Revival Sermons

Theology => The Cross => Topic started by: Ed Sutton on March 29, 2011, 01:07:06 PM

Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 29, 2011, 01:07:06 PM
Stan,

Too much of the Bible is still on paper these days.   I'd like more of it in me, I am sure you would too.  

If you don't mind my asking ................ what does your wife say she is angry and depressed over.................I guess everybody looks at death differently and not even the same at different times of life.

After about a dozen pneumonia's ( without insurance and struggling to breath for weeks ) Death for me is sleep with no dreams.  The part that scares me is the painful journey from life getting to death.   lots of what if's that never will be, stuff like that, and some uncertainty about am I really willing to surrender this or that.   Lots of introspection.

Death is freedom from what's coming and the " would I really please him, or let Him down as I so easily do" questions.    

Death is no more worries oiver bills, and knowing that time perseption between now and Jesus's call < be it first or second ressurrection> is only an instant after I stopped thinking.  If I burn I deserve it, He's doing all He can I can be a loose cannon in spirit and behaviour.

Death is the end of my maybe's and waking up is the start of God's yes' s and no's; the uncertainty puts the twinge into thoughts about dying.

I'v had years to come to terms with it.  She hasn't.............................. so maybe loosing the time she always thought she had is another bitter dissapointment whereby she might feel cheated and robbed.

I don't know........just talking to the screen of the laptop.       hope I'm not out of line.

Ed
Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2011, 09:00:22 PM
Stan,

Too much of the Bible is still on paper these days.   I'd like more of it in me, I am sure you would too.  

If you don't mind my asking ................ what does your wife say she is angry and depressed over.................I guess everybody looks at death differently and not even the same at different times of life.

After about a dozen pneumonia's ( without insurance and struggling to breath for weeks ) Death for me is sleep with no dreams.  The part that scares me is the painful journey from life getting to death.   lots of what if's that never will be, stuff like that, and some uncertainty about am I really willing to surrender this or that.   Lots of introspection.

Death is freedom from what's coming and the " would I really please him, or let Him down as I so easily do" questions.    

Death is no more worries oiver bills, and knowing that time perseption between now and Jesus's call < be it first or second ressurrection> is only an instant after I stopped thinking.  If I burn I deserve it, He's doing all He can I can be a loose cannon in spirit and behaviour.

Death is the end of my maybe's and waking up is the start of God's yes' s and no's; the uncertainty puts the twinge into thoughts about dying.

I'v had years to come to terms with it.  She hasn't.............................. so maybe loosing the time she always thought she had is another bitter dissapointment whereby she might feel cheated and robbed.

I don't know........just talking to the screen of the laptop.       hope I'm not out of line.

Ed


Hello Ed,
Wow, your relatively short post is absolutely packed with so many profound thoughts.
I hope folks won't mind if we suspend our discussion on Bible versions to discuss some far more important matters.

However, I will say at the outset, that all the Bible quotations I have put on this website have been from the KJV, and I will quote from it again soon. I have no axe to grind for the NIV, as I prefer the ESV.

Ed wrote:
Too much of the Bible is still on paper these days.   I'd like more of it in me, I am sure you would too
----------------
Amen Ed! What a profound statement, and thanks for helping to put all this in perspective when we have vigorous debate over the strengths and weaknesses of different versions.

Ed wrote:
If you don't mind my asking ................ what does your wife say she is angry and depressed over.................I guess everybody looks at death differently and not even the same at different times of life.
---------------------------
She is having only the normal feelings that many patients with multiple strokes have, and that is depression. They take out their anger on the ones they love the most.
However, her faith is still strong. She is longing for the day when she will have her sight and strength back. She knows that she will be resurrected with the saints on that glorious resurrection morning. However, the course of her disease is not well known, because it is so rare. It is not the usual type of strokes. So, she may have to go suffering for quite some time. But in the meantime, she is finding every way possible to make the best of this situation. She told me the other night, that she has a new job, and that God is her supervisor, and her job is to be the best witness for God that she can be.

I want to continue answering your post, Ed, maybe later tonight, or tomorrow. But, now my standard poodle is begging for a walk, and then I have to put Marti to bed.

Blessings to you Ed

Stan

Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2011, 11:45:17 PM

After about a dozen pneumonia's ( without insurance and struggling to breath for weeks ) Death for me is sleep with no dreams.  The part that scares me is the painful journey from life getting to death.   lots of what if's that never will be, stuff like that, and some uncertainty about am I really willing to surrender this or that.   Lots of introspection.


I am so sorry Ed about your history of illness. May I ask, what is your current health? I remember when you were sick for a few days recently. Please let me know anytime if I can answer any medical questions as I take care of many patients in the hospital with pneumonia.

However, I am also concerned about some spiritual issues that you brought up.


Death is freedom from what's coming and the " would I really please him, or let Him down as I so easily do" questions.    

Death is no more worries oiver bills, and knowing that time perseption between now and Jesus's call < be it first or second ressurrection> is only an instant after I stopped thinking.  If I burn I deserve it, He's doing all He can I can be a loose cannon in spirit and behaviour.

Death is the end of my maybe's and waking up is the start of God's yes' s and no's; the uncertainty puts the twinge into thoughts about dying.


Dear brother Ed,
My heart aches for you right now if the above is how you feel about assurance and the Christian life. How is it possible to sleep at night, if you feel that if you die, you might wake up only to have God burn you in the lake of fire at the second resurrection? How frightening a thought!

Did you know Ed, that if you have been born again, and are adopted as His child, and are truly trusting in the righteousness of Christ, you can be assured that Christ died to cover any imperfections you may perceive that you have? Jesus really did pay it all, and as the great hymns of the faith proclaim such as "Blessed Assurance", and "It is well with my soul", we can know that we have eternal life and possess it now.

Here is one example, and yes it is found in your KJV  :-) 1 John 5:11-13:

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.[/b]

-----------------------------
Why is it that we are hesitant to believe this at face value? This is an absolute promise from God, to give us comfort and rest as we battle the trials and temptations of life. This is what keeps Marti and me going on in our trial of faith.

If we believe this, then we can sing "Blessed Assurance", and "It is well with my soul" with confidence and be able to sleep at night knowing that we can trust God with what He says in His Word.

Genuine faith will produce this assurance.

(To be continued)

Stan




Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 30, 2011, 09:57:57 AM
It's not God I don't trust,  it's me that I don't trust.   At times my heart and mind .....is not Faith, diligence, virtue, grace, peacefullness, desiring to know God, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, Agape agapous Philio driven .....then the life always follows the affections and desires of the heart and mind ........................... unless it educates it's self to operate on faith instead of feelings.

I apostatized from God in the early to mid 80's and was not brought back till the start of the first Gulf war autumn of 1990.   My candlestick had been removed, just like Solomon's had.  I had been trained at wildwood 1970-72 at Wildwood as a believer and a missionary.  

The apostasy did enormus spiritual damage to me, and less extreme than Nebuchadnezzar's case, only a portion of my mind had been removed.  The part that Biblically (knew) was married to God, because that's what I persistantly  desired and acted on.

Before Wiildwood God in 1970 at my initial baptism upon becoming an SDA Christian believer, had removed Satan's candle from my mind and put His Own there instead.  All my wisdom and links and skills from Satan as a warlock were gone, and like Jordan when the priests carrying the ark - it all stopped like a giant thick metal plate had been put down between my past life and such that went with it as a warlock, and my new life.

Then in the early - mid 80's, I decide to set my affections upon things God's boundries had been protecting me from, and in time started crossing boundries even though now NOT as a warlock.  In time God was forced to fulfill His warning in Revelation .

Revelation 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 30, 2011, 10:24:03 AM
A person's ability and willingness to be Jesus's desciple is not Scripturarly constantly unconditional - UNTIL Jesus causes the sealed character to remain constant.

Revelation 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Jesus himself drew me back to Him as the first Gulf War was about to start, and I discovered an absolute in the process.

Luke 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:27  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33  So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.


Luke 9:
23  And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

matthew 10:
37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38  And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24  Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:34  And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23  And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luke 14:27  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

( My worth comes from Jesus - but I decide if I deny self, lift my own cross, if I follow - He can not do it in place of my decision, but He loves to work in me both to will  and to do, in partnership what ever is needed with my affirmative decision and best efforts to do so.)    so Satan attacks me at the desire verses faith level that is his point of ability to interpose - AS LONG AS I RETAIN MY PREFFERED IDOLS.

Satan saw that Jesus said "cannot be"  instead of some lesser intensity of statement.   So here was his opportunity.

The command is Colossians 3:2  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Galatians 5:24  And they that are Christ
Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 30, 2011, 01:30:37 PM
Thanks Ed for your replies.

There is a lot to respond to.

I will have to get back to you later this evening.

I've had a couple of weeks off, but now back to work.

But there is so much to respond to, and I hope our dialogue can be helpful.  I am learning a lot from your posts.

You have given us a lot to think about.

Thanks,

Stan
Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 30, 2011, 11:49:50 PM
It's not God I don't trust,  it's me that I don't trust.   At times my heart and mind .....is not Faith, diligence, virtue, grace, peacefullness, desiring to know God, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, Agape agapous Philio driven .....then the life always follows the affections and desires of the heart and mind ........................... unless it educates it's self to operate on faith instead of feelings.


Ed,
We are not asked to trust ourselves with our salvation, but we are invited by the call of the gospel, to trust in Christ alone. It his only His substitutionary atonement and His imputed righteousness that can give us this assurance of salvation.

