Revival Sermons

Lifestyle & Contemporary Issues => Issues in Contemporary Worship => Topic started by: Larry Lyons on April 13, 2014, 10:59:10 AM

Title: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 13, 2014, 10:59:10 AM
This is a rather long document that has been sent to me, but I think it is important for people to be aware of.

"The North American Division (NAD) has identified six building blocks as the focus of mission. ]
1. Transformational Evangelism.
2. Retention of Young Adults.
3. Women in Pastoral Ministry.
4. Education for everyone-Online.
5. Emerging Immigrant Populations.
6. Media.
The following information is an adaptation of Women in Pastoral Ministry, a publication from the NAD secretariat. The Women in Pastoral Ministry building block is based on a human resources platform. It is very specific-increase the number of female pastors in the North American Division. Of the approximately 4000 pastors throughout North America, only 107 pastors are women. Studies show that 50 percent of the current pastors will be eligible for retirement in the next ten years. The goal is to double the current number of female pastors in the next five years. Part of this would involve creating a more positive environment in the minds of SDA church members that God calls both men and women into his (sic) service for pastoral leadership. This will be accomplished through four focus activities:
Communication/Education.
1. Educate local churches of God's call to men and women.
2. Publish articles in union papers.
3. Create and distribute the theological support in layman's language.
4. Distribute the NAD Theology of Ordination Report throughout the division.
5. Create and distribute videos of member's responses to female pastoral leadership.
6. Develop a special edition of the Adventist Review to be mailed to every home.
7. Create an assessment tool to determine local church receptivity.

Recruitment:
1. Actively recruit females who have graduated from the Seminary but are working in other professions.
2. Actively recruit females on Adventist college and university campuses who sense God's call to ministry.
3. Compile and maintain a list of highly qualified females who are available for pastoral leadership.
4. create a website for women to register their interests and be identified.

Mentoring/Nurturing
1. Identify female students who sense God's calling.
2. Partner those identified with current female pastors.
3. Develop a curriculum that would train current female pastors as successful mentors.
4. Sponsor an annual conference for female pastors.
5. organize regional partnerships through teleconference and online communication.

Funding Support.
1. Create a funding formula to encourage the hiring of female pastors.
2. Structure the formula with participation from the division, union and local conference.
3. Promote the funding formula and its availability throughout the division.
4. Review the funding initiative after five years.

The appointment of Esther R. Knott as associate director of the NAD Ministerial Department and formerly associate pastor of Pioneer Memorial Church is in keeping with this initiative. Knott is based at the Adventist Theological Seminary on the campus of Andrews University. One of Knott's responsibilities is to function as an adviser for women clergy issues. In order to finish God's work, we need the women who are called of God to work alongside the men who are equally called. Join us as we provide a partnership to support females who feel called by the Lord from college level through seminary, leading to a full employment into the local conference....
 
Any comments about this plan?

Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: restoretruth on April 13, 2014, 01:48:08 PM
Larry,

Is the NAD implementing this immediately?   Are they not waiting for the GC?  Isn't this getting ahead of God's leading?  And couldn't this split the church?  What will happen if a Union, Regional or local Conference, or an individual Church agrees with the GC?  Will the NAD then say they are in rebellion against the NAD?  What if the GC holds to their current policy on W.O.?  Will the GC then say the NAD is in rebellion against the World Church?  Could Pastors start losing their credentials if they agree with one part of the Church, but disagree with another part. It seems to me this issue splits the Church & takes our focus away from the Three Angel's Messages, preparing for the Latter Rain & the finishing of God's work -- which is really our mission!
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: sdazeal on April 13, 2014, 01:52:58 PM
You will be assimilated- resistance is futile.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 13, 2014, 02:27:05 PM
Larry,

Is the NAD implementing this immediately?   Are they not waiting for the GC?  Isn't this getting ahead of God's leading?  And couldn't this split the church?  What will happen if a Union, Regional or local Conference, or an individual Church agrees with the GC?  Will the NAD then say they are in rebellion against the NAD?  What if the GC holds to their current policy on W.O.?  Will the GC then say the NAD is in rebellion against the World Church?  Could Pastors start losing their credentials if they agree with one part of the Church, but disagree with another part. It seems to me this issue splits the Church & takes our focus away from the Three Angel's Messages, preparing for the Latter Rain & the finishing of God's work -- which is really our mission!
Restoretruth, I think they are already doing some of it. A pastor I know on another forum who is savvy re church politics and tends to be very aware of the trends within the church said that a split may come very soon if something is not done. The NAD is legally required to operate according to the policies of the General Conference. Dan Jackson learned that the hard way soon after he became NAD president. He tipped his hand in favor of ordaining women in the NAD and was quickly informed that he was under the General Conference rules, policies and guidelines. He had to retract his statement. 

A pastor on that same forum who is on the GC ordination study committee said that regardless of what the NAD says about WO, the world church at the 2015 GC has the last word, and he is convinced that the last word will be Bible based.

Another experienced pastor believes that there will be a compromise in 2015 to avoid a split.
My thinking is that we are already in the shaking time and the an earthquake within the church is coming. We would do well to keep in mind that the "church will appear as about to fall but it will not fall." Perhaps someone could post the EGW statements about the shaking and its relationship to the loud cry of the three angels message. My understanding is that it is after the shaking that the work will go forward with great  power.

Zeal, that is exactly what they want us to believe. They are using the same organized comprehensive PR (propaganda) techniques that have been used for the last 2 or 3 decades by the homosexual movement to successfully further their agenda.

Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 13, 2014, 03:07:36 PM
This is a fork in the road a subtle suttle  shift from God's path at first, that widens rapidly.

Women were to be evangelists not pastors.  As medical missionary Bibleworker / evangelists-full time for the Lord paid from tithe in an inspiration - defined established position from God - they would work in a way men could not and do what men could not.

Satan fears that - but uses the Balaam / Bal-Peor approach to subvert to turn the truths of God and the narrow path of God into a lie.

In essence Satan is repeating how he diverted Eve - (in principle) - Don't worry just eat from this tree first it will give you more power and wisdom and spirituality and godlikeness .

We know how that went.    Too many girls and women are being trained unto absolute equality and total empowerment from childhood upwards - they are primed for the delusion.

In a short survey in 2000 - 80% of NAD Pastors had never personally brought an individual to Christ, they were religious administrators only. 
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 13, 2014, 03:57:01 PM
This is a fork in the road a subtle suttle  shift from God's path at first, that widens rapidly.

Women were to be evangelists not pastors.  As medical missionary Bibleworker / evangelists-full time for the Lord paid from tithe in an inspiration - defined established position from God - they would work in a way men could not and do what men could not.

Satan fears that - but uses the Balaam / Bal-Peor approach to subvert to turn the truths of God and the narrow path of God into a lie.

In essence Satan is repeating how he diverted Eve - (in principle) - Don't worry just eat from this tree first it will give you more power and wisdom and spirituality and godlikeness .

We know how that went.    Too many girls and women are being trained unto absolute equality and total empowerment from childhood upwards - they are primed for the delusion.

