Revival Sermons

Theology => The Cross => Topic started by: Slingshot on March 18, 2010, 11:26:12 AM

Title: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 18, 2010, 11:26:12 AM
Larry, if this blows up, I'm blaming you!  :-D

Stan, let me start by asking you a question. How do you understand the the Atonement to have worked?
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 18, 2010, 05:48:51 PM
Larry, if this blows up, I'm blaming you!  :-D

Stan, let me start by asking you a question. How do you understand the the Atonement to have worked?

Thats OK. It this works out we'll make it into a movie, OK? Something like the Scopes trial. You get to be the new Clarence Darrow (you can smoke a fake cigar in the movie). Stan will be William Jennings Bryan.  
 :-D
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 18, 2010, 11:18:39 PM
Larry, if this blows up, I'm blaming you!  :-D

Stan, let me start by asking you a question. How do you understand the the Atonement to have worked?

http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=3042.30

Please review this thread pages 4 and 5, and then the discussion picked up again on page 7 where my view of the atonement was stated clearly.

Here is a relatively concise treatise on the atonement from J.I. Packer, and since I agree fully with the views stated here, I will take the liberty of posting what he wrote with all his scriptural references:


Atonement means making amends, blotting out the offense, and giving satisfaction for
wrong done; thus reconciling to oneself the alienated other and restoring the disrupted
relationship.


Scripture depicts all human beings as needing to atone for their sins but lacking all power
and resources for doing so. We have offended our holy Creator, whose nature it is to hate
sin (Jer. 44:4; Hab. 1:13) and to punish it (Ps. 5:4-6; Rom. 1:18; 2:5-9). No acceptance by, or
fellowship with, such a God can be expected unless atonement is made, and since there is
sin in even our best actions, anything we do in hopes of making amends can only increase
our guilt or worsen our situation. This makes it ruinous folly to seek to establish one
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on March 19, 2010, 08:30:03 AM
and atonement continues for the remnant...  until this is all finished... God Bless
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 19, 2010, 11:25:15 PM

Atonement means making amends, blotting out the offense, and giving satisfaction for
wrong done; thus reconciling to oneself the alienated other and restoring the disrupted
relationship.


Scripture depicts all human beings as needing to atone for their sins but lacking all power
and resources for doing so. We have offended our holy Creator, whose nature it is to hate
sin


Jeremiah 44:3-6

3Because of their wickedness which they have committed to provoke me to anger, in that they went to burn incense, and to serve other gods, whom they knew not, neither they, ye, nor your fathers.

 4Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate.

 5But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense unto other gods.

 6Wherefore my fury and mine anger was poured forth, and was kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they are wasted and desolate, as at this day.

and God punishes sin

Romans 1:18;

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 2:5-9:

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
----------------
The above texts are especially difficult for the Maxwellians to deal with. They can't believe that God will pour His wrath on sinners. They try to say that this wrath is only what the sinner brings upon himself.

No acceptance by, or fellowship with, such a God can be expected unless atonement is made, and since there is
sin in even our best actions, anything we do in hopes of making amends can only increase
our guilt or worsen our situation. This makes it ruinous folly to seek to establish one
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 19, 2010, 11:37:51 PM
When God brought Israel out of Egypt, he set up as part of the covenant relationship a
system of sacrifices that had at its heart the shedding and offering of the blood of unflawed
animals
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on March 20, 2010, 06:33:11 AM
It seems I can agree with you on this Stan.....   :-)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: ejclark on March 21, 2010, 08:40:25 AM
I have read this thread and the other thread attached and something I find most disturbing, no one is quoting Spirit of Prophecy.
 
Quote
One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan's banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God's Spirit.--3SM 84 (1903).  {LDE 177.4} 
     
The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony.--1SM 48 (1890).  {LDE 177.5} 

The enemy has made his masterly efforts to unsettle the faith of our own people in the Testimonies. . . . This is just as Satan designed it should be, and those who have been preparing the way for the people to pay no heed to the warnings and reproofs of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God will see that a tide of errors of all kinds will spring into life.--3SM 83 (1890).  {LDE 178.1} 

We have become such a generation of "I want to know it now", we resort to reading the "quick" answers to our questions from authors who say they have spent the time in the Bible and SOP, instead of spending the time in the Bible and SOP ourselves.  We end up glorifying other authors instead of glorifying the Gift of Prophecy in the Bible and Testimonies.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on March 21, 2010, 09:11:06 AM
I have read this thread and the other thread attached and something I find most disturbing, no one is quoting Spirit of Prophecy.
 
We have become such a generation of "I want to know it now", we resort to reading the "quick" answers to our questions from authors who say they have spent the time in the Bible and SOP, instead of spending the time in the Bible and SOP ourselves.  We end up glorifying other authors instead of glorifying the Gift of Prophecy in the Bible and Testimonies.

ej,
I agree with you that bible and sop should be our focus....  sometimes I just post and know that the source is from sop and bible but I don't say so....  sorry...  no time ... :wink:
I rarely read anything outside of our denomination because I just have 'no time' for that stuff. 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: ejclark on March 21, 2010, 09:32:15 AM
newbie,
My post wasn't directed at you, sorry if you took it that way.  I know that you reference SOP quite frequently when you are more involved in a discussion.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 21, 2010, 12:23:56 PM
Just so we are all clear about this thread, a discussion was started several months ago that was to be between Stan and Slingshot about the teachings of Graham Maxwell. It has been resumed here with the focus on the atonement. I am not saying that nobody else should post, but as Stan mentioned, his work schedule is one week on  and one week off, so there are long periods when he doesn't have time to be online.

It would be good to have it made clear just what Maxwell teaches and what the implications are of his teachings and what the objections are to his teachings. It would be less confusing for the readers and less effort for Stan and Slingshot to not have to answer posts from several people. It would be best if the discussion doesn't become a free for all debate. Slingshot and Stan have studied Maxwell's writings in some detail. Slingshot tends to support Maxwell and Stan is decidedly against. I think it would be helpful to see what they have to say about his teachings which have become a devisive problem in some Adventist churches.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 21, 2010, 02:17:15 PM
Hi Stan:

The proof texts that you cite certainly demonstrate that:

1) God hates sin. I agree with you on this.

2) The death of Jesus was necessary for us to be reconciled to God. I agree with you on this.

We disagree on why the Atonement was necessary, how it works, and what it did.

In medical terms, I believe the treatment you propose (substitionary atonement) will not cure the disease (the problem of sin), across the universe.

So, what I would like to do is describe my views on the following topics all involve the Atonement.  

