink before. For some people, sugar is about as addicting as alcohol is for others.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Raven on June 17, 2014, 04:50:40 PM
I've probably said this before but one of the major problems with meat analogues (and meat has the same problem) is that it is concentrated protein.  Most Americans eat way too much protein, which leaches calcium from the bones and contributes to osteoporosis--even if one takes calcium supplements.  All the protein we need is found in a balanced diet of fruits, nuts, grains, and vegetables.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: sdazeal on June 17, 2014, 05:40:18 PM
Yes, Larry, the  very best Root Beer and Orange Cream soda money can buy is made and sold by Henry Weinhards, an Oregon-based beer company. How do I know this? Hmmmm.....  :-D
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on June 17, 2014, 05:57:46 PM
I've probably said this before but one of the major problems with meat analogues (and meat has the same problem) is that it is concentrated protein.  Most Americans eat way too much protein, which leaches calcium from the bones and contributes to osteoporosis--even if one takes calcium supplements.  All the protein we need is found in a balanced diet of fruits, nuts, grains, and vegetables.
this is so true...  the meat analogues are especially bad for pre-diabetics and the general public as well... isolated soy protein and isolated wheat protein are just two of the main ones.... what people do not realize is that the processing methods give rise to toxic levels of free aspartic acid and glutamic acid (MSG)
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on June 17, 2014, 05:59:14 PM
while what you say is true, it is much more than this...  and we cannot make anyone do the right thing... they must be convinced for themselves otherwise it is just works...

the reverse is not true either... salvation by not eating cheese doesn't work either....  can you imagine?

it is a mind set thing... one must be totally convinced in their mind of what is right...otherwise it will never hold

No, we cannot make anyone do the right thing but we can give the right message so as to counteract those who who seek to stifle the convictions of others.
agree
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 18, 2014, 05:56:01 AM
You have seen my stance on one side of the coin, dealing with one extreme, here is the other side of the coin and dealing with the other extreme.

Quote
  Discussions may be entered into by mortals strenuously advocating creature merit, and each man striving for the supremacy, but they simply do not know that all the time, in principle and character, they are misrepresenting the truth as it is in Jesus. They are in a fog of bewilderment. They need the divine love of God which is represented by gold tried in the fire; they need the white raiment of Christ's pure character; and they need the heavenly eyesalve that they might discern with astonishment the utter worthlessness of creature merit to earn the wages of eternal life. There may be a fervor of labor and an intense affection, high and noble achievement of intellect, a breadth of understanding, and the humblest self-abasement, laid at the feet of our Redeemer; but there is not one jot more than the grace and talent first given of God. There must be nothing less given than duty prescribes, and there cannot be one jot more given than they have first received; and all must be laid upon the fire of Christ's righteousness to cleanse it from its earthly odor before it rises in a cloud of fragrant incense to the great Jehovah and is accepted as a sweet savor.  {FW 23.2} 

     I ask, How can I present this matter as it is? The Lord Jesus imparts all the powers, all the grace, all the penitence, all the inclination, all the pardon of sins, in presenting His righteousness for man to grasp by living faith--which is also the gift of God. If you would gather together everything that is good and holy and noble and lovely in man and then present the subject to the angels of God as acting a part in the salvation of the human soul or in merit, the proposition would be rejected as treason. Standing in the presence of their Creator and looking upon the unsurpassed glory which enshrouds His person, they are looking upon the Lamb of God given from the foundation of the world to a life of humiliation, to be rejected of sinful men, to be despised, to be crucified. Who can measure the infinity of the sacrifice!  {FW 24.1} 

     Christ for our sakes became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. And any works that man can render to God will be far less than nothingness. My requests are made acceptable only because they are laid upon Christ's righteousness. The idea of doing anything to merit the grace of pardon is fallacy from beginning to end. "Lord, in my hand no price I bring, simply to Thy cross I cling."  {FW 24.2}
 