In a short survey in 2000 - 80% of NAD Pastors had never personally brought an individual to Christ, they were religious administrators only.
I agree Ed. I am especially disturbed by their plan to actively identify and recruit young women in college who may "feel" that they are called by God. Unless a young woman knows and believes the biblical requirements for spiritual leadership, they will be easily directed towards being pastors, even if that was not their original thought.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: sdazeal on April 13, 2014, 06:13:08 PM
I think one of the more disturbing, at least to me, statements in their little "mission plan" is the implication that Christ will not come unless we ordain women and make them pastors ( re: finish the work). Once again, red flags fly when I read something like that.

Yes, that modus operandus is nothing new and is simple brainwashing and manipulation. Once they make it common place to accept their view, then those who disagree will be vilified as heretics and "troublers of Israel".
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 13, 2014, 09:58:42 PM
I think one of the more disturbing, at least to me, statements in their little "mission plan" is the implication that Christ will not come unless we ordain women and make them pastors ( re: finish the work). Once again, red flags fly when I read something like that.

Yes, that modus operandus is nothing new and is simple brainwashing and manipulation. Once they make it common place to accept their view, then those who disagree will be vilified as heretics and "troublers of Israel".
That was exactly the strategy that the "elite homosexual establishment" planned and have had great success with according to Tammy Bruce, a former insider of that movement, who described in detail their plans to change society into an image of themselves. She also said that they are totally corrupt. Her books "The New Thought Police" and "The Death of Right and Wrong" are worth reading.

There are other similarities between that movement and the wo movement. The homosexual movement has a lot of support from many who tend to be liberal in politics and lifestyle, and the generation with the post modern mind set, and they use the pressure of political correctness to intimidate to further their agenda. I think that many Seventh-day Adventists support wo because they do not understand the biblical principles of spiritual leadership, and they may see it as a issue of fairness. Also those men and women who have been influenced by the feminist movement that arose in the culture a few decades ago and entered the church as well. Also I suspect that many families support wo who have family members who are female elders or in other leadership positions such as chaplains, pastors etc. I believe political correctness also plays a role of intimidation in the campaign to ordain women.

The above document is very much in line with a message that was sent to the North American churches in 1995 right after the vote by the General Conference in the Netherlands in 1995 against allowing a "variance" to the North American Division to give them permission to ordain women to the ministry. Alfred McClure, then president of the NAD made a video expressing his disappointment with the vote and outlined the plans to increase the role of women and bring them into pastoral ministry. I found an old copy of the video on a dusty shelf in our church. As I understand it, the world church at that session only voted against allowing the NAD to ordain women. They did not make a general statement for or against women's ordination. I think that fact is not understood by everyone. The 2015 vote will presumably settle the question biblically once and for all in a decisive manner, hopefully according to the Bible.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 13, 2014, 10:11:06 PM
I think one of the more disturbing, at least to me, statements in their little "mission plan" is the implication that Christ will not come unless we ordain women and make them pastors ( re: finish the work). Once again, red flags fly when I read something like that.

Zeal, I noticed that too. It is a trick used in debates to sucker the opponent into to accepting an unproven point that supports the opponent's argument. I believe the technical term for that is "begging the question."
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 14, 2014, 06:52:22 AM
In this case it is the "strawwoman" technique .

Women who were supposed to be medical missionary evangelists with inside tracks on working in homes where men can not, want a position John Harvey Kellogg - side tracked and gutted by taking it away from Christ's training to physically minister & the healing arts, then becoming through the training programs too often given, administrative in nature, instead of innately soulwinning .

In a short survey in 2000 - 80% of NAD Pastors had never personally brought an individual to Christ, they were religious administrators only - so women the evangelists that could reach the heart of the family at the fire side as men often can not do - want to be administrators with a pulpit.

I wish godfearing SDA pastors would fill these women in about the heart burdens and stresses of aggressive soul winning especially starting new churches in unentered communities with no church plant options. 

Would the women want such, or would they want paperwork and a monthly check ?

When persecution comes it will clear out all but the most committed from the kitchen, like a hungry cat let loose in a house with mice.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: sdazeal on April 14, 2014, 08:24:02 PM
Two monumental things happened:

1- Somebody first convinced people that "men-only" in pastoral leadership is somehow "unfair", that unless women are made Pastors and Elders then there is no equality.

2- Women were put in positions of pastors and elders even though they were not "ordained", but "commissioned". Simplistic semantics that demanded a permanent solution.

I must say that there are some very intellectually weak and blind leaders in our church if they could not see through those tricks. How could they POSSIBLY think that "commissioning" women as elders would not lead to a next step? That somehow the liberal progressives in the church would be satisfied and appeased?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Raven on April 15, 2014, 02:54:10 AM


I must say that there are some very intellectually weak and blind leaders in our church if they could not see through those tricks. How could they POSSIBLY think that "commissioning" women as elders would not lead to a next step? That somehow the liberal progressives in the church would be satisfied and appeased?

I'd say that it was inevitable.  Fixing it will take courage and fortitude.  And it will create even more division in the church.  But something has to give.  I believe it's all part of the shaking.  The lines are being drawn, and it is becoming clearer who is on which side.

It's very interesting and probably significant that those who are pushing the hardest for WO, are usually supporters of homosexuality, evolution, and "contemporary" worship services; while at the same time they don't believe in the sanctuary doctrine, and have a very low view of the SOP.  Curious indeed.

I remember an incident that occurred almost 15 years ago.  We were between pastors, and our first elder (a former pastor) was filling in until a permanent pastor could be found.  We were having some sort of meeting and the subject of choosing an female elder came up.  He spoke against it, and pointed out that in all the churches which had started ordaining women as elders and pastors, the next step was to ordain practicing homosexuals.  One woman got really offended by that.  But we now see many professed Adventists advocating for the acceptance of practicing homosexuals into the church.  And if they can become members in good standing, they can also be ordained.  And yet those advocating for this seem to be oblivious to the truth.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 15, 2014, 07:52:17 AM
I read a statement by an minister from a Sunday church who doesn't agree with women's ordination. He said that it is interesting that the denominations who moved away from their Protestant history and heritage, then down played sola scriptura, then adopted a higher critical approach to Scripture suddenly discovered that the true biblical role for women is spiritual headship equal with men. After milleniums of error on the part of Bible scholars, experts in Bible languages and others who just got it wrong, those denominations finally got it right.
(paraphrased from memory.)
He was being sarcastic, of course.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: restoretruth on April 15, 2014, 09:55:22 AM
I read a statement by an minister from a Sunday church who doesn't agree with women's ordination. He said that it is interesting that the denominations who moved away from their Protestant history and heritage, then down played sola scriptura, then adopted a higher critical approach to Scripture suddenly discovered that the true biblical role for women is spiritual headship equal with men. After milleniums of error on the part of Bible scholars, experts in Bible languages and others who just got it wrong, those denominations finally got it right.
(paraphrased from memory.)
He was being sarcastic, of course.