1) The basis of the sin problem;

2) What it is that God desires;

3) How God treats sinners; and

4) God's solution to the sin problem.

This approach differs from the proof text method. If we follow that approach, we'll just pepper each other with single texts devoid of context. For example, thus far you've essentially presented many texts that about the shedding of blood. I agree that Jesus' death was necessary but I disagree with you about why it was necessary. The texts that you cite support my view just as well as they do yours as I will explain.  

I ask that you put aside your preconceptions and look at the evidence. I'll do the same. Fair enough?

A final note: I am not Graham Maxwell. I am not an expert on his views though I think that I understand them fairly well. My purpose in writing is not to vindicate him but to show the beautiful picture of God's character that I understand the Bible teaches.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 21, 2010, 02:46:43 PM
The Origin of the Sin Problem

Sin began in heaven with Lucifer, who has the distinction (probably the wrong word) of being the first being to ever sin. But what is sin?

The Bible defines sin in several ways:

1) Everything that is not based on trust in God is sin -- "everything that does not come from faith is sin." Romans 14:23;

2) Sin is breaking God's law -- "Sin is the transgression of the law." I John 3:3-5 and

3) Sin is a spirit lawlessness and rebellion -- "Sin is lawlessness" I John 3:4

Lucifer refused to trust in God to provide for his needs but resolved to replace God and rule in his stead:
"You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'"

Here, we see all the different aspect of sin: lack of trust leading to breaking of the law leading to a general spirit of rebellion so strong that Lucifer can never be reconciled to God.

Lucifer deceived the angels with his lies about God and 1/3 of them followed him into rebellion. (Rev. 12:4)

God wants nothing more than loving, trusting friendship with all of His creation. Because love cannot be commanded, but must be given freely, God allowed Lucifer to take his message of self-reliance and rebellion to other worlds, including our own. (Job 1 & 2)

Adam & Eve were created in God's image. That means that they were loving, selfless, and more concerned with others than with themselves.

Just as he had in heaven, Satan lied.

God told Eve that sin would kill her. Satan said that it would not. (Gen. 3:4)

God had lovingly provided for Adam & Eve. They lacked no good thing. (Ps. 34:10)
But Satan told Eve that God forbade them from eating the fruit because "He knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God...." (Gen. 3:4)

To paraphrase this slightly, Satan said: (1) sin won't hurt you; and (2) the things that God told you not to do are really good for you. He's just trying to keep good things from you. You need to look out for yourself.

Like 1/3 of the Angels, our parents believed the lies and immediately two things happened:

1) They became afraid of God -- "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked so I hid." Gen. 3:10
2) They became obssessed with protecting themselves. Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent. (Gen. 3:11-12)

Notice what has happened because it's very important:

1) Their relationship of trust and love with God was broken and replaced by fear; and
2) The loving, giving nature they originally shared with God was replaced by a nature that is concerned with self-preservation above all else.

And we have inherited this nature from them. If we are not healed, we will die.

Well Stan, any disagreements so far?  :-)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on March 21, 2010, 03:45:23 PM
sorry... I did not know it was a private conversation.... Yes, I too have much to say about G. Max. theories
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: ejclark on March 21, 2010, 03:53:51 PM
If third party participation is not appreciated, specially since they are not referencing writings of the inspired nature, they should be personal messaging this topic between each other.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 21, 2010, 04:17:32 PM
If third party participation is not appreciated, specially since they are not referencing writings of the inspired nature, they should be personal messaging this topic between each other.

Hello EJ:

I don't have a problem with anyone else participating. I would like to get through my four main points, which will probably take a week or so. I have no objection to anyone else participating. Perhaps we could compromise and after Stan and I stake out our basic positions, you could weigh in at that time. On the other hand, if you have questions or if I'm not being clear, I would certainly like to know as soon as possible. 

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 21, 2010, 05:19:01 PM
Hello EJ:

I don't have a problem with anyone else participating. I would like to get through my four main points, which will probably take a week or so. I have no objection to anyone else participating. Perhaps we could compromise and after Stan and I stake out our basic positions, you could weigh in at that time. On the other hand, if you have questions or if I'm not being clear, I would certainly like to know as soon as possible. 


That sounds good  to me.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: ejclark on March 21, 2010, 05:25:47 PM
Your invitation is very considerate.  And I thank you very much at the gesture. 

However, I don't have a clue what Maxwell teaches, and even after you and Stan finish your discussion on the main themes and ideas, I doubt that I would have anything to contribute that would shed much if any light on the conversation.  From what I have followed so far in this thread and the other one referenced, I don't think you or Stan have a complete understanding of truth on this topic.  And please don't take that as a critical slam against yourself or Stan.  Because I can see that much, if not most, of what you and Stan believe is truth.  But according to the things I have learned from the Spirit of Prophecy, it appears to me that some things are being interjected that shouldn't be.  Again, I'm not intending to be critical.  But this topic is one that the Spirit of Prophecy tells us we will still be studying forever into eternity.  And to go into the great depths that the two of you are obviously headed, it makes no sense to me that the Spirit of Prophecy wouldn't be leaned on more heavily.  To lean on the teachings of men upon a subject that we still won't understand after we get to heaven, instead of leaning on an Inspired Prophetess makes no sense to me.

If some of my surmising is incorrect, then I apologize.  I know that sometimes the things I truly believe are not correctly understood as I have tried to portray them.  So if my views of yours and Stan's beliefs are askew, then I apologize.  I just feel that for a topic to go to the places it so far appears this one is going, and with the references the two of you will be using, I feel this should be a private discussion between the two of you and this should be kept out of "public" viewing.

If it does stay "public", who knows, maybe I'll make a comment after yours and Stan's conclusion.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 21, 2010, 05:49:09 PM
Your invitation is very considerate.  And I thank you very much at the gesture. 

However, I don't have a clue what Maxwell teaches, and even after you and Stan finish your discussion on the main themes and ideas, I doubt that I would have anything to contribute that would shed much if any light on the conversation.  From what I have followed so far in this thread and the other one referenced, I don't think you or Stan have a complete understanding of truth on this topic.  And please don't take that as a critical slam against yourself or Stan.  Because I can see that much, if not most, of what you and Stan believe is truth.  But according to the things I have learned from the Spirit of Prophecy, it appears to me that some things are being interjected that shouldn't be.  Again, I'm not intending to be critical.  But this topic is one that the Spirit of Prophecy tells us we will still be studying forever into eternity.  And to go into the great depths that the two of you are obviously headed, it makes no sense to me that the Spirit of Prophecy wouldn't be leaned on more heavily.  To lean on the teachings of men upon a subject that we still won't understand after we get to heaven, instead of leaning on an Inspired Prophetess makes no sense to me.

