Revival Sermons

Prayer and Personal Testimonies => Personal Testimonies => Topic started by: GraceVessel on November 30, 2010, 01:25:21 PM

Title: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on November 30, 2010, 01:25:21 PM
Recently, I've come to the conclusion -- and this may be "colored" or "tainted" by what I am going thru regarding my wife's cancer but here goes.

1) NOT one person that is  "all that and a bag of chips" into EGW has been supportive in the least regarding my wife's cancer... it's some veiled comment about diet... as if ALL mitigating factors regarding my wifes health revolve around diet -- thus the bottom line whether veiled or just a direct - God is punishing you for eating meat... just frosts my cookies.

2) After taking inventory (as I come up to the one year anniversary of my wife being diagnosed)... there is an alarming statistic that just jumps out at me... most people in the church arent really interested in the fact that my wife has cancer... they dont wanna deal with it so they either wish it away --- "it will be ok because I am praying for you and I know you will be healed"... or ... you gotta keep the faith ... you know God is faithful... dont loose hope... and thats good and all but they REALLY dont have an interest about how we are ACTUALLY going thru the ordeal... they just keep it in the "dont ask dont tell" category.  Really ticks me off actually (insert here some lame excuse about some quotable EGW retort)...

3) Most of the people that are supportive... truly supportive are friends that are outside of the church... what does that say about SDA's... it's sad really... for the most part it's starting to dawn on me that most people have their pet 28 FB, and the "bible tot'n" EGW books to keep them company ... ok... let me wake, up spend some time reading ... cool I've got my quota read for the day... "I AM ON THE A TRAIN"... i've got the truth... you dont... you got cancer...

4) If you would've been a VEGAN all this time this wouldnt have happened... (that one wasnt even veiled). Priceless.

I cannot confront these people... they are perfect.. they got EGW right?   She is never wrong... and if they stand behind her.. they can do no wrong and just bash away...

You know... I came into the faith in 1972... it's really eye opening to realize that I no longer want to "be an adventist"...

Someone will prob post on this... and whatever spin you wanna put on it.. go ahead... but the bottom line... I dont desire to be part of a culture or church that has the predisposition to critizise and devalue other "Christian SDA's".. umm let me put it another way... those they dont quite measure up to where "we are"... you know the us and themmers... TBH... i dont have a desire to go to church... have no desire to be vulnerable around people that are ONLY at church because of the truth... I thought SDA's were full of compassion to others... nah... it's about the truth man... the truth... all you gotta do is KNOW... Jesus takes care of the rest... no responsibility whatsoever... just go to the EGW ticket counter, Read the brochure and get your ticket punched... the reward is that you get to pigeon hole other people that dont measure up, keep them down and discouraged.. I mean you dont really want them to get well do you?  You wouldnt have anyone left to feel better than?  If you run outta those people... whats left.. oh yea... Evangelism... lets pick some real winners so we can "bash em good"... or maybe we can pick some convertable ones.. you know the ones the Holy Spirit could really "get ahold of"... never know you might earn a few more "brownie points" in your crown...

Right now I could care less about "being adventist".... I have trouble just making it thru the day... but you dont wanna hear that.. you wanna hear how great Jesus is doing things in my life... well that may be the end result... It's weird really... at this point I am convince on the majority of our beliefs that I've had to time to restudy and solidify...

Bottom line... i am part of a cult... it's plain and simple... there is no other way to define it... wish I measured up to the "holy ones" including those on this board... unfortunately i dont... bummer really.

Maybe as I continue to search for meaning in life I'll come across the "rare breed" of actual Christians that happen to be adventist... get it?

/sigh

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Larry Lyons on November 30, 2010, 03:41:15 PM
Gracevessell, I have never had a close family member with cancer or any other such diseases so I can only imagine your pain and anguish. I wish I could say something helpful, but I don't really know what that would be.

I have a series of CDs by Ranko Stefanovic, a theologian who teaches at Andrews.  He tells of an aquaintance who is employed by the church in some capacity, who approached him to say that he was thinking of leaving the church. They had a conversation and Dr. Stefanovich told him "OK, leave the church, but before you go, find something better, and I will go with you." The man paused for a second and replied, "you're right. There is nothing better out there."

As Pastor O'Ffill says, the church is a hospital for sinners, not a hospice for saints. As I look around in my local church, and from what I know about the condition of the church at large, my personal faith cannot be based on the church of which I am a member. I can easily see people and situations that do not represent the ideals, values and teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist church.  My faith, if it has any value, must be based upon the head of the true church who is Jesus Christ, our Savior. We can only find peace if we keep our eyes upon Him.  
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Raven on November 30, 2010, 04:15:25 PM
It's difficult to know how to respond to your distress.  I'm sorry you've experienced such unkindness among the professed Adventists around you.  They do not represent the attitude of a true Christian.  The wheat and the tares grow together.  If you recall, even Jesus' hand-picked disciples were not too sympathetic toward some of those whom Jesus helped.  They tried to shoo the children away.  They asked whose sin caused a man to be born blind.  So, it should come as no surprise that there are those who parade around with a holier-than-thou Pharisaical attitude.  That knowledge doesn't make it any better, of course, but at least you are not the first to experience this.  Job's "friends" assumed he had brought his troubles upon himself because of his sinful life.  We know better, of course.

Breaking News:  Vegans often die of the same diseases that others do.  There often seems to be no rhyme or reason to these things.  I have family members who have died of cancer.  One lived a healthful lifestyle and died in their 60's.  Another dug their grave with their teeth, even while living to be 75.  You cannot change those who would blame your wife for her condition.  And even if it were her fault, telling you that is of no help.  The man at the pool of Bethesda was in the deplorable condition he was because of his decadent lifestyle.  Jesus didn't berate him for that.  He healed him and told him to go and sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon him.  What could be worse than a living death?  Not being ready to die.  This may be no comfort to someone facing death, but Ellen White says that to the
Christian death is a small matter.  It is to the one who is ready to die.  But it is hard on the living, the ones left behind.  Romans 8:28 is also not always a comfort those in dire straits, but it is true, nevertheless.  If we really believed it, it would make it easier to bear the trials that face us.  It was after Horatio Spafford  went through his worst trials that he wrote "It is Well with My Soul."

No, Adventists are not a cult, but some have a cultist mentality.  Jesus once asked His disciples if they were going to leave when so many others were leaving.  The basically said, "Where would we go?"  Noah had the whole world against him, except for his immediate family.  But he knew the truth, and that truth set him free.  His only safety was in staying in the ship.  The SDA Church is not perfect, but where else will you go and hear present truth?  I would rather be persecuted in the SDA Church than be welcomed with open arms in a church which believes "cunningly devised fables."

The things that you have told us don't surprise me that much.  I've known for a long time that Adventists can be just like the worst scoundrels you'd meet anywhere.  But that doesn't change the truth.  Standing for truth got you killed in the Dark Ages.  Still does in many places.  Jer. 12:5 may not apply in your case, but it's a text I like to remember when I'm tempted to complain.  I understand your cynicism, but it will not improve your lot.  Bury yourself in the Psalms.  Read the book of Job.  Don't compare yourself with others.  The only one to compare yourself with is Jesus.  Those who think they are holy, are not.  The closer we get to Jesus, the more sinful we appear in our own eyes.