There seems to be a polarization in all of society as well as the religious world between liberal & conservative thought!  Also, less tolerance for opposing views!
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on April 15, 2014, 05:18:49 PM
I think one of the more disturbing, at least to me, statements in their little "mission plan" is the implication that Christ will not come unless we ordain women and make them pastors ( re: finish the work). Once again, red flags fly when I read something like that.


Dwight Nelson said exactly that.

This is simply a warm up for the Sunday law. It will be said that Christ will not come until everyone observes Sunday.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 15, 2014, 09:20:53 PM
Zeal, was he saying he was disturbed by it?

I would like to know what he has to say about the Project One gathering in Seattle. He was on the list of those registered to attend.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on April 16, 2014, 07:42:07 AM
Zeal, was he saying he was disturbed by it?

I would like to know what he has to say about the Project One gathering in Seattle. He was on the list of those registered to attend.

From Colporteur:zeal   :-D 

I don't know what he said about the One Project but I think given his comments on other things I could make a pretty accurate guess.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: sdazeal on April 16, 2014, 07:30:40 PM
Zeal, was he saying he was disturbed by it?

I would like to know what he has to say about the Project One gathering in Seattle. He was on the list of those registered to attend.

Really? Can you send me a link to the list? No, I was never intending to go. In fact, I only know about it because it was mentioned here. Maybe someone's idea of a joke at my old church?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on April 17, 2014, 06:04:14 AM

 Maybe I am missing something but I think Larry was only talking about Dwight Nelson ?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: V. Hahn on April 17, 2014, 07:01:32 AM
I listened to an interesting sermon by Eric Walsh (Director of the Health Department in Pasadena, CA) last night on Audioverse, called "Carried Away": https://www.audioverse.org/english/sermons/recordings/4347/carried-away.html (https://www.audioverse.org/english/sermons/recordings/4347/carried-away.html)

It's only 45 minutes long and well worth a listen.  He touches on aspects of the push for Women's Ordination and how it will affect church unity, the pride that seems to fuel it, what it will lead to, etc.  Very interesting!
Title: Re: NAD's Agnda to Establiseh Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 17, 2014, 10:38:48 PM
Quote
NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
It tells the tenor and nature of such work - political and spiritual corruption that motivates it, to go behind the back under cover of closed doors and push into operating policy - what actually needs world church vote to do.

A mark of narcissistic superiority devaluing the words of Scripture & SOP to nothing, and the voices and votes of the majority of Church  Membership to insignificance in the face of their lists to promote the mother goddess philosophy in Church policy and practice elevating women where God never put them and effectively barring their Scriptural credibility as evangelists with other church's Bible believers and the unchurched who see through the ruse.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: sdazeal on April 18, 2014, 07:03:43 AM
>>>>>Scriptural credibility as evangelists with other church's Bible believers and the unchurched who see through the ruse. <<<<<

Good point! I had not thought of that, but its true.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on April 18, 2014, 01:30:45 PM
This [WO] is such a diversion of what really needs to be going on in the church....
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on April 18, 2014, 02:35:08 PM
 
  Yup ! It a major time waster, resource waster, and diversion.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: sdazeal on April 18, 2014, 05:33:26 PM
Not to those who believe in it. To them, it is a MAJOR issue. Without it, they believe, we are out of step with society and keeping people away from the church and from Jesus.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 18, 2014, 10:23:41 PM
YouTube by Committee Member Pastor Stephen Bohr - Theology of Ordination Committee reair - history and theology

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMoTkIrtigU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMoTkIrtigU)
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: restoretruth on April 18, 2014, 10:35:00 PM

Here is an excerpt from an article this week in Advindicate. (all emphasis supplied)

THE INSERTION OF GENDER-INCLUSIVE LANGUAGE IN RECENT ELLEN WHITE COMPILATIONS

April 16, 2014 Kevin Paulson

Many in the church are not aware that the language of certain recent compilations from the writings of Ellen White has been altered so as to make it “gender-inclusive.” This lack of awareness—and lack of resulting controversy, thus far—might be ascribed to the fact that perhaps few who read these writings take the time to read the forewords, introductions, or other comments made in these books by the compilers. Whatever the reason, due to the use of a particular statement from one of these compilations by a leading Adventist scholar promoting the ordination of women to the gospel ministry, the church in general and the Ellen White Estate in particular will likely be forced to confront the problematic nature of this recent doctoring of inspired language...
 
"...In the recent summary by Dr. Angel Rodriguez, in which he responds to the principal arguments used by opponents of women’s ordination, the following statement from Christ Triumphant is quoted:

Those placed in positions of responsibility should be men and women who fear God, who realize that they are humans only, not God.  They should be people who will rule under God and for Him. Will they give expression to the will of God for His people? Do they allow selfishness to tarnish word and action? Do they, after obtaining the confidence of the people as leaders of wisdom who fear God and keep His commandments, belittle the exalted position that the people of God should occupy in these days of peril? Will they through self-confidence become false guideposts, pointing the way to friendship with the world instead of the way to heaven? (10).

Just prior to quoting this statement, Rodriguez writes:

Ellen White supports the idea of placing women in high administrative positions. After a discussion of the enthronement of David and the instructions God gave him, she applies the narrative to church leaders (11).

After quoting the above statement, he writes:

The statement is important in that it makes clear that a woman can be placed in positions of responsibility that would require them to ‘rule under God and with him’ and to teach God's will to the people (12).

Rodriguez obviously assumes that the gender-inclusive language found in this statement was in fact written by Ellen White herself. But if one consults the original statement, from the unpublished manuscript cited in this compilation, gender-inclusive language is entirely absent. Here is what the statement says in its original form:

Those placed in positions of responsibility should be men who fear God, who realize that they are men only, not God. They should be men who will rule under God and for Him. Will they give expression to the will of God for His people? Do they allow selfishness to tarnish word and action? Do they, after obtaining the confidence of the people as men of wisdom, who fear God and keep His commandments, belittle the exalted position that the people of God should occupy in these days of peril? Will they through self-confidence become false guide-posts, pointing the way to friendship with the world, instead of the way to heaven? (13).

Here we see very clear evidence that the contemporary altering of Ellen White's language so as to make it "gender-inclusive," is being urged in the present controversy as if it represents the thought of Ellen White, when the original wording is in fact gender-specific...."

[/b]
The complete article is @ < http://advindicate.com/articles/2014/4/16/the-insertion-of-gender-inclusive-language-in-recent-ellen-white-compilations >

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 19, 2014, 05:43:10 AM
Indeed an institution that had earned prior trust is changing signposts and road maps in violation of God's commands.

Here is a link where SDA Pastors speak about this, plus the total package of unlawful ordination, and the underlying system of telling God what to do, despite what God has caused to be written in Scripture and SOP.

http://ordinationtruth.com/ (http://ordinationtruth.com/)
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: sdazeal on April 19, 2014, 09:02:56 AM
Nothing new, RT. Nothing to see here...move along.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: restoretruth on April 19, 2014, 10:40:35 AM
Nothing new, RT. Nothing to see here...move along.