I think we are about the same age. When I was young, I had nightmares about the lake of fire. I knew that I could never measure up to what I perceived to be the righteousness God required. I knew I would have to burn a long time before the justice of my guilt would be satisfied.

So I gave up entirely on religion, and decided it wasn't worth it for me.

I was blessed with success in my chosen profession of medicine, and never had to go to war like you did. In December 1982, my wife and I were having a great time on a cruise ship partying it up pretty good. I thought I had it made in life. However, there was this hollow feeling in all that success and lifestyle. I felt quite empty when I got back to our cabin on that cruise ship, I was somehow drawn irresisitably to a Gideon Bible in the drawer--mind you it was a KJV  :-)

I started reading in the book of Matthew on about night 2 of that 7 day cruise, and stayed up very late each night reading with great interest. When I came to the story of the crucifixion, my heart melted. I realized that Christ had died to take away my guilt! I was born again that night. I promised God that I wanted to study His Word and find the truth, no matter where that truth would lead. I vowed to trust Him completely with what He said in His Word.

Since that time I have had a passion to study the Bible.  Oh yes, I wasn't perfect. I had backslidings, but God in His faithfulness would always bring me back to Him. You see, I am His adopted child, and He will do everything He can to hold on to His adopted children.

In my next post I want to explore this concept of adoption.

Also, so many other points to respond to in Ed's post. This will take some time

Stan
Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 31, 2011, 09:20:47 PM
part 1 - 5K limit
2 Corinthians 1:8  For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:

Did Paul ever despair ?   It seems so,  but faith being faith did not leave him in despair.  

Quote
Paul informed the Corinthians of his trouble in Asia, where, he says, "We were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life." In his first epistle he speaks of fighting with beasts at Ephesus. He thus refers to the fanatical mob that clamored for his life. They were indeed more like furious wild beasts than men. With gratitude to God, Paul reviews his danger and his deliverance. He had thought when at Ephesus, that his life of usefulness was about to close, that the promise made to him that he should at last die for his faith, was about to be fulfilled. But God had preserved him, and his remarkable to deliverance made him hope that his labors were not at an end.  {LP 178.2}


Quote
   It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.  {SC 19.1}

     Many are the figures by which the Spirit of God has sought to illustrate this truth, and make it plain to souls that long to be freed from the burden of guilt. When, after his sin in deceiving Esau, Jacob fled from his father's home, he was weighed down with a sense of guilt. Lonely and outcast as he was, separated from all that had made life dear, the one thought that above all others pressed upon his soul, was the fear that his sin had cut him off from God, that he was forsaken of Heaven. In sadness he lay down to rest on the bare earth, around him only the lonely hills, and above, the heavens bright with stars. As he slept, a strange light broke upon his vision; and lo, from the plain on which he lay, vast shadowy stairs seemed to lead upward to the very gates of heaven, and upon them angels of God were passing up and down; while from the glory above, the divine voice was heard in a message of comfort and hope. Thus was made known to Jacob that which met the need and longing of his soul--a Saviour. With joy and gratitude he saw revealed a way by which he, a sinner, could be restored to communion with God. The mystic ladder of his dream represented Jesus, the only medium of communication between God and man. {SC 19.2}
 
Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on March 31, 2011, 09:21:45 PM
conclusion

Under conviction, but not yet surrendered, under the pull of God on one side and his idols upon the other, Paul was in despair, during this Romans chapter 7 experience, the termoil is the struggle to surrender that brought the peace of Romans chapter 8.

It would be interesting to see each verse in Romans chapters 7 & 8 posted in the various versions .  The problem with translating is that literal word for word translating does not account for the messages semantics, context, and total relationship a word or phrase has to the larger whole.

Example :     (phonic spelling it's been 40+ yrs since school )  Ju va fatigue'  in french,   literal = I have fatigue ,  in english the french = I am tired,  but the literal says "I have", but the translated into actual speaking english ='s  "I AM tired", not I have fatigue.

Now in cultural language structure and semantics that loss in translation is minor, but in salvation and understanding God,  changes in God's message have the potential to point the mind and conscience somewhere off center of the message.  Once enough compounded interest has occurred, boundaries have been crossed that were not supposed to be crossed.

That is always a danger in translation work. Looking at all the texts and passages that talk about a topic or facets of the topic provide checks and balances especially when the topic has to perfectly fit into the larger plan of salvation perfectly with out contradicting it's self.  logically that would be some of the helps in translation work.    Known absolutes explain unknowns being studied out, because Scripture always agrees with it's self, self disagreements reveal either mistakes or faulty understanding of what is being read means.
Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 31, 2011, 10:50:08 PM
Ed wrote:
Death is no more worries oiver bills, and knowing that time perseption between now and Jesus's call < be it first or second ressurrection> is only an instant after I stopped thinking.  If I burn I deserve it, He's doing all He can I can be a loose cannon in spirit and behaviour.

Death is the end of my maybe's and waking up is the start of God's yes' s and no's; the uncertainty puts the twinge into thoughts about dying.

--------------------

Ed,
It doesn't have to be this way.

I do not like the popular evangelical doctrine of "once saved, always saved." The way it is presented can be very dangerous. All you have to do is say a certain prayer, or come forward at a crusade, and you can be assured of salvation even if your lifestyle and affections don't change. But the other dangerous extreme is that you get saved one week, and then you blow it, and you have to get saved again by coming forward again the next week.This example happens all the time in Pentecostal Holiness churches. Roman Catholics also have no definite hope of salvation in the present, because they don't know if they have done enough. The Reformation doctrine avoids these extremes. The Reformers taught the doctrine of the Preservation of the Saints, and God is the one that makes sure we persevere in the faith, and it is God who promises to work out our salvation if we trust Him. We don't dare put any trust in ourselves. They taught that we can have peace and assurance now, just as the Bible teaches it.

The books of John (and 1John), Romans, and Ephesians are where we find didactic teaching on the doctrine of salvation, taught by our Lord Jesus, and by John and Paul. Incidentally, it should be remembered that the apostle John wrote the gospel, as well as the epistle, and the book of Revelation. So nothing in Revelation can contradict the book of John or 1 John. There is now good historical evidence that Revelation was written before the gospel and epistle, as John spoke about the antichrist that was to come in 1 John.

Jesus defined the requirement for salvation in John 3:1-8 when Nicodemus came to him by night:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 verses 5-8:
 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
--------------
John 1:12,13 defines this process:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

------------------
We are literally born into salvation by God.

After we are born of God, He adopts us into His family as His son or daughter.

Romans 8:14-16:
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

----------------------------
The above passage is so powerful, and packed with meaning. Adoption had a special meaning to the Romans. Slavery was very prevalent in those days. But when a slave was adopted, as a son, then this had a very special meaning and implied permanence. It would take a lot for a father to disown an adopted son, as the adopted son was to take the place of a natural son that they did not have.

God our Father adopts all who are born of the Spirit into His family. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit used this type of language to give us the assurance that this relationship with Him was meant to be permanent.

We can have such a wonderful relationship with our Father in Heaven. The term "Abba Father" means a very special relationship. It is not quite the equivalent of "Daddy", but it is a very special relationship.

We don't have to have a spirit of fear. That spirit is one of bondage like the slaves had.

I only ask you Ed, if you are truly born again, why do you have the fear, or uncertainty of what comes after death? In my next post, I will post some more evidence from scripture that one not fear death, if truly believing and trusting in Jesus.

Stan


Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 31, 2011, 11:45:10 PM
Just to continue a thought in the last post:

If we are adopted as His child, then with Paul in Romans 5:1,2 we can rejoice in this scripture
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


-------------------------------
Ed, how can you have the fear of waking up to the second death in the lake of fire? It just doesn't fit the passages presented above. Do you think your heavenly Father might burn you in light of the above if you are trusting in Him to save you?

 Jesus continues his discourse with Nicodemus in John 3:14-18:

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
--------------
What could be clearer than these words of Jesus? It is those who refuse to believe in Jesus that have the wrath of God to look forward to.

Jesus confirms this again in John 3:36:

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
---------------------
So, it is only those who refuse to believe on the Son, who will face His wrath on the day of judgment.

Notice how closely this verse parallels 1 John 5:11-13 which was cited in an earlier post:

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
---------------------------------

Notice how the above is confirmed by Jesus' own words in John 5:24

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
-----------------
Notice how our Lord puts this in the present tense. "hath everlasting life and will not come into condemnation". The only question is "Do we really believe this"?

John 6 is one of the most important chapters in the entire Bible regarding salvation, and specifically these verses in 37-40:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

--------------------------
Please just meditate on the above passages.

It is our Father' will, that all who believe in Jesus will be saved.

God did not spare His only Son, to make this possible. Do you think that the Father will be quick to cast us out from His presence in the light of the above passages?

John 10:27-30:
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30I and my Father are one.

---------------------------

This is one of the most powerful passages of scripture.

The only question is "Are we one of His sheep'? How, in the light of the above can one live in fear if you are truly His?

But some will object that all the scriptures presented above are conditional on something else we must do.

If we are truly born again, then the joy and confidence that the above scriptures present will produce a real passion for God and His Word.

Stan





Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 01, 2011, 04:21:54 PM
Is salvation unconditional or does salvation have conditions ?  

interesting question.

