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Other Forums => Town Hall => Topic started by: In His Grip on March 08, 2013, 08:24:11 PM

Title: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: In His Grip on March 08, 2013, 08:24:11 PM
Hello,

I'm a long time reader of this forum, but this is the first time I've participated on a topic.  I have deeply enjoyed and appreciated the wisdom that God has guided many of you who are regular participants.  We have some issues at my church that have been recently brewing.  First, some of our church members have been attempting to have the leader of the ministry Keep the Faith preach at our church.  This has caused some influential leaders to resist and successfully label this ministry as extreme.  I have listened to the Keep the Faith CD's and have really enjoyed them.  The term that was apparently used to describe this ministry was "panic preaching".   Do some of you have any opinions on this ministry?  Also,  a side issue was brought up.  I don't know the date, but there were claims against this ministry about an apparent CD that the  leader of this ministry was advocating for King James Only.  So, the case was made against  Keep the Faith ministry because they are advocating KJV only.  I'd really appreciate some opinions on this also.   

Thank you and may God Bless each of you!

Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: restoretruth on March 09, 2013, 06:27:20 PM
Hello,

I'm a long time reader of this forum, but this is the first time I've participated on a topic.  I have deeply enjoyed and appreciated the wisdom that God has guided many of you who are regular participants.  We have some issues at my church that have been recently brewing.  First, some of our church members have been attempting to have the leader of the ministry Keep the Faith preach at our church.  This has caused some influential leaders to resist and successfully label this ministry as extreme.  I have listened to the Keep the Faith CD's and have really enjoyed them.  The term that was apparently used to describe this ministry was "panic preaching".   Do some of you have any opinions on this ministry?  Also,  a side issue was brought up.  I don't know the date, but there were claims against this ministry about an apparent CD that the  leader of this ministry was advocating for King James Only.  So, the case was made against  Keep the Faith ministry because they are advocating KJV only.  I'd really appreciate some opinions on this also.   

Thank you and may God Bless each of you!

Hi "In His Grip"!  Welcome! Glad you joined this forum!

We weren't familiar with this ministry so we did a little research.  Hal Mayer of  "Keep The Faith" ministry is a 1981 graduate of Wiemar College. Dr. Colin Standish was dean at the time. Hal & his wife Betsy, along with Dr. Standish were part of a group who wanted to establish a "health facility and a missionary college" in the east in response to EGW's charge in Testimonies, volume 9 Page 99. The Mayers researched & found the property where Heartland Education is now located.

We believe these people are strong in the Bible & EG White's writings. This may produce a polarizing effect among church members. We haven't listened To Mayer's videos (we may), so we don't know how he presents our message. We have read some of Dr.Standish's books & have heard him preach.  I think most on this forum would agree that our church needs revival, or we wouldn't be on this site. Some may take exception to my post & consider these people as "off-shoots".  We don't agree & believe it is time for all God's people to draw together! I am sure there are others who might have more info or other views to share on this. May God bless you & all who are preparing their lives to meet Jesus soon!
Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: In His Grip on March 09, 2013, 08:26:40 PM
Thank you for your reply Restoretruth.  What about the issue with KJV only?  Is the position KJV only an extreme position?

Thanks and God bless!
Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: restoretruth on March 09, 2013, 10:11:44 PM
Thank you for your reply Restoretruth.  What about the issue with KJV only?  Is the position KJV only an extreme position?

There has been a lot of discussion of that on here & It has been a heated topic at times, unfortunately.  I think that many on this forum think it is a valid issue, myself included. There is a lot of misinformation out there. I was doing some research today on the origin of 1John 5:7 because many versions leave it out & say it was not in the original manuscripts & not in any before the 16th century & that it was added to a manuscript to teach the trinity doctrine. I googled the question: "Is it true that 1st John 5:7 was not in any of the original manuscripts before 16th century?" Here is what came up on one site.
< http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp  (http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp)>

"A Trail of Evidence
But during this same time, we find mention of 1 John 5:7, from about 200 AD through the 1500s. Here is a useful timeline of references to this verse:
200 AD
Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas
250 AD
Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin)
350 AD
Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]
350 AD
Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]
350 AD
Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione
398 AD
Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism
415 AD
Council of Carthage appealed to 1 John 5:7 when debating the Arian belief (Arians didn't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ)
450-530 AD
Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:
     A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"
     B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]
     C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]
500 AD
Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]
550 AD
Old Latin ms r has it
550 AD
The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]
750 AD
Wianburgensis referred to it "
800 AD
Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]
1000s AD
miniscule 635 has it
1150 AD
minuscule ms 88 in the margin
1300s AD
miniscule 629 has it
157-1400 AD
Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse
1500 AD
ms 61 has the verse

Even Nestle's 26th edition Greek New Testament, based upon the corrupt Alexandrian text, admits that these and other important manuscripts have the verse: 221 v.l.; 2318 Vulgate [Claromontanus]; 629; 61; 88; 429 v.l.; 636 v.l.; 918; l; r.