Zeal

It is apparent from the date of the article (4/16/14) & the SDA forum on which it was presented; as well as the discussion which followed, that there are other SDA scholars & Bible/SOP students who found the article timely, interesting & informative!  Did you actually read it?

I have always liked the devotional book Christ Triumphant (published in 1999), but have been troubled by the gender inclusive language. One thing I am not clear about is did the movement within the SDA church for W.O. predate the gender inclusive language used in Christ Triumphant ?  Do you know, & can you tell us in a “teachable” way? (Without the ”zealness”) :-)

I am disappointed that  Angel Rodriguez would use the changed wording in CTr  as evidence for W.O.

The personal correspondence between Kevin Paulson & Kenneth Wood RE the reasons for gender inclusive language, I found to be interesting & others might as well!
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: sdazeal on April 19, 2014, 04:00:25 PM
What I meant was that there is nothing new about "helpful editing" ( to use the EGW Estate's words) to Ellen White's writings to make them appear to support currently held views. Of course, people like us talking about it is seen as worse than actually doing it. The "helpful editing" of Ellen White's writings is something we are supposed to keep secret, lest people lose confidence in those writings. That is why I said, "nothing to see here, move along"....

As was shown, the "helpful editing" of Sr White's quote had the direct effect of changing the meaning of the comment, which of course Angel Rodriguez took advantage of.

Got honesty, anyone?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 19, 2014, 09:33:09 PM
Sunday May 18 I was a delegate from my local church to the Northern California Conference constituency meeting
Most of the morning was taken up by formally voting in the candidates for each office of the conference administration. As is the usual practice, the candidates had been earlier selected by a nominating committee. Every candidate was currently holding the office, and was re-elected by very large margins.

The next item on the agenda was a proposal from the administration to change the frequency of constituency meetings from every two years as is now the practice, to every 5 years starting in 2014. The second person in the debate to speak was Doug Batchelor who was an ex-oficio delegate from the Granite Harbor Church. (His new pastorate) He warned the group that in 2015 there would be a very important General Conference Session and there would very likely be significant issues for the conference to deal with by the constituency. If this proposal is voted in, there would not be another constituency meeting until 2019. A conference official stated that they would have frequent Town Hall meetings all around the conference instead. (Of course, town meetings have no authority at all!!) In order for this to pass, it required a two thirds majority. It failed. The results were close to even for and against.

Incidentally, voting was done by a credit card size electronic device, supplied to each delegate, which required merely pushing a button to register a yes or no vote. 20 seconds were allowed for the vote. The result was shown by a graph and numbers on the large screen above the platform. That part was great.

There were 3 proposals that had been placed on the agenda for discussion by a group of local churches: women's ordination, homosexuality, and evolution. Before any discussion started, a motion was made to refer these items to the executive committee rather than discuss them in the current meeting. There was very pointed statements made by some during the debate. It was pointed out by one delegate that this was an attempt to subvert the legal process that had been done  bring these issues before the constituents. It was finally brought to a vote, which only required a 2/3 majority to pass and it barely passed.

It was time for lunch and there had been 2 hours allocated for open discussion. The chair was asked if discussion of the 3 agenda items would be allowed. The chair (Elder Pederson, conference president) after consultation with the official parliamentarian answered that they could be discussed in the open discussion that would take place after lunch. Someone immediately mace a motion that the meeting be adjourned. Elder Pederson said that motions to adjourn take precedence over every thing else and a vote to adjourn would end the constituency meeting and everyone could go home. This was voted down.

During the discussion after lunch the proposals were read and some very direct comments were made by speakers. It was made clear that the proposed resolutions state that the conference must be in compliance
with the policies of the general conference. It was stated that because of the fact that they have been ordaining women pastors since 2012, the conference is not only in violation of the general conference policy, but their own official policy as well. Needless to say, there were no happy faces on the platform.

The proposal on evolution was read and a very eloquent and emphatic statement was made concerning the teaching of evolution in Adventist schools. The speaker did not mince words when pointing out the danger and the damage this can do to students. Elder Pederson called the education secretary to the podium to speak to that. He apparently took the previous statement very personally and displayed a bit of anger in his response. He basically defended what is being taught in the schools on the basis that students need to know these things because they will need to know what it is about etc. etc. etc.

I'm glad I got to witness this. Was anyone form this forum there? I only saw one person I knew from another forum.

Each delegate received a little gift when we turned in our voting devices. The gift? A little book  titled "Is Jesus Enough?" by NAD president Dan Jackson, NAD president.  How symbolic of the meeting. Was this deliberate, or are they clueless?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on May 20, 2014, 06:13:56 AM
Once they all vote and carry out their votes ( probably post 2015) that some time after God will vote.  He does not depend on Roberts Rules etal

ask anyone from Mayflower or Vilonia Arkansas .
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on May 20, 2014, 09:21:42 AM
Sunday May 18 I was a delegate from my local church to the Northern California Conference constituency meeting
Most of the morning was taken up by formally voting in the candidates for each office of the conference administration. As is the usual practice, the candidates had been earlier selected by a nominating committee. Every candidate was currently holding the office, and was re-elected by very large margins.

The next item on the agenda was a proposal from the administration to change the frequency of constituency meetings from every two years as is now the practice, to every 5 years starting in 2014. The second person in the debate to speak was Doug Batchelor who was an ex-oficio delegate from the Granite Harbor Church. (His new pastorate) He warned the group that in 2015 there would be a very important General Conference Session and there would very likely be significant issues for the conference to deal with by the constituency. If this proposal is voted in, there would not be another constituency meeting until 2019. A conference official stated that they would have frequent Town Hall meetings all around the conference instead. (Of course, town meetings have no authority at all!!) In order for this to pass, it required a two thirds majority. It failed. The results were close to even for and against.

Incidentally, voting was done by a credit card size electronic device, supplied to each delegate, which required merely pushing a button to register a yes or no vote. 20 seconds were allowed for the vote. The result was shown by a graph and numbers on the large screen above the platform. That part was great.

There were 3 proposals that had been placed on the agenda for discussion by a group of local churches: women's ordination, homosexuality, and evolution. Before any discussion started, a motion was made to refer these items to the executive committee rather than discuss them in the current meeting. There was very pointed statements made by some during the debate. It was pointed out by one delegate that this was an attempt to subvert the legal process that had been done  bring these issues before the constituents. It was finally brought to a vote, which only required a 2/3 majority to pass and it barely passed.

It was time for lunch and there had been 2 hours allocated for open discussion. The chair was asked if discussion of the 3 agenda items would be allowed. The chair (Elder Pederson, conference president) after consultation with the official parliamentarian answered that they could be discussed in the open discussion that would take place after lunch. Someone immediately mace a motion that the meeting be adjourned. Elder Pederson said that motions to adjourn take precedence over every thing else and a vote to adjourn would end the constituency meeting and everyone could go home. This was voted down.

During the discussion after lunch the proposals were read and some very direct comments were made by speakers. It was made clear that the proposed resolutions state that the conference must be in compliance
with the policies of the general conference. It was stated that because of the fact that they have been ordaining women pastors since 2012, the conference is not only in violation of the general conference policy, but their own official policy as well. Needless to say, there were no happy faces on the platform.