I propose a "scavenger hunt" of sorts  using several different Bible versions posted in this topic to look at Salvation's .......
1. promises
2, description's /explanations - enacted scenarios
3. cumulative terms - starting in Genesis > going to the end of  Revelation
4. warnings

Can a person be placed in the Lamb's Book of Life - yet be removed by the Lamb Himself under specified conditions ?  

What ever the Bible specifically and cumulatively says - Is teaching otherwise than what the Bible says - Truth - or Propaganda from Satan as he tries to win his war against God ?

I am at stake, not some megachurch rich pastor, or some wild eyed self appointed pastor wooing the ladies and playing a guitar while tanks invade the compound.   This is not to kiss up to the "28" or diminish the "28" but rather to find out what really IS there.      

1 Thessalonians 5:20  Despise not prophesyings.
Revelation 19:10...........: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

SOP will be used whenever it applies to supply the Ezra style sense and understanding of Texts, passages, concepts - especially concepts, as a "safety net to keep human interpretations to a minimum (especially mine ) requiring looking at the overall concept and searching same in Scripture and SOP.     Looking for absolutes of reality here - not followers.

Because both Scripture & SOP is the testifying of the Judge who decides MY salvation.

Acts 10:42  And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
2 Timothy 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
1 Peter 4:5  Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

Stan will you supply NIV verses to match the KJV verses, and will others supply other translations verses to match the KJV verses used ?
Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 01, 2011, 04:45:18 PM
Let salvation's scavenger hunt begin .

KJV - Genesis 2:

23  And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24  Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25  And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

KJV Genesis 3:
1
Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 01, 2011, 05:09:57 PM
( both naked not ashamed =   35  SOP hits )  > looking for concepts.......... sinlessness in Genesis chapter 2

Quote
 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly. Eccl. 1:17.  {CC 17.1}
     Adam and Eve both ate of the fruit, and obtained a knowledge which, had they obeyed God, they would never have had, --an experience in disobedience and disloyalty to God,--the knowledge that they were naked. The garment of innocence, a covering from God, which surrounded them, departed; and they supplied the place of this heavenly garment by sewing together fig-leaves for aprons.  {CC 17.2}
     This is the covering that the transgressors of the law of God have used since the days of Adam and Eve's disobedience. . . . The fig-leaves represent the arguments used to cover disobedience. . . .  {CC 17.3}
     But the nakedness of the sinner is not covered. . . .  {CC 17.4}
     Had Adam and Eve never disobeyed their Creator, had they remained in the path of perfect rectitude, they could have known and understood God. But when they listened to the voice of the tempter, and sinned against God, the light of the garments of heavenly innocence departed from them; and in parting with the garments of innocence, they drew about them the dark robes of ignorance of God. The clear and perfect light that had hitherto surrounded them had lightened everything they approached; but deprived of that heavenly light, the posterity of Adam could no longer trace the character of God in His created works.  {CC 17.5}
     If Adam and Eve had never touched the forbidden tree, the Lord would have imparted to them knowledge,--knowledge upon which rested no curse of sin, knowledge that would have brought them everlasting joy. . . .  {CC 17.6}
     Age after age, the curiosity of men has led them to seek for the tree of knowledge; and often they think they are plucking fruit most essential, when, like Solomon's research, they find it altogether vanity and nothingness in comparison with that science of true holiness which will open to them the gates of the city of God. The human ambition has been seeking for that kind of knowledge that will bring to them glory and self-exaltation and supremacy. Thus Adam and Eve were worked upon by Satan.  {CC 17.7}  

(Not ashamed) not showing up in the software search.      ? ?

( both naked ashamed = 0 SOP hits )

( naked ashamed = 9 SOP hits )

Another thing I just though of - only one church uses SOP, not Babylon, not Babylon's daughters.   Only the church spoken of in Revelation chapter's 1; 10; 12; 19.   In  Revelation chapter 1 John both bears record of it and is persecuted because of it.  Paul says the Church is gifted with it when he taught the Corinthians.  if God's voice is not in the house, how then can it be called His Church as an institution?

just a side tracked thought.
Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 01, 2011, 08:52:08 PM
( both naked not ashamed =   35  SOP hits )  > looking for concepts.......... sinlessness in Genesis chapter 2

(Not ashamed) not showing up in the software search.      ? ?

( both naked ashamed = 0 SOP hits )

( naked ashamed = 9 SOP hits )

Another thing I just thought of - only one church uses SOP, not Babylon, not Babylon's daughters.   Only the church spoken of in Revelation chapter's 1; 10; 12; 19.   In  Revelation chapter 1 John both bears record of it and is persecuted because of it.  Paul says the Church is gifted with it when he taught the Corinthians.  if God's voice is not in the house, how then can it be called His Church as an institution?

just a side tracked thought.
Ed, Stan has just returned to his regular hospital work schedule, so he may not be posting nearly as much or as often for awhile  as he recently was.

Regarding you statement about the presence of the Spirit of Prophecy, I agree with your point, but if I'm not mistaken, some of the Pentecostal denominations claim to have prophets. Also I heard the following story at camp meeting during a seminar given by Angel Rodriguez:

He was talking about meetings that he and other Adventist theologians  at one time had with theollogians with the Lutheran church. The purpose was to compare beliefs and to educate the Lutherans about what Adventists believe and teach. There was a lot of questions from the Lutherans about many aspects of Adventism, but none about Ellen White. He said he was anticipating an attack from them about her. Finally, to make sure that EGW was not left out of the discussion, Rodriguez brought her up himself, and pointed out that the Seventh-day Adventist church considers her to be a true prophet. As Rodriguez described their response, it was as though they shrugged and said, yes, we have had a few of them too, so what? Perhaps they believe Luther was a prophet, I don't know.
Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 01, 2011, 10:00:50 PM
Ed wrote:

SOP will be used whenever it applies to supply the Ezra style sense and understanding of Texts, passages, concepts - especially concepts, as a "safety net to keep human interpretations to a minimum (especially mine ) requiring looking at the overall concept and searching same in Scripture and SOP.     Looking for absolutes of reality here - not followers.
------------------------------------------------
Ed, I can find places where Ellen White would totally disagree with your above statement. You are using her as the final authority. She said to go to the Bible to come up with doctrine, and not use her writings.

This is what I did in my posts.

Ed, it appears that you are ignoring the points I made in my posts. I posted direct words from Jesus from the KJV that are as clear as can be. A child, even reading the KJV would find the blessed words of our Savior understandable. Why does the gospel have to be made so difficult?

Ed, I just would ask you to respond directly to my questions in the 2 or 3 previous posts. Instead, you are going off on tangents.
I feel very sad when I read some of what you wrote. It appears that you don't trust the KJV, either, as seemingly evidenced by the statement you made here:

Now in cultural language structure and semantics that loss in translation is minor, but in salvation and understanding God,  changes in God's message have the potential to point the mind and conscience somewhere off center of the message.  Once enough compounded interest has occurred, boundaries have been crossed that were not supposed to be crossed.

That is always a danger in translation work. Looking at all the texts and passages that talk about a topic or facets of the topic provide checks and balances especially when the topic has to perfectly fit into the larger plan of salvation perfectly with out contradicting it's self.  logically that would be some of the helps in translation work.    Known absolutes explain unknowns being studied out, because Scripture always agrees with it's self, self disagreements reveal either mistakes or faulty understanding of what is being read means

----------------------
Ed, if you take this statement to a logical conclusion, we could not possibly trust the Bible for any doctrine.

If you want to see what the NIV says, as you asked me to do, then all you have to do is go to:

 www.biblegateway.com

You can look up all Bible versions there.

Stan

Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 01, 2011, 10:57:19 PM
Ed wrote:

SOP will be used whenever it applies to supply the Ezra style sense and understanding of Texts, passages, concepts - especially concepts, as a "safety net to keep human interpretations to a minimum (especially mine ) requiring looking at the overall concept and searching same in Scripture and SOP.     Looking for absolutes of reality here - not followers.
------------------------------------------------
Ed, I can find places where Ellen White would totally disagree with your above statement. You are using her as the final authority. She said to go to the Bible to come up with doctrine, and not use her writings.

This is what I did in my posts.

Ed, it appears that you are ignoring the points I made in my posts. I posted direct words from Jesus from the KJV that are as clear as can be. A child, even reading the KJV would find the blessed words of our Savior understandable. Why does the gospel have to be made so difficult?

Ed, I just would ask you to respond directly to my questions in the 2 or 3 previous posts. Instead, you are going off on tangents.
I feel very sad when I read some of what you wrote. It appears that you don't trust the KJV, either, as seemingly evidenced by the statement you made here:

Now in cultural language structure and semantics that loss in translation is minor, but in salvation and understanding God,  changes in God's message have the potential to point the mind and conscience somewhere off center of the message.  Once enough compounded interest has occurred, boundaries have been crossed that were not supposed to be crossed.

That is always a danger in translation work. Looking at all the texts and passages that talk about a topic or facets of the topic provide checks and balances especially when the topic has to perfectly fit into the larger plan of salvation perfectly with out contradicting it's self.  logically that would be some of the helps in translation work.    Known absolutes explain unknowns being studied out, because Scripture always agrees with it's self, self disagreements reveal either mistakes or faulty understanding of what is being read means

----------------------
Ed, if you take this statement to a logical conclusion, we could not possibly trust the Bible for any doctrine.

If you want to see what the NIV says, as you asked me to do, then all you have to do is go to:

 www.biblegateway.com

You can look up all Bible versions there.