Apparently, the claim that 1John 5:7 was not in the early manuscripts is faulty.

There are many websites with detailed information the KJV  & why they think it is based on more accurate manuscripts. The thing to remember is that God promised to & has preserved His Word. A person can still find God's truth in most Bibles if they are seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance & comparing scripture with scripture.

The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Psa 12:6-7

Isa 40:8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever...the word of the Lord endureth for ever....1Pe 1:23-25





Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 10, 2013, 12:44:39 AM
Hello In His Grip. It is good to see you posting. I have some familiarity with Hal Mayer from a very conservative discussion forum in which he was a regular participant a few years ago. I also received the CD sermons for  2 or 3 years. I believe that he is solid in Adventists teachings and the Spirit of Prophesy. However he lost a lot of credibility over the so called "secret meeting" story that he sent out to the 16,000 people around the world on his mailing list a few years ago. The story was that just before the much hyped visit of pope John Paul II to the the US, the Christian Coalition had a secret meeting with a number of prominent politicians to discuss plans for a Sunday law. The meeting was said to be attended by Al Gore, Nancy Pelosi, as well as other dignitaries including a RC Cardinal. Security was provided by the US Secret Service. The purpose of the meeting was said to be to prepare a document for the Pope who would use it in a speech in which he would reveal plans for a national Sunday law that was to be implemented in the near future. The information came to Hal Mayer from Alan Fine, a former Adventist minister who was at the meeting.

To make a long story short, the GC Religious Liberty received many calls asking about this and their response was it is nonsense. The same story had circulated before by the same person and had been proven false. Because of the attention the story received after Mayer released it Gregg Hamilton of the North Pacific Union R.L. department, who is an attorney and a psychiatrist, if I'm not mistaken, investigated the story again. He talked to the director of the Christian Coalition who said there was a routine CC meeting on that date, but there were no dignitaries present, there was no discussion of any Sunday Law, and it was certainly not secret. She said that Alan Fine was present. (she had some negative things to say about him, but thats another story) Gregg Hamilton contacted the Virginia Conference where Fine had been employed. They said he had been terminated some time before, and that he had a pattern of telling stories to make himself important.
Gregg Hamilton was able to contact mr. Fine (after much effort), and in a lengthy interview, Fine admitted that he had fabricated most of the story.
Sadly, Hal Mayer stood by the story and refused to retract it or correct it in the following monthly CDs. As far as I know he still has never retracted it.

Another criticism that has been made is that he persists in calling himself "pastor" Hal Mayer, although he has never been a pastor of the Seventh-day Adventist church and has no ministerial credentials.

All of that aside, it seems that he is on the conservative side on most issues.

Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 10, 2013, 01:35:44 AM
Hello In His Grip. It is good to see you posting. I have some familiarity with Hal Meyer from a very conservative discussion forum in which he was a regular participant a few years ago. I also received the CD sermons for  2 or 3 years. I believe that he is solid in Adventists teachings and the Spirit of Prophesy. However he lost a lot of credibility over the so called "secret meeting" story that he sent out to the 16,000 people around the world on his mailing list a few years ago. The story was that just before the much hyped visit of pope John Paul II to the the US, the Christian Coalition had a secret meeting with a number of prominent politicians to discuss plans for a Sunday law. The meeting was said to be attended by Al Gore, Nancy Pelosi, as well as other dignitaries including a RC Cardinal. Security was provided by the US Secret Service. The purpose of the meeting was said to be to prepare a document for the Pope who would use it in a speech in which he would reveal plans for a national Sunday law that was to be implemented in the near future. The information came to Hal Mayer from Alan Fine, a former Adventist minister who was at the meeting.

