Revival Sermons

News => Let's Get Aquainted => Topic started by: ElderTim on May 16, 2012, 06:42:23 PM

Title: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: ElderTim on May 16, 2012, 06:42:23 PM
Hi Everyone,

Lots and lots of questions but first and foremost, I know we must stay grounded in the Word of God to keep from confusion in these last days, but I feel there is definately some great contributions being made by independent or itinerant preachers.  The likes of Walter Veith, Stephen Boer, Doug Bachelor to name a few. Are these ministries shaking the cage so to speak? Your thoughts are welcome.

Elder Tim
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Raven on May 17, 2012, 04:09:41 AM
Anyone who preaches a straight message, and by that I mean the "truth" as we have always understood it, will shake things up a bit.  Those men you mentioned are loyal Adventists, but they are not afraid to preach against error when they see it.  In some respects they are like Jeremiah; and will receive similar criticism.  The unvarnished truth is part of what produces The Shaking.  It seems to me that if a sermon doesn't "offend" someone, it hasn't achieved its goal.  The purpose of a sermon is to edify and encourage the saints, to magnify Christ, and to bring conviction to those who need it.  That will cause some to be uncomfortable.  That's a good sign.  It means they still have a conscience.

The independent ministries that I have a problem with are the ones which lead their members to develop a "bunker" mentality and to isolate themselves from believers who attend the local church.  These groups often become like cults.  They tend to see Jesuits behind every corner and a Sunday law buried in nearly every bill that comes before Congress.

Jesus had an independent ministry, but He didn't encourage His members to isolate themselves form the local synagogues or to withhold their tithe whenever the church did something they didn't like.  I like His example.

And by the way, welcome to the forum ElderTim.  I hope you will be blessed with what you find here.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: newbie on May 17, 2012, 06:58:07 AM
Hi Everyone,

Lots and lots of questions but first and foremost, I know we must stay grounded in the Word of God to keep from confusion in these last days, but I feel there is definately some great contributions being made by independent or itinerant preachers.  The likes of Walter Veith, Stephen Boer, Doug Bachelor to name a few. Are these ministries shaking the cage so to speak? Your thoughts are welcome.

Elder Tim
It seems like Walter is the troubler of Israel.  :wink:
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 17, 2012, 03:05:08 PM
It seems like Walter is the troubler of Israel.  :wink:
Very true, Newbie.
Elder Tim. Welcome to the Forum!!
Unfortunately, some who dislike Walter Veith the most have never seen him or his DVDs, and wrongly accuse him of doing the opposite of what he really does. I think that his exposing the activities, the reach and interconnectedness of the various organizations and secret societies makes some church administrators and pastors uncomfortable. The term "conspiracy theorist" is a label used to discount and discredit whomever it is applied to and people tend to want to distance themselves from someone who might get branded with that label.  However, all of the information Walter Veith used in his Total Onslaught series was based on credible published material that has been around for many years.

Incidentally, his Total Onslaught series was recorded several years ago. His latest series "Total Transformation," is very much in tune with Ted Wilson's call for revival and reformation.

I agree that Doug Batchelor and Steve Bohr are not afraid to preach truth even if it steps on toes. Pastor O'Ffill is included in that list.

I noticed recently that John Lomacang preached about the entertainment world and presented  material similar to information that WF revealed concerning the widespread occult and Satanist connections within the entertainment industry that many, even among Adventists, have trouble accepting as real. .
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Ed Sutton on May 17, 2012, 03:59:35 PM
Elijah & John the Baptist & EGW all troubled Israel in different centuries,  Israel needs to be troubled now.   When's the last time a visitor was given a hospitably warm welcome in the SDA Churches in the NAD ?  After having watched a bunch of Walter Veith's presentations, I say preach it stronger Walter  :-D

Was bones in stones devisive IN the Church, ................... well .........maybe in La Sierra  :evil:

http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/8/103-bones-in-stones/

Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Raven on May 17, 2012, 05:07:59 PM
 When's the last time a visitor was given a hospitably warm welcome in the SDA Churches in the NAD ? 