                   What Man Cannot Do

     Man can achieve no praiseworthy exploits that give him any glory. Men are in the habit of glorifying men and exalting men. It makes me shudder to see or hear of it, for there have been revealed to me not a few cases where the homelife and inner work of the hearts of those very men are full of selfishness. They are corrupt, polluted, vile; and nothing that comes from all their doings can elevate them with God, for all that they do is an abomination in His sight. There can be no true conversion without the giving up of sin, and the aggravating character of sin is not discerned. With an acuteness of perception never reached by mortal sight, angels of God discern that beings hampered with corrupting influences, with unclean souls and hands, are deciding their destiny for eternity; and yet many have little sense of what constitutes sin and the remedy.  {FW 24.3}
 
     
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 18, 2014, 05:57:17 AM
5 k limit

Quote
We hear so many things preached in regard to the conversion of the soul that are not the truth. Men are educated to think that if a man repents he shall be pardoned, supposing that repentance is the way, the door, into heaven; that there is a certain assured value in repentance to buy for him forgiveness. Can man repent of himself? No more than he can pardon himself. Tears, sighs, resolutions--all these are but the proper exercise of the faculties God has given to man, and the turning from sin in the amendment of a life which is God's. Where is the merit in the man to earn his salvation, or to place before God something that is valuable and excellent? Can an offering of money, houses, lands, place yourself on the deserving list? Impossible!  {FW 25.1}
 
     There is danger in regarding justification by faith as placing merit on faith. When you take the righteousness of Christ as a free gift you are justified freely through the redemption of Christ. What is faith? "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). It is an assent of the understanding to God's words which binds the heart in willing consecration and service to God, Who gave the understanding, Who moved on the heart, Who first drew the mind to view Christ on the cross of Calvary. Faith is rendering to God the intellectual powers, abandonment of the mind and will to God, and making Christ the only door to enter into the kingdom of heaven.  {FW 25.2} 

     When men learn they cannot earn righteousness by their own merit of works, and they look with firm and entire reliance upon Jesus Christ as their only hope, there will not be so much of self and so little of Jesus. Souls and bodies are defiled and polluted by sin, the heart is estranged from God, yet many are struggling in their own finite strength to win salvation by good works. Jesus, they think, will do some of the saving; they must do the rest. They need to see by faith the righteousness of Christ as their only hope for time and for eternity.  {FW 25.3} 

This is part of the message EGW said was to lighten the Earth with the glory of the fourth angel.   I can disobey by what I eat and how and why, or I can do my duty and obey the laws of eating as God has stated them, but create merits by doing my duty when eating according to God's directions - NEVER.   My garden or supermarket can never atone, never justify, never impute and impart righteousness to me or anyone, it can be an avenue of displaying gratitude, love, and loyalty, feed me and others and act as medicine in limited ways, but it is only Cain and Able's thank offering, never anyone's sin offering.

Beware of righteousness by health message that is, was, will, never be God's mission for the health message, however betraying the health message, is betraying it's Author - Jesus Christ, because He sent it and it is Biblically recognized as His mandate .

It is part of what is included in what Scripture speaks of here.

Ecclesiastes 12:13  Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

It is included in not having other gods ( Philippians 3:19 belly vs Father of Lights, Thou shalt not steal ( not our own - bought with a price ), Thou shalt not kill ( destroying God's earthly temple and destroying our lives by slow suicide by deliberately bad eating ), etc. 

We have known folks who made their whole focus - self righteousness through temperance according to creature or Creator  made rules .   Romans 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

So now I have rendered my 2 cents RE both ditches of extremes RE the health message.

BTW the health food business God gave was always to stay SDA, never go to the world - it was a tool of healing for evangelism's use as the message spread.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on June 18, 2014, 11:53:18 AM
just have to say one thing.... there is no 4th angel...as that would imply a new message.... the message is repeated and is a part of the 3rd angel message...  I have to clarify this because Shepherd's Rod teaches that there is a new message of the 4th angel that was rejected by our SDA faith.... this is so untrue..  So be careful please to not call the Rev. 18:1 a 4th angel... EGW and bible refer to this angel as another angel which implies no new message...
God Bless All
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on June 18, 2014, 11:55:52 AM
back on topic  :wink:

I get hit with this scripture all the time.... what do you respond to this...