The proposal on evolution was read and a very eloquent and emphatic statement was made concerning the teaching of evolution in Adventist schools. The speaker did not mince words when pointing out the danger and the damage this can do to students. Elder Pederson called the education secretary to the podium to speak to that. He apparently took the previous statement very personally and displayed a bit of anger in his response. He basically defended what is being taught in the schools on the basis that students need to know these things because they will need to know what it is about etc. etc. etc.

I'm glad I got to witness this. Was anyone form this forum there? I only saw one person I knew from another forum.

Each delegate received a little gift when we turned in our voting devices. The gift? A little book  titled "Is Jesus Enough?" by NAD president Dan Jackson, NAD president.  How symbolic of the meeting. Was this deliberate, or are they clueless?
thanks Larry... our meeting is coming up very soon
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 20, 2014, 10:21:42 AM
If passed, the move to extend the length of time in office for conference leadership from 2 years to 5 years without the necessity of being re-elected would guarantee their job security and the continuing of their un-biblical agenda to place as many women as possible as pastors and other positions of headship in the church. Keep in mind that the Northern California Conference along with the Pacific Union Conference is in insubordination if not open rebellion to the world church. The NAD leadership is in full sympathy with this and even made a proposal to officially change the accepted method of Bible interpretation to facilitate their effort to establish women's ordination to pastoral headship for which there is no biblical support. 

#2 there was an attempt to prevent the discussion of women's ordination, homosexuality and the teaching of evolution which had been legally and properly placed on the agenda by "several" local churches. These are concerns of many local churches which are having to deal with these issues. The motion to refer to the executive committee was made immediately form the floor before any discussion could take place. Then when it was established that these agenda items could be discussed during a two hour open discussion time the motion to adjourn was made which would have stopped the meeting right then and there would have been no further discussion of anything.

We need to urge every member of our churches to educate themselves on these issues as well as the emergent church, The One Project, as an example of emergent church, spiritual formation and the biblical method of interpreting scripture as used by the Reformers and by the SDA pioneers. The church is under attack and I'm afraid that a majority of the members are woefully unprepared to deal with these things.

Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on May 20, 2014, 07:02:48 PM

   5. Create and distribute videos of member's responses to female pastoral leadership.



    Does that mean that they will create and distribute videos of member's responses who oppose WO ?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 20, 2014, 08:08:50 PM
I wasn't aware that anything was being filmed or recorded. Those meetings should be televised so church members could actually see their leaders in action.

Incidentally, when the South Eastern California conference was planning to elect a woman as conference president, Ted Wilson urged them not to do this and warned that she would not be recognized, would have no vote as a conference president. Of course they elected her anyway. Not long ago it it was apparently noticed that in the Seventh-day Adventist year book the South Eastern California conference is listed as having no president. A week or two ago I read that Ricardo Graham hand delivered a message to Elder Wilson asking him to tell the Archives department who prepared the year book to make a correction showing that they do have a president. Such aggressive arrogance!

I keep hearing that there will be a fierce attempt to unseat Ted Wilson at the General Conference session in 2015. We need to pray that it does not happen. I believe that would be a disaster.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on May 21, 2014, 04:46:22 PM

 I didn't take point #5 to mean that this had anything to do with the meetings but rather productions in general of laity showing support of WO.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 21, 2014, 09:17:54 PM

   5. Create and distribute videos of member's responses to female pastoral leadership.



    Does that mean that they will create and distribute videos of member's responses who oppose WO ?
I have seen many articles in the Review, and the Pacific Union Recorder that directly and subtly support women in pastoral leadership. I have never seen even one article in either of those journals giving the apposing view point.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on May 22, 2014, 06:25:40 AM

 Yes,  #5 as worded gives impression that there will be responses from members on both sides of the issue.

They should have worded it as follows:  # 5. Create and distribute videos of member's responses to female pastoral leadership who support women's ordination.


As stated it is by implication misleading and untruthful unless we see some change where they create videos  which include responses of those against WO. We already know that this is not going to happen.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: GraceVessel on May 22, 2014, 06:26:37 PM
Just throwing my .02 in here... but even tho I don't support women's ordination... what about the swallow the camel analogy?  I mean... the non-hetero and liberal agenda is to stretch SDA doctrinal uniqueness to nominality?  (spelling?). In the grand scheme of things... the secular view in our culture (NAD) is total women/men equality.  So why do we go out of our way to "accentuate the negative parts of Women's ordination"...  it's kinda like getting mad at the horse cuz it's left the barn?

... stand there... look at the hay and chat?

What's the plan (even within SDA culture) to put a positive spin on this (hidden agenda) ... from a legal and procedural perspective.. why aren't we dealing with the non-hetero and other liberal issues that are behind Women pastoral equality in the culture?   

Or am I missing something...   is it preferable for me for us to have women pastors (no)... but it's MORE non-palatable to have the other stuff in whatever fellowship I choose to attend in the future (assuming I attend regularly)?

Other denom's watch how SDA leadership handles stuff like this... if we are gonna go down fighting.. should we really be majoring on the minors?

just doesn't make sense...

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on May 22, 2014, 06:47:30 PM

 I think the difference Grace is that some do not view WO as a minor thing. True, it is a symptom of a bigger problem. However, that could be said of every symptom of a bigger problem. Do we then just speak repeatedly that we need to be converted and surrender our hearts ?  If a parent has a confused or a rebellious child shall the parent not discuss with the child, the improper use of the ipad, or how they speak to others disrespectfully, or ________ ?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on May 22, 2014, 06:49:25 PM
What I meant was that there is nothing new about "helpful editing" ( to use the EGW Estate's words) to Ellen White's writings to make them appear to support currently held views. Of course, people like us talking about it is seen as worse than actually doing it. The "helpful editing" of Ellen White's writings is something we are supposed to keep secret, lest people lose confidence in those writings. That is why I said, "nothing to see here, move along"....

As was shown, the "helpful editing" of Sr White's quote had the direct effect of changing the meaning of the comment, which of course Angel Rodriguez took advantage of.

Got honesty, anyone?

They have been doing that brother with these new Bibles for years.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on May 22, 2014, 07:43:28 PM
What I meant was that there is nothing new about "helpful editing" ( to use the EGW Estate's words) to Ellen White's writings to make them appear to support currently held views. Of course, people like us talking about it is seen as worse than actually doing it. The "helpful editing" of Ellen White's writings is something we are supposed to keep secret, lest people lose confidence in those writings. That is why I said, "nothing to see here, move along"....

As was shown, the "helpful editing" of Sr White's quote had the direct effect of changing the meaning of the comment, which of course Angel Rodriguez took advantage of.

Got honesty, anyone?
sad but true....
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on May 28, 2014, 10:31:58 PM
RE changing EGW writings, a Jewish Rabbi - can see things in her writings we non jews  overlook and do not realize are there.