If some of my surmising is incorrect, then I apologize.  I know that sometimes the things I truly believe are not correctly understood as I have tried to portray them.  So if my views of yours and Stan's beliefs are askew, then I apologize.  I just feel that for a topic to go to the places it so far appears this one is going, and with the references the two of you will be using, I feel this should be a private discussion between the two of you and this should be kept out of "public" viewing.

If it does stay "public", who knows, maybe I'll make a comment after yours and Stan's conclusion.

Thanks for your gracious reply EJ!  :-D
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 22, 2010, 12:21:17 AM
I have read this thread and the other thread attached and something I find most disturbing, no one is quoting Spirit of Prophecy.

One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan's banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God's Spirit.--3SM 84 (1903).  {LDE 177.4} 
     
The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony.--1SM 48 (1890).  {LDE 177.5} 

The enemy has made his masterly efforts to unsettle the faith of our own people in the Testimonies. . . . This is just as Satan designed it should be, and those who have been preparing the way for the people to pay no heed to the warnings and reproofs of the Testimonies of the Spirit of God will see that a tide of errors of all kinds will spring into life.--3SM 83 (1890).  {LDE 178.1}

We have become such a generation of "I want to know it now", we resort to reading the "quick" answers to our questions from authors who say they have spent the time in the Bible and SOP, instead of spending the time in the Bible and SOP ourselves.  We end up glorifying other authors instead of glorifying the Gift of Prophecy in the Bible and Testimonies.

EJ,

Could you please be more specific what your concern is? If you have a problem with the author JI Packer's view of the atonement, then I want to hear it. Packer does nothing but give Biblical references to back up his view (and my view) of the atonement. Please give specific concerns about the source I quoted.

If you read the old thread on this topic and the current thread you will see that my emphasis is on what the scripture says.

Ellen White's advice was that we search the scriptures to find what God thinks of a specific subject as evidenced in the following statements:

"The Lord desires you to study your Bibles. He has not given any additional light to take the place of His Word. This light is to bring confused minds to His Word, which, if eaten and digested, is as the lifeblood of the soul. Then good works will be seen as light shining in darkness. (Letter 130, 1901.)

Get Proofs From the Bible. In public labor do not make prominent, and quote that which Sister White has written, as authority to sustain your positions. To do this will not increase faith in the testimonies. Bring your evidences, clear and plain, from the Word of God. A [p. 30] "Thus saith the Lord" is the strongest testimony you can possibly present to the people. Let none be educated to look to Sister White, but to the mighty God, who gives instruction to Sister White. (Letter 11, 1894.) . . .
-------------------
So, this is a public debate, and I always endeavor to use scripture.

I don't object to anyone's participation on this topic. EJ, If you want to post relevant quotes from Mrs. White, then please do so. But it is not helpful to take pot shots and criticize what has been posted without mentioning your specific concerns.

Now it looks like you backed off of this on your latest post which is fine, but I would still like more clarification.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 22, 2010, 12:33:20 AM
Your invitation is very considerate.  And I thank you very much at the gesture. 

However, I don't have a clue what Maxwell teaches, and even after you and Stan finish your discussion on the main themes and ideas, I doubt that I would have anything to contribute that would shed much if any light on the conversation.  From what I have followed so far in this thread and the other one referenced, I don't think you or Stan have a complete understanding of truth on this topic.  And please don't take that as a critical slam against yourself or Stan.  Because I can see that much, if not most, of what you and Stan believe is truth.  But according to the things I have learned from the Spirit of Prophecy, it appears to me that some things are being interjected that shouldn't be.  Again, I'm not intending to be critical.  But this topic is one that the Spirit of Prophecy tells us we will still be studying forever into eternity.  And to go into the great depths that the two of you are obviously headed, it makes no sense to me that the Spirit of Prophecy wouldn't be leaned on more heavily.  To lean on the teachings of men upon a subject that we still won't understand after we get to heaven, instead of leaning on an Inspired Prophetess makes no sense to me.

If some of my surmising is incorrect, then I apologize.  I know that sometimes the things I truly believe are not correctly understood as I have tried to portray them.  So if my views of yours and Stan's beliefs are askew, then I apologize.  I just feel that for a topic to go to the places it so far appears this one is going, and with the references the two of you will be using, I feel this should be a private discussion between the two of you and this should be kept out of "public" viewing.

If it does stay "public", who knows, maybe I'll make a comment after yours and Stan's conclusion.

I don't claim to have all the answers in this debate, that is why I welcome input from anyone who wants to participate.

The greatest event in history--the death and resurrection of Christ- must be approached with great awe and reverence.

We must humbly study God's Word, and be faithful to the text. We must take at face value what God says, and not inject human philosophy which takes away from what is being said. If God says "that without the shedding of blood is no remission of sin", then I must accept this, without trying to explain it away.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 22, 2010, 12:41:07 AM
Slingshot,

I will get to your questions later in the week.

Thanks for your participation and I pray that this discussion will be fruitful.

Stan

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 22, 2010, 03:55:07 AM
OK. I wrote my second post in the series and then accidentally deleted part of it.  :x

I'll try to repost it in its entirety soon.

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 22, 2010, 04:32:49 AM
I don't claim to have all the answers in this debate, that is why I welcome input from anyone who wants to participate.

The greatest event in history--the death and resurrection of Christ- must be approached with great awe and reverence.

We must humbly study God's Word, and be faithful to the text. We must take at face value what God says, and not inject human philosophy which takes away from what is being said. If God says "that without the shedding of blood is no remission of sin", then I must accept this, without trying to explain it away.

Stan

Stan:

I am not explaining it away. I am trying to explain what it means.

For that matter, you are trying to explain what it means. The text simply says that the shedding of blood is necessary for the remission of sins but it does not explain why it is necessary or what the shed blood does.

I "accept" this text just as much as do you. I just understand it to mean something different than you do.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: ejclark on March 23, 2010, 06:57:04 PM
EJ,

Could you please be more specific what your concern is? If you have a problem with the author JI Packer's view of the atonement, then I want to hear it.
Something that is becoming increasingly popular in mainstream Christianity, is that the "Sin Problem" was completely taken care of at the cross.  And unfortunately, some of the teachings that goes along with "Everything was finished at the cross" has crept into a few Adventist circles.