1Ti 4:3  Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4  For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5  For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: sdazeal on June 18, 2014, 12:06:40 PM
Context, context,context
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 18, 2014, 11:19:15 PM
"fourth angel" = 0 hits,  "forth angel' = 0 hits( "lightened with his glory" = 85 hits )  - point taken, it still seems I read the words "fourth angel" in EGW CD Rom somewhere  ?  ?  Memory issues  :-( 
**************************
1st Timothy 4:
1 ¶  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3  Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4  For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5  For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 ¶  If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Doctrines of Devils > Satan's seat - Satan's Power - Satan's authority - in the latter times  of Earth's history - (after - first Advent onward - see - in these last days >Hebrews 1:2 ) creating systems of Celibate Priests & celibate Nuns - forbidden to marry - Biblically literate persons forbidden to eat flesh during synthetic holy days to gain merit / and by practice denying RBF, holding all foods equal in God's sight- denying the doctrine of abomination/common & clean foods, denying the sanctification of Scripture + prayer, accepting only prayer, because Scripture forbids eating the abomination and assigns penalties of divine vengeance to such practices in defiance of Scripture.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on June 22, 2014, 05:46:59 PM
so do we have clear references from SOP telling us in the end times not to eat meat and to grow our own gardens?
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: ColporteurK on July 06, 2014, 09:54:08 AM
so do we have clear references from SOP telling us in the end times not to eat meat and to grow our own gardens?

And that we would have to move away from animal products of all kinds ? Can we quote and repeat that ? or is that off limits in the SDA church and on an SDA forum?
 
Many people are trying to play both sides. The prophet in their mind was half pregnant. Some consider the prophet not pregnant at all they just will not come out in the open with it. Not one in 20 (in the SDA church )would have been saved a century ago. We could only hope for that today. Some delight in all the murmuring in the church against the health message as though that is evidence that the church has not the truth or that the message is too extreme to live. The entire animal kingdom by nature eats raw food but to promote a diet that is 50 to 75% raw is considered out there. Many animals are by nature vegetarian. Not only their natural diet is proof of that but their digestive system and teeth indicate that. Humans are the same but to promote that diet is considered extreme. Animals by nature wean their babies from milk. Humans not only do not wean their babies from milk but they give them entirely the wrong kind of milk and milk that has a multitude of chemicals and substances harmful to humans, milk that ruins the bones over time. To say that, in the minds of some, is radical and even insane. The mixed multitude in Israel did not make Israel less than the remnant people of God in terms of the church militant, it just gave the church a lot of trouble. Then there were stragglers that followed Israel,  and attacked from the rear the weaker people.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: ColporteurK on July 06, 2014, 11:15:13 AM
back on topic  :wink:

I get hit with this scripture all the time.... what do you respond to this...

1Ti 4:3  Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4  For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5  For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

I believe the Lord Inspired verses like this for those who look for hooks to hang their doubts on and for those who wish to reject light. For those people context and consistency is irrelevant.

#1 Notice how  in verse 3 That there are two prongs not one. "Forbidding to marry"  is coupled with "commanding to abstain from meats".
A.  Are you Newbie, forbidding marriage per se ?
B. Are you "commanding" to abstain from meats or are you suggesting that they not be eaten? There is a difference between saying something is not right or best and commanding. Some would argue that we are  commanding but even if that were true we do not forbid marriage and the two go together.

#2  "meats" means "food." That  may or may not include animal flesh. There are other verses in Scripture that use the word "meat" or "meats" when the topic is obviously not animal flesh.

A. The definition of the Greek word for "creature"  is "that which is created." "That which is created" may be man, beast, or plant. Verses use this word in all three ways. Shall we advocate cannibalism ?

#3 God did not create animals for eating. Had not man sinned not a single animal would have been eaten.
Genesis tells us what God created for our food/ "meat."  It was every herb bearing seed. Genesis 1:29
Incidently, in this verse herbs are referred to as "meat."

#4 Even that flesh which God later allowed for food was with restrictions. Clean (parted hoof etc.)  without fat or blood and not torn by animals etc..

#5 Praying over something that God said not to consume does not make it good or holy. The context that harmonizes with other Scripture is ..... that which has been recommended by God as food. Since "creature" means" that which was created" are we to pray over poison mushrooms, rattle snake, or crude oil before we receive it for food ? I know of an SDA youth pastor who used verse 5 to advocate not refusing beer and bacon if it was served him by a non SDA friend at a restaurant. :roll:  Really, it was on a public forum. He is no longer there.  :wink:

While I think little of most other Bible translations several render certain parts of these verses as I have suggested. The following example has some aspects correct and some incorrect.