So to keep those multiple level messages alive for deeper readers to discover and be attracted to we need to leave EGW Books - as EGW Books as she wrote them, not REWRITTEN EGW Books.  We often do not see what we are overlooking, but others who are willing to be lead are lead to see.

http://www.sdadefend.com/Believe-Prophet/ElfredLee.pdf (http://www.sdadefend.com/Believe-Prophet/ElfredLee.pdf)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtZ1DKWXcbs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtZ1DKWXcbs)

*****************************

Closer back to topic > WO - dealing with it is not finishing the work - if the work = evangelism only.

But if the work is to imitate Christ utterly and totally - letting Him plan for us, as Father God planed for Him day by day, then defending Christ's teachings and honour, in this and other matters in the Church, is imitating how Christ defended Father God's teachings and honour in God's House back then.

Call on Christ to lead and instruct in dealing with the WO controversy, just as He did during the storms upon the sea of Galilee each time.

http://new.livestream.com/kytnsda/events/3040392 (http://new.livestream.com/kytnsda/events/3040392)
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: sdazeal on May 31, 2014, 05:56:45 PM
You are so right, Ed!  In my humble opinion, it is the height of arrogance to assume you knew everything that was meant or implied by an author to the point of being able to rephrase their words to make them illustrate your own understanding of them. That is why our Jewish friends do not believe in "translations" of the Torah, but call any translation "an interpretation". Understanding in as close to possible the original words allows God to illuminate you with multiple levels of meaning or subtleties that God intended on being there. This is very true with Ellen White. She chose her words very carefully, which ones she used and which she did NOT use,  to reflect exactly what God wanted her to testify to the church...and even corrected her "first draft" when necessary in order to convey the precise meaning of the prophetic word. Most of her writings are very straightforward in their meaning, but there is always "buried treasure" in any inspired testimony that will not contradict what God has revealed prior.

What God did not say is just as important as what God did say! And we need to be acquainted with both!
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on May 31, 2014, 06:13:33 PM
 While translating the Bible from Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic it was necessary to make interpretive calls. I believe a great deal of liberty has been taken with new translations (including NKJV) that ought not have been done. At a time when it is nearly as it was in the days of Noah, people have seen fit to improve the KJV because we are not smart enough to understand that "thee" and "thou" means "you."  While it may  be argued that the KJV is not perfect and can be improved upon much of the depth and richness has been lost not to mention much  subtle undermining of the divinity of Christ through interpretation by Wesscott, Hort and others. They absolutely despised the KJV and for good reason, from their perspective.  I am a little off topic but see a degree of parallelism here.

How long before the NAD  starts cutting and pasting  tweaking and twisting the Bible and the SOP to excuse  homosexuality  and then Sunday observance ?  Already we have youth leaders softening the stance on homosexuality by saying that sodomy is not homosexuality and it was not this that brought fire and brimstone down on Sodom but rather the fullness of bread and ease. While fullness of bread and ease led to sin in Sodom,  homosexuality  was a key sin involved. They claim that it was abuse when the men tried to rape the angels and not homosexuality by two consenting adults that was the sin. Sorry, but that's fudging a great deal ! Of course the youth leader and his wife that made these claims also said that if he were served beer and bacon by a host he would partake in order to be a good witness.  :roll: They also said that Jesus compromised with sin by dying on the cross. Even at best, this is dangerous theology. To confuse the principles of "sacrifice" with "compromise" is very much babylon.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 01, 2014, 12:48:23 AM
Quote
They also said that Jesus compromised with sin by dying on the cross.

Scripture does not show any compromise with sin on Calvary.  That man who ever he is better start using KJV instead of whatever he now reads.

Hebrews 2:
9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 ¶  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11  For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12  Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13  And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 ¶  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15  And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16  For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17  Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Satan is so desperate he is saying that what conquered him and signed his death warrant in Heaven, has complicity with him and his evils on earth.  What faulty reasoning. Satan's desperate lie, which he personally knows is phoney; otherwise his time would not be short.

Satan's increasing anger proves that Satan knows he is rapidly running out of time.

Revelation 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on August 18, 2014, 11:18:19 AM
WO is almost like Eve reaching for that apple again....
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 18, 2014, 04:49:03 PM
I don't recall where I saw this, and I dont know if its true, but I read that the Vatican now owns the publishing rights for a number of the new translations including the NKJV.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on August 18, 2014, 06:48:16 PM
I don't recall where I saw this, and I dont know if its true, but I read that the Vatican now owns the publishing rights for a number of the new translations including the NKJV.
this would not surprise me much...
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on August 18, 2014, 08:00:28 PM

 Have you seen the new book out on the NKJV ? It is about the size of a Happiness Digest. I knew there was some error in the NKJV but had no idea there was that much. It actually has more in common with the Vaticanus than it does the Textus Receptus. So, it ought not seem strange that the Vatican owns the rights to it. It is another of their translations. There is enough truth in most new translations but there is plenty of error as well.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 19, 2014, 08:58:32 AM
The title "New King James" gives the impression that it is simply the same as the old King James but in modern English.  Many Adventist pastors use it. I rarely bother with any version except the King James. As for the rest, if I had to choose, it would probably be the NASB. (Not that anyone asked).  :-D
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on August 19, 2014, 12:02:47 PM

 Have you seen the new book out on the NKJV ? It is about the size of a Happiness Digest. I knew there was some error in the NKJV but had no idea there was that much. It actually has more in common with the Vaticanus than it does the Textus Receptus. So, it ought not seem strange that the Vatican owns the rights to it. It is another of their translations. There is enough truth in most new translations but there is plenty of error as well.
do you have a link for it?  I'd like to see it.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on August 19, 2014, 08:49:53 PM

 Have you seen the new book out on the NKJV ? It is about the size of a Happiness Digest. I knew there was some error in the NKJV but had no idea there was that much. It actually has more in common with the Vaticanus than it does the Textus Receptus. So, it ought not seem strange that the Vatican owns the rights to it. It is another of their translations. There is enough truth in most new translations but there is plenty of error as well.
do you have a link for it?  I'd like to see it.

Ah, not a link but I think I have a copy or two of the book around here somewhere. I'll see if I can locate it tomorrow and post whatever info is in the book.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on August 21, 2014, 11:03:37 AM

 Have you seen the new book out on the NKJV ? It is about the size of a Happiness Digest. I knew there was some error in the NKJV but had no idea there was that much. It actually has more in common with the Vaticanus than it does the Textus Receptus. So, it ought not seem strange that the Vatican owns the rights to it. It is another of their translations. There is enough truth in most new translations but there is plenty of error as well.
do you have a link for it?  I'd like to see it.

Ah, not a link but I think I have a copy or two of the book around here somewhere. I'll see if I can locate it tomorrow and post whatever info is in the book.

oh I would so appreciate this....when you get the time
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on August 21, 2014, 12:59:44 PM
Have been so busy. Looked briefly and could not find the books. I know they are around. Will look again when I can.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 21, 2014, 02:52:32 PM
I found 8 possible links from a larger group of links, if you don't find the book or link I can PM the links and tell me if any link is the one you are looking for.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on August 27, 2014, 10:13:59 AM
Have been so busy. Looked briefly and could not find the books. I know they are around. Will look again when I can.