To make a long story short, the GC Religious Liberty received many calls asking about this and their response was it is nonsense. The same story had circulated before by the same person and had been proven false. Because of the attention the story received after Mayer released it Gregg Hamilton of the North Pacific Union R.L. department, who is an attorney and a psychiatrist, if I'm not mistaken, investigated the story again. He talked to the director of the Christian Coalition who said there was a routine CC meeting on that date, but there were no dignitaries present, there was no discussion of any Sunday Law, and it was certainly not secret. She said that Alan Fine was present. (she had some negative things to say about him, but thats another story) Gregg Hamilton contacted the Virginia Conference where Fine had been employed. They said he had been terminated some time before, and that he had a pattern of telling stories to make himself important.
Gregg Hamilton was able to contact mr. Fine (after much effort), and in a lengthy interview, Fine admitted that he had fabricated most of the story.
Sadly, Hal Mayer stood by the story and refused to retract it or correct it in the following monthly CDs. As far as I know he still has never retracted it.

Another criticism that has been made is that he persists in calling himself "pastor" Hal Mayer, although he has never been a pastor of the Seventh-day Adventist and has no ministerial credentials.

All of that aside, it seems that he is on the conservative side on most issues.

Larry, you have made the point well that someone who would resort to this kind of deception is not worth the time of day.

To insist that the KJV is the only translation to be trusted is an extreme position and is not supported even by Ted Wilson. 

Stan
Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: restoretruth on March 10, 2013, 11:07:26 AM
Hi Larry, Thank you for the information on Hal Mayer. I wonder if he has ever retracted that story he put out? It certainly discredits him if he hasn't. We all have to be careful about checking out sources before using them. This forum is helpful in many ways & brings balance to our own views by bringing in the experience of others. As a people who have faith in Jesus as our savior & believe that He is coming soon we need to draw closer to Him while loving others as Christ first loved us. While we need to be aware of current events & the fulfillment of prophecy we do not need to rely on sensationalism to bolster our Christian experience.

We need Bible study, prayer, heart searching, total surrender & commitment to Christ, & we need to share Christ with others! One way to share Christ is to find opportunities to tell others our personal testimony of what Christ means to us! That can only come from personal time with God in Bible study & prayer. Sensational topics may get someones attention but sharing a personal experience in knowing Christ has a deeper, more lasting affect on the non-believer.

That said; the KJV issue is a subject that also needs balance. There are many God fearing men & women, even many theologians, who have sincere & different views on the KJV issue. If it is discussed again here it needs to be done calmly & with an open mind, while continuing to love those with whom we may disagree.
Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: Richard OFfill on March 11, 2013, 03:06:02 PM
It seems to me there are those who can't seem to grow in grace but need pseudo-spiritual adrenalin. Those who do it best 'concoct' the recipe as they go along.   :-)
Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: FromTheLake on July 20, 2018, 05:52:17 PM
Hello,

I'm a long time reader of this forum, but this is the first time I've participated on a topic.  I have deeply enjoyed and appreciated the wisdom that God has guided many of you who are regular participants.  We have some issues at my church that have been recently brewing.  First, some of our church members have been attempting to have the leader of the ministry Keep the Faith preach at our church.  This has caused some influential leaders to resist and successfully label this ministry as extreme.  I have listened to the Keep the Faith CD's and have really enjoyed them.  The term that was apparently used to describe this ministry was "panic preaching".   Do some of you have any opinions on this ministry?  Also,  a side issue was brought up.  I don't know the date, but there were claims against this ministry about an apparent CD that the  leader of this ministry was advocating for King James Only.  So, the case was made against  Keep the Faith ministry because they are advocating KJV only.  I'd really appreciate some opinions on this also.   

Thank you and may God Bless each of you!

Hello In His grip,

Thanks for posting your concerns, I will attempt to answer as honestly and frankly as I can and pray for The Holy Spirit to aid you in discerning error from truth. You’ve raised a few seperate questions and I will treat them seperately.

We actually had the leader of Keep the Faith, Hal Mayer, at our church recently. The first and most important issue I had with the sermon was that Christ wasn’t mentioned at all, not once, in a half hour sermon, every other issue is secondary. I’m not quite sure whether Hal’s is genuinely an “extreme” message, because “extreme” has so many different meanings. The sermon preached at our church was most definitely in the “panic preaching” category. The entire sermon was “New World Order 101”, with historical passages of scripture taken as being prophetic (ie. the Genesis account of the Tower of Babel). These historical passages were read in such a way as to support the notion that “because the Tower of Babel was in the clouds, therefore governments are secretly trying to control, the weather”. Hal’s message was big on conspiracy theories, and it definitely came across as fear-mongering. In this sense it was extreme. For this reason, we won’t be extending another invitation to preach. The entire message was full of strange ideas, and lots of language used by conspiracists. E.G. White warned us against this kind of preaching, that rather than preach strange ideas we should preach Christ Crucified.