Not sure what you mean by that, Ed.  I've never visited a SDA Church where I didn't feel welcome, and I've been in churches from sea to shining sea, and in Canada.  I have observed that some folks seem to have a chip on their shoulder when they visit churches, and no matter how they are treated, they won't be happy.  Visitors to our small church are always made welcome.  In spite of that we once got a letter from someone complaining about how unfriendly we had been.  :roll:  You can't please everyone.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Jim on May 17, 2012, 06:14:34 PM
Visitors to our small church are always made welcome.

Raven, I know most people will think that is a wonderful thing. I guess I'm the odd ball. When I'm visiting a church in a different area I always hope it's large enough that they won't notice that I'm a visitor. I really do not like all the attention that some churches give visitors. I visited a church a few years ago in KY where I could barely turn around without someone wanting to shake my hand and say welcome. I literally counted 5 or 6 times members shook my hand and welcomed me before I was finally able to sit down. I've been to some churches who actually ask the visitors to stand up. I never do..... why in the world would anyone want the whole group of strangers staring at them? I like to slip in enjoy a healthy discussion in Sabbath School and then listen to a good message for the service and slip out without much notice. But in most small churches alas this is almost impossible!  
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Raven on May 18, 2012, 05:10:10 AM
Jim, I feel the same way you do, and, much as I don't like large churches, I find it easier to visit large churches because in a small church you are likely to get mobbed.  We try to hit a happy medium in our church.  We don't ask them to stand up (I don't understand why they do that in some churches), but we don't ignore them, either.  I like to know where visitors are from (it often provides a springboard for conversation, and there are often mutual acquaintances), but I don't always ask their names because I know that I'll forget them within 5 minutes.  :roll:  :-(
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: newbie on May 18, 2012, 06:44:55 AM
everyone is different....  a general welcome to visitors is all we need...  for the outgoing ones, we can approach and give them more... for the shy ones, let it be on their terms.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 18, 2012, 08:53:33 AM
everyone is different....  a general welcome to visitors is all we need...  for the outgoing ones, we can approach and give them more... for the shy ones, let it be on their terms.
Newbie, that is the best way IMHO.
I have been in  churches where the infamous "greeting" is part of the worship service. To me it is particularly bothersome and I never participate in it. It is bizarre to engage in a loud, chaotic, contrived (and often hypocritical) show of friendliness that is focused on the congregation right at a time when we ought to be reverently and prayerfully in faith approaching the throne of our heavenly Father.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Jim on May 18, 2012, 02:41:40 PM
everyone is different....  a general welcome to visitors is all we need... 

So true Newbie. Everyone is indeed different. Which is why I admitted to being the oddball :)  And some people will feel slighted if someone didn't take the time to single them out and welcome them. I agree that probably a middle of the road approach is best.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Tammy on May 18, 2012, 05:34:38 PM
It is bizarre to engage in a loud, chaotic, contrived (and often hypocritical) show of friendliness that is focused on the congregation right at a time when we ought to be reverently and prayerfully in faith approaching the throne of our heavenly Father.

Totally agree!
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Raven on May 19, 2012, 04:14:10 AM

I have been in  churches where the infamous "greeting" is part of the worship service. To me it is particularly bothersome and I never participate in it. It is bizarre to engage in a loud, chaotic, contrived (and often hypocritical) show of friendliness that is focused on the congregation right at a time when we ought to be reverently and prayerfully in faith approaching the throne of our heavenly Father.

I'm with you 100% on this, Larry.  Fortunately we only have one person who initiates "the greeting," and she's not there very often, and is not usually leading out.  But I've never participated in it, either, and for the same reasons as you.  Few seem to understand the proper decorum in the sanctuary.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: ElderTim on May 21, 2012, 02:27:24 PM
Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. We definately went a different direction with the responses though! I would like to respond to several of the responses, sorry redundnt! First I personally believe there is a shaking and a revival of the church that is happening now.  I also believe, from personal experience that we walk a dangerous road if we are not grounded in the Word when we explore the topics presented by these movers and shakers in ministry. I am fascinated by the wealth of knowledge they present. But we must warn our people not to give more time to the enemy than we do to Christ!