The lyrics of the 3rd stanza of the hymn, "Stand up Stand up for Jesus" come to mind:  

       Stand up, stand up for Jesus,
   stand in his strength alone;
   the arm of flesh will fail you,
   ye dare not trust your own.

My efforts at this seem rather feeble.  I  hope you can find it in your heart to forgive those who have wronged you, and that this experience will strengthen your faith and not weaken it.  Believe what I Cor. 10:13 says.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on November 30, 2010, 05:34:01 PM
I''m sorry for the pain you are going through GV....  you have noticed something is lacking in our church and I've noticed it too. 

There is a sincere lack of love.  Our hearts are not converted.  We are all still selfish and cannot love as we should and care about others like Jesus would. 
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Pamela Adams on November 30, 2010, 09:35:12 PM
GV....sometimes when we pray for the sick....we forget about those who are staying home and taking care of their loved ones. Each day brings on new challenges, waking up thinking it might all be just a bad dream, and then the reality...many thoughts go through the mind...why did this happen...what am i going to do....etc...you would be able to fill in the blanks with your own situation.  Sleepless nights and failure to eat or to be able to eat brings on more stress to the situation and then many times knowing you need to pray, but unable to form the words to match the thoughts and feelings.  So many today are finding themselves in dire situations, for myself I am acquainted with more than a few families who are in unimaginable circumstances and not all are dealing with health issues. With each family i have found myself so personally involved, as I listen to their struggles, it is as if these things have happened to me....so many mixed emotions regarding issues...to the point it is difficult to even ask God how to pray for these brothers and sisters. My mother died of ovarian cancer 18 yrs ago...my daughter had breast cancer and my husband has a blood cancer[CLL}..and i have a very good friend who has liver cancer and still I find it difficult to relate to cancer patients. My mind immediately travels to a time past...rehearsing the stages and progression of the disease, the fears, the many doctor appointments, the tears, the emptiness and loss, the desire to want to heal them and coming to terms with my own inadequacy of being able to cope and have the answer they so desperately need. I understand your feelings regarding all the health prescriptions...we have been there...experienced some very hateful remarks...and then those who offer the remedies..if you only can pay $......fill in the blanks for this health institution, water machine, Mannatech etc....something inside tells you...it is not suppose to be this way.....it should not seem so difficult....does anyone care....? I have learned that I cannot read the heart of these individuals and trust that they are well meaning. During this process I have had to ask before my hour of trial..how often did I come to the aid of someone who was in need. I too am so guilty of offering little more than small talk etc.

With eyes to see and ears to hear there are many scriptures that can bring comfort......the SOP was given to us as a personal prescription to bring healing to our sin sick souls.... they are heaven sent. The shame of it to me, is that as a people we have failed to make these words our words...to express these thoughts as ours....we do not need to give book and page.....it is so much more meaningful to tell you that..we should  meditate on the beneficence of God,  you will find it most profitable to recount your blessings to ask God to give you a new language, that your heart can see, despite your present circumstances;that God delights in mercy; therefore you may trust in him. You are disappointed and well that you are, for you have come to realize that we cannot trust in others and we will have sorrow and many more disappointments before the Lord comes.  Ask the Lord to refresh in your mind that His love, his patience, his long-suffering is yours if you will believe and watch and pray; we are a most unworthy lot and we cannot in our own strength resist that ole devil but Jesus is our helper and He will fight your battles because he loves you with an everlasting love and will not withhold blessing you in your present circumstances. So my dear brother in Christ....I ask that you pray for me...as I pray for you...may our eyes be opened that we may see Jesus..may you feel His arms about you and may he bring you comfort both physically and spiritually....Blessings to you....
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: restoretruth on December 01, 2010, 12:34:29 AM
Grace Vessel

 It is obvious that you have many friends here. I just now read your post & the responses you received. I know there are many more who will respond either with a post or with prayer. Prayer is no small matter. God will see you & your wife through! Whatever happens, He is with you! None of us know what the future holds. I don't know your situation but I know that most people find it awkward to talk to someone about a serious illness. They don't want to seem like they are prying, and it is hard to know what to say. I don't know what to say to you, but I can briefly tell you our story.

My wife is a cancer survivor. It was a very difficult thing to face for both of us. The lowest point was when I could see in my wife's eyes that she was giving up hope. I walked outside into the nearby woods, knelt down beside a tree & had it out with God! I prayed! I cried! I very nearly blamed God!  Why did He let this happen to us?  After about 30 or 40 minutes I made my piece with God. I went back inside & my wife & I prayed. We searched for and claimed Bible promises. Her hope returned and as we continued to study & pray we came to trust in God no matter what!  Fortunately, or through God's providence, the surgeon was able to get all of the cancer. She has been cancer free for fifteen years now!  PTL! 

We will be praying for your wife & for you!  An illness like this brings us face to face with eternity. Continue your trust in God. There is a bright future ahead, no matter what happens!  Jesus is coming soon!
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: V. Hahn on December 01, 2010, 07:19:13 AM
Being a recent cancer survivor myself, even I have a hard time knowing what to say to you, GraceVessel.  Each person's journey is different, as each person is different.  God allows us to experience troubles to polish us to make us fit for heaven.  However, when we're being polished, it is never any fun.

Every person who is living with cancer, has had cancer, etc., is now called a cancer survivor.  Your wife has lived this long with cancer.  Praise God!  One thing that kept coming to my mind this summer as I was going through my own cancer experience and the near death of my brother is "Where there is life, there is hope."  Of course, even if we die, if we are faithful to the end, we have the hope of eternal life, so I guess we could say "Jesus IS Hope".

I'm just rambling here...please forgive me.

I'd like to share something our pastor told me recently.  I don't think he'd mind.

Years ago he was going through a very rough time.  He had only been married a short time and now his wife was dying of brain cancer.  While she rested in a downstairs bedroom, he went outside to sit by a pond and cry and pray to the Lord.  He was in deep distress.

His step-daughter looked through a window in her mother's sick room and said to her mother (Bob's wife) , "Who's that with Bob? He's dressed in white, standing behind him with his hands on Bob's shoulders."

There was no one they knew of that could be out there.  The next time she looked, the man was gone.

When Bob came back in they told them what the step-daughter had seen.

Pastor Bob said he had no sensation of anyone touching him...no sudden peaceful feeling came over him...no indication that God had even heard his prayer.  He wished  he had.

But Bob's story has encouraged me.  Now when I'm discouraged or afraid, I can picture my angel...or Jesus...with his hands on my shoulders.  I may not feel any different, but in faith I know God hears my prayers and He is with me.

He is with you, too, GraceVessel.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on December 01, 2010, 09:44:15 AM

I'd like to share something our pastor told me recently.  I don't think he'd mind.