As far as liking the CDs, one of our trusted friends from church here liked the CDs too. I suspect that the CDs are less polarising than the sermons Hal has been known to preach. I haven’t heard the CDs, and unfortunately because of the message that was presented at church, I won’t be. So my advice on this note is, if you have the CDs and enjoy them, continue to enjoy them, but please, don’t let yourself be distracted from what’s important, and if you find yourself thinking more about a conspiracy than about Jesus Christ Crucified, re-evaluate your stance on this.

I don’t remember Hal making a major point about KJV only, but if he did it would have only been a single sentence. I wouldn’t be over surprised if he has said things about a KJV-only theology, as often people who preach these kinds of message do, but I didn’t see it myself, so this part of my opinion only. My advice on this, is that if someone in your church has heard Hal preach a KJV-only theology, or if it’s well documented (ie. on a YouTube video of Hal preaching), don’t discount it or shrug it off, take seriously their concern.

Since you asked for opinions, I suggest asking the question, “is it really worth inviting a preacher that has already created tensions and rifts having never actually preached there?” Do any research you need to do, and ask yourself, “if there was a first-timer or a new Sevvy at your church, and they heard this message being preached, would you ever see them again?”.

I hope that The Lord blesses your ministry in your local church, and that the Holy Spirit guides you into all truth.
Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: Listen on July 21, 2018, 12:58:52 PM
"KJV-only theology"
I have heard many people say that the KJV is best for Bible study but do read other versions.  They also like to read different versions of particular verses to get a better idea of what a particular passage means.

My view of Hal Mayer is that he can preach a very Christ and gospel centered sermon.  At other times he too much likes to look at current events with way too much detail and relate it to prophecy.  I know this first hand and so avoid church when he is going to be there.  But I do listen to some of his videos on-line as there I can chose what I listen to.
Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: JesusComingSoon on September 10, 2018, 02:51:21 PM
Well, It's interesting to see what people have to say about me. Anyone who publishes online is going to get feedback from a wide variety of people, both positive and negative. Being objective, I take criticism as a means by which to understand how people perceive us which also helps us grow. Those who know me, know that I am friendly to everyone, even those who are not like me.

I love Jesus and I love God's SDA church and message. I am a member in good standing. Jesus and Ellen White clearly say that we are to watch the signs of the times. Our ministry niche is just that. We do not try to re-invent the wheel that other ministries have created. We do the analysis and research which saves many people a lot of time that they don't have to understand our world in light of Bible prophecy. They can listen to our CDs as they drive in their cars or do other tasks. We don't do a monthly DVD because busy people don't have time to watch, mostly. We have done several one-off DVD series with Pastor Stephen Bohr's ministry called Prophetic Secrets of the New World Order, and a one-day event that is now on DVD called Religious Liberty in the Age of Trump. Another series called Firebell in the Night is under production right now. For those interested, you can call our office at 540-672-3553.

There are those who like our material and there are those who don't. We recognize that our material may not be of interest to all. But for those who like prophecy and current events, it is usually something that helps them to think more about the coming of Jesus and the need to be prepared for what is coming to pass before He comes. Our ministry has quietly influenced the lives of many to get into Bible study, do a lot of heart-searching and repentance, along with revival and reformation. 

I can't remember, but if I have not made the link between my sermon content and Christ, I sincerely apologize. I am fully aware that we must put Christ at the center of our message. Perhaps I assumed that's understood. Some people think that prophecy and Christ are incompatible. We could not disagree with that idea more. Christ is the center of prophecy and is its focus. It came from Christ and points to Christ. Much more could be said about that.

As for the KJV only controversy, I have preached one sermon on the history of the KJV that I recall, maybe one other. I do not believe that the KJV is the only bible to use, but I do believe that it is the best Bible, for various reasons for study and preaching. EGW used other versions here and there, but as far as I know, she always preached from the KJV and it was certainly her Bible for her personal study. I follow her example in this issue. I have even quoted other versions on occasion in my sermons where the point being made is more compatible with that particular version. Most people have no clue about the history of the KJV and the other versions. But it is the history that is convincing to me. I am not dogmatic on this issue. I happen to think that the NKJV is better than most other translations, but don't find it that inspiring to me. If that view is extreme then so be it. But I don't think it is for most reasonable people.

As for the content of our messages, I try to emphasize that Jesus is coming soon and that we should be thinking about how to come into line with all his teachings and requirements. I believe we are in the investigative judgment and that our message (the three angels messages) is a distinct, end-time message and that God's people living in this time in history have a special last generation message and mission.

