Revival Sermons

Theology => The Sabbath => Topic started by: ColporteurK on May 01, 2014, 11:14:04 AM

Title: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: ColporteurK on May 01, 2014, 11:14:04 AM

  I am inviting the thoughts and views of others  and have a question.

This next Sabbath the Conference president will be leading out in a church business meeting after fellowship dinner. One of the main topics if not thee main topic will be the salary of our new Bible worker. The reason for this is because it is convenient since the president will be here to ordain a new elder.

We have chosen not to intend the fellowship dinners beginning next Sabbath because one or two bring beef, all the rest bring dishes with cheese, butter, dairy, etc. accept for a couple of families who eat hardy but bring nothing. We have been contemplating working something else out for lunch and then returning for the meeting however if wages is the key topic we have concerns about attending at all. We really don't know what all will be discussed at the meeting other than the wages of the new Bible worker. We do not know if it will just be announced what will be paid or if  there will be a deliberation and vote on the subject. What would you do ?
Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: Ed Sutton on May 01, 2014, 11:55:54 AM
Try and get more information, upon the agenda of the meeting, once informed if voting, bring to church a vote written before Sabbath and with a trustworthy person leave the written proxy vote if the issues are worth voting on - on Sabbath, if you are not staying.

If not voting & not staying, you have already settled your response in the matter.

If you are staying and personally voting, you have settled your response in the matter.

Does this SDA history apply in this case ?

Quote
The word spoken to me by the angel of God was to observe and see that while worship was going on in the house of God on the Sabbath, and the Sabbath was being nominally observed by the people here; while the prayers were being offered to God for His blessing to rest upon the people, and while the minister was talking to the people, there was heard the sound of the hammer and anvil and chisel, and various sounds. Said the angel, "This is an offense to God. How can God regard Himself as honored by a people who profess to worship Him, and let His blessing rest upon the people, while these things are going on?" Well, now, I could not at the time understand what this meant; but since I have come right here upon the premises, I understand it. Here is a blacksmith right here upon the premises who carries his work on right while worship is going on here on the Sabbath day. And while these meetings have been going on I have heard the same sounds that the angel caused me to hear over in America. I have heard the sound of chisel and hammer while we have been worshiping God. And the angel said to me that God could not let His blessing rest upon a people who have so little respect for His Word. Again I was led into different places, and I saw accounts that were being settled up and business that was being done upon the Sabbath day because it was convenient for the people.  {10MR 89.2} 
Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: ColporteurK on May 01, 2014, 12:03:36 PM
I would say so. How would you proceed ?

I sent the quote to the elder, head elder, and conference president. I do not expect a response. Surely the rationalization will be that the quote is taken out of context and it was not talking about church matters such as paying for ministry but rather about driving nails and sawing wood. In other words the sentiment will be that there is church business and business business. Well, one could say then that building onto the church with hammers and nails is church business too then. I would think that they could leave finances out of the "business" meeting then and simply talk about the ministry of the Bible worker etc.. etc..
Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: Ed Sutton on May 01, 2014, 01:48:07 PM
( "not speaking thine own words" sabbath  ) =  68 hits

Quote
   God has given men six days wherein to labor, and He requires that their own work be done in the six working days. Acts of necessity and mercy are permitted on the Sabbath, the sick and suffering are at all times to be cared for; but unnecessary labor is to be strictly avoided. "Turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My holy day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable; and . . . honor Him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure." Isaiah 58:13. Nor does the prohibition end here. "Nor speaking thine own words," says the prophet. Those who discuss business matters or lay plans on the Sabbath are regarded by God as though engaged in the actual transaction of business. To keep the Sabbath holy, we should not even allow our minds to dwell upon things of a worldly character. And the commandment includes all within our gates. The inmates of the house are to lay aside their worldly business during the sacred hours. All should unite to honor God by willing service upon His holy day.  {PP 307.3}

Quote
When the Sabbath commences, we should place a guard upon ourselves, upon our acts and our words, lest we rob God by appropriating to our own use that time which is strictly the Lord's. We should not do ourselves, nor suffer our children to do, any manner of our own work for a livelihood, or anything which could have been done on the six working days. Friday is the day of preparation. Time can then be devoted to making the necessary preparation for the Sabbath and to thinking and conversing about it. Nothing which will in the sight of Heaven be regarded as a violation of the holy Sabbath should be left unsaid or undone, to be said or done upon the Sabbath. God requires not only that we refrain from physical labor upon the Sabbath, but that the mind be disciplined to dwell upon sacred themes. The fourth commandment is virtually transgressed by conversing upon worldly things or by engaging in light and trifling conversation. Talking upon anything or everything which may come into the mind is speaking our own words. Every deviation from right brings us into bondage and condemnation.  {2T 702.1} 