Years ago he was going through a very rough time.  He had only been married a short time and now his wife was dying of brain cancer.  While she rested in a downstairs bedroom, he went outside to sit by a pond and cry and pray to the Lord.  He was in deep distress.

His step-daughter looked through a window in her mother's sick room and said to her mother (Bob's wife) , "Who's that with Bob? He's dressed in white, standing behind him with his hands on Bob's shoulders."

There was no one they knew of that could be out there.  The next time she looked, the man was gone.

When Bob came back in they told them what the step-daughter had seen.

Pastor Bob said he had no sensation of anyone touching him...no sudden peaceful feeling came over him...no indication that God had even heard his prayer.  He wished  he had.

that is an amazing story...thank you for sharing that..... 

and the other testimonies show that we are all experiencing some major things... I think God is trying to get our attention and to break down our spirits and to give up self and join with Him for time is short.

God wants a broken spirit and a living sacrifice and he will heal the broken hearted....
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: V. Hahn on December 01, 2010, 12:29:02 PM
By the way, Bob's wife is still living.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on December 01, 2010, 12:49:45 PM
Larry - Thanks for your response - I will acknowledge that a frontal look toward the end goal is needed with someone in my position.

Raven - your response is solid and contains the golden thread of always comparing our lot in life to what Jesus went thru and also forgiving people what what they do and/or do not intend to do as injurious to you.

Newbie - thanks for connecting and letting me know that I am not the only one that reads this vibe in the church et al.and your broken spirit motif will be helpful as I continue to process the enormity of what I am going thru.

Pamela - eyes and ears are good things and your comment regarding "experiencing true Christian compassion" is very noteworthy. Thank you.

RestoreTruth - I agree with you that perserverance and the motif of the tree are good object lessons to consider going thru what I am.  Thanks for the kind thoughts.

V. Hahn -  thanks for the uplifting story of the shoulders.  Sometimes God lets us know we are there.(sic).

Summary:

Although some seem offended and perplexed by the use of rhetorical questions and/or cynicism... it's really hard to explore the reality of what I am going thru on an emotional level.  I'll try to make another stab at it from a clinical point of view.

Here goes ... you live most of your life as an adventist with the idealistic view that since adventists "have the truth"... when the chips are down and you really need to lean on something or someone to make it through... the church will be there for you... at the very least spiritually. At the most, some of your fellow church members will show compassion and make themselves available to you for morale support, someone to talk to. etc etc.

What I am experiencing is quite the opposite of this ideal -

--- Over the past year I've tried to discover what the true meaning of life is... what truly constitutes being Christian?
--- How do i go through this journey of my wife's cancer, be supportive, and grieve... the upcoming death of my most cherished earthly relationship?
(Short comment here - I dont buy the ... well dont count on any help... you know Jesus tread the winepress alone comment here).  Jesus didnt give us the ability to be supportive only to remove it from people to make sure they experience despair and disaffection when compassion is most needed.\\
--- Do I really want to attend church when I am not allowed to voice anything other than what is expected within the "regularly allowed modicum of adventist normalized behavior".   To wit... I can only provide information regarding my wife's illness that doesnt "rock the boat" ... any perceived statement of my having difficulty with ANYTHING... necessitates the "God will not allow you any trial that He hasn't provided the grace to handle" kind of response... Priceless... how does that help me... First you dont acknowledge that I have the ability to feel (well you ignore or placate the fact that I have feelings) and/or I become a "candidate for prayer"...PLEASE.  If I want you to pray for my wife... shouldnt I be the one to ask for it?  Or are you gonna push that on me to?
--- Everything I am experiencing right now involves some kind of "behavior modification"... we cant really accept you and/or you dont fit in... unless we can pigeon hole you into some kind of "acceptable adventist" compartment.

(cont)
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on December 01, 2010, 12:50:23 PM
Being adventist:

I understand the ideal that you are posting here and agree with it on emperical terms -- however here are the visceral facts:

--- My wife's cancer is a fault of her own... Jesus would not purposefully give someone cancer - so the faults all hers.. whether stated or inferred.
--- God is allowing this to happen to benefit others, you never know how He is going to use you.
--- Sorry but gotta say it - Ellen G. White comments are used ad nauseum for dealing with cancer.  -- coming to hospital room unannounced by EGW (bible thumper) to try and guilt motivate my wife into going to Uchee Pines - she just wouldnt let it go... you need to drink green tea, you need to drink green tea, you need to drink green tea, you need to drink green tea, you need to drink green tea, you need to drink green tea, you need to drink green tea, and of course all this is while we have visitors (non-adventists, and Adventists alike that a) dont have a clue what she is talking about and b) are looking at me to get direction on how to react to this person  --- to wit... of course she has a right to come right in unannounced and bash away... she reads EGW... I forgot that this absolves you from ANY PERSONAL responsibility for your actions... you represent Jesus... so the world is your oyster.
--- NONE of the church members are like... i know this is a rough time for you.. if you ever need to talk... give me a call.   its just TOLD you so, TOLD you so, TOLD you so.  Jesus said there'd be day's like this... just think Jesus is coming soon -- ACTUALLY He is.  I fully believe it.  Sure would like to belong to a church, fellowship, anything that actually had compassion enough to come in outta the rain.
--- (from an Elder) --- as head deacon... I really dont think you are modeling the kind of behavior that Jesus would be proud of in this hospital.  You need to watch how you act and stuff.. people are watching.  Man arent I the fool --- i thought the reason we worshipped and obeyed was because we loved Jesus and wanted to be like him?  - Strange - dont show emotion, dont show weakness, focus mostly on your behavior --- those are the adventist bywords and cultural norms... yep -- we are a cult --- you can deny it all you want -- what would EGW think?  At this point do I really care?  Should I care?  If not? Why?  --- having experienced for a full year the reality of "being adventist" and seeing it from a really dark place.... people would rather I just went away... let someone else or other church deal with the reality of the cancer... we dont believe it exists and we think she will be healed...
--- (from a member) --- i just prayed to Jesus and I am here to tell you that your wife will be healed.  (not really a response I can give at this point--- if i question her i dont have faith -- if i agree with her... i accept her premise that maybe Jesus is wanting my wife in His arms to let her go to a peaceful rest and wait on the resurrection?  you think?  Nah --- why let me have any feelings you've already decided she was healed.  You are just along for the ride sir... enjoy it.

I fully believe the 28FB
I can fully source what I believe SOLELY from the bible.
I fully believe EGW is fully inspired and believe its a travesty that people "triangulate" how they believe scripture by making her a source of doctrinal belief. -- I've seen the direct damage caused by it.
I fully believe Jesus is returning soon.
I fully believe that the SDA church most fully represents the truths in the Bible...

Sometimes the truth hurts... well let me tell ya.  The church is about people -- not the belief structure  --- and if what I've experienced is NOT an anomaly... I am really scared to think what heaven is going to be like... cuz if its ANYTHING like what I've been thru... heaven is a place i really dont wanna go to... There is a major disconnect --  how I yearn to be in a fellowship with caring, God fearing, compassionate Christians.

what a sad commentary.