The views of Mr. Packer that you have posted so far seem to be heading in this same direction.  Maybe I'm reading too much into this and maybe you will be covering this during a later post, but it seems that Mr. Packer might not believe in the Investigative Judgment and its relation to the atonement.

Though the cross is a very important aspect of the atonement, the atonement has just as much attachment to the Investigative Judgment.

In times past, I have been told that you, Stan, don't believe in the Investigative Judgment.  If this is not true, and you do plan in later posts to associate the atonement to the Investigative Judgment, then my concerns are much less than before. 

If you are going to quote mostly from Mr. Packer and if those things are not going to give any association of the atonement to the Investigative Judgment, then it's in my opinion that the moderators of this forum have the right, if they wish to do so as "thy brothers keeper", to request this topic be private.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 24, 2010, 05:00:09 AM
Something that is becoming increasingly popular in mainstream Christianity, is that the "Sin Problem" was completely taken care of at the cross.  And unfortunately, some of the teachings that goes along with "Everything was finished at the cross" has crept into a few Adventist circles.

The views of Mr. Packer that you have posted so far seem to be heading in this same direction.  Maybe I'm reading too much into this and maybe you will be covering this during a later post, but it seems that Mr. Packer might not believe in the Investigative Judgment and its relation to the atonement.

Though the cross is a very important aspect of the atonement, the atonement has just as much attachment to the Investigative Judgment.

In times past, I have been told that you, Stan, don't believe in the Investigative Judgment.  If this is not true, and you do plan in later posts to associate the atonement to the Investigative Judgment, then my concerns are much less than before. 

If you are going to quote mostly from Mr. Packer and if those things are not going to give any association of the atonement to the Investigative Judgment, then it's in my opinion that the moderators of this forum have the right, if they wish to do so as "thy brothers keeper", to request this topic be private.

EJ:

I think that we'll get to this issue a little later in the discusison. I hope to post a bit more this evening.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 24, 2010, 08:59:46 AM
EJ:

I think that we'll get to this issue a little later in the discusison. I hope to post a bit more this evening.

Slingshot,

Could you please give us an overview of why you think that Maxwell's view of the atonement is more Biblical than the traditional view of the atonement which I hold and have summarized earlier?  What problem do you have with the idea that Christ died to pay the penalty due us for our sins, and that it required the shedding of the blood of Christ to effect this.

I think it might be helpful in the interest of fairness to give you a chance to present a full overview of what you believe. If I have been unfair in representing Maxwell's views, then maybe you can help me out. It could be that I am just not getting what you and Maxwell are talking about.

You mentioned that there was a problem with using the proof texts that I gave, so I would like to know what problem you have with the particular texts that I used?

Stan

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 24, 2010, 10:06:57 AM
Slingshot,

Could you please give us an overview of why you think that Maxwell's view of the atonement is more Biblical than the traditional view of the atonement which I hold and have summarized earlier?  What problem do you have with the idea that Christ died to pay the penalty due us for our sins, and that it required the shedding of the blood of Christ to effect this.

A substitionary atonement cannot be made to fit into the plan of salvation, which involves restoring the relationship between God and man. The substitionary atonement model cannot be reconciled with God's character, which is selfless love. I think that this is pretty clear Biblically when one considers the entire Biblical record.

I think it might be helpful in the interest of fairness to give you a chance to present a full overview of what you believe. If I have been unfair in representing Maxwell's views, then maybe you can help me out. It could be that I am just not getting what you and Maxwell are talking about.

Thanks for saying that. I don't think that you do fully understand Maxwell's position. It's not a "soft on sin" view that encouraged disobedience. It's actually a much more nuanced view and has a much stronger Scriptural basis than I think you're aware of. I'll do my best to clarify it over the next few days.

You mentioned that there was a problem with using the proof texts that I gave, so I would like to know what problem you have with the particular texts that I used?

I don't have any problem with the texts at all. I just disagree with you about what they mean. You're reading them from a substitionary perspective. When you read them, they all say "substitionary atonement" in your mind. I don't think that's what those texts really mean in their proper context.

If we just quote texts here and there without looking at all of what the Bible has to say on a topic, then we can get all kinds of things wrong. Just consider the story of the Rich Man & Lazarus. If I try and explain that Jesus really didn't mean that story to be taken literally am I ignoring that passage? Of course not. I'm merely explaining it by using other Scripture. That's what I propose to try and do. 


Stan


Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on March 24, 2010, 12:16:20 PM
why don't you just all present things as you understand them without any names attached ... and we go from there?
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 24, 2010, 12:24:11 PM
why don't you just all present things as you understand them without any names attached ... and we go from there?

That's my goal. But it will likely take me a few days.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 24, 2010, 04:31:31 PM
why don't you just all present things as you understand them without any names attached ... and we go from there?
Newbie, the only problem with that is that the original purpose of the discussion was to make as clear as possible exactly what Graham Maxwell teaches and what the objections are that people have to those teachings. Maxwell's teachings have become a big issue in some places. The problem seems to be that people have a hard time dealing with it because few, if any have ever been able to explain exactly what it is that he teaches. Slingshot has said he has a pretty good grasp of Maxwell. The atonement is the central part of his teaching, but apparantly there are other aspects as well.
Also, there are no rules against quoting authors. There is a rule that the teachings of the church must not be attacked, and EGW must not be attacked. It is perfectly OK to quote non-Adventist authors provided it is within the stated guidelines.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on March 24, 2010, 06:45:00 PM
I understand Larry...  okay...  I think I understand the view and what it is based upon.  I will take a back seat now.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 24, 2010, 09:19:52 PM
I understand Larry...  okay...  I think I understand the view and what it is based upon.  I will take a back seat now.
Don't take a "back seat." My point was only that we need to understand what Maxwell's views are and what the scriptural problems are with his views. It seems that usually when people present objections to his teaching, the response from those who support his teachings are "You are not understanding what he teaches." It has always been a red flag for me that a prominent Adventist Bible scholar such as Maxwell is apparantly is unable to make himself clear to so many people. I think it is important to look at since it is a divisive issue in some churches. We need to know how to deal with it if we have to.

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 25, 2010, 03:27:47 AM
Don't take a "back seat." My point was only that we need to understand what Maxwell's views are and what the scriptural problems are with his views. It seems that usually when people present objections to his teaching, the response from those who support his teachings are "You are not understanding what he teaches." It has always been a red flag for me that a prominent Adventist Bible scholar such as Maxwell is apparantly is unable to make himself clear to so many people. I think it is important to look at since it is a divisive issue in some churches. We need to know how to deal with it if we have to.