Stan


Stan, I can't speak for Ed, and those promises you posted are wonderful, but Ed did respond to them. He asked whether salvation was conditional. I think the question was in response to your post. Are thoe promises conditional, or unconditional, and if so, what are the conditions? Those are important questions.
Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 02, 2011, 04:01:21 PM
Stan, I can't speak for Ed, and those promises you posted are wonderful, but Ed did respond to them. He asked whether salvation was conditional. I think the question was in response to your post. Are thoe promises conditional, or unconditional, and if so, what are the conditions? Those are important questions.

I agree, Larry, these are very important questions. Jesus gives the conditions for salvation in the texts quoted previously from the book of John, and I will try to share my thoughts on this shortly. (I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I love to discuss this topic) :-)

Sorry, Ed, if I missed an important point in your response. My concern, Ed, was regarding your statement:

Death is freedom from what's coming and the " would I really please him, or let Him down as I so easily do" questions.   

Death is no more worries oiver bills, and knowing that time perseption between now and Jesus's call < be it first or second ressurrection> is only an instant after I stopped thinking.  If I burn I deserve it, He's doing all He can I can be a loose cannon in spirit and behaviour.

Death is the end of my maybe's and waking up is the start of God's yes' s and no's; the uncertainty puts the twinge into thoughts about dying.

-----------------------------
I posted a lot of texts that I was hoping would be helpful. These texts have given me such great comfort and hope through times of trial.

Those texts tell us that we need not have a spirit of fear or uncertainty, if we are truly born again and belong to Him. Terms like adoption have a lot of meaning in the context of the times Paul wrote the book of Romans. I was hoping to get your response to those texts as related to your honest expression of your doubts and fears. I wasn't intending to get into a heated discussion over doctrine per se.

However, the subject of the gospel and salvation has been my passion for the last 28 years, since I was truly born again by a miracle of God's grace, and I love to talk about it.

We have had many discussions on this topic before, but I never get tired of this subject.

So, I will be happy to post my views on the conditions of salvation and the wonder of God's grace in salvation, as I get time during this very busy week for me.

Soli Deo Gloria
Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 02, 2011, 05:36:14 PM
adoption by God's mercy through Jesus.     A majestic subject. When I seemingly went on a tangent searching for absolutes RE salvation - is it conditional or unconditional ?  

I am already convinced that salvation and adoption have conditions of occuring, and remaining in effect, this side of the seal of God and the close of probation.  Finding those in ink from Scripture & SOP will help me understand them, and clear away misconceptions  I may have.

But as I search Scripture I have a mind that naturally looks at dozens of angles of something rapidly, and to calm that tendency down and bring my focus into managability for better personal understanding - Jesus speaking through SOP - helps bring me back into boundries, and into harmony with Christ's explanations of Scripture .

Jesus is speaking through SOP, EGW is the messenger whom Jesus is using to communicate HIS work of educating & teaching through a human channel.    

I often need concepts explained in plain english, and since God speaking can deliver absolutes, and did so through Bible writers, Jesus is using EGW as His mouthpeice to educate and train me similiar to the post calvary 40 days in the upper room for the 120 disciples.

If folks think I am using SOP as the final answer for doctrine, I don't care, I have even been harassed before, which I am not saying you are doing, but SOP is the testimony of JESUS not EGW.    Scripture & SOP are two sides of the same supernatural coin from Heaven, I want both sides.  

 But I am glad you want me to cling to the doctrine of spiritual adoption of the believer through Jesus Christ.  Don't give up on that.

Searching the conditions of salvation and balancing God's statements of mercy hopefully will prevent lopsidedness of faith.

Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 03, 2011, 08:32:44 PM
my brain is tired .   I need gardening - got lots of sunshine today.
Title: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 03, 2011, 10:06:08 PM

Jesus is speaking through SOP, EGW is the messenger whom Jesus is using to communicate HIS work of educating & teaching through a human channel.    

I often need concepts explained in plain english, and since God speaking can deliver absolutes, and did so through Bible writers, Jesus is using EGW as His mouthpeice to educate and train me similiar to the post calvary 40 days in the upper room for the 120 disciples.

If folks think I am using SOP as the final answer for doctrine, I don't care, I have even been harassed before, which I am not saying you are doing, but SOP is the testimony of JESUS not EGW.    Scripture & SOP are two sides of the same supernatural coin from Heaven, I want both sides.  

Ed,
You are using Ellen White in a way that goes against the basic teachings of the SDA church, and of Ellen White herself in the following references:

"The Lord desires you to study your Bibles. He has not given any additional light to take the place of His Word. (Letter 130, 1901.)

Get Proofs From the Bible. In public labor do not make prominent, and quote that which Sister White has written, as authority to sustain your positions. To do this will not increase faith in the testimonies. Bring your evidences, clear and plain, from the Word of God. . (Letter 11, 1894.) . . .
-------------------
I have done a lot of research on the cults such as Mormonism and JW. They all claim to believe the Bible to a certain extent, however, the common thread of their beliefs comes down to a statement like "Well the Bible is quite difficult to understand, but, hey, just read these books, and they will explain what the Bible really says." I am sorry Ed, but I see a similar thinking in your posts.

Ed, I am getting the sense that after all of our discussion on Bible versions, that you don't really trust the KJV either as evidenced by your comments as quoted from a previous post where you wrote this:

Now in cultural language structure and semantics that loss in translation is minor, but in salvation and understanding God,  changes in God's message have the potential to point the mind and conscience somewhere off center of the message.  Once enough compounded interest has occurred, boundaries have been crossed that were not supposed to be crossed.

That is always a danger in translation work. Looking at all the texts and passages that talk about a topic or facets of the topic provide checks and balances especially when the topic has to perfectly fit into the larger plan of salvation perfectly with out contradicting it's self.  logically that would be some of the helps in translation work.    Known absolutes explain unknowns being studied out, because Scripture always agrees with it's self, self disagreements reveal either mistakes or faulty understanding of what is being read means.

---------------------------

Ed, if you take this statement to a logical conclusion, we could not possibly trust the Bible for any doctrine.

Stan
Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 03, 2011, 10:11:43 PM

Jesus defined the requirement for salvation in John 3:1-8 when Nicodemus came to him by night:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 verses 5-8:
 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
--------------
John 1:12,13 defines this process:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

------------------
We are literally born into salvation by God.

After we are born of God, He adopts us into His family as His son or daughter.

Romans 8:14-16:
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

----------------------------
The above passage is so powerful, and packed with meaning. Adoption had a special meaning to the Romans. Slavery was very prevalent in those days. But when a slave was adopted, as a son, then this had a very special meaning and implied permanence. It would take a lot for a father to disown an adopted son, as the adopted son was to take the place of a natural son that they did not have.

God our Father adopts all who are born of the Spirit into His family. Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit used this type of language to give us the assurance that this relationship with Him was meant to be permanent.

We can have such a wonderful relationship with our Father in Heaven. The term "Abba Father" means a very special relationship. It is not quite the equivalent of "Daddy", but it is a very special relationship.

We don't have to have a spirit of fear. That spirit is one of bondage like the slaves had.

I only ask you Ed, if you are truly born again, why do you have the fear, or uncertainty of what comes after death? In my next post, I will post some more evidence from scripture that one not fear death, if truly believing and trusting in Jesus.


Title: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 03, 2011, 10:21:06 PM

 Jesus continues his discourse with Nicodemus in John 3:14-18:

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
--------------
What could be clearer than these words of Jesus? It is those who refuse to believe in Jesus that have the wrath of God to look forward to.

Jesus confirms this again in John 3:36:

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
---------------------
So, it is only those who refuse to believe on the Son, who will face His wrath on the day of judgment.

Notice how closely this verse parallels 1 John 5:11-13 which was cited in an earlier post:

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 13These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
---------------------------------

Notice how the above is confirmed by Jesus' own words in John 5:24

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
-----------------
Notice how our Lord puts this in the present tense. "hath everlasting life and will not come into condemnation". The only question is "Do we really believe this"?

John 6 is one of the most important chapters in the entire Bible regarding salvation, and specifically these verses in 37-40:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

--------------------------
Please just meditate on the above passages.

It is our Father' will, that all who believe in Jesus will be saved.

God did not spare His only Son, to make this possible. Do you think that the Father will be quick to cast us out from His presence in the light of the above passages?

John 10:27-30:
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30I and my Father are one.

---------------------------

This is one of the most powerful passages of scripture.

The only question is "Are we one of His sheep'? How, in the light of the above can one live in fear if you are truly His?

If we are truly born again, then the joy and confidence that the above scriptures present will produce a real passion for God and His Word.

-------------------------

And if we are truly born again, we will desire to do the Father's will and desire to obey all He commands. However, obedience is the fruit of salvation, but not the root of salvation. I will explain more what I mean by this soon.

Ed, I would appreciate it if you would respond to these texts and the questions I posed regarding them.

Do you believe that Jesus made the statements quoted above, and are they reliable?