 I also believe that we are in need of some true koininea, hope I spelled that right. Primitive Godliness is not so primitive, in fact it is the most advanced approach to our relationship with God through Jesus Christ that I have seen. Unfortunately, I also see a complacent, somber and prophectically unexcited and dangerously uneducated people. When I say this, I speak from my observations of my own people in my church. I believe they are grateful to Jesus Christ for His Grace, but I dont think they have that full understanding of what God expects from us as His Remnant Church. We all claim to love the Lord so very much, but only a few want to reach out with this gift of Life we have all been given. I agree, sometimes greetings in the sanctuary during service are a bit boisterous, but the body of Christ rarely takes the opportunity to get to know each other more than on Sabbath Mornings and a select few who socialize, but thats as far as it goes! I am afraid that just as the early church grew exponentially during times of crisis and persecution, so we as a church will shake and grow only when the Sunday Laws are a done deal! Sister White tells us plainly that if we wait till that occurs, we just cant change teams like that and Im truly concerned for my church family and our church as a whole...your thoughts.
Title: Re: Statements about John Lomacang and Dr Veith
Post by: ElderTim on May 21, 2012, 02:49:05 PM
I would also like to add my observation to this line of thought....if indeed the enemy has been concentrating his dominion over this world for almost 7000 years, then why is it so far fetched to admit and recognize the entrenched forms of worship he has established for himself among the elite of this planet? Most are ignorant of the Great Controversy so their view is clouded, including some Adventists, and equally ignorant and unbelieving. This is his greatest weapon against Gods people. Apathy and unbelief! Research the Bohemian Grove or the Bildeberg Group... These are well established "gentlemens clubs" where even our heads of state, for well over 120 years, and others are engaged in worshippng Molech, the god/demon spoken of in Leviticus, 1Kings ll Kings, Micah, Zephaniah, etc. Baal was also another name for this demon. It stands to reason that if he has been exerting his control over the earth, that he would have been laying the foundations of deception all this time. I for one have no problem with the facts....those who do may unfortunately be dangerously close to the deception, and in danger of being caught up in it. Just my observations. I believe my King Jesus is worthy of my worship. I wish to turn always from any allegiance that would place me or my family in compromise with the lie.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 21, 2012, 09:40:21 PM
Elder Tim, thank you for the wise counsel and observations. I agree that there is a danger of becoming overly concerned and even obsessed with some of the things that are now being presented. You make a good point about being totally grounded in scripture. I believe that it is extremely vital that we make good use of the present time to know and understand from the Bible what we believe and be able to share it with others. In the little church I attend most of the members have been Adventists for a long time and have a general idea about what the Adventist church teaches, but many do not know the Bible very well.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: maimonides on June 03, 2012, 05:30:01 AM
A review of history would seem to indicate that the Seventh-day Adventist Church started off as an independent ministry...
...And a study of  SDA publications  from 1850 through 1880 reveal that within that time hack.
...The Pioneers of the Faith identified their body as the Remnant.

It would be logical then to conclude that independent ministries, at the DNA level of Adventism....
...Are as much a part of Adventism as anything.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 03, 2012, 03:25:47 PM
A review of history would seem to indicate that the Seventh-day Adventist Church started off as an independent ministry...
...And a study of  SDA publications  from 1850 through 1880 reveal that within that time hack.
...The Pioneers of the Faith identified their body as the Remnant.

It would be logical then to conclude that independent ministries, at the DNA level of Adventism....
...Are as much a part of Adventism as anything.
They are certainly a part of Adventism.  Some have made and still make important contributions to the work and  mission of the church and are leading  many to Christ.  Sadly, there are some that have parted company with the organized church because of various issues. Some of these seek to lead out of the organized church. Only by being grounded in the truths of the Bible can we be safe from being deceived. .
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: maimonides on June 03, 2012, 04:18:41 PM
They are certainly a part of Adventism.  Some have made and still make important contributions to the work and  mission of the church and are leading  many to Christ.  Sadly, there are some that have parted company with the organized church because of various issues. Some of these seek to lead out of the organized church. Only by being grounded in the truths of the Bible can we be safe from being deceived. .