Larry, I am glad that you're going into this with an open mind.  :-D
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Dora on March 25, 2010, 08:46:27 AM
Please do proceed here! This topic is so timely for myself, as I am seeing some bad things happen in our church because of Maxwell's teachings. We just lost a dear pastor because of it, and another is coming in who supposedly has more experience in dealing with such things...also, our former pastor came to the church with no knowledge of what was happening, and it has grown out of his control, no matter how hard he tried. The new one knows what is happening, and has the support of the conference. But, it is the head elder who is promoting Maxwell, and he has quite a following. As Ellen White said, "I tremble for our church," we need prayer. The more I can learn on here, along with other studies, the more knowledgeable I will be about this matter.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 25, 2010, 09:20:52 AM
Please do proceed here! This topic is so timely for myself, as I am seeing some bad things happen in our church because of Maxwell's teachings. We just lost a dear pastor because of it, and another is coming in who supposedly has more experience in dealing with such things...also, our former pastor came to the church with no knowledge of what was happening, and it has grown out of his control, no matter how hard he tried. The new one knows what is happening, and has the support of the conference. But, it is the head elder who is promoting Maxwell, and he has quite a following. As Ellen White said, "I tremble for our church," we need prayer. The more I can learn on here, along with other studies, the more knowledgeable I will be about this matter.

Hi Dora:

I hpe that you'll be able to approach this topic with an open mind. Whilie I am no expert, I hope to show that Maxwell's views as I understand them are solidly scriptural. Thanks for your interest.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: V. Hahn on March 25, 2010, 10:28:18 AM
Larry, I am glad that you're going into this with an open mind.  :-D

I just hope our minds aren't so open that our brains fall out!   :|
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 25, 2010, 11:03:57 AM
Larry, I am glad that you're going into this with an open mind.  :-D
Slingshot, I knew you would appreciate my unbiased stand.  :-D
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 25, 2010, 11:10:19 AM
I just hope our minds aren't so open that our brains fall out!   :|
Vickie, keep an eye out for leaking brains, and sound the alarm when necessary.  :-)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 25, 2010, 01:24:33 PM
I hope to post more later in the week, but I did run across this interview of Maxwell by one of his sidekicks "Jonathan Gallagher":


http://www.pineknoll.org/graham/wdjhtd.html

So at least we can analyze Maxwell directly by what he has to say about the death of Christ in this interview. I haven't got a chance to read this, but I will when I get a chance.

Stan


Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Dora on March 25, 2010, 03:41:01 PM
I was not aware that the teaching of the question of "God's Character" as has been focused on by Graham Maxwell, was so widespread in our churches until I found that Steve Wohlberg has written a book about it. The name of the book is "The Character of God Controversy." I have it and am over half way through it.

Also, if you would like to hear them, Steve Wohlberg has sermons on "The Character of God Controversy," on Audioverse. The link to those is here:

http://www.audioverse.org/people/236/steve-wohlberg.html

I have found these very helpful.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Raven on March 25, 2010, 04:36:00 PM
I just hope our minds aren't so open that our brains fall out!   :|

Now you're starting to sound like Pastor O'Ffill.  :-o  :-D
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 25, 2010, 09:50:17 PM
I was not aware that the teaching of the question of "God's Character" as has been focused on by Graham Maxwell, was so widespread in our churches until I found that Steve Wohlberg has written a book about it. The name of the book is "The Character of God Controversy." I have it and am over half way through it.

Also, if you would like to hear them, Steve Wohlberg has sermons on "The Character of God Controversy," on Audioverse. The link to those is here:

http://www.audioverse.org/people/236/steve-wohlberg.html

I have found these very helpful.

http://www.audioverse.org/sermons/recordings/1427/the-character-of-god-controversy-question-and-answer-session.html

Dora,
I have just been listening to the above audio and it is excellent on this. Wohlberg takes issues with the Maxwellian view that God does not punish or kill. He uses Romans 13 effectively in his argument. Wohlberg is an effective communicator.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Dora on March 26, 2010, 06:02:00 AM
Yes, Stan, everyone who is being exposed to the Maxwell theories should also hear these sermons by Wohlberg, and read his book.  Unfortunately, the man who is promoting Maxwell in our church just brushes all this aside, saying he already knows all this, and that it is presented wrong. Glad it was a help on here. Hopefully, others will listen to them. When the error is plain and easily discerned, it is not going to be so quickly accepted.  But, the errors in this teaching are so mixed in with truth...well, I am seeing people in our church accept it, saying, "well, I don't see anything wrong in that." If someone presents these theories who knows how to talk, and if they have previously won the trust of the people, it is hard for the error to be seen. Very, very dangerous. Pray for our church!! Our churches everywhere!!
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 26, 2010, 07:14:47 AM
Yes, Stan, everyone who is being exposed to the Maxwell theories should also hear these sermons by Wohlberg, and read his book.  Unfortunately, the man who is promoting Maxwell in our church just brushes all this aside, saying he already knows all this, and that it is presented wrong. Glad it was a help on here. Hopefully, others will listen to them. When the error is plain and easily discerned, it is not going to be so quickly accepted.  But, the errors in this teaching are so mixed in with truth...well, I am seeing people in our church accept it, saying, "well, I don't see anything wrong in that." If someone presents these theories who knows how to talk, and if they have previously won the trust of the people, it is hard for the error to be seen. Very, very dangerous. Pray for our church!! Our churches everywhere!!

Hi Dora:

First some comments and then a couple of questions.

I have read Wohlberg's book thoroughly.

He doesn't understand Maxwell's position.

He essentially misrepresents Maxwell's arguments and then knocks the misrepresentations down.

What do you understand Maxwell's ideas to be and why do you find them so dangerous?

Thank you. 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Dora on March 26, 2010, 08:20:34 AM
Slingshot,
I guess there must be something lacking in both mine and Wohlberg's understanding of Maxwell's position, because I don't understand him, either. No, it is not for lack of trying, or lack of being exposed to Maxwell's theology. I have been friends with our head elder and with his mother (now deceased) for years. She and I did not discuss Maxwell that much, because she knew how I thought about his teachings, but her son has never been inhibited about discussing Maxwell's theology (which is what he calls 'near and dear to his heart') by the hour, and we have.  Over the years, and on numerous occasions, we have talked, tried to reason together, I suppose I have heard every argument that exists for Maxwell's beliefs. Also, I have read his book online, and have listened to one or two SS lessons. I tell you this so you will not think it is simply prejudice, or not having any information, for it is neither.