Stan
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: newbie on April 04, 2011, 09:05:36 PM
I'm confused by the title?  Or is it something I'm not understanding?  :?
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 04, 2011, 10:52:22 PM
I'm confused by the title?  Or is it something I'm not understanding?  :?
Newbie, I split the topic off from Changing the Bible after the posts between Ed and Stan moved in the direction of the assurance of salvation when Ed shared that he has sometimes had fears and doubts about his ultimate salvation. I think they plan to continue this discussion.
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: restoretruth on April 04, 2011, 11:44:31 PM
Newbie, I split the topic off from Changing the Bible after the posts between Ed and Stan moved in the direction of the assurance of salvation when Ed shared that he has sometimes had fears and doubts about his ultimate salvation. I think they plan to continue this discussion.
Larry,
 Do you suppose Newbie might be referring to the typo in the title? I don't understand
Assutance  either! :wink:
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 06, 2011, 10:57:55 AM
part 1 - 5k limit
Starting responce to the texts about believing.

To biblically believe is to hear with the conscience and follow and enter into and abide in - and obey - what is set forth to believe.   Without that Biblically believing condemnation comes.   ( preferably first to the individual conscience )

Now that the power outage is over and internet access is restored -  I am back. 

Obedience is the result and evidence of conversion.   

Obedience is putting one's self in position to receive mercy, not generating the mercy in the first place.   That statement I just made about positioning and mercy is based upon statements higher holier than Bible writting prophets of EGW, rather a direct quote from the engraving finger of Jesus Christ in stone.

Quote
   Exodus 20:6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Psalms 25:10  All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Daniel 9:4  And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Jude 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Luke 6:
47  Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48  He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49  But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.> Revelation 2:5 > Matthew 10:33

John 14:
23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 06, 2011, 10:59:35 AM
conclusion - 5 k - limit

Revelation 3:
19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

How does Jesus rebuke and chasten me ?

John 16:
7
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: newbie on April 06, 2011, 02:13:38 PM
Larry,
 Do you suppose Newbie might be referring to the typo in the title? I don't understand
Assutance  either! :wink:
yes
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 06, 2011, 06:16:53 PM
Larry,
 Do you suppose Newbie might be referring to the typo in the title? I don't understand
Assutance  either! :wink:
Restoretruth, I must have missed your post. There must be something wrong with my kepyad.  :-D
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 07, 2011, 03:44:22 AM
If I have no peace it is simply because in my present condition I can not receive peace, untill reconverted.   Conversion is progressive, it is the spiritual translating from the heart language of Satan's character and life,  to the heart language of God's character and life.  Translating starts with a book and works from page 1 toward the conclusion of the book.  In that, conversion is no different - it is an ongoing progressing or retrograding work.


Ed,
Please go back to John 3, and read the entire chapter, and see if what Jesus is saying matches what you are saying.

Jesus uses the term "born again". Changing the language to conversion or reconversion is not helpful, as these are not Biblical terms.

Jesus says "Ye must be born again", not Ye must be converted. The word "conversion" implies a human element to the process.

Being born again means a miraculous birth wrought by God Himself:

 John 1:12,13 is very specific

John 1:12,13:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--------------------
If we are born of God, this goes far beyond the meaning of conversion. A physical human birth happens once. Our new birth wrought by the Spirit of God happens once. But, being born again, God brings us to maturity over a lifetime. Sanctification is a work of a lifetime, but being born again is a one time process. We are  born into His family, and in the whole book of John, Jesus gives us the blessed assurance that we are secure in Him.

Stan
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 07, 2011, 08:38:12 AM
Ed,
Please go back to John 3, and read the entire chapter, and see if what Jesus is saying matches what you are saying.

Jesus uses the term "born again". Changing the language to conversion or reconversion is not helpful, as these are not Biblical terms.

Jesus says "Ye must be born again", not Ye must be converted. The word "conversion" implies a human element to the process.

Being born again means a miraculous birth wrought by God Himself:

 John 1:12,13 is very specific

John 1:12,13:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--------------------
If we are born of God, this goes far beyond the meaning of conversion. A physical human birth happens once. Our new birth wrought by the Spirit of God happens once. But, being born again, God brings us to maturity over a lifetime. Sanctification is a work of a lifetime, but being born again is a one time process. We are  born into His family, and in the whole book of John, Jesus gives us the blessed assurance that we are secure in Him.

Stan
Stan, I agree that God does not treat His people like a yo yo, and removes our names from the book of life each time we have a bad thought, or commit some sinful behavior, and then replaces our names iwhen we repent. Parents do not disown their children every time they misbehave. God is more merciful than human parents.
Sanctification is the process whereby God removes our rough spots so that we may truly represent Him. He does that work as long as we are willing to serve Him and do His will, even though we trip and stumble on the path at times. That is the good news of the Bible and there are a number of very clear EGW quotes that confirm this.
However, that in no way serves as a license or excuse for sin. There will be no place in heaven for those who refuse to give up their favorite sins and idols. To think that we can continue in sin and at last be saved is a fatal presumption.

 Also the word converted and the concept of conversion is certainly biblical and is used by Jesus Himself.

(3) And said, "Verily I say unto you. Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God." (Mt. 18:3) Jesus said that to His disciples who were His most devoted followers and had been with Him for a period of time.
Alsp, Mt 13:15, Mark 14:12, and His famous words to Peter, "and when thou art converted, strengthen the brethren." (Luke 22:32)
There are more places in the NT as well as the OT where the word converted is used.
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: newbie on April 07, 2011, 10:50:05 AM
Assutance of Salvation

def.  the reality of salvation

 :-D
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 07, 2011, 10:57:46 AM
Assutance of Salvation

def.  the reality of salvation

 :-D
Thank you Newbie. If I win the Pulitzer prize for literature, I will share it with you>  :-D
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Ed Sutton on April 07, 2011, 05:35:11 PM
Stan,

Excellent suggestion - I will explore John chapter 3, and dig for my own needs ( which removes mere academia motivations and gets closer and closer to whole heart searching - God pays close atention to anyone searching Him & His things with their whole heart.)

Warnings and promises to give me boundries of heart / mind

Jeremiah 3:10  And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

I can be my own worst enemy like Judah comforting herself upon partial union of heart only.

********************************
promises to consider and explore and trust in enough to venture upon and apply.

Jeremiah 24:7  And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 32:41  Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

Deuteronomy 4:29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Jeremiah 29:13  And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

James 1:
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James 4:
7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9  Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

SOP is a great help to explain concepts to me, before I have time to pontificate inside my own mind and go off on tangents which can easily be wrong, and require painful unlearning , time, energy,  to recover from, then get back into harmony with the revealed testifying of Jesus on whatever matter in question.   

If I spoke Inuit, I would ask the "Eskimo Prophet"  (phonetic sp)  manilich whom Gabriel taught,  if I spoke South American dialects I would ask the Amazon River Chief Gabriel taught,  If I spoke pygmy clicks, whistles, grunts - I would ask the "little bushman" whom Gabriel taught and sent after the "three books that are really nine".     But I only speak english, so I ask Jesus, and He directs me to the english speaking messenger whom Gabriel taught.

( "born again"  anew = 7 SOP hits ) 

( "born again" =   351  SOP Hits )

( conversion    "new birth"   =  5 SOP hits ) 

(  "born again"   "new birth"   = 23 SOP hits ) 

( "this is the new birth"  =  1 SOP hit )
***************************************

Romans 14:5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Jesus sees that I have been damaged such that I need His special helps , that Paul speaks about.

1st Cor 1:
3  Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4  I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5  That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6  Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7  So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8  Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 07, 2011, 11:15:59 PM

Also the word converted and the concept of conversion is certainly biblical and is used by Jesus Himself.

(3) And said, "Verily I say unto you. Except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God." (Mt. 18:3) Jesus said that to His disciples who were His most devoted followers and had been with Him for a period of time.
Alsp, Mt 13:15, Mark 14:12, and His famous words to Peter, "and when thou art converted, strengthen the brethren." (Luke 22:32)
There are more places in the NT as well as the OT where the word converted is used.


Here is what I posted on another thread tonight:

Larry,
Your points are well taken.  :-)  I will admit that the word conversion is in the texts that you mentioned.

Both terms are Biblical, but they mean different things.

Conversion is a general term. Being born of God, or born again, as in John 1:12,13 and John 3 is a very specific term, unique only to Christianity. There can be no genuine conversion to Christ, if God does not do the miraculous work of the new birth. When we are born again as a new babe in Christ, we then start the process of being more completely converted. When Paul was miraculously regenerated on the road to Damascus, he was born into the family of God, but he required a long period of teaching before he became completely converted. This teaching was done by Jesus Himself in the desert of Arabia as Galatians 1 attests.

True conversion will follow the miraculous new birth. I am more completely convinced of the truth of the Bible now than when I was given a new birth in Christ over 28 years ago.

The book of John was written much later than the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The synoptics chronicle some of the specific teachings of Jesus warning the Jews of the impending destruction of Jerusalem.

The emphasis in the book of John is more directed to Christians. That is why I believe it is significant how the first chapter of John gets right to the point of who Jesus is, and in verses 12 and 13 speaks very specific to the new birth:

John 1:12,13:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
-------------
Without this miraculous birth, there can be no genuine conversion.

Then in the entire chapter of John 3, Jesus gets right to the point with Nicodemus about the necessity of the new birth to be in the kingdom. He then spends the rest of the chapter giving very specific teaching about salvation.

One can be converted to any specific ideology. False conversions to Christianity occur when there is no miraculous new birth.

But, I have noticed that some just don't like to use the term "born again". But just because the term has been abused so often doesn't mean that it is not valid, and not Biblical.

Intellectual SDA's of the Graham Maxwell type will not use this term. Most Roman Catholics and mainstream Protestant churches also turn up their noses at using this term. They don't want to be associated with those Bible thumping Baptists who emphasize the necessity of the new birth all the time.