Thank you very much for the responses, it's helping me work thru these very hard questions.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel

Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on December 01, 2010, 01:55:44 PM
GV,
You have every right to feel the way you do....  I felt the same way when my mother was taken from me.  She was everything to me...we were best friends and always enjoyed each others company and trusted so so much.  We talked often and for hours when apart.  She never let me down. 

This is what broke my spirit and I dedicated my life to the Lord more fully than before... I press on but I still miss her and always will.  I look at life differently now.  There is only one goal.   I really don't care about what others think of me anymore if I do this or if I do that....  instead, I have put my energies into working for the Lord no matter where that takes me.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: V. Hahn on December 01, 2010, 02:21:15 PM
Dear GraceVessel,

First of all, heaven will NOT be like that.  The people in heaven will be like Jesus.

What you are telling us is valuable information, and I hope will help each one of us be a more compassionate and empathetic listener.

Can you list maybe 5-10 things that people have done for you during this time that have helped you the most?  Or that you wish they would do?  Help us to learn from your experience.

Vicki
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: V. Hahn on December 01, 2010, 02:23:18 PM
GV,
You have every right to feel the way you do....  I felt the same way when my mother was taken from me.  She was everything to me...we were best friends and always enjoyed each others company and trusted so so much.  We talked often and for hours when apart.  She never let me down. 

This is what broke my spirit and I dedicated my life to the Lord more fully than before... I press on but I still miss her and always will.  I look at life differently now.  There is only one goal.   I really don't care about what others think of me anymore if I do this or if I do that....  instead, I have put my energies into working for the Lord no matter where that takes me.

Newbie, what you wrote touched my heart so much.  YOur mother must have been a wonderful person.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on December 01, 2010, 02:59:51 PM
Good idea on the list of 5-10 things i experienced that is positive.

1) Top of list - my wife's committment to see this journey through to the end - she is a real trooper and most of all wants to honor God with the remainder of what time is left - This is a true inspiration to me

2) Pastor putting his arms around me and saying -- dude... I know we are friends and I am your pastor... but I really dont know what to say right now... there is nothing I can say... all i wanna do is "be there" for you if you ever wanna chat or let off steam.... I would consider it an honor -- THAT meant alot to me.

3) A good friends offered up a condo for free at the beach whenever my wife and i want to go ...

4) Gift cards send in the mail throughout to year to cheer my wife's spirits..

5) Seeing just a few people cry when I made the mistake and opened up one Sabbath school stating .. i would change places in a minute with my wife to bear what she is going thru... i deserve the cancer way more than she does...   VERY few people broke down and were compassionate but i was EXTREMELY thankful to the ones that did.  (the others seemed bothered that i would bring something that REALITY based into the sanctuary to discuss it -- kinda upset their apple cart --- i didnt really care.. how you like them apples :P   )

6) Several people actually taking the time to ask me how I was coping and allowing me to discuss the positive and neg aspects of what I was going thru.

Summary:

Being "there" for people means that you are human - there is a tendency with all the EGW writings and strict laws that we adhere to in the SDA continuem to just "deal with the facts" and present someone with a thus sayeth EGW on page blah blah... seen alot of that this past year... but it's odd nothing substantial have i received that applies (from EGW or our church) on how to encourage others going thru this... Guess we are just about the truth... forget about the caring part... that's for other people I guess.

I am still VERY dissillusioned -- and to be totally honest, I dont see myself as an "atttending adventist" that much longer... if I do it will be to slip in and out without being noticed at a big church... the pain is too deep and it's too REAL to actually share the human pathos with people.

To put it another way... we could bring tons of people into the church IF we were attentive to the human needs of others and showed compassion.. and really i dont see how the church will ever share the Gospel to the 4 corners of the earth -- the real gospel.. the one that acknowledges human feelings and frailities... thats not part and parcel of adventism... plain and simple... its a nice ideal... and we thump it hard... but its not reality.

The devil has made a lot of hay in the SDA church... relationally on how we deal with each other (forget the belief part).  If we cant show even human compassion to someone going thru a life threatening illness --- then we are really about one thing... telling the truth to people and just harping on that... maybe thats why we are not growing as a church overall... there are so many factors... human and divine... I know Jesus wants me to go through this... i just cannot bring myself to be vulernable at church again... i will continue to go while my wife is able... after that... well i dont think you want to know the answer to that.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 01, 2010, 04:24:14 PM
Graevessel,

My heart grieves for what you are going through right now. I am literally teary eyed as I write this. I can sympathize, as my wife has a terminal debilitating illness, which is heart wrenching to watch. I have experienced a lot of your same feelings, but I cannot really know how you feel and what you have been through.

I really like the responses of everyone that replied to your initial post.

I agree with Raven that Vegans get the same diseases that non vegans do.

I have been a hospital based physician for over 30 years. This is enough time to be able to tell you with virtual certainty that your wife's cancer had absolutely nothing to do with what she ate. I simply don't buy any of the so-called scientific evidence linking meat eating to cancer. Most of these studies are seriously flawed. I have taken care of too many sick vegetarians, and too many healthy meat eaters.

I hope this helps some, but I don't really know what to say. I will continue to pray. There are many loving Christians both in SDA and non-SDA churches, as I have experienced both. There are also many unloving pretenders in both settings.

I am believing that God will see both of you through on this painful journey.

God bless you and keep you.

Stan
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 01, 2010, 06:38:40 PM
GV would you do me a favor ?

Ask Father God to continually encourage you to trust and rest in the settled conviction that He and Jesus love you and your trusting dear wife.  Encourage her to hold on to that too. 

That's all I can hold to, myself.  If you want my email or phone to talk, PM me.

Ed
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Dora on December 01, 2010, 09:04:27 PM
Dear GV, I have not lost a spouse, although he did have a brain concussion to his frontal lobe that changed much of his thinking...but I did lose my dear mom to breast cancer when she was only 61. I cared for her in our home until her death, along with a 6 month old baby, and two other young children, with very few conveniences at the time.

Also, we lost a son at 33 years of age. That broke my heart. Did the church members care? Yes, they really did...and though we live 38 miles from the church, pots of soup, phone calls, and the few visits I would allow at that time, found their way into our home. They showed in many ways how much they did care.

No, the church is not perfect. When I was baptized 55 years ago, the pastor said, "I want to tell you something that was told to me at my baptism, 'It is a perfect message, but an imperfect people.'" And, no, just knowing the TRUTH, (which we do have access to if we listen and read) will save no one. In fact, I listened to a sermon by Norman McNulty about Laodicea. He said,"when we read, Rev.3:17, the part that says, 'I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing,' is not talking about material things, but is speaking of the spiritual truths the SDA church does have...but if we do not have the gold, white raiment, eyesalve, etc. we are in a terrible condition." I thought this very apt, for once again, we sound like the Jews, proclaiming that they were "the seed of Abraham," and we are spiritual Jews, and many are doing no better.