Yes, however eventually the mechanism employed to vett the truth from error is "Church Authority"....
...And as the Catholics are fond of saying; 'if everyone has authority then no one has it'.
...One persons interpretation of Scripture can be just as right as the next.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 03, 2012, 07:17:15 PM

...One persons interpretation of Scripture can be just as right as the next.
That is the falsehood of postmodern relativism. False teachers reveal themselves sooner or later. "By their fruits ye shall know them."
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: maimonides on June 03, 2012, 07:55:35 PM
That is the falsehood of postmodern relativism. False teachers reveal themselves sooner or later. "By their fruits ye shall know them."


Yes, and they simply re-define what is good fruit.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Raven on June 04, 2012, 03:26:06 AM

...One persons interpretation of Scripture can be just as right as the next.

Come again?  So, our Sunday-keeping friends are correct in their interpretation of Scripture?  And Catholics are correct with their doctrine of transubstantiation?  And those who believe that one goes to heaven (or hell) when they die are on the right track?  Do you realize the can of worms you open when you take that position.  No, it is impossible that Scripture can be interpreted anyway we want.  The reason we have so many denominations is that too many people have interpreted Scripture according to their own whims.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 15, 2012, 10:00:44 PM
defining questions that qualify ought be asked.

1. Called of God or offshoot ?
2. fruits of the Spirit and of righteousness ?
3. Unity with the brethern in harmony with John chapter 17 ?
4. A ministry that is a needed part of the worldwide mission and adorns the calling of Revelation chapter 10 ?
5. filling a need not otherwise touched ?
6. Self supporting but local, conference, union, devision, world Church supportive ?
7. Divine evidence of their calling ?
8. retaining brotherhood connections with local conferences, unions, world church ?
9. Whose ire gets directed against it and why ?
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 16, 2012, 05:11:07 PM
defining questions that qualify ought be asked.

1. Called of God or offshoot ?
2. fruits of the Spirit and of righteousness ?
3. Unity with the brethern in harmony with John chapter 17 ?
4. A ministry that is a needed part of the worldwide mission and adorns the calling of Revelation chapter 10 ?
5. filling a need not otherwise touched ?
6. Self supporting but local, conference, union, devision, world Church supportive ?
7. Divine evidence of their calling ?
8. retaining brotherhood connections with local conferences, unions, world church ?
9. Whose ire gets directed against it and why ?
Ed, those are good questions to ask of independent ministries.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 17, 2012, 03:00:37 PM
Quote
Lines Regular and Irregular.

       (In connection with the two following Testimonies,
              see Testimony of September 12, 1908.) {SpM 191.3 - 193.6}


There is a big difference in self supporting work and an independent ministry once the semantics differences are settled.    A genuine independent minbistry is INDEPENDENT of the worldwide family of churches and organized conference system and probably the SDA denomination. 

Ever since EGW's lifetime there have been self supporting works, or ministries, or movements within the SDA faith, some with the blessing of God, and some not.

Satan stirred up little kings within the faith all over the planet to rule where ever they could, and spoil the unity and one ness for which Christ prayed in John 17.

Persecution will remove such from all parts of the faith, but the little kings have sucessfully caused souls to be lost, that was their function under Satan's leadership.  They did not even have to be aware of it, just retain self as an idol and the modality would operate through them as Satan's tools.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 23, 2012, 04:28:32 AM
Madison, Southern Publishing, Little Creek, laurelbrook, Wildwood, Uchee Pines, all were started as self supporting institutions.  calling for tithe, setting up seperate Church officers, identifying themselves as a seperate people of faith different from the denomination, was not in their thinking or radar.  They were undertaking to do a work the organized conference system was not doing.

They identified themselves as Seventh Day Adventists, the people of the same faith as the conference officals whom the members of their groups and churches would vote upon and consider electing to those conference positions.

Conference officals could and did visit and mingle freely among these institutions, many of whom were friends of these institutions and there to interchange telling what was going on in the conference offices and pray together as brethern, and learn and share about the behind the scenes,  world wide grass roots work going on around the world .

it was simply family members visiting briefly and interchanging, encouraging, assisting, praying, working, visiting together, refreshing each other and being refreshed.