Stan
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 07, 2011, 11:49:37 PM
Stan, I agree that God does not treat His people like a yo yo, and removes our names from the book of life each time we have a bad thought, or commit some sinful behavior, and then replaces our names iwhen we repent. Parents do not disown their children every time they misbehave. God is more merciful than human parents.
Sanctification is the process whereby God removes our rough spots so that we may truly represent Him. He does that work as long as we are willing to serve Him and do His will, even though we trip and stumble on the path at times. That is the good news of the Bible and there are a number of very clear EGW quotes that confirm this.
However, that in no way serves as a license or excuse for sin. There will be no place in heaven for those who refuse to give up their favorite sins and idols. To think that we can continue in sin and at last be saved is a fatal presumption.

Larry, I don't think I have ever said that a person who is truly born again will sin with presumption. If he sins, he hates that sin, and comes to God admitting and confessing his sin, not to retain his place in the family, but to restore fellowship with the Father that he sinned against.

The term "adoption" is such a strong term in Romans 8:14-16:

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

----------------------
When we are adopted by God into His family, He intends that relationship to be permanent.  He will make every provision to guarantee that He will preserve us. Yes, it is theoretically possible to walk away from this relationship. If a son becomes rebellious to a point that he is joined to idols, then that relationship will be broken. A human father will also disown a son who reaches a certain point of rebellion.

But when you read passages of scripture such as John 6, and John 10, we have to know that this relationship won't be broken easily.

John 6:37-40:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
---------------------

Notice that it is God's will that everyone who believes in Jesus will have everlasting life.

John 10: 27-30:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30 I and my Father are one.
-----------
Based on the above text, how easy do you think it is for Satan to take one of the sheep away?
Sometimes, I have seen people give Satan more power than God.

The prodigal son wandered a long way from the fold to a far country, but his father did not forsake him. He was brought back into fellowship immediately when he returned, and a big party was thrown in his honor.

Truly born again children can wander a  long way from God, but God will always try to bring his lost sheep home as illustrated by the parable of the lost sheep where there were 99 sheep in the fold, but the Shepherd went out to the rugged hillside to bring back His lost sheep.

These texts are not designed to make us complacent or careless, but to be able to rest in confidence in the care of our Good Shepherd.

Stan
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 08, 2011, 12:05:23 AM
It's not God I don't trust,  it's me that I don't trust.   At times my heart and mind .....is not Faith, diligence, virtue, grace, peacefullness, desiring to know God, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, Agape agapous Philio driven .....then the life always follows the affections and desires of the heart and mind ........................... unless it educates it's self to operate on faith instead of feelings.

I apostatized from God in the early to mid 80's and was not brought back till the start of the first Gulf war autumn of 1990.   My candlestick had been removed, just like Solomon's had.  I had been trained at wildwood 1970-72 at Wildwood as a believer and a missionary.  

The apostasy did enormus spiritual damage to me, and less extreme than Nebuchadnezzar's case, only a portion of my mind had been removed.  The part that Biblically (knew) was married to God, because that's what I persistantly  desired and acted on.

Before Wiildwood God in 1970 at my initial baptism upon becoming an SDA Christian believer, had removed Satan's candle from my mind and put His Own there instead.  All my wisdom and links and skills from Satan as a warlock were gone, and like Jordan when the priests carrying the ark - it all stopped like a giant thick metal plate had been put down between my past life and such that went with it as a warlock, and my new life.

Then in the early - mid 80's, I decide to set my affections upon things God's boundries had been protecting me from, and in time started crossing boundries even though now NOT as a warlock.  In time God was forced to fulfill His warning in Revelation .

Revelation 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


Ed,
Thanks for sharing your story above. In light of the parables of the Prodigal Son, and the Lost Sheep, it is very possible that you were truly born again even when you apostatized. Look how far down the road the Prodigal went. However, the Father created a hunger in his heart to come back home. He will work actively to bring back and welcome any lost or wandering sheep home, and doesn't set any conditions on welcoming them back.

None of us can trust ourselves. We must put our trust in the Good Shepherd, who has promised to give us eternal life as in the texts quoted above.

Stan
Title: Re: Assutance of Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 08, 2011, 09:21:19 AM
Here is what I posted on another thread tonight:

Larry,
Your points are well taken.  :-)  I will admit that the word conversion is in the texts that you mentioned.

Both terms are Biblical, but they mean different things.

Conversion is a general term. Being born of God, or born again, as in John 1:12,13 and John 3 is a very specific term, unique only to Christianity. There can be no genuine conversion to Christ, if God does not do the miraculous work of the new birth. When we are born again as a new babe in Christ, we then start the process of being more completely converted. When Paul was miraculously regenerated on the road to Damascus, he was born into the family of God, but he required a long period of teaching before he became completely converted. This teaching was done by Jesus Himself in the desert of Arabia as Galatians 1 attests.

True conversion will follow the miraculous new birth. I am more completely convinced of the truth of the Bible now than when I was given a new birth in Christ over 28 years ago.

The book of John was written much later than the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The synoptics chronicle some of the specific teachings of Jesus warning the Jews of the impending destruction of Jerusalem.

The emphasis in the book of John is more directed to Christians. That is why I believe it is significant how the first chapter of John gets right to the point of who Jesus is, and in verses 12 and 13 speaks very specific to the new birth:

John 1:12,13:
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
-------------
Without this miraculous birth, there can be no genuine conversion.

Then in the entire chapter of John 3, Jesus gets right to the point with Nicodemus about the necessity of the new birth to be in the kingdom. He then spends the rest of the chapter giving very specific teaching about salvation.

One can be converted to any specific ideology. False conversions to Christianity occur when there is no miraculous new birth.

But, I have noticed that some just don't like to use the term "born again". But just because the term has been abused so often doesn't mean that it is not valid, and not Biblical.

Intellectual SDA's of the Graham Maxwell type will not use this term. Most Roman Catholics and mainstream Protestant churches also turn up their noses at using this term. They don't want to be associated with those Bible thumping Baptists who emphasize the necessity of the new birth all the time.

Stan
Stan, I whole heartedl;y agree with the term "born again," but the same thing you say about "born again" being abused, also applies to the word "conversion." Just because there are false conversions does not negate its use. Jesus used the word in exactly the same way that he used "born again." What else could the term mean in the Bible? There is no instance in the Bible where a person was said to be falsely "converted." In the case of Simon Magus, he was baptized, but he was not said to be "converted" or "born again."

I understand how you see a difference in the meaning of the terms, I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware, yours is a unique rather than a common view.

In todays usage both of those terms may have different connotations depending on the context and the intention of the speaker or writer. It is acceptable to use either word IMHO.  

BTW, In my earlier post I did not intend to imply that you advocate presumtious sinning.
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 08, 2011, 04:50:08 PM
Not everyone has the same dramatic experience that many describe as being born again. There are those who have an intense emotional feeling when they take their stand for Christ. The danger is that they may believe that a certain feeling is necessary for the experience to be valid. That belief is promoted by some. Especially in certain denominations. Others have more of an intellectual acceptance of the truth, along with a decision and a determination to follow Jesus as their Savior, based on their faith in His promise that they are adopted into the family of God. They base their standing with God purely on faith rather than a certain feeling that they may or may not have had.
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 09, 2011, 02:30:25 PM
Not everyone has the same dramatic experience that many describe as being born again. There are those who have an intense emotional feeling when they take their stand for Christ. The danger is that they may believe that a certain feeling is necessary for the experience to be valid. That belief is promoted by some. Especially in certain denominations. Others have more of an intellectual acceptance of the truth, along with a decision and a determination to follow Jesus as their Savior, based on their faith in His promise that they are adopted into the family of God. They base their standing with God purely on faith rather than a certain feeling that they may or may not have had.

This is very true, Larry. Experience is not proof of anything.

There are some who have always believed that they loved the Lord and have had a heart for him. They can't remember any time they can point to as to when they were born again. It may be while they were very young, in some cases, but you know it when you meet them and talk to them that they are Christians.

There is something special when you go about interacting with people on a daily basis, on how one can recognize a person that is born again, and a true Christian. There is just something about the love of Christ that shines through.

You can tell it sometimes by reading a person's posting on the internet for any length of time. You can tell whether they have a genuine heart for God, and show the fruit of the Spirit when they write. I am not saying you can judge in all cases, but in general I think its true.

Of course, only God knows for sure if a person is truly born again and one of His sheep.

Stan
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 11, 2011, 01:59:27 PM
Does the Bible promise that we can have assurance of salvation now? Is it presumptuous to be able to say that we are saved?

Most Roman Catholics I interact with say that a person cannot be sure they are saved. They will say something like "I hope so".

The book of 1 John was written specifically for the purpose of giving us guidelines by which we can know that we have eternal life.

1 John 5:11-13:

 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
-----------------
Is this not definite proof that we can know if we are saved or not? And if not, why not?

"He that hath the Son hath life"  This is written in the present tense. "that ye have eternal life" is also present tense

This is very strong evidence.

Then in Ephesians 1 (the entire chapter), but in verse 7: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace"  Again the present tense.

And again the very testimony of Jesus in His own words in John 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
------------
Again, the present tense is evident in Jesus' statement. Jesus words would have no meaning if we could not now have that assurance by believing and trusting in Him.