Don't give up on Jesus...and He does say "I am the Way, the TRUTH and the life.." Just because it is TRUTH does not make it bad! It is how we react to the fact that we do know the truth...we should remember that we, ourselves, have NOTHING to be proud of...It is not about me, but about Christ and His people!!
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Raven on December 02, 2010, 10:08:02 AM
GV, I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I know that some people don't respond the way you wish they would because they just become paralyzed, mentally I mean.  They don't know what to say.  They don't want to use the same trite phrases that are so common in these situations.  And they don't want to say anything that will make it worse, so they often clam up--not because they don't care, but simply because they feel so inadequate.  And let's face it.  We are all different and our responses to difficult situations, whether in others our ourselves, will be different.  Not all of us have the bedside manner of Jesus, even though we'd like to.  Try to assume the best--not that they don't care, but that they just don't know how to express it.  As for those who want to
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 11, 2010, 07:20:35 AM
The pain that comes as the death of someone beloved, approaches, is to be expected.    The stirring up of false friends is not normal, so it is a more effective weapon at that time of suffering.  Satan knows that and uses a longer reach into his childrens' hearts to stir up their worst dregs to use against those who love God and are made more vulnerable by their suffering.

Satan's attack for some is upon their calling.    He attempted to dislodge Christ's faith in His calling  >  

Matthew 4:3  And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God  , command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:6  And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matthew 27:40  And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself.  If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Matthew 27:43  He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Luke 4:3  And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

Luke 4:9  And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

Satan attempts to dislodge our faith in our calling >  sometimes by events, sometimes by what people do or don't do, sometimes by what people teach or don't teach or how they teach it.

Hebrews 12:3  For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

I felt my calling and appeal while reading -  Desire of Ages  Chap. 74 - Gethsemane  - for the first time & multiple times.   But the call is also there in the 4 gospels that tell that story,< bythe way -  Desire of Ages simply unpacked it in a way that ( got my attention sufficient to arrest my attention, inform me, convict me, fill me with righteous desire, build that desire to action & unlocking my heart to Jesus  + the new life He brought as a function of himself coming in to eat with me as He brought the food from above.) The Bible tried but I was too blind to grasp the Word.   I had, had 20 weeks of Bible Studies, but was still in labor and delivery, still being born, had not yet been born. >

Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 11, 2010, 07:26:20 AM
part 2 - got nailed by the 5K limit.

John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

There is a good reality that can be our life line if we are willing to use it, for while the human calling is easier to damage from Satan's assaults from those who are in reality his children claiming God's family in their hypocrisy; this second facet of this reality is more durable.

Revelation 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Your calling is a four fold cord.       Father God, Jesus Christ, Adoni the Holy Ghost - are the first  3 cords of your calling,  humans supposedly connected to them are the 4th cord of the calling.  

The Holy Ghost speaks as Christ tells Him or agrees with - John 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Christ speaks as Father God tells Him or agrees with - John 14:24  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on December 11, 2010, 05:30:44 PM
GV,
Haven't heard from you in a while... how are you?
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on December 13, 2010, 02:22:37 PM
Newbie,

Thanks for asking. I am continuing to withdraw from alot of people (while I keep up the humor and make sure I act in a way that they are expecting me to act) internally.  I've been depressed before and am really dealing with what in the psychologically parlance.. as Anticipatory Grief...

The other day during lunch I reached out and had a very good talk with Ed Sutton.  He is a really nice man and was very compassionate and supportive.  I enjoyed the chat with him very much, and look forward to getting to know him better in the future.  I consider his approach to biblical study very sound.

The best way I could explain the way I feel is that I'm emotionally paralyzed.  I feel constricted that I need to "act a certain" way... both so that that others are not offended or bothered by my wifes cancer (I definitely don't want to be a burden to anyone)... and also the double-edged sword of trying to "put on a good face" for the wife... the pressure after a year is like a vice that is slowly turning... or a good analogy is that you are slowly being crushed by a glacier... not a thing you can do about it... sometimes I am ok relying on God about it... but alot of times ... it's just too dark... and I cannot maintain the facade and I emotionally break down... it can come during meetings at work... or driving down the road or in front of wife... sometimes i look like a blibbering fish !!!

I know that is not behavior that is culturally acceptable, and especially what the SDA church wants - they want instant McDonald's faith... I'll take fries with that... and make sure your experience is inspirational.. I'll take a double expresso of that also...  bummer that is not what I ordered... please take that honesty back... and give me another fish sandwich of how your getting along so nicely supporting your wife at this time.  Take three EGW quotes that remind you that Jesus trod the winepress alone and you'll be alright... I'll catch you tomorrow when I stop by the fast food church shop for another expresso...

Anyway, I feel like i am going into a deep depression and am REALLY having problems focusing.  I guess it goes with the territory... better take it like a man before the other people in the church realize that I don't measure up... wouldnt want to disappoint.

Jesus wouldn't want anyone to bring anyone down... always remember to read your bible and correct people... it's all about the obedience... dont forget that.
Remember Eeyore in Winnie the Pooh ... he was really melancholy... I really relate with him... the glass is definitely have empty.

Somebody said that everybody was gonna be upset if somebody didnt come visit to see how I was doing.  Everybody said that somebody should really check into how our friend was doing... however everbody said that anybody should be able to make sure that he was visited... then finally before the end of the day... nobody came. 

I do appreciate y'alls prayers.  It means alot... just trying to convey how i feel... if it offends you I am sorry... right now i am about being honest.

Sometimes reality hurts.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on December 13, 2010, 08:15:51 PM
Nice to hear from you GV,

Being care giver is extremely difficult... 
 
So much of the assistance is for the sick when the care giver needs something too.  I think that most of us don't really know what to do until we have been there.

My dad was care giver for my mother and it almost killed him.  My brother and I had to step in and have my mother taken care of by another.  Then, my dad was able to recover. 

God Bless and I'm glad that brother Ed has been there for you....

newbie

Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 14, 2010, 11:16:00 AM
GV & L -  The privilidge is an honour - anytime
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on January 31, 2011, 01:07:33 PM
Over a year now with my wife on her second protocol of chemo (FLOX) Her fingers are tingling... so not sure how long that will go on every two weeks and also I am not sure on the duration on how long the (FLOX) protocol will actively prevent the cancer from growing. 

The thing which really bothers me at this point is that this is her last chemo (everything else from this point is experimental).  Now that I've "turned the 4th corner on the race track"... it's been really hard to see the end approaching.. I've grown and dont cry as much but I am still "scared as the dickens" about the future and life wihout my "pride and joy".

Recently, I turned 50,,, and thought... you know I should get a Colonoscopy... i went thru the normal channels.. to be in network blah blah ... and last week had the consultation interview for the colonoscopy... was a BAD TIME... i had the front desk clerk (I was highly emotional..) treat me like a credit card... I replied in a VERY rude way and dropped my license and medical card on her desk "THERE YOU GO"... the nurse meeting afterwards went south from there... long story short.. when i got home... i found that my Dr had "fired me from his practice"... priceless... I felt terrible... took a day off from work... (and then contacted my wife's Dr. Group)... and they took me in....  today i had a nice Christian dr... take the time to discuss my anxiety... which is intense (last time i dealt with the colon test my wife had Stage 4)... he and I both agreed that later in the year was a good time to get it done given my current emotional upheaval.  He then shared with me that I needed to glorify God in how I am dealing with this... that God had prepared me for this moment... I was blown away on how compassionate he was, and how i needed the correction, he ended the session by praying with me.