Vs 2 beginning with the last part " These liars will forbid people to marry or to eat certain foods. But God created these foods to be eaten with thankful hearts by his followers who know the truth. Everything God created is good. And if you give thanks, you may eat anything. What God has said and your prayer will make it fit to eat." CEV     Poor translation but some aspects are correct as bolded.

 The NIV, Moffitts translation, and even the JW translation ( NWT) renders the verses almost exactly the same as the CEV. They murder certain parts but they do have that which I have mentioned correct.

The Spanish translation proves this and the NKJV uses the word "foods" rather than "meats."
On a side note did God create GMO foods to be eaten ?
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: ColporteurK on July 06, 2014, 12:43:30 PM
The Gnostics first brought these things into Christianity and they have been perpetuated by the Monastic system. The priests are forbidden to marry and no fish on Friday as a show of denial is emphasized. Probably as the papacy looking to be the royal reformer of the last days will get more deeply into the realm of diet as well.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on July 06, 2014, 05:42:27 PM
thanks...

and yes, sometimes a spanish translation can give different light on things
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: ColporteurK on July 06, 2014, 06:12:40 PM
thanks...

and yes, sometimes a spanish translation can give different light on things

Yah,  the Spanish translation is the same as the others. I meant that it was just one more instance of the same.

1. In the text it is not necessarily flesh being referred  to.
2. The text also refers to liars. I forgot to mention that part
3. God did not create everything for food. That should be obvious. Some things are not as God created them at all but the result of sin and some things are lethally poisonous
4. Prayer does not work magic in terms of making something God said to leave alone, good and holy.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on July 07, 2014, 01:36:09 AM
Sanctification involves climbing Peter's Ladder 2nd Peter ch 1.
Sanctification is getting as close to God as He desires to draw you.

sanctified <37>
37. α(για/ζω hagiazo hag-ee-ad’-zo; from 40; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: —  hallow, be holy, sanctify.

sanctification <38>,
38. α(γιασμο/ς hagiasmos hag-ee-as-mos’; from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier: —  holiness, sanctification.

Quote
Our Saviour was the light of the world, but the world knew Him not. He was constantly employed in works of mercy, shedding light upon the pathway of all; yet He did not call upon those with whom He mingled to behold His unexampled virtue, His self-denial, self-sacrifice, and benevolence. The Jews did not admire such a life. They considered His religion worthless, because it did not accord with their standard of piety. They decided that Christ was not religious in spirit or character; for their religion consisted in display, in praying publicly, and in doing works of charity for effect. The most precious fruit of sanctification is the grace of meekness. When this grace presides in the soul, the disposition is molded by its influence. There is a continual waiting upon God and a submission of the will to His. {CCh 51.7}

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True sanctification is harmony with God, oneness with Him in character. It is received through obedience to those principles that are the transcript of His character.......{CCh 262.1}

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A large proportion of all the infirmities that afflict the human family, are the results of their own wrong habits, because of their willing ignorance, or of their disregard of the light which God has given in relation to the laws of their being. It is not possible for us to glorify God while living in violation of the laws of life. The heart cannot possibly maintain consecration to God while lustful appetite is indulged. A diseased body and disordered intellect, because of continual indulgence in hurtful lust, make sanctification of the body and spirit impossible. The apostle understood the importance of the healthful conditions of the body for the successful perfection of Christian character. He says, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." He mentions the fruit of the Spirit, among which is temperance. "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." ..... {CD 44.2}


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We should consider the words of the apostle Paul, in which he appeals to his brethren, by the mercies of God, to present their bodies "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." ... Sanctification is not merely a theory, an emotion, or a form of words, but a living, active principle, entering into the everyday life. It requires that our habits of eating, drinking, and dressing be such as to secure the preservation of physical, mental, and moral health, that we may present to the Lord our bodies--not an offering corrupted by wrong habits but--"a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." Romans 12:1.  {CH 67.1} 