     Brother P, you should discipline yourself to discern the sacredness of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment and should labor to raise the standard in your family and wherever you have, by example, lowered it among God's people. You should counteract the influence you have cast in this respect, by changing your words and actions. You have frequently failed to "remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy;" you have often forgotten, and have spoken your own words upon God's sanctified day. You have been unguarded, and have upon the Sabbath joined with the unconsecrated in conversation upon the common topics of the day, such as gains and losses, stocks, crops, and provisions. In this your example injures your influence. You should reform.  {2T 703.1}
 
     Those who are not fully converted to the truth frequently let their minds run freely upon worldly business, and, although they may rest from physical toil upon the Sabbath, their tongues speak out what is in their minds; hence these words concerning cattle, crops, losses, and gains. All this is Sabbath breaking. If the mind is running upon worldly matters, the tongue will reveal it, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.  {2T 703.2} 

     The example of ministers especially should be circumspect in this respect. Upon the Sabbath they should conscientiously restrict themselves to conversation upon religious themes--to present truth, present duty, the Christian's hopes and fears, trials, conflicts, and afflictions; to overcoming at last, and the reward to be received.  {2T 703.3} 

     Ministers of Jesus should stand as reprovers to those who fail to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. They should kindly and solemnly reprove those who engage in worldly conversation upon the Sabbath and at the same time claim to be Sabbathkeepers. They should encourage devotion to God upon His holy day.  {2T 704.1} 

"sabbath*" = 147  Bible Texts ,  "seventh day" = 48   Bible Texts    +    4 T Chap. 22 - Sacredness of God's Commandments,   Reform in Sabbath Observance{6T 351.4 -368.3 }   - is helpful reading if looking for guiding principles. 

Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: Raven on May 01, 2014, 04:42:20 PM
My answer is simple, cp.  I would not attend because I believe it is inappropriate to hold church business meetings on Sabbath.  It would be one thing if they were getting together to plan an outreach activity for Sabbath, but salaries?

As for fellowship dinners I wouldn't let what others bring stop me from coming.  My wife always brings a lot of food and I can do quite nicely just eating what she makes.  :-D  If you wife makes the best vegan dishes in the county maybe people will stop eating that other junk.   At any rate, you'd be setting a good example for everyone else.

I'm not sure why we don't have that problem.  Our pastor is a vegan, but it hasn't always been that way.  I can't recall if any of our members have ever brought meat to a potluck.  Some bring food with dairy products, but there is always plenty of vegan food there.
Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: ColporteurK on May 01, 2014, 06:01:32 PM
Raven;

That's part of the problem. They do like our food and if we do not get in at the beginning of the line they often clean us out and we have little to eat. It takes a lot of food to feed 20-30 people. After driving 85 miles one way that gets expensive. I suppose if we were just to bring a big salad that would work. People do not eat much salad.
Every Sabbath there is a problem. Last Sabbath someone was reading from Loren Seibold, "their favorite author".  The Sabbath before there was rocky music. I guess we have to get thicker skin.
Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: Tammy on May 01, 2014, 06:59:10 PM
My answer is simple, cp.  I would not attend because I believe it is inappropriate to hold church business meetings on Sabbath. 

That was my thinking.  Like you said, they are just doing what is convenient.
Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: sdazeal on May 01, 2014, 10:33:00 PM
So then, since the can has been opened I will throw in collecting money, and counting it out, on Sabbath. The apostle Paul said "lay aside money at home on the first day of the week so that NO COLLECTIONS will be taken..."
 The 1st century church, like the Synagogues of then and today, used offering boxes that people could money in all week. Taking collections, like many other changes took place much later.