God actually took my dishonour,, and provided kind direction to me through my new doctor.  He also told me to take time for myself to prepare for being alone so that i can cherish the memory of my wife as she waits for the resurrection.  Was really powerful stuff.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Tammy on January 31, 2011, 03:09:58 PM
today i had a nice Christian dr... take the time to discuss my anxiety... which is intense (last time i dealt with the colon test my wife had Stage 4)... he and I both agreed that later in the year was a good time to get it done given my current emotional upheaval.  He then shared with me that I needed to glorify God in how I am dealing with this... that God had prepared me for this moment... I was blown away on how compassionate he was, and how i needed the correction, he ended the session by praying with me.

God actually took my dishonour,, and provided kind direction to me through my new doctor.  He also told me to take time for myself to prepare for being alone so that i can cherish the memory of my wife as she waits for the resurrection.  Was really powerful stuff.

What a doctor!!  Maybe sent directly from heaven for you. ?? !!
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on January 31, 2011, 05:14:45 PM
GV,
That is wonderful... I'm so glad you have a new doctor and God has given you someone that cares and you are getting some real help. 
newbie

ps.  didn't know docs could fire you
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 31, 2011, 06:30:04 PM
GV, and Stan, and any and all with suffering loved ones.

Isaiah 43:4  Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

5  Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6  I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
7  Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
8
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 31, 2011, 06:50:48 PM
Often our circumstances and struggles are different, sometimes it's so similar , but looking how God is bringing heretofore strangers out of the woodwork to help us and with their kindness, sympathy, knowledge, skills, kindness, 2nd & 3rd proactive mile for us, no matter that our faith may be strange to them; but our need and often helplessness they understand, and in loving nobility of soul are reaching out with their best to help us as far as their sphere of ability and influence allows..........whether it's Stan & wife, or CV & wife, of Ed & wife and her Mom, or whoever we all are.

Our need stirs these people to take needful, loving, kind action's and proactions, and if we should come unto our own and they receive us not,  ............. God is demonstrating that His love moves those who listen and He is calling them for our sakes and He is animating men and women of all walks ..........with His love and concern and skill for our sakes.

Isaiah chapter 43 onward and Romans 8:14 is true, and God is paying very close attention to our needs and the walking through the valley of death and how it's affecting all involved......................God is working overtime in higher and higher gears for all our sakes.  


How it will all turn out is the function of following His roadmap the Bible.   in all our darkness He is lighting our ways, He has not left any of us alone.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on March 15, 2012, 10:46:27 AM
I kinda thought I would end up here at the end of the journey... couple months past my wife's death... crickets... My pastor is still solid .. but I've resigned my positions ... reasons pertaining to respect and fealty.. none of which abide in the leadership of the local church I attend. 

I am still looking to fellowship and worship with other adventists.. havent asked to have my name taken off the rolls yet... There is a social component to attending church, and it's very integral to retaining a safe and adequate fellowship in which to freely worship.

Sad to say... but that is fast disappearing.

With friends like this... who needs enemies. 

Truthfully, if I would known at the start of my journey as an adventist "culture phobe" that my "acceptance" was solely "behavior based".. I would have saved myself the trouble.

I still love God, and want to follow Jesus... it's my hope and prayer to keep that a priority... however... I'm stuck in a church that is..

1) a cult
2) totally behavior focused and based and biased
3) lacking any doctrinal direction.

Unforunately I dont want to fellowship with "adventist" minded people and am still an adventist (closest doctrinally).

It presents a quandry from which I will attempt to solve as time moves on.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel

Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on March 16, 2012, 11:53:01 AM
GV  have you read Charles Fitch's book?  It is really where we all should be and most are not...

Heres is the link for others too that might be interested... it is free and only 33 pages but great great stuff.

http://temcat.com/08A-Prayer-Prom/Christian-Experience-Charles-Fitch.pdf (http://temcat.com/08A-Prayer-Prom/Christian-Experience-Charles-Fitch.pdf)
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on April 04, 2012, 12:36:31 PM
I read over a good portion of the book and have done alot more thinking about things.

To boil it down... there are two lives we live... one we learn with..
The other we live with after that...

The 28FB, EGW source dilemma being what it is (pink elephant that the church will never touch or deal with).  Pretty much forces me (as I am trying to be totally upfront and honest with myself and what I actually believe and trust in) to "detach" from the adventist church at this time... name is still on rolls.. (as if that matters) ... I guess it doesnt technically since most adventists view themselves as part of the remnant first and a christian second... sad but true.  I want to be part of God's kingdom and worship him in spirit and in truth (insert causal discussion here with a myriad of opinions).. but I want to do it from the inside out... and i am speaking for myself... but cultural norm dictates within adventism that the GC has the last word regarding doctrine (catholic), the local church is always subjective to the pastor (and/or conference rep).  I have come to the conclusion that what I believe MUST be bible based and that thru my committed study to God's (according to the promise that he will never leave us or forsake us).

1) I have some grieving left to do regarding my wife's passing
2) Being solely focused on being centered within myself must be a priority in order to move forward.
3) Making myself vulnerable to God's direction regarding my future doesn't involve the SDA church. I may return with God's leading... but it's not directive. It's where I end up.  Not where I am going.
4) I am not defined by being "adventist"... rather I hope to be defined for being "aligned" with Adventism as my singular journey towards determining truth leads. 
5) Taking the 28FB and EGW writings ... carte blanche without really thinking ... doesnt work for me anymore.
Would rather be accused of being a Christian and have the evidence to back it up... not just having the "membership tag" define me.

(cont)
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on April 04, 2012, 12:43:17 PM
A few people have reached out to me regarding returning to church (usually related to some activity, choir, mowing grass,etc)... and thats cool and all... but only one or two are like ... take as much time as you need to grieve... we are interested in you as an individual and pray that you will work your grief out between you and God... it's pretty much obvious that the "attendance" is the main focus.

Thus -- my "tithe" and presence in the church is significantly more important that my need to heal and worship free and clear.  It's STILL about behavior.  I will give them and "A" grade for consistency on that.  Adventism is a cult. /sigh there I said it.  It's ultra depressing.   It's really weird living outside the bubble.

Time to chew some other gum....

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: foofighter on April 04, 2012, 05:02:32 PM
Praying for you GraceVessel...I understand much of what you say. 

Carol
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Raven on April 05, 2012, 03:06:33 AM
GraceVessel,  I'm sorry you've had so many unpleasant experiences in your association with the SDA Church.  Jesus didn't fare to well in that department, either.  And he's had plenty of company over the centuries.  At least they haven't tied you to a stake and lit a fire, yet.  It's not about attendance or tithe, per se.  Those are clear Biblical mandates, of course; it's more about truth.  No matter how you've been treated, or how bad things have been, it doesn't change the truth.  Job seemed to understand that, as did the disciples when everyone was deserting Jesus.  They realized that there was nowhere else to go, because Jesus had the truth.  If you don't believe the doctrines of the SDA Church, that's one thing.  But apparently you did believe them at one time, or you would not have joined the church.  Maybe it's time to go back an study them again.  I've studied them for decades, and their validity only becomes clearer as the years pass.  Having said that, I don't profess to understand everything.  There are still many questions.  But the evidence in their favor is overwhelming.