Not all was rosy, not all was under handed.    Some was noble and some was base.   Satan was neausated by the happiness and unity and stayed active to mess things up.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Richard OFfill on June 25, 2012, 02:10:34 PM
Have you noticed that independent ministries are usually under the control of what might be called a cult leader.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: restoretruth on June 25, 2012, 10:58:30 PM
Have you noticed that independent ministries are usually under the control of what might be called a cult leader.

Pastor,
I know you believe we understand what you think you said, but I am not sure you realize that what we read is not what you meant.  Please explain thyself!  :-)

Did you not just paint most independent ministries (as in ASI ) as usually being cults with cult leaders!  Or did we not understand what we thought we read?
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Raven on June 26, 2012, 02:52:07 AM
Have you noticed that independent ministries are usually under the control of what might be called a cult leader.

But Pastor, don't you have an independent ministry?  :wink:

All independent ministries are not created equal.  Those whose sole purpose appears to be to attack the church should come under suspicion.  Those whose message results in many people leaving their local church and meeting separately should come under suspicion.   Those whose message results in people withholding their tithes and offerings, or sending them to the independent ministry, should come under suspicion. But I've never heard Pastor O'Ffill, or Stephen Bohr, or Adventists Affirm, just to name a few that come to mind, ask for tithe or suggest that we stop going to our local church.  What I hear from many of these organizations is a call for reform, and a clear stand on many issues which have become controversial or confusing in recent years.  Anyone who denies that we need reforms in the church, has been out of touch with reality for a long time.
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Ed Sutton on June 28, 2012, 09:45:25 AM
Dependent on God, or ( "independent of God " = 43 hits ) is the real question to ask of a ministry.  How do they relate to Revelation chapter 10 & chapters 1-3 and chapter 14 ?

Within some of our readers lifetime this quote will be fulfilled.

Quote
   In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But, it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the daytime we look toward heaven, but do not see stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster.  {ChS 49.2} 
     The time is not far distant, when the test will come to every soul. . . . In this time, the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy, will then go out in darkness. Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat. All who assume the ornaments of the sanctuary, but are not clothed with Christ's righteousness, will appear in the shame of their own nakedness.--Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 80,81.  {ChS 49.3}   

The danger of self congradulation in the here and now, is in moving toward being the majority ....................the majority who......... who forsake God when it gets too tough to stay AND congradulate self.      Kingly power too often built the root of bitterness that motivated the genesis and reason for existance of more than a few ministries, independent or not.

The proverbial iron was hot and John Osborne wanted to use tithe to buy sattelite time to preach the 3 Angels messages.  was he treated with kindness and wise dialog or stirred up by the responce of kingly power ?   Kingly power created a bad reaction.  It did not stop there.  John Grosboll took over Steps to Life after his brother died, he was angry and bitter about things he saw and experienced in the system.   

When ever the King is lesser than the King of Kings, a budding tyrant sits in the desk.  reactions will always follow
Title: Re: Questions on Independent Ministries and the Adventist Churches position
Post by: Ed Sutton on July 05, 2012, 05:54:18 PM
Both groups on either side of the purple book "ISSUES" were in their own way violating Matthew ch's 5-7 and John chapter 17, but each side was "standing for the truth".  Then when the Apostolic denomination with Elder Mike Capps as their NAD president wanted to become SDA's as a denomination, they say both sides fighting, and despite all their denomination's intrest in Daniel / Revelation - all approx 12 million of them walked away, in 1992, the shortwave transmitter that reached 90+ perscent of the short wave world was lost through squabbling, the groundswell surge in folks responding to the preaching of the three angels messages suddenly cooled way down - NAD and world wide compared to what it just had been.

The infighting played right into Satan's hands.  There is truth that is only opinion, there is truth that is only doctrine, there is ["truth as it is in Jesus" = 743   hits]  (that has power to shake the whole Earth ), but there is no power except bad power in truth holding the doctrines of God and fighting inhouse to please the Devil.

( "truth as it is in Jesus" +  mercy = 28   hits ),  {OHC 171.2 - 5}    If they want apostolic power this says how to get it. hit # 8.  {MB 137.2}

Why did both sides have to fight and fight and fight each other over control and self importance - Jesus could have returned before now.

Earnestly contending for the truth AS it IS IN Jesus and contending for the faith OF Jesus (1888 p-217)  - would not have delayed the Second Coming