I find Maxwell's theology to be dangerous because it is not what is taught by the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. As the burden of proof of his theology being right, seems to rest on you, Slingshot, we would appreciate your telling us exactly what you have gotten from Maxwell's theology? Please tell us about the cross? I read what Maxwell said, about "Why did Jesus have to die?" But, it really tells me nothing.  WAS Jesus my substitute or not?  DID He take my sins or not?  Does a righteous God get angry over sin? Does God ever kill? Or does He just allow it to happen? Is God to be looked at just like any other friend? Or my Heavenly Buddy?

No, Slingshot, I do not want God to be "just my Buddy in the sky." I want Him to be the Heavenly Father He is. I feel that my dad was somewhat representative of God, as he was a good father, but even he was not "just my friend," he was my dad, and all it took from him was a look of displeasure for me to obey. No, I was not afraid of him beating me, for he never hit me. I obeyed because I loved him and desired to please him. That is how I want my God and my relationship with Him to be, and it is.

Now, will you please tell us (show us from Bible and SOP) how Maxwell's teachings are not dangerous? How do they coincide with the teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist church? If Seventh-day Adventist members desire to follow Maxwell, that is their choice, but why they feel it is their mission to give away books and literature and preach these errors that no one can understand (and I have not known anyone who can say they understand) and bring about such confusion, has to be of Satan.

At one time not long ago, I studied these doctrines, trying to understand where our elder was coming from, and the more I studied, the more confused I became. The more he and I talked, the more confused I became, until it came to me, "Confusion and chaos is of Babylon, why study Babylon?"

But, please, dear Slingshot, you offered to put a case on here, explaining Maxwell, and his theology. I am willing to read it.  Thank you in advance for your efforts, I will pray for you, honestly, I will. I will look forward, also, to Stan's answers.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 26, 2010, 11:17:21 AM

 I read what Maxwell said, about "Why did Jesus have to die?" But, it really tells me nothing.  WAS Jesus my substitute or not?  DID He take my sins or not?  Does a righteous God get angry over sin? Does God ever kill? Or does He just allow it to happen? Is God to be looked at just like any other friend? Or my Heavenly Buddy?


Well said Dora.  I did get a chance to read Maxwell being interviewed by Gallagher at this link:

http://www.pineknoll.org/graham/wdjhtd.html

Slingshot,

Does Maxwell represent himself correctly in this interview, and do you agree with what he is saying in his answers?

First of all, Maxwell never quotes directly from any particular scripture in the entire interview. He uses vague references to the "entire 66 books" as helping us determine what the character of God is like. He alludes to Colossians 1 and Ephesians 1 and 3 without even quoting these references in their context. At least in the JI Packer article I quoted, every statement of his is backed up by several direct scriptural references. We see no direct scriptural references listed by chapter and verse.

I don't know where to start in critiquing the interview. Maxwell's views are simply unbiblical at best, and blasphemous at worst. There is nothing said about the wrath of God. It is a very warm and fuzzy interview about our "Daddy in the sky".

I will try to analyze this interview systematically and with Biblical references to back up why I feel this way about Mawell, as I get time this weekend.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 26, 2010, 11:58:16 AM
Quoting from the interview:  The questions Gallagher asks are in bold type

Why did Jesus have to die? That's the basic question. First of all, is that the right question to ask?

I've asked that of my students for forty-five years. Bright ones will often respond by questioning the question--which I encourage them to do. Always challenge the question before you start answering it. It may not be a worthy question at all. Did he have to die?

That is exactly the emphasis I'd like to put there: Did Jesus have to die?

I'm thinking of it in terms of the fact that there simply was no other way.

Why not?

Can you think any other way to accomplish what had to be done? No doubt God would have used some other method if there could have been some other way. But I think until we discuss what's gone wrong--and needs to be righted--only then can one evaluate what he did, and whether it succeeded in righting what went wrong. You see, with so many, what's gone wrong is that we have broken the rules and we're in legal trouble. We have made a fatal mistake, and we are doomed--not just to die; we are doomed not just to be executed; we are doomed to be punished and then executed.

Now if that's the case, what I'm looking for is what I must do to escape such a penalty. And the Lord says, "Just believe, only believe." Believe what? "I have arranged for that penalty to be paid for," and you get into the whole idea of legal substitution.
----------------------------------------------

Just the tone of the above statement shows a triteness in the way he deals with the basic problem. Maxwell says "You see, with so many, what's gone wrong is that we have broken the rules and we're in legal trouble. We have made a fatal mistake, and we are doomed--not just to die; we are doomed not just to be executed; we are doomed to be punished and then executed.
Now if that's the case, what I'm looking for is what I must do to escape such a penalty. And the Lord says, "Just believe, only believe." Believe what? "I have arranged for that penalty to be paid for," and you get into the whole idea of legal substitution."

He seems to make light of and make a caricature of what his opposition view is. This is really sad. He also does not believe that God will literally punish sinners for a duration of time before destroying them.

Let's compare Maxwell to Paul and Jesus

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Paul declares what the gospel is:

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
-----------------------------------------------

When Jesus instituted the ordinance of the Lords Supper, he stated very simply the purpose of His death in Matthew 26:27,28:

27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
-------------------------------

What could be clearer than this? This is the simple truth of the gospel that was foretold by Isaiah 53

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

--------------------
Verse 10 is a clear contradiction to Maxwell, as will be seen later.

Of course, Maxwell doesn't deal with these plain scriptures.

Ah, it is so simple that even a child can understand, but there are certain intellectuals that don't want to take the Bible for what it says and only believe and receive it. I know, because I was around those types who were my friends and colleagues in medicine at Loma Linda.

Stan



Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 26, 2010, 10:07:40 PM
What God Wants of Us, Part I

In my last post, I discussed my understanding of the origin of the sin problem. To summarize, sin is a lack of trust in God and a spirit of rebellion that leads to breaking God
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 26, 2010, 10:09:42 PM
...continued from Part I

Well, I hope that those Scriptures established that God wants us to know Him.

But why does God want us to know him so badly? Why does knowing Him lead to eternal life as Jesus said in John 17:3?

Think back to Eden and the root of the sin problem: Satan, the "father of lies," lied to our parents about God and they believed the lie. (Genesis 3:1-12) When they believed the lie, they lost their trust in God and disobeyed.

With this, their picture of God completely changed. When God came looking for them, they hid because they were naked and afraid. Genesis 3:10. It
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 27, 2010, 05:11:04 AM
What God Wants of Us, Part II

In my last post, I tried to show how God earnestly desires that we know Him. Why? Well, this knowledge of God is the only thing that can lead us to faith, or trust. (the Greek word translated
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 28, 2010, 10:47:49 AM
Here is more of the Maxwell interview:

But doesn't Ellen White use the phrase quite often, when she's speaking of the atonement, that Christ came to demonstrate the immutability of the Law?