Of course Jesus and John both make it plain that if we are truly born again, and have a genuine belief in the Son, then we will keep His commandments and love our neighbors as a result of that salvation, but at no time are we left to doubt God's promises that we have eternal life.

Stan
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: GraceVessel on April 11, 2011, 05:34:00 PM
I am saved because of who I know... not what I do.
What motivates what I do ...determines what relationships I honor and cherish.

Having a saving knowledge of Jesus dying in my behalf, and the efficacies of His grace, opens to me a newer and deeper appreciation of His character...
Not mine..
My being vulnerable, allows Jesus to write His laws on my heart.  I don't hold the pen... and I dont keep my own law. He keeps it in me.

Since I trust in His merits, I partake of His marvelous grace.  I choose to follow the commands of Jesus which include the Ten Commandments along with the true spirit of the law.

Born again, means... simply giving my heart ... being vulnerable. Conversion, is the process of being born again... but they are not the same thing. My conversion towards a deeper and deeper walk with God ...
it's transitive.  I am only born again once... the conversion to a deeper and deeper walk is continous and the part of sanctification that I have a choice in making myself vulnerable ... for His leading.

This is my understanding of the true gospel.  The truth keeps me... i dont "keep" the truth...although I abide in it... because my complete trust is in Jesus.

with kind regards,


Gracevessel
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 12, 2011, 02:16:45 AM
Adventist Today has a brand new article by Melissa Howell about this topic of assurance, and how SDA's view this at this link:

http://www.atoday.com/content/still-wondering-whether-we
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 12, 2011, 02:24:13 AM
Let me try that link again, as the one in the above post doesn't work:

http://www.atoday.com/content/still-wondering-whether-we
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Raven on April 12, 2011, 03:42:23 AM


Born again, means... simply giving my heart ... being vulnerable. Conversion, is the process of being born again... but they are not the same thing.
with kind regards,


Gracevessel

Why are you convinced that there is a distinction?  I don't want to argue semantics, but I've always understood them as being synonymous.  Conversion and new birth refer to the same thing:  the beginning of a new life.
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: GraceVessel on April 12, 2011, 04:44:52 AM
Born again - we cast our hopes and our lot with the guidance of Jesus as the Captain of our ship...

Conversion, is continual... a process that describes our Sanctification... a closer abiding in the vine.
We become more tightly engrafted, we see more of the heavenly reality of what God's purpose is for our life....
in real terms...

I am not ... born again over and over and over.  Otherwise... my constant worry, and anxiety... is am I saved. (Can I trust God with my life?).

If you want to argue semantics... then discuss what it means to be born again? How do you evidence that?  :)  ... I have my evidence...

What's yours? (SIC)... I continue to renew my mind and allow God, by His marvelous grace, to melt my heart, and draw me into a closer abiding trust,,, that includes my heart response (i am continually converted to forsake sin, and trust in His grace). 

If you focus the meaning of both of the terms to pre-(born again, conversion)... then we are all talking on the left side of the equation.  Salvation is a free gift... you don't earn it... but your behavior reflects where you place your heart.


Jesus fill's up broken cisterns of peoples lives all the time and restores them.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 12, 2011, 12:36:13 PM
One more time for the AT article on assurance of salvation


http://www.atoday.com/content/still-wondering-whether-we
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 12, 2011, 12:44:39 PM
I don't know why the link doesn't work after posting, but works during preview, but anyway, I will copy and paste the article.

"Make a place for me, Mommy!" my son worriedly begs as he approaches me, his face full of concern and stress.  It doesn't matter where I am sitting -- whether in our plush chaise lounge, the small wingback by the fire, or in a single wooden chair at the table -- whenever he wants to sit on my lap, he immediately starts to worry that there may not be enough room for him.  He is afraid there is not a place for him here, with me.  He feels doubtful about whether or not I will be able to make one, worried that their will not in fact be space for his little body.  His tiny blonde eyebrows furrow together in a frown as he repeats his earnest request multiple times, "Mommy, is there a place for me? Make a place for me!"
 
What he doesn't know is that, no matter the seat and no matter the day, there will always be a place on my lap for him, for as long as he wants one.  I would sit in any uncomfortable position imaginable or contort my body into all sorts of possible twists, for the sole joy of holding my little boy on my lap -- and gladly remain that way for hours.  He is concerned there might not be a place for him, but what he doesn't understand is that I would do ANYTHING at all to ensure a place for him with me.

I think my son is already learning a very Adventist way to approach God.  Though we claim to be a people who believe in grace, the fears of legalism can still be found running rampant in us.  Ask a group of any ten people in this church if they are saved -- especially any ten teenagers -- and often almost half of them will admit that they do not feel saved, clarifying that they feel this way because they have not yet cleaned up their lives.  We know in our heads that we are saved by grace, but for some reason, Adventists are still afraid of measuring works.  Maybe we haven't done enough, changed enough, given up enough.  Maybe there won't be a place for us.  Salvation is by grace through faith, but faith without works is dead, so maybe -- maybe our works aren't enough...
Quite a few years ago now, we learned from our Valuegenesis studies that the assurance of grace was one of the largest problem areas in our teenagers and young people.  They admitted to believing we are saved by grace, but also admitted to feeling like they had to work their way into heaven.  There was a blatant discrepancy.  Ten years later, when Valuegenesis conducted and published another study, the numbers had gotten better - more kids were understanding grace -- but there were still so many who didn't believe there was a place for them.

I've been told by older folks that this legalism is in our church because of "what happened in the fifties," or something like that.  Apparently, our church went through a time of being outrageously focused on works and behavior and rules, and this overshadowed grace in a big way.  Today, many fear we are swinging the opposite direction -- we are so intent on forgetting works and uplifting grace instead that we are in danger of making it seem cheap, easy, and free (it is free, by the way).
-----------------
To be continued

Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 12, 2011, 12:46:33 PM
Article by Melissa Howell concluded on this post:

What I am wondering is, if these strands of legalism, this fear of being lost and this misunderstanding of salvation -- will these things always be a part of our church?  What is still perpetuating them...Why are they still here?

One clarification that might be helpful to teach -- as often as we can -- is the difference between justification and sanctification.  When we accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice in our place, we are justified before God as if we are as righteous as He is.  After this, after salvation, we continue to grow in our walk with Jesus for the rest of our lives -- that's sanctification.  This is the place where we choose to stop eating little shrimps, stop lusting after our married co-workers, start having a more consistent devotional life, and so on.  We try to live out the Ten Commandments -- keep Sabbath, clear out idols, stop stealing music off the internet, stop hating people.   My professor Sylvester Case at Union College defined the Ten Commandments to us as "the standard of living for saved people."  Notice the order there:  We change because we want to, in grateful response to already being saved.  Maybe we forget this order?

Even with all of this in mind, sometimes I wonder if it all doesn't just come down to the possibility that we have an inaccurate picture of God.  When this church strives to apply the scriptures into practical-life do's and don'ts, do we somehow come to see Jesus as only a God of do's and don'ts?  When we call sinners to leave their evil habits so they can enjoy the lives of freedom that Christ has made possible for us, do we instead hear that we aren't saved because of our habits?  Somehow, do we still feel like we have to beg and plead and prod God, "Please!  Make a place for me!!"

If so, we have forgotten perhaps the greatest core truth of Who God is:  That He would stop at nothing to see us saved.  He would die a horrific death and suffer unimaginable agony and loss, sparing no expense to Himself, just for the possibility and the promise of our company.  For as long as we want it, there is a place in heaven for us, thanks to Jesus.   I'm thinking of the thief on the cross.... "Remember me when you come....make a place for me..."  And Jesus' answer, in short: "Okay. Done."
I know -- that sounds too easy -- yeah, I'm a cradle Adventist too.  I'm afraid to believe it can be that simple.  But people...what if it is?
--------------------------------------------------------

Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: newbie on April 12, 2011, 12:53:49 PM
One more time for the AT article on assurance of salvation


http://www.atoday.com/content/still-wondering-whether-we
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Raven on April 12, 2011, 05:10:35 PM


Conversion, is continual... a process that describes our Sanctification... a closer abiding in the vine.
We become more tightly engrafted, we see more of the heavenly reality of what God's purpose is for our life....
in real terms...



with kind regards,

Gracevessel

Hmm . . .  I wonder if Peter would agree?  After being baptized by John the Baptist, and following Jesus for 3 1/2 years (during which time one assumes that he had been born again/converted), Jesus said to him (on the night before the crucifixion), "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."  I gather, from this text, at least, that conversion sometimes needs to be repeated.  That doesn't sound "continual" to me.  If the case of David is any example, we need to be reconverted whenever we enter a state of rebellion.  How can we claim to be converted when we are living in sin, as was David?  How could Peter claim to be converted when He denied Christ?  The fact is, he needed to repent and be converted again, and that is why Jesus said what He did.  That sounds a lot like what Peter told the crowds on the day of Pentecost:  "Repent and be baptized."  Repentance and conversion are nearly synonymous.  The Greek word metanoeo can be translated either way.  I would even go further and say that if one has gone down the rebellious road of king David, he must be born again, even though he may have previously done so.  He was living in open sin, and he knew it.  In a sense this is a denial of one's previous conversion experience, similar to Peter denying Christ.
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: newbie on April 12, 2011, 05:17:57 PM
sanctified does not mean that the person does not sin...

think of Moses...  he did so well until he struck the rock twice
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: GraceVessel on April 12, 2011, 05:51:11 PM
Raven, you can stay left of the equation, and I respect that.  However you slice n dice the "semantics" of the two words or phrases or motifs, or...
... it still remains that you are justified with Christ when you turn your life over to him... (born again)... and as you walk in a walk of faith you "remove" things from your life... "cast them out" of your life... because your Sanctified walk with God... "converts" you or thru the process of a closer analysis of your motives, and by abiding with Jesus... you fill convicted to remove other things, thoughts, motives, feelings,,, over to God.... that's a continued conversion...