Quote
Obedience to the law of God is sanctification. There are many who have erroneous ideas in regard to this work in the soul, but Jesus prayed that His disciples might be sanctified through the truth, and added, "Thy word is truth" (John 17:17). Sanctification is not an instantaneous but a progressive work, as obedience is continuous. Just as long as Satan urges his temptations upon us, the battle for self-conquest will have to be fought over and over again; but by obedience, the truth will sanctify the soul. Those who are loyal to the truth will, through the merits of Christ, overcome all weakness of character that has led them to be molded by every varying circumstance of life.  {FW 85.2}
 
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on July 07, 2014, 02:37:26 PM
We have not been talking about the most important reason for the health message. The mission and message of the Seventh-day Adventist church is the three angel's messages of Revelation 14 which includes the "everlasting gospel." The health message is to be the right arm of this work. The purpose of the 3AM and the everlasting gospel is to lead people to Christ. If that is not happening, our health work is just good for  PR, and TV documentaries and movies about Loma Linda etc. and helping sinners with their health problems. Or as they might say in Mississippi, "fattening frogs for snakes." If I'm not mistaken there are multiple EGW statements about this. Every member is to learn natural methods of treating physical problems and become knowledgeable and competent in teaching and providing safe, natural treatments to people who are suffering. This will open the minds and hearts of people to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe we need to get back into books such as "Ministry of Healing," and find ways to provide training in natural methods of healing such as hydrotherapy, etc. I believe EGW said that that approach would be the main thrust of our work as we near the end. In fact I think she said it would be one of the few ways we could work.

We have been given light that can produce healthy bodies and minds, but we should not become overly concerned when church members and others choose to not follow the light to the extent that we do. That should not be our focus.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on July 07, 2014, 03:47:33 PM
We have not been talking about the most important reason for the health message. The mission and message of the Seventh-day Adventist church is the three angel's messages of Revelation 14 which includes the "everlasting gospel." The health message is to be the right arm of this work. The purpose of the 3AM and the everlasting gospel is to lead people to Christ. If that is not happening, our health work is just good for  PR, and TV documentaries and movies about Loma Linda etc. and helping sinners with their health problems. Or as they might say in Mississippi, "fattening frogs for snakes." If I'm not mistaken there are multiple EGW statements about this. Every member is to learn natural methods of treating physical problems and become knowledgeable and competent in teaching and providing safe, natural treatments to people who are suffering. This will open the minds and hearts of people to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe we need to get back into books such as "Ministry of Healing," and find ways to provide training in natural methods of healing such as hydrotherapy, etc. I believe EGW said that that approach would be the main thrust of our work as we near the end. In fact I think she said it would be one of the few ways we could work.

We have been given light that can produce healthy bodies and minds, but we should not become overly concerned when church members and others choose to not follow the light to the extent that we do. That should not be our focus.

I think I mentioned it on another thread about eating....  can't mention it enough... needs to be on any thread where we talk about eating... and it's something we all have to do...eat.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: GraceVessel on July 07, 2014, 03:56:53 PM
Was thinking on the way home today from work.   I attended SMC (now Southern University) and worked at McKee Baking Company. 

It bothered me in college that I was working there.. kinda just hung around in my mind... being SDA at the time and wanting to go to college etc etc.

McKee makes $$$$$$ selling sugar.  Doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that the profits come from people who buy too much of the product. (at least statistically speaking).. and since the McKee's didn't know "who" the "who was" that was buying it... it wasn't there issue.

Always struck me kinda odd that MOH was in the library there and in a good number of dorm rooms and part of the class study... but nothing was said because the $$$ donations that came from the McKee's to support the school in a big way.  Not saying the McKee's were wrong per se... just thinking back over it 35 years ago... seems well... contrary.

I ate cookies out the wazoo when I worked there... ... after two weeks.. I didn't eat another cookie... haven't bought any of the cookies SINCE I worked there... cuz.. I can smell the place when I get close to the boxes in the grocery store :) ....

When I look back on it... I have to say... I met my wife there in 1980 on the peanut butter wafer line.  So I cant really say I don't like the McKee's bakery   :)

Anyway... enough of memory lane.

My question is.. how much does stuff like this... "water down" our ability to keep both arms of the TAM (health/message) legit.

A few non-sda's asked me that when I worked for McKee (back in the day)... I didn't have a valid response..

your thoughts?