Oh yes. I agree with that one hundred per cent. His death did indeed demonstrate the immutability of the Law. But then you have to go back and ask what the Law requires. The most helpful thing, I find, is to consider what went wrong. Since the Reformation (and before, of course) we have been largely preoccupied with the thought that what went wrong is that I am in legal trouble--and you too--and God has graciously made provision to take care of this. In my opinion, such preoccupation with ones legal standing is the essence of legalism. It is self-centred and even rather childish--but understandable in a little child, who tends not to think about the people next door. He wonders first about himself--like the little song the children sing that has "Me, me, me" in it.

Paul discussed this problem in Hebrews where he says that though by now you ought to be teachers, you still need milk. You're still preoccupied with yourselves. And in Ephesians 4 it says we should no longer act like little children but grow up. And as we grow up, one of the marks of maturing is that we become more and more aware of other people and of a larger universe in which we live.

Now we know there is a whole vast universe of intelligent beings, all involved in what went wrong, sinless angels included. The book of Revelation was given to help us see that larger view. And what went wrong in the universe went wrong before we humans ever came into existence, and God proposed to set it right. We know that he created this world to provide the setting within which he would set things right. So we are a spectacle to the whole universe, as here on this world God did the things that set the universe right again--whether we humans are saved or not.
-----------------------------------------------------
Here again Maxwell appears to be ridiculing as "childish" the notion of the substitutionary death of Christ. He even pretends to believe in Ellen White's views but quotes her loosely and out of context and ignores the vast body of evidence in Desire of Ages which would contradict his views.

Maxwell says  "His death did indeed demonstrate the immutability of the Law. But then you have to go back and ask what the Law requires.

Romans 6:23 answers Maxwell very directly:

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Just this text alone has to mean that Jesus' death was substitutionary. This whole concept was taught through the entire sacrificial system. To restore right standing to those who are redeemed, it was necessary for Christ to die to satisfy the demands of a broken law. Jesus endured the very wrath of God in our place. There is no other way to candy coat the gospel.

Romans 1:18

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

And this wrath of God will be manifested in an active way in the last judgment day in the lake of fire as Paul says in Romans 2:5,6:

 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

The wrath of God and a God who actively pours out His wrath on unrepentant sinners is an inconvenient truth to the Maxwellians, as is the truth that God in the person of Christ took upon Himself the wrath that was due the redeemed.

Slingshot, correct me on whether Maxwell does or does not believe in a literal active punishment of the wicked?

Also you have made a good start in your first few posts stating the positive side of the gospel, but we'll be waiting for the rest of the sin problem solution in the gospel according to Maxwell.

Stan

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 28, 2010, 03:58:58 PM

Romans 6:23 answers Maxwell very directly:

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hello Stan:

This text says nothing about God killing sinners.


Just this text alone has to mean that Jesus' death was substitutionary.

No, it doesn't. You are reading that conclusion into the text. That text basically says that sin leads to death. That is true.  God said that in Genesis. "If you eat it, you will die." He did not say, "If you eat it, I will punish you and then kill you." There is a difference.

This whole concept was taught through the entire sacrificial system.

I agree that the sacrificial system was a teaching tool. I do not think that its main lesson was that God is kind and loving but that if you don't love Him in return, He will first punish you and then kill you.

To restore right standing to those who are redeemed, it was necessary for Christ to die to satisfy the demands of a broken law.

The Bible says that Abraham's right standing with God was restored through faith not through satisfying the demands of the law.

I agree that Jesus had to die but not that His death changed God's attitude toward us.


Jesus endured the very wrath of God in our place.

Jesus did endure God's wrath but not in our place as a substitute.

There is no other way to candy coat the gospel.

The word "gospel" means good news. I don't think that the choice of "love God or  He will punish" you is "good news." Nor is that what the Bible teaches.

Romans 1:18

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

And this wrath of God will be manifested in an active way in the last judgment day in the lake of fire as Paul says in Romans 2:5,6:

 
Slingshot, correct me on whether Maxwell does or does not believe in a literal active punishment of the wicked?

If by that you mean hellfire as punishment I don't believe that he does and neither do I.

Also you have made a good start in your first few posts stating the positive side of the gospel, but we'll be waiting for the rest of the sin problem solution in the gospel according to Maxwell.

Correctly understood, even God's wrath is part of the Gospel -- i.e., it's "good news."

I am sorry that it's taking me so long to get the posts up but I am very busy and I am trying to be thorough. Thanks for your patience.
Stan


Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 28, 2010, 08:32:39 PM
Slingshot,

In your quoting of my last post you left out this text:
Romans 2:5,6:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


------------------

I am having difficulty reconciling the very clear scripture above with this statement of yours:

Slingshot, correct me on whether Maxwell does or does not believe in a literal active punishment of the wicked?

If by that you mean hellfire as punishment I don't believe that he does and neither do I.
----------------
So, in your view, how will God punish the wicked and how do you deal with Revelation which says that evildoers will have their part in the Lake of Fire which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death?

Do you believe that Hitler and Bin Laden will escape a painful final punishment before their death? Would this be your view of a just God who would not actively punish evil people like this?

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 28, 2010, 09:14:00 PM
Here is another statement from Maxwell which is troubling:

"The Devil has been trying to put God in a very bad light--"arbitrary, exacting, vengeful, unforgiving, and severe." I think we can tell what the accusations are by looking at the answers. The Bible is full of demonstrations that God is just the opposite: he
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 28, 2010, 09:30:04 PM
Now some New Testament texts on the vengeance of God: (just a few more OT texts first)

Micah 5:15 (King James Version)

 15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

---------------------

Nahum 1:2 (King James Version)

 2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
------------------------
Romans 3:5 (King James Version)

 5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance?

-----------------

Romans 12:19 (King James Version)

 19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

------------------------
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (King James Version)

 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

-----------------------
Hebrews 10:30 (King James Version)

 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
------------------
Jude 1:7 (King James Version)

 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
---------------------------


So yes slingshot and other Maxwellians, we MUST obey the gospel or suffer the wrath and vengeance of God. Sorry if you don't want to accept a God who is this arbitrary, but that is what the scripture says.


How in the world can Maxwell make statements about God not being vengeful, or even at times arbitrary?