Newbie;

The book is entitled What's New In the New King James Version ?

written by Max Klein

mklein60@hotmail.com

It is a 40 page booklet about the size  of a Happiness Digest. I have not had time to really dig into it.

One example of a  change is in Revelation 12:17. "Remnant" is changed to "offspring." At first glance one might think, "isn't remnant and offspring the same thing ? Not necessarily. Someone's offspring after 6000 years may not be an exact remnant. While one could come to that conclusion one could also come to a different conclusion. Offspring tends to carry a weaker, less singular meaning. Remnant is "a piece of" while "offspring" is "a creation of." Samuel was a faithful man of God and yet his offspring was not up to that standard.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on August 27, 2014, 10:40:43 AM
 Matthew 7:14  "Narrow is the way" has been changed to "difficult is the way"

Does "narrow" and "difficult" necessarily mean the same thing. One could conceive that there is a wide path to heaven and many different roads and yet they are all "difficult"  for whatever reason.

"Narrow" does not necessarily mean "difficult" and "difficult" does not necessarily mean "narrow." "Narrow" just means precise and close. While the two could be taken to mean the same thing they could also have very different meanings. My garden rows are narrow. When the crop first comes up however, it is not "difficult" to walk down the narrow way between the rows. If my garden was a bed of huge clumps covered with ice it may be "difficult" to walk across it but at 35 feet wide it is not "narrow."

Question : Why is "narrow" such a "difficult" word that it needed to be changed ?

While these changes may not any one be earth shaking they tend to water down the meaning and open doors for other meanings.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on August 27, 2014, 10:56:20 AM
  My favorite verses  in the Bible are I Thessalonians 4:16-18

In the NKJV "the voice of the archangel"  is changed to " the voice of an archangel."

Question:  Is there a difference between "the" meaning thee archangel and "the voice of "an" archangel." 

One could conclude that the Lord will descend with a shout, and with the voice of "an" archangel (Gabriel). Since Lucifer was thee number #1 created angel/ archangel (in that realm) and since some say  that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, some could conclude that God will use Lucifer to raise the dead.  While that is really reaching stranger doctrines abound.

"The" singles out one particular Angel while with "an" God could be using the "voice" of any angel to  accompany His shout. Straining gnats ?

What if for instance in verse 17 " to meet the  Lord in the air" it was changed to " to meet a Lord in the air." Would that matter ? " A" Lord could be Jesus or   _______ or _______.

While that change was not made it would be similar to the change made in the NKJV in verse 16.

Anyway, I've hijacked the thread. Perhaps we could move this or better yet a moderator.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on August 27, 2014, 05:33:01 PM
agree that the little word change makes a whole lot of difference...
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on September 30, 2014, 06:58:25 AM

 We have talked about "Emergent theology."   It  seems that the church has also fallen prey to "emergency" theology.  Like King Saul instead of patiently waiting on the Lord to bring revival some of leadership is trying to offer their own sacrifices by reinventing the wheel. The problem is that the wheel they are advocating is square.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 02, 2014, 01:58:22 PM
(1) And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name (Isaiah 4:1).

Couldn't this be interpreted in this way:? "And in that day seven women" local churches, conferences, union conferences and divisions) "shall take hold of one man" (The SDA General Conference World Church Organization), "saying We will eat our own bread" (Use our own methods of interpreting the Bible) "and wear our own apparel" (Cover ourselves with our own righteousness) "only let us be called by thy name" (only let us continue to remain in the church and be called Seventh-day Adventists).

In prophecy, a woman represents a church, either good or bad according to her raiment and other characteristics. Bread represents the Bible-the Word of God. Apparel represents Christ's wedding garment, which is His righteousness, or ones own filthy rags.

The whole passage from Isa 3:12-4:1 seems to fit with the current situation in the church in regards to women's ordination as well as other issues.

Is this too harsh or extreme?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on October 03, 2014, 09:43:33 AM
(1) And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel, only let us be called by thy name (Isaiah 4:1).

Couldn't this be interpreted in this way:? "And in that day seven women" local churches, conferences, union conferences and divisions) "shall take hold of one man" (The SDA General Conference World Church Organization), "saying We will eat our own bread" (Use our own methods of interpreting the Bible) "and wear our own apparel" (Cover ourselves with our own righteousness) "only let us be called by thy name" (only let us continue to remain in the church and be called Seventh-day Adventists).

In prophecy, a woman represents a church, either good or bad according to her raiment and other characteristics. Bread represents the Bible-the Word of God. Apparel represents Christ's wedding garment, which is His righteousness, or ones own filthy rags.

The whole passage from Isa 3:12-4:1 seems to fit with the current situation in the church in regards to women's ordination as well as other issues.

Is this too harsh or extreme?
no, I don't think it is extreme...seems to fit like a glove
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on March 26, 2015, 11:08:52 AM
We have been told by three people in the church in the last week that the NAD is sending all the NAD pastors  to the ministerial meetings in Austin, TX just before GC (with your tithe dollars). It ends the day before GC starts.  One of those people is a pastor and another that told us such is a conference paid Bible worker. He as well, is being funded to go to GC.  This is not mandatory but simply encouraged and funded. 

Knowing the past and current actions of the NAD it is not hard to tell that this will be used as a pep meeting to rally the pastors to implement WO when they get back home, irrespective of the vote.

The "Called" is the title of the meetings and Esther Knott is a key note speaker. The handwriting is on the wall. No surprise.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Tammy on March 26, 2015, 03:23:41 PM
I still don't get it.  It seems to me that the pastor of a church is basically speaking every week to a group of people who already believe our message.  And then much of their time is spent dealing with people problems and/or just taking care of the flock--funerals, visiting the sick, etc.

So if a woman truly has a desire to work for God and to be a part of spreading the gospel, it doesn't seem like a pastor of a church would be the best opportunity for that, as far as to unbelievers.  Not sure what it would be, but I sure don't see that women are being stifled from working for God by not being a pastor.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on March 26, 2015, 04:53:23 PM
yes, Tammy...there are many things that women CAN do to further the message...my general feeling is that if you really knew what pastors had to do and put up with, why would anyone really want to be a pastor?  God bless those men that have the stamina to do so!!

as far as the NAD...seems like they are trying to stack the deck to push their own agenda
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: restoretruth on March 26, 2015, 06:11:55 PM
I still don't get it.  It seems to me that the pastor of a church is basically speaking every week to a group of people who already believe our message.  And then much of their time is spent dealing with people problems and/or just taking care of the flock--funerals, visiting the sick, etc.

So if a woman truly has a desire to work for God and to be a part of spreading the gospel, it doesn't seem like a pastor of a church would be the best opportunity for that, as far as to unbelievers.  Not sure what it would be, but I sure don't see that women are being stifled from working for God by not being a pastor.