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on July 07, 2014, 04:04:04 PM
Hi GV,
Many of us SDAs are in the wrong business where there are questionable practices that will be a stumbling block to others.
In the bible we are told that Jesus sent the legion into the pigs and they were wiped out.  There were farmers that knew this was an unclean animal but still had them as their livelihood.  I think Jesus was sending a message to them.
We know that sugar is bad for us and we don't have to eat them.   I know an sda that owns a coffee farm.  I know sdas that work in slaughtering houses but yet they do not eat meat.  Do we own stock in liquor or smokes?  Where do you draw the line?  I'm sure that there are enough choices out there to stay clear of anything that would cross up confusion along these lines.

I'm currently involved with a dorcas closet and we do not put out clothing with skulls or anything satanic on it or beer or liquor.... but then there are other things that are questionable...   If any one asks me, I usually say just because it was a question in their mind, that was enough for me to send it on to recycling.  We get some spanish shirts now that say things that are just terrible...some even lie as they put a nice translation in english under it ....  but I know just enough to seek out someone that knows more than I.  These shirts make nice one time use rags.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: restoretruth on July 07, 2014, 04:25:58 PM
We have not been talking about the most important reason for the health message. The mission and message of the Seventh-day Adventist church is the three angel's messages of Revelation 14 which includes the "everlasting gospel." The health message is to be the right arm of this work. The purpose of the 3AM and the everlasting gospel is to lead people to Christ. If that is not happening, our health work is just good for  PR, and TV documentaries and movies about Loma Linda etc. and helping sinners with their health problems. Or as they might say in Mississippi, "fattening frogs for snakes." If I'm not mistaken there are multiple EGW statements about this. Every member is to learn natural methods of treating physical problems and become knowledgeable and competent in teaching and providing safe, natural treatments to people who are suffering. This will open the minds and hearts of people to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe we need to get back into books such as "Ministry of Healing," and find ways to provide training in natural methods of healing such as hydrotherapy, etc. I believe EGW said that that approach would be the main thrust of our work as we near the end. In fact I think she said it would be one of the few ways we could work.

We have been given light that can produce healthy bodies and minds, but we should not become overly concerned when church members and others choose to not follow the light to the extent that we do. That should not be our focus.


 We totally agree Larry!

With what is happening on our southern border our country will never be the same again. With the influx of people across our borders, with what is happening in the Health Care system & the VA,  there will be a need for health care that won't even be available to many people because the system is overloaded!

We could see a renewed interest in Medical Missionary Work among our people  because of an overwhelming need & because of the Holy Spirit moving us with compassion for the same reasons that Christ was moved with compassion for the multitudes of people who had no Sheppard & were suffering sickness & disease.

But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Mat_9:36

And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick. Mat_14:14

We are in the "last days"! Sunday laws are already in Europe. It won't be long & we will see them. We must have Christ in control of our hearts & minds or we will be lost! There will little time to prepare when Sunday laws come!

We are looking for a better country! But, first, we have work to do, to be ready ourselves by abiding in Christ, &  to minister to both the physical & spiritual needs of others!
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on July 07, 2014, 11:04:57 PM
We have not been talking about the most important reason for the health message. The mission and message of the Seventh-day Adventist church is the three angel's messages of Revelation 14 which includes the "everlasting gospel." The health message is to be the right arm of this work. The purpose of the 3AM and the everlasting gospel is to lead people to Christ. If that is not happening, our health work is just good for  PR, and TV documentaries and movies about Loma Linda etc. and helping sinners with their health problems. Or as they might say in Mississippi, "fattening frogs for snakes." If I'm not mistaken there are multiple EGW statements about this. Every member is to learn natural methods of treating physical problems and become knowledgeable and competent in teaching and providing safe, natural treatments to people who are suffering. This will open the minds and hearts of people to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe we need to get back into books such as "Ministry of Healing," and find ways to provide training in natural methods of healing such as hydrotherapy, etc. I believe EGW said that that approach would be the main thrust of our work as we near the end. In fact I think she said it would be one of the few ways we could work.

We have been given light that can produce healthy bodies and minds, but we should not become overly concerned when church members and others choose to not follow the light to the extent that we do. That should not be our focus.