As for the term "pastor..." When people ask this question I tell them that I am a lay pastor. I do not claim to be a conference pastor and I am quite open about it. I have been called to the pastoral ministry in a self-supporting capacity. I do full-time pastoral work. I don't impose it on anyone. Jesus didn't insist on them calling him Rabbi, though that is how he was viewed. He never went to a rabbinical school or was ordained to the rabbinical priesthood. I think I'm in good company. My pastoral role is in relation to my ministry to a global body of believers who recognize the importance of our work. That's all. I don't argue with anyone about it.

Perhaps I'll write more later.

I wish all of you the best. I hope and pray that this message clears up any misunderstandings.

God be with you.
Hal Mayer
Keep the Faith Ministry
Abide Wellness Retreats






 
Title: Re: Extreme positions or not.
Post by: JesusComingSoon on September 10, 2018, 02:54:06 PM
Here is a little more response to the discussion about our ministry.

Perhaps some may not understand our views on the New World Order as they should. We do not major in minors. We may mention minor issues as part of a sermon, but to attempt to discredit our message based on something I may have said about weather manipulation or whatever else is not valid. Though our message may be unusual, our ministry is scripture-based. The focus of our teaching concerning the New World Order is that it is predicted in many areas of scripture, including Revelation 13. You cannot have a global worship law (see vs 8), as in a universal Sunday law, without a global political order, a global economic order, and a number of other global principles, all of which are identified in scripture.

There may be those who wish to quibble with one minor matter or another, or who simply do not wish to believe what we teach. That is up to them. But we will continue to focus on scripture and its application to our times unapologetically. Some may call it "panic preaching," or sensationalism, or some other epitaph. But if Jesus told us to pay attention to these things, I don't think we are off track. We do not hyperventilate about prophetic issues. We simply lay them out to the best of our ability. We may have our faults (who doesn't), but all should look at the emphasis of our message and judge us based on what we teach and its correlation to scripture and especially the three angels messages. If some of our subscribers were reading this site, I suspect you'd hear quite a lot of opposing views to what has been written.

As for our 2008 sermon on the secret meeting in Washington, the details of which were given to us by Alan Fine, we learned a lot about the need to verify our details before the fact rather than after the fact. Our mistake was that we went to press before we had done that verification. We had no reason to believe that Alan Fine was telling us anything but the truth.

After the fact, once Greg Hamilton had raised his concerns, we had about 12 different people doing research to help verify whether or not the things we had said were true. Hamilton's approach actually helped us get the research going (which was good). I would have gladly retracted the whole thing had that research proven our essential message to be false. But the research actually showed that the essentials were true. So, we published our research and apologized in that message for any misinformation that had been originally published. There were a number of details that were incorrect, and there were also a few bits of the original sermon that we could not verify. But we verified the meeting with the hotel. We even verified that NSA representatives were present and that the meeting was sponsored by the Christian Coalition (their denials notwithstanding), etc. We verified everything we could from tertiary sources once we confirmed that the meeting actually happened. The only source for the direct quotes was from Alan Fine. But essentially all the main points of the rest of the story were verified.

Alan Fine is no doubt a maverick. And apparently, he had his challenges. But he was not terminated from the conference (we checked) for any disciplinary reasons, as some had said. There was a lot of misinformation flying around from both Greg Hamilton and James Standish, as well as one other player - the forensic psychologist (I've forgotten his name). Anyway, we were honest with our research. I'm not the kind of person to cow-tow to the politically correct. Jesus didn't, so why should I? In any case, while some may think of us in the context of 2008, that was ten years ago, now quite out of date. We are a much more mature ministry a decade down the track. I would hope that all would be as gracious as Christ and allow us to grow from our mistakes.

So, in the end, we learned a powerful lesson. Do your due diligence first - then publish. Our policy since that event has been very clear and public. We do not publish anything that we cannot verify from credible secular sources or prophetic sources in advance. Today, for those who wish to keep track of prophetic developments KTF is one of the most credible ministries out there. No other ministry publishes daily and monthly on prophetic developments in current events. If for instance, you receive our daily Prophetic Intelligence Briefings, you will notice that there is a link to the original source article(s) where the reader can verify for himself whether what we have said is true or not.

We do not concoct anything. We simply link current events to Bible prophecy. You are welcome to join us. Our app is on the app stores and we are glad to add anyone on this forum to our free CD or daily email subscriptions.

God be with you all.

Hal Mayer
Keep the Faith Ministry
Abide Wellness Retreats