We agree! The choice to be a Bible worker would probably result in as many baptisms as being a pastor! However, taking care of the flock, visiting the sick, etc are important christian duties also, much of which can be done by caring church members!
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Tammy on March 26, 2015, 06:30:31 PM
However, taking care of the flock, visiting the sick, etc are important christian duties also, much of which can be done by caring church members!

There is absolutely no end to the work a woman can do just simply visiting the elderly and/or lonely people or ones who live alone, help with food, etc.  But then that's not "spreading the message," and these women feel that they are being called to be a pastor.  And most of them are probably not "in rebellion."  So what are they?  Caught up in culture?  Misguided?  What?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: restoretruth on March 26, 2015, 08:16:15 PM
However, taking care of the flock, visiting the sick, etc are important christian duties also, much of which can be done by caring church members!

There is absolutely no end to the work a woman can do just simply visiting the elderly and/or lonely people or ones who live alone, help with food, etc.  But then that's not "spreading the message," and these women feel that they are being called to be a pastor.  And most of them are probably not "in rebellion."  So what are they?  Caught up in culture?  Misguided?  What?

Is being a Bible worker any less of a calling than being a pastor? My wife's mother was a full time, unpaid Bible Worker for several years. Her Bible studies resulted in many more baptisms than the pastors that she worked with. She was able to devote more time to outreach & Bible studies.

"Spreading the message" isn't just about being in an important leadership position. It is also about reflecting the love of Christ to others!

The badge of Christianity is ... is that which reveals the union of man with God. By the power of His grace manifested in the transformation of character the world is to be convinced that God has sent His Son as its Redeemer. No other influence that can surround the human soul has such power as the influence of an unselfish life. The strongest argument in favor of the gospel is a loving and lovable Christian.--TSS 115, 116.  {CSW 100.1}

Is this person's witness any less important than a pastor's work? Can not an active lay person be just as effective in winning souls as a pastor?
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 26, 2015, 10:15:36 PM
What is a pastor expected by God, to do ?  Why can not a lay person or Bible Worker do these things SOP speaks of ? (edited to fit 5K)   ( pastor* "new field' = 7 hits )

Quote
   Preaching not Sufficient. Personal
               Work of Utmost Importance.


     "He preaches to the people, but makes no after effort to follow up the sermons given. He said he could not visit families, that he just despised that kind of labor." You can imagine the condition of a flock unvisited by the shepherd. I have repeatedly had this matter presented before me, that the men who are ordained to preach the word should be educated to make full proof of their ministry in their personal labors in families, talking with the members of the family, understanding their spiritual condition, encouraging, reproving with all long-suffering and doctrine, praying with them, binding up his interest with their hearts and souls. This is the work of a faithful shepherd.  {PH002 17.1}  ...........

      If there is any corner of the world where churches can be built up and kept in a prosperous condition by sermonizing, while they neglect personal labor, I have yet to learn of this. ........ Those who can only preach, are not missionaries, and never can be, until they learn the skill, the watchful, tender compassion of a shepherd. The flock of God have a right to expect to be visited by their pastor, to be instructed, advised, counseled, in their own homes. And if a man fails to do this part of the work, he can not be a minister after God's order. The churches that have such labor are disorganized, weak, and sickly, and ready to die. The sermons are not vitalized by the Spirit of God, because the blessing of God will not rest upon any man who is neglecting the flock of God.  {PH002 17.2} 

     It is in the labor out of the pulpit, among families, that the richest and most valuable experience is gained, and that the minister learns how he can feed the flock of God, giving to each his portion of meat in due season. If there is a backslider, the shepherd knows how to present the truth in such a manner that the soul will be convicted. He will leave the ninety and nine, and seek the lost sheep. But if the shepherd does not visit his flock, he knows not their condition, he knows not what truths to set before them, nor what is appropriate to their case. ..... because of those neglects, you often hear, "I do not have success in bringing souls into the church." The Lord cannot work for those who are unfaithful, who neglect their manifest duty, the most important part of a shepherd's duty. Should the Lord move upon the hearts of the sinners, and they become converted, who will watch for them as one who must give an account? Who will visit them? Who will strengthen the diseased and the feeble ones? The truth, if presented to those of our faith and outsiders, should be as it is in Jesus. See with what love, tender sympathy, and perseverance he labored. "He shall not fail nor be discouraged." This spirit should be with all the laborers. Better, far better, have fewer preachers and far more earnest, humble, God-fearing workers. We are laborers together with God. Now it is highly essential that men be the right kind of laborers, for they are moulding the churches to do as the preacher does; they feel that it is the right way to have just as little interest in the prosperity of their brethren and sisters in the church as the minister has given them an example in their way of laboring. They may raise up churches; but they will always be weak, and inefficient, and unreliable. Such kind of work at such an expense will not pay.  {PH002 18.1} 

     After they have become dyed in the wool, it is not easy to transform such men. A slack, shiftless, irresponsible shepherd will lose more sheep than he will gather in. It will require more earnest labor to counteract the mould given such people organized into a church than to raise up new churches; for the members seem to have no right and just ideas of doing anything, or in bearing any responsibilities in building up a healthful, growing church. If there are good, sensible men who can speak the word of life, and then follow up their labor with personal instruction, they are needed everywhere.--Mrs. E. G. White, Melbourne, Aus., March 12, 1892.

                                               -
  {PH002 19.1}   
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on March 27, 2015, 12:52:44 PM
yes, that little word......  IF 
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: ColporteurK on March 27, 2015, 02:09:59 PM
However, taking care of the flock, visiting the sick, etc are important christian duties also, much of which can be done by caring church members!

There is absolutely no end to the work a woman can do just simply visiting the elderly and/or lonely people or ones who live alone, help with food, etc.  But then that's not "spreading the message," and these women feel that they are being called to be a pastor.  And most of them are probably not "in rebellion."  So what are they?  Caught up in culture?  Misguided?  What?

All the above. I think there is more rebellion than we might think it just takes on a different look. Judas betrayed  Jesus with a kiss. To be "caught up in culture" IS rebellion and it is misguided. That's not to say it is hopeless. The Lord knows their path and their heart. Surely a few will come around.
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: newbie on March 28, 2015, 12:20:38 PM
heard a lady say in church some time ago..."if it comes from our church then it must be true."  while I like that she has great faith in the church it makes me shutter to think that these things are not being investigated by the individuals
Title: Re: NAD's Agenda to Establish Women's Ordination Before 2015 GC Vote
Post by: restoretruth on April 10, 2015, 09:01:04 PM
"Christ or Culture  --  Adventist Women's Ordination Crisis Overview"

"Please take a moment and watch this short video  about the ordination of women in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. <  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_OytbgyfUY  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_OytbgyfUY)>

"Express your opinion on this issue by taking our ordination survey now. < https://docs.google.com/forms/d/17KrwH6_WiJ7E9vB1McUoNQXmVG2Y0brJQrZI8ZBhsR8/viewform (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/17KrwH6_WiJ7E9vB1McUoNQXmVG2Y0brJQrZI8ZBhsR8/viewform) >

"Please forward this email to your local influence if the spirit convicts you to do s
o."

We received the above email with these links on April 9. The video is very well done & worth watching!