I think I mentioned it on another thread about eating....  can't mention it enough... needs to be on any thread where we talk about eating... and it's something we all have to do...eat.
Being preoccupied with eating is one of the problems of people with eating disorders such as anorexia bulemia etc. Of course we all have to eat, but I do not believe that when God gave us the health message he intended it to be the all absorbing topic of our in house discourse. It is to be the right arm of the gospel. It is to be a door opener for the entrance of the 3 angel's messages. Most Adventists who have been around for any length of time have a fairly good idea of how to eat sensibly and healthfully if they want to, and it is good to present the information in our local churches from time to time, but we ought not to have food fights with each other or expect that will benefit anyone. That will not influence anyone towards the gospel or the health message. I do not believe anyone is likely to change their lifestyle or eating habits because of being accusingly confronted about it. Especially by someone whom they have never seen and have no close personal relationship with.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: GraceVessel on July 08, 2014, 07:35:30 AM
Larry, your post is sound counsel.  I think in heaven the social component will bring us the most joy... being able to share and declare with others how much Jesus means to us.  This of course includes diet.

Just cuz it's a personal choice to me doesn't mean it not a personal choice to others.  I agree that sometimes we can overemphasize (and that's me included)... a given subject to pull it out of balance.

If Hitler was a vegan ... it doesn't make him a good person ... etc.  We should all strive for temperance in all parts of out life (including diet).  The causal stuff and assigning motives and blame to people (like what happened to my wife when she was passing.. "cooks my biscuits"...

One of the golden threads that flow through the bible and the SOP... is that how we consider and treat others and prepare hearts (as led by God) does more to win people than direct confrontation.

As I look back over my life with my failures, bad choices, and lessons learned.  I cherish mostly the rebuke and counsel that has instructed me and given me balance objectivity... each of those lessons included prayer and forethought,,, someone saw the big picture and context and was able to lay open what growth was needed in a way that disarmed my walls of indifference.

I think your post is the right tone and describes what is truly needed.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on July 08, 2014, 07:59:58 PM
Larry,
When you said 'preoccupied with eating' it reminded me of something...  ww is very popular but to always be counting points for everything that you eat seems to me a preoccupation with food that is not good... is there council on this?
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on July 08, 2014, 11:52:04 PM
Larry,
When you said 'preoccupied with eating' it reminded me of something...  ww is very popular but to always be counting points for everything that you eat seems to me a preoccupation with food that is not good... is there council on this?
Weight Watchers is a business that purports to help people solve their weight problems and I guess their clients, or should I say customers?, count calories in order to stay within certain limits. Thats what I understand but have no direct knowledge of it. My thought is that probably simply switching to vegan way of eating would solve many people's weight problems. That along with moderate exercise and following the other 8 laws of health would make a difference.

Not everyone has the necessary motivation and will to actually change anything about how they live and how they eat, even when their health and even their life is at stake.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: sdazeal on July 09, 2014, 06:32:14 AM
WW works with any kind of diet. Vegetarians/vegan can still count their calories if they are trying to lose weight. Frankly,  I know some obese vegans who have filled up on Oreos and soda ( sugar being the biggest cause of obesity). WW is mostly helpful when eating at restaurants, since in many cases the entire menu will be listed.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: ColporteurK on July 09, 2014, 07:21:19 AM
   White sugar ought to have a skull and cross bones on it. If a person is going to load on Little Debbies , soda pop, and candy bars they might as well go back to eating meat. So far I have not a seen a vegan do this but I'm sure there  are some that do. There is way more involved in being healthy than being vegan. The whole sugar thing and exercise are significant as well. Then there is the use of drugs to remedy the problems created by the first problem.
Title: Re: Eating and Salvation
Post by: newbie on July 09, 2014, 11:10:04 AM
   White sugar ought to have a skull and cross bones on it. If a person is going to load on Little Debbies , soda pop, and candy bars they might as well go back to eating meat. So far I have not a seen a vegan do this but I'm sure there  are some that do. There is way more involved in being healthy than being vegan. The whole sugar thing and exercise are significant as well. Then there is the use of drugs to remedy the problems created by the first problem.
I notice that my friendly house ants won't eat it... :-D