When we look to man, we will always be disappointed and frustrated.  Focusing on Jesus and His Word is the only solution.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on April 05, 2012, 07:06:52 AM
May God Bless you GV and bring you to understanding and full knowledge of Him through your time of trial.  May you open yourself to the love of Jesus that can and will purify the heart of all unrighteousness and give you peace, joy, and love.  This is what we all need and seek no matter what the trial.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 05, 2012, 11:25:08 AM
Gracevessel, I can't say that I know how you feel, because I haven't experienced what you have, but I can see that you are in pain. I pray that God will give you relief and guide you in your spiritual walk. I am not going to presume to give you advice, but I will relate to you something that pastor Leroy Moore has written, and it may sound a bit heretical to some. His career has included ministering to those who have left the church. I don't have the direct quote at hand, but He wrote that if a person feels that remaining in the church is a violation of their conscience, then leaving is the safest thing to do.
I am by no means suggesting that this is your situation. God knows exactly what your spiritual needs are and He is well able to guide you in your walk with Him.

I pray and trust that He will do this with you.

Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: V. Hahn on April 05, 2012, 02:16:49 PM
Dear GraceV,

Raven has already beat me to it, but I want to second what he said...Look to Jesus and keep trusting in Him. He is the ONLY one who will never let you down.  Our loving Savior suffered many disappointments and sorrows.  He knows what you're going through even if no one else on earth does.  May He hold you in the palm of His hand and give you peace, brother.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on April 26, 2012, 09:18:49 AM
I've come to the conclusion that I never thought I'd every reach... it's time for me to stop living a lie.... namely I don't fully agree with the "Remnant concept"  of the SDA church being "the truth"... per se.  The Sabbath (as part of a restorative relationship with ) I agree with totally.  The "culturalized Sabbath" of Adventism I don't..  

There are some hard facts you face when living single.  Namely, you have to ask yourself very hard questions about what motivates you, who or what are you living for... etc etc..

I'm in the process of requesting that my name be taken off the rolls... the SDA church is about controlling others behavior pure and simple... it's mostly veiled under the auspice of EGW Writings, the 28FB and our hyper-focused doctrinal bias and quasi-health message.

It's a very sad time, but the axiom... to thine ownself be true... keeps coming up to my mind.  For me to continue to "ride the train" doesnt seem approriate or feel right.   Better to stand for something than to go along with the "masses" and stifle what you know to be true (whatever that happens to be).

I may sometime in the future end up in the SDA church... it pains me very much to leave it.  Jesus trod the winepress alone... and it just so happens if your adventist.. you will too... the placation of "behavior-modification ad-nauseum" will be your lot.


Not sure if you want me still on the boards or not.  Either way I understand.  I've learned alot here.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 26, 2012, 03:22:03 PM
I've come to the conclusion that I never thought I'd every reach... it's time for me to stop living a lie.... namely I don't fully agree with the "Remnant concept"  of the SDA church being "the truth"... per se.  The Sabbath (as part of a restorative relationship with ) I agree with totally.  The "culturalized Sabbath" of Adventism I don't..  

There are some hard facts you face when living single.  Namely, you have to ask yourself very hard questions about what motivates you, who or what are you living for... etc etc..

I'm in the process of requesting that my name be taken off the rolls... the SDA church is about controlling others behavior pure and simple... it's mostly veiled under the auspice of EGW Writings, the 28FB and our hyper-focused doctrinal bias and quasi-health message.

It's a very sad time, but the axiom... to thine ownself be true... keeps coming up to my mind.  For me to continue to "ride the train" doesnt seem approriate or feel right.   Better to stand for something than to go along with the "masses" and stifle what you know to be true (whatever that happens to be).

I may sometime in the future end up in the SDA church... it pains me very much to leave it.  Jesus trod the winepress alone... and it just so happens if your adventist.. you will too... the placation of "behavior-modification ad-nauseum" will be your lot.


Not sure if you want me still on the boards or not.  Either way I understand.  I've learned alot here.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Gracevesse, I am sorry your experience of the Adventist church has been so negative. If you truly do not think this is where God wants you, it would be unhealthy for you to remain. However, I pray that the Holy Spirit leads you and that you will respond in a positive way should He indicate that you should return.
I see no necessity for you to leave this forum. You don't have to be a church member to be here. The guidelines apply to every one, church member or not.
I wish you well whatever your decision.

Larry.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Raven on April 26, 2012, 04:53:25 PM
I echo the sentiments of Larry.  I can't add anything to that, so I won't try.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Carl on April 27, 2012, 08:59:36 AM
GraceVessel, sorry to hear what you wrote, some of it is true, you will get very discouraged and even angry when you look at the actions and words of people in any SDA church, especially with so many turning to the "progressive" tragedy so popular today. Perhaps your looking at the physical church too much?

My only suggestion to you is to try and change focus a little and form a closer relationship with Jesus, truly walk with Him, simplify your life by making Him the center of everything. Seems this would be even easier to do because you live alone, it has me for sure, there are no distractions. Form the concept in your mind, that it's just you and Jesus.

Lastly, this time in history is so crucial like no other to walk with Jesus, how faulty and angering the actions of what's happening in the physical church can be, it is still the remnant church, the church that will go on to see Jesus return. Those weeds that cause discouragement and discontent today will be shaken out soon and the true remnant will remain. Very bluntly, it is the devil that is trying with all his might to discourage and lead minds away, and he is a master at doing his craft using other people and everything he can to do his deeds.

Please Gracevessel, walk closer with Jesus, talk to him because He's standing right beside you, let Him guide.

Prayerfully,
Carl
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: V. Hahn on April 27, 2012, 11:20:47 AM
Wise words, Carl.  Unfortunately, there will be no perfect church until we get to heaven as Christ's bride!  All unity, love and unselfishness!  Can't wait!

I remember a sermon by Doug Batchelor where he mentioned a survey that asked people why they chose their church.  Some said they chose it because of the beautiful building, the charismatic preacher or the majestic music.  Others go because it was the close to where they lived, others because they had a good children's program, etc.  I saw the survey myself when I worked at a Reformed church and some even chose their church because it had great bathroom facilities!  I'm not kidding!

Batchelor said these aren't the right reasons for choosing a church.  He said something along the lines that as long as the church was preaching and teaching the truth, it doesn't matter if the building is ugly, the pastor isn't eloquent or the people are grumpy.    Truth is the most important thing.  I've always remembered that, and I hope you do, too, GV.

Like Carl said, it is Satan who is tries to discourage you...and us, too.  His time is short and he's REALLY angry!

So keep looking up, GV, and ask God to lead.  He will!