As for potluck, it is the best way there is to share the health message without preaching. Bringing healthy and delicious food has a wonderful effect on those who would eat better if they only knew how. Last week was Italian week. My daughter and I made vegan pizzas with cashew cheese, artichoke hearts, sun dried tomatoes, onions and bell peppers. Another person brought a Papa Murphy's veggie pizza loaded with cheese. Our pizzas were gone immediately and the cheesy one was still there at the end of the lunch. I basically [re]introduced cashew cheese to the congregation several months ago and since then there has been a little less dairy cheese and more people making "fakey cheese" ( what we call it at our house). We invest heavily in potluck dishes to show how flavorful vegan food can be.
Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: Raven on May 02, 2014, 03:45:27 PM
Paul was speaking to a particular situation.  They were collecting relief money for Christians in Judea who were in need.  He wanted it to be ready when he came.  Why he chose the first day of the week as the day for people to set aside their funds, I'm not sure.  But that was what they were to do at their homes.  He did not say how or when he would collect the money.  And, he did not say anything, pro or con, about putting tithes and offering in the offering plate on Sabbath.  I'm not sure how we would collect offering today if not on Sabbath.  Our churches are locked during the week, and the only other alternative would be to mail checks to the treasurer or set up a system to used credit or debit cards.  That would be very cumbersome.  I'm curious as to what Scriptural principle would prohibit collecting tithes and offerings on Sabbath.
Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: newbie on May 02, 2014, 04:13:14 PM
Paul was speaking to a particular situation.  They were collecting relief money for Christians in Judea who were in need.  He wanted it to be ready when he came.  Why he chose the first day of the week as the day for people to set aside their funds, I'm not sure.  But that was what they were to do at their homes.  He did not say how or when he would collect the money.  And, he did not say anything, pro or con, about putting tithes and offering in the offering plate on Sabbath.  I'm not sure how we would collect offering today if not on Sabbath.  Our churches are locked during the week, and the only other alternative would be to mail checks to the treasurer or set up a system to used credit or debit cards.  That would be very cumbersome.  I'm curious as to what Scriptural principle would prohibit collecting tithes and offerings on Sabbath.

this is what i've always believed... but there are many in the church that believe as Zeal has stated... there is one church I go to occasionally that does not do collections on Sabbath and they make no collections for children's story either....how do they survive?  They rent their church to another church on sunday.
My question is, since none of us meet on Sunday how would we ever make collections and how would the church survive?
Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: ColporteurK on May 02, 2014, 04:44:30 PM
 
    Since most do not live near the synagogue/church I don't think an offering box left there for deposits during the week would work very well. In our church most live from 20-85 miles from the church. The iron is hot at church when mission is being emphasized however I don't think we need to talk $$$ or count $$$. I personally do not see an offering in the plate on Sabbath as buying or selling.

I could be wrong but I thought that Paul spoke of collecting an offering (in general). Did they not give food, chickens, etc., as offerings as well ?  Was Paul against talking up an offering on Sabbath or was he being efficient and well ordered so people were not bagging potatoes, for instance to give as offerings ? If he was against giving offerings on Sabbath I do not think he would have taken or picked up an offering on Sabbath either. It is interesting that he asked them to do this on Sunday rather than Wednesday or Thursday. I wonder if sometimes Paul stopped by during the week in some instances and therefore he told them to get things in order next day after the Sabbath so whenever he might arrive they would have things ready. What do you think ?

Title: Re: Bussiness Meetings on Sabbath
Post by: ColporteurK on May 02, 2014, 05:32:47 PM
We are off topic a little but what do you think about this quote?

   " Not only does the Lord claim the tithe as his own, but he tells us how it should be reserved for him. He says, "Honor the Lord with thy substance, and with the first-fruits of all thine increase." This does not teach that we are to spend our means on ourselves, and bring to the Lord the remnant, even though it should be otherwise an honest tithe. Let God's portion be first set apart.  {SW, October 2, 1906 par. 7} 
     The directions given by the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul in regard to gifts, present a principle that applies also to tithing: "On the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him." Parents and children are here included. Not only the rich, but the poor, are addressed. "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart [through the candid consideration of God's prescribed plan], so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver." The gifts are to be made in consideration of the great goodness of God to us.  {SW, October 2, 1906 par. 8}
    And what more appropriate time could be chosen for setting aside the tithe and presenting our offerings to God? On the Sabbath we have thought upon his goodness. We have beheld his work in creation as an evidence of his power in redemption. Our hearts are filled with thankfulness for his great love. And now, before the toil of a week begins, we return to him his own, and with it an offering to testify our gratitude. Thus our practice will be a weekly sermon, declaring that God is the possessor of all our property, and that he has made us stewards to use it to his glory. Every acknowledgment of our obligation to God will strengthen the sense of obligation. Gratitude deepens as we give it expression, and the joy it brings is life to soul and body.  {SW, October 2, 1906 par. 9} 
     The duty and privilege of systematic giving to the cause of God is a matter that should by no means be neglected by ministers. God has called them to watch for souls as they that must give an account. He has commissioned them to bear his message to the churches. They should see that none are left in ignorance concerning this subject. They should seek to impress the people with a sense of their entire dependence upon God, and their accountability to him for all his benefits. "

What is this most "appropriate time" to set aside tithe and present offerings ? Is it on Sabbath, Sabbath evening after sunset, or on Sunday morning before work ? If this is after the Sabbath does setting it aside mean that it ought not be collected on Sabbath ? If it is to be set aside after the Sabbath it would seem to me that it is in harmony with what Paul said for it to be taken up or collected next Sabbath.