I for one am not going to go down the SAVED, lost, SAVED, lost, SAVED, lost, SAVED, lost, SAVED, lost, SAVED, lost, SAVED, lost,  yo-yo go round.  I trust that Jesus will let me know when my motives are wrong, and most of all, by His Spirit... bring me into aware spiritual state of mind.. so that I can listen to His voice... that includes all parts of my life as I continue to be converted to a deeper abiding love and trust in Him.

If you wanna bring Peter or Paul into this discussion... since you intonate that I am disagreeing with them... Paul actually states that he was sanctified in the present tense... that sounds like assurance to me ... I have fought the good fight... I pray that one day my conversion experience... daily mirrors the dependence he had in Jesus.


I have assurance that Jesus loves me. Even during my wifes ordeal.  It's really obvious to me those that are solely and specifically focused on legislating other's thoughts and behavior.  I speak from my experience.  Wrong or right ... i take responsibility for what I post.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 13, 2011, 03:34:34 AM
Hmm . . .  I wonder if Peter would agree?  After being baptized by John the Baptist, and following Jesus for 3 1/2 years (during which time one assumes that he had been born again/converted), Jesus said to him (on the night before the crucifixion), "when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren."  I gather, from this text, at least, that conversion sometimes needs to be repeated.  That doesn't sound "continual" to me.  If the case of David is any example, we need to be reconverted whenever we enter a state of rebellion.  How can we claim to be converted when we are living in sin, as was David?  How could Peter claim to be converted when He denied Christ?  The fact is, he needed to repent and be converted again, and that is why Jesus said what He did.  That sounds a lot like what Peter told the crowds on the day of Pentecost:  "Repent and be baptized."  Repentance and conversion are nearly synonymous.  The Greek word metanoeo can be translated either way.  I would even go further and say that if one has gone down the rebellious road of king David, he must be born again, even though he may have previously done so.  He was living in open sin, and he knew it.  In a sense this is a denial of one's previous conversion experience, similar to Peter denying Christ.

Hi Raven,
 I could be wrong, but where is it recorded in scripture that Peter was baptized by John the Baptist?

I would submit that Peter was not truly born again until after his grievous sin of denying Christ. That experience broke him and brought him to his knees. He was bitterly disappointed that night, and was so relieved when Jesus rose from the dead.

David in Psalm 51:11,12:
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Notice that David prays to restore the joy of his salvation, but not restore my salvation. This may appear to be semantical nit-picking, but every word of scripture is inspired and so I think it is possible that a backslidden and repentant David was restored to a salvation that he already had. But I won't argue this point too strongly.

I think that the new birth, or being born again, or literally "born from above" as in John 3 is a unique experience separate from the ongoing conversion experience. The gospel of John was written with an emphasis to Christians. Jesus was very specific in John 3:3-7:

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
---------
Granted, as Larry pointed out in an earlier post, Jesus used the term conversion in other places. But he did not tell Nicodemus that he needed to be converted, but that he needed to be born again. Jesus introduced this uniquely Christian concept in the gospel of John.

Actually this concept was introduced in John 1:12,13:

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
----------------
Once we are born of God, or born again, then the conversion process can truly begin.

Paul was born again on the road to Damascus, but had to unlearn all of his strict Pharisaical ideas when he was taught by Jesus in the Arabian desert. He became the most thoroughly converted man, but it did not happen overnight.

Conversion is a general term that can apply to those being changed or converted to any particular ideology.

The new birth is a very important concept and is basic to Christian doctrine.

Stan
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: newbie on April 13, 2011, 12:17:14 PM
you are welcome Stan
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 13, 2011, 01:08:10 PM
[url=http://www.atoday.com/content/still-wondering-whether-we
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: newbie on April 13, 2011, 07:58:02 PM
Thank you Newbie for your help in posting that article. Sorry, that I didn't acknowledge it sooner  :-)

Stan

God Bless,
newbie  :-D
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: ejclark on April 15, 2011, 10:24:34 AM
Article by Melissa Howell
Interesting article.  I wonder if the majority of Adventists believe this way?  If so, it would explain to me why what is going on.
.......sometimes I wonder if it all doesn't just come down to the possibility that we have an inaccurate picture of God.
Matt. 7:20-27 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in they name have cast out devils? and in they name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

Obviously it would be important to have an accurate picture of God and an accurate picture of what scripture teaches.
When we accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice in our place, we are justified before God as if we are as righteous as He is.  After this, after salvation
A part of this is correct, another part of this is not.  The author equates salvation with justification and detaches salvation from sanctification.  That is not what the Bible teaches.  The Bible does not teach that everything was finished at the cross.  Sanctification is just as important a part of salvation as justification is.  They cannot be separated as the author here has done.  There was more to the sanctuary services than just the Lamb being slain.  Praying over the Lamb, confessing sins, slaying the Lamb; that is justification.  The blood of the Lamb being put on the different alters, taken into the tabernacle, the blood sprinkled before the veil, the Lamb being burnt on the alter; that is sanctification.  It all is the process of salvation.

On another topic grace is discussed.  This is one word that has been used totally in a lopsided way today.  Thus "cheap grace".  As grace does mean unwarranted favor, good will, mercy; it also means more.  As in the power God makes available to us to live according to His Word.
Eph. 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace (mercy/power) of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power."
Eph. 4:7 "But unto every one of us is given grace (mercy/power) according to the measure of the gift of Christ."
2 Tim. 2:1 "Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace (mercy/power) that is in Christ Jesus."
Eph. 2:8 "For by grace (mercy/power) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
Heb. 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace (mercy/power) of God should taste death for every man."
I'm afraid to believe it can be that simple.  But people...what if it is?
Was it really, really hard for Adam and Eve to be tempted into sin?
Was it really, really easy for Christ to go to the cross?
Was the life the Apostles lived really easy?
Was the life the Waldensen's (sp?) lived for the purpose of preserving Biblical truths easy?
In Paul's last days, he spoke of finishing the race, fighting a good fight, were these things easy?

I too am concerned about how accurate a picture of God people have.
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 15, 2011, 11:24:22 AM
Thanks EJ for your response to the article.

I just want to clarify that the quotes attributed to me in your post are not my quotes or are necessarily what I believe, and I realize that you were only quoting the Melissa Howell, the author of the article.

I have some problems with the article as well, but I posted it because I thought it would be a good springboard for discussion.

Stan
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: ejclark on April 15, 2011, 03:15:47 PM
Thanks EJ for your response to the article.

I just want to clarify that the quotes attributed to me in your post are not my quotes or are necessarily what I believe, and I realize that you were only quoting the Melissa Howell, the author of the article.

I have some problems with the article as well, but I posted it because I thought it would be a good springboard for discussion.

Stan
Yes, of course.
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 16, 2011, 04:48:11 PM
I have just read the article again from Adventist Today at this link by Melissa Howell:

http://www.atoday.com/content/still-wondering-whether-we
Title: Re: Assurance of Salvation
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 17, 2011, 04:26:44 PM



The article needs to state the very basis of how we come into a saving relationship with Christ, and how we can have that assurance.

One thing that is forgotten sometimes is that the new birth, or being born again, is not something we gin up. Being born into God's family is a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit. We are literally "new creations" as 2 Cor. 5 puts it. Our hearts of stone are changed into hearts of flesh. Our wills are changed. We aren't held hostage by God against our wills, but he changes our wills so we will want to obey Him, and He gives us the power to obey Him. We  obey and follow Him because we are saved, and not to earn salvation or keep our salvation. God implants a desire or thirst to study His Word carefully.

This concept is not "easy believism" but is at the heart of what the Bible teaches, and what the Reformers taught.
 Salvation is not just some easy raising of the hand, or walking down the aisle at an altar call, and then being told that we forever are saved. This is a dangerous teaching, and is what is taught by much of the evangelical world.

I hope to say a little more on this later if I have some time.


2 Corinthians 5:17

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
-----------------------------------------------
Notice again the present tense about all things becoming new.

The phrase "new creature" literally means a new creation. Who creates this new creature? Of course only God can give physical life, and only God can give spirtual life.

We are all born the first time in a fallen state because of Adam's sin. This is clearly taught in Romans 5.

To be saved, we need to be born a second time spiritually. This is what Jesus was teaching Nicodemus in John 3, and what is stated in John 1:12,13.

If we have truly experienced this new birth, then there will be solid evidence demonstrated in our lives.

As a result of this new birth, Romans 8 says we are not given a spirit of fear. We can rejoice in our relationship with our Heavenly Father, and not live in fear that we might not be saved.

Romans 5 says that since we are justified by faith which results from the new birth, we can have peace with God in the time present.

 Any child of God who is truly trusting in Christ for their salvation will never be lost while maintaining this simple trust in Jesus. We can have boldness when we come before the throne of grace. This indeed is the good news of the gospel!

Soli Deo Gloria (To God Alone be the Glory)

Stan