Vicki
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Carl on April 27, 2012, 03:48:50 PM

it is Satan who is tries to discourage you...and us, too.  His time is short and he's REALLY angry!
So keep looking up, GV, and ask God to lead.  He will!

Vicki

Yes, Vicki, it's like a blanket Satan is pulling over the whole world, every facet of humanity is growing more evil and immorality abounds. You can gauge the time we are in by just looking at the devil's greatly increased activity, he sees his world ending soon. There are things so hideous going on but, the media controls a lot of what we know about or not. Only by fully trusting Jesus can we go through that time coming when they will come after every earthly thing we own.

Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: lily-of-the-field on April 27, 2012, 08:45:33 PM
Hi GV.  I am sorry that I've only just started reading this thread now when you have already made your decision.  Yes, I can see the case for being true to your conscience, but you are also discouraged and grieving.  I wish you God's close presence and loving kindness at this difficult time. 
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on May 25, 2012, 02:52:46 AM
Wow... my wife's brother called me to last night to inform me that he has pancreatic cancer...

It's been a very hard year... thank you by the way for your kindness and support. I still love God even though my in depth study of scripture doesnt lead me to view the SDA church as the remnant anymore. 

It's really sad to see how you are treated once you are not one of "us" and your a "them"...  I've learned alot from this board and the point and counterpoint has deepened my understanding, and forced me to consider and think about some very solid and fundamental questions about what constitutes faith.

May God richly bless each of you.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on May 25, 2012, 05:27:27 AM
Wow... my wife's brother called me to last night to inform me that he has pancreatic cancer...

It's been a very hard year... thank you by the way for your kindness and support. I still love God even though my in depth study of scripture doesnt lead me to view the SDA church as the remnant anymore. 

It's really sad to see how you are treated once you are not one of "us" and your a "them"...  I've learned alot from this board and the point and counterpoint has deepened my understanding, and forced me to consider and think about some very solid and fundamental questions about what constitutes faith.

May God richly bless each of you.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
  I'm sorry to hear about the cancer in the family GV.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: V. Hahn on May 25, 2012, 09:30:01 AM
Wow... my wife's brother called me to last night to inform me that he has pancreatic cancer...

It's been a very hard year... thank you by the way for your kindness and support. I still love God even though my in depth study of scripture doesnt lead me to view the SDA church as the remnant anymore. 

It's really sad to see how you are treated once you are not one of "us" and your a "them"...  I've learned alot from this board and the point and counterpoint has deepened my understanding, and forced me to consider and think about some very solid and fundamental questions about what constitutes faith.

May God richly bless each of you.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
I, too, am sorry to hear about the sickness in your family, GV.  Satan seems to be attacking every which way he can to discourage us.  May these experiences that you and your family have been going through draw you even closer to Jesus.

Precious Lord, take my hand
Lead me on,
Let me stand
I'm tired, I am weak I am worn
Through the storm, through the night
Lead me on to the light
Take my hand precious Lord, lead me home

When my way grows drear precious Lord linger near
When my life is almost gone
Hear my cry,
Hear my call
Hold my hand lest I fall
Take my hand precious Lord, lead me home

When the darkness appears and the night draws near
And the day is past and gone
At the river I stand
Guide my feet,
Hold my hand
Take my hand precious Lord, lead me home
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on May 26, 2012, 08:46:54 PM
So sorry Allan.

It seems when it rains, it pours.

I like the song that Vicky posted.

I would suggest reading the Psalms and meditating on them.

Praying for you.

Stan
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: GraceVessel on October 15, 2012, 09:44:38 AM
It's nearing a year since my wife passed, and alot of grieving has taken place (and I know I'll always grieve as time goes on).

One of the things I've noticed over the past year pertains to how you are treated once you are not adventist... It's easy to see why very few people statistically return.  I've visited about 4-5 times over the past year (some of my close friends are good solid Christians that happen to be SDA).

Inclusion into a "group" to me doesnt constitute true worship.  Still trying to get my head/heart/mind around the concept "in spirit and in truth"... is that doctrinal only? relational/doctrinal? or both?

We are sold an ideal growing-up SDA that the "reality" of what we experience is "in God's plan".  Thing is, I realize now that the church for the most part (not belief but organizationally), is politically obligated to manage, administer, and oversee churches/districts based on the donation structure of the "biggest givers".  This may be part of human nature, but SDA'ism is not immune to it.  To a great extent fairness, balance, trustworthiness... doesnt exist.  Sad but true commentary (and I know this is me speaking of my experience and is subjective).

Accountability goes a LONGWAY with me.  I tried to be accountable for my wife's care, and to guard and protect her spiritual health.  That is not a concern of the SDA church.  Now that the dust has settled, I've noticed more and more that my "abiding in Jesus" has to do with my personal time with Him in the morning -- quiet reflection to remember and be thankful for His grace.  Coming to SS/Church to meet the "status quo" of expected behavior when you are mentally "checked out"... doesnt make sense.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: newbie on October 15, 2012, 04:42:21 PM
Hi GV and nice to hear from you and your walk....  step by step

I see things a bit differently in that I was not into this faith until early 1990s.  I was searching and the search ended with the Lord showing me that this church has more truth than the rest of the denominations.  So, my heart is still with the SDA denomination. 

Having said that, it has not been easy.  We have gone through much with certain individuals in the church that do not live up to God's standard of LOVing one another.  I've almost left several times because of certain individuals but in the end, I just let it go and move on the best I can knowing that Jesus is aware of it all.  We are not perfect yet but there will be a time when there will be perfect unity in the 'church'.  Then, things will really break forth in power for the last warning for the whole world.  I'm waiting for this time...

God's people whomever they are and where ever they are will be joined together and be of the Lord's army for the last days.

For what it is worth, my 2 cents
God Bless All
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Raven on October 16, 2012, 03:21:18 AM
Something that Clifford Goldstein once said at our campmeeting sticks with me.  It was the idea that not matter what anyone does, it does not change the truth.  The Sabbath is still the Sabbath.  All the other truths of Scripture that we believe in are still valid.  His hypothetical situation was that if we heard that he got arrested for drug dealing upon his return to Washington would that change the truth?  Of course not.  Only as we look to Jesus and not our fellow men (who are fallible and will do stupid things, mean things, thoughtless things) will we be able to maintain our faith.  Sometimes I'm afraid that we forget that if anyone ever had reason to leave the church it would have been Jesus or Paul.  Both were persecuted by church leaders; both were physically abused and their statements were misconstrued; but they looked to the Source of their strength rather than to the weakness of man.
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 16, 2012, 08:57:44 AM
Sometimes we need to stay in the church spite of the members and even at times in spite of the leadership. Sometimes, attendance at church can be our strongest witness. "For we are made a spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men" (I Cor. 4:9).
Title: Re: Really don't wanna be an adventist anymore but I am stuck with it...
Post by: Richard OFfill on October 16, 2012, 03:13:16 PM
Someone once told me that he believed the church had apostatized. I smiled and said, I am a part of the church and I haven't apostatized, have you? :).