There is a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. We have an escape from the wrath to come by trusting in Christ our Rock for salvation. But if we reject this Rock, then that Rock will fall on us in fearful judgment.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2010, 11:06:21 AM
I would like to post some more analysis of Maxwell's interview with Gallagher while waiting for Slingshot to post further.

I have found so many problems with the concepts of Maxwell. It had been a very long time ago, that I last read any of his material or listened to his tapes, but I am more convinced now than ever, that Maxwellism is "another gospel" and needs to be exposed as being "a doctrine of demons" which Paul wrote to Timothy about and warned about. I cannot believe that this doctrine has been so well received in the Adventist church. Part of this could be due to the fact that his father is "Uncle Arthur" the author of those colorful Bible studies for kids.

Here is another exchange;

What would you say to people who say God is the one who defines his law--that's an expression of his character--and part of his law is that sinners have to die?

That it's arbitrary? He just made it that way? Well, I think then that one does have to go back. One could handle that trivially, but I think it's serious. One does have to go back and consider the subject of freedom, that apparently God values nothing higher than freedom, and he has opted for freedom--he could have run the Universe another way. He has evidently opted for freedom, regardless of the price. Now you cannot have freedom without order, and we all know that from experience. Nor also, I would say, without self-discipline. Trust, trustworthiness--you can't have freedom without that, it's been confirmed. Now it also follows that if we choose to be disorderly, and untrustworthy, and unloving, there will be destructive consequences both in this life, and terribly to come. But not at the hands of our gracious God--all he has to do is to leave us to reap the consequences of our disorderliness. And we've seen that from experience too. We know that.

God has determined to run a free Universe. He has refused to budge on that. Now the interesting thing is that if we all lived as described in the Decalogue, there would be perfect security, perfect freedom. Everybody can be trusted; nobody cheats, steals or tells a lie; nobody even wants to sin; everybody loves everybody else, and love is patient, kind, and all those other good things. And that's why if God changes that law at all, freedom will be diminished. The guarantee of eternal freedom is that God will forever run his universe as described in the Ten Commandments.
--------------------------------

Again, as usual in his comments there are half-truths.  But this statement of his:

 Now it also follows that if we choose to be disorderly, and untrustworthy, and unloving, there will be destructive consequences both in this life, and terribly to come. But not at the hands of our gracious God--all he has to do is to leave us to reap the consequences of our disorderliness. And we've seen that from experience too. We know that.
-----------------------------
This statement is a direct denial of all those scriptures I posted above about how God will execute vengeance and wrath on the wicked. They will only suffer the consequences of their own actions. No punishment by God!

Isn't this just incredulous and dangerous teaching?

Here is another statement on the punishment of the wicked by Maxwell:

Unless you want to say that the punishment of the wicked in the fire at the end (which would require a miracle to preserve them in the flames) is going to discipline the onlooking Universe, and make sure that sin does not arise again. If God then can accomplish peace and unity by terrifying people, he might just as well have done it in the beginning and Jesus did not need to die.
--------------------

To be continued on the next post




Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2010, 11:07:31 AM
It is interesting that Maxwell can get away with directly contradicting Ellen White who writes so clearly in Great Controversy that 'some would suffer in the flames of the lake of fire for only an instant, while others must suffer many days, and the devil must suffer long beyond that. Maxwell and his followers do not believe that God will literally punish sinners.

Also the general belief of Maxwellians is that it is very difficult for a person to be lost as Maxwell says here:

"God makes it as hard as possible to be lost."

Dan Smith, former pastor at La Sierra University, and another follower of Maxwell, wrote in his book "Lord, I have a question" :

'All one has to do to be saved is to want to go to heaven. The only people who will be lost are those who just say to God 'I don't want to go' .

How do these views square with what Jesus said in Matthew 7?

Jesus warns us in Matthew 7:13-15:

3 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

-----------------------------

Maxwell and other false teachers are leading folks down the broad path that leads to destruction. Sorry if this is seems uncharitable, but anyone who tries to subtract from the whole truth of scripture and giving their followers a false sense of security are doing just that.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2010, 11:31:12 AM
The last comments I will make on Maxwell's interview have to do with the idea of playing down the importance of the shedding of the blood of Christ and de- emphasizing the blood atonement as Maxwell does in this exchange:


So what about the blood in the making of the atonement which is so often spoken of in that audio-visual system, as you describe it? What role does the "blood of Christ" play in this atoning?

The emphasis on blood itself--if only we could rediscover what it meant to them in the beginning...Now we know what it became in due course of time...I saw an advertisement for a book this week--I was tempted to get it--it's a whole history of blood atonement in paganism, and other religions as well as Christianity. Blood has been used all through history, "in many and various ways." The Bible refers to the blood; I just want the truth about it. What is the meaning of his shedding of his blood? It really means he died. He died. So we want to talk about his death. It's interesting that if we talk and talk and talk about the significance of his death and don't use the word "blood," some say you don't believe in a "blood atonement." That's extraordinary to me. It's as if there really was "power in the blood," which is haematolatry.
----------------------

He calls the Biblical view "haemotolatry" or a form of idolatry. That is why in a Loma Linda Sabbath School class, you will not hear beautiful hymns such as "Power in the blood" There is power, power wondrous working power in the blood of the Lamb". This hymn would be heresy to these intellectuals who don't want to talk about blood of Christ.

Now let us look at a whole host of texts which emphasize the blood of Christ and the saving power of his blood.

If this was such an unimportant truth, then why does Jesus talk about the significance of his death in terms of the blood of the New Covenant?

Matthew 26:26-29

26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
--------------------
I would like to ask Maxwell:  Is it Hematoloatry or a form of idolatry to celebrate the Lord's Supper by drinking the wine which represents Christ's blood for the remission of sins? If Jesus didn't want us to continually remember the blood atonement, he would not have us do this. There is a sense in which there is power in the blood when we partake of the Lord's supper. A special blessing comes to us when we partake of the elements in commemorating what the Lord did for us in taking the punishment due us for our sins.

The Lords supper is a fulfillment of Leviticus 17:11

11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

-----------------
It is Christ's blood which makes an atonement for our souls

Much more on the blood atonement in future posts.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on March 29, 2010, 06:15:28 PM
The last comments I will make on Maxwell's interview have to do with the idea of playing down the importance of the shedding of the blood of Christ and de- emphasizing the blood atonement as Maxwell does in this exchange:


So what about the blood in the making of the atonement which is so often spoken of in that audio-visual system, as you describe it? What role does the "blood of Christ" play in this atoning?

The emphasis on blood itself--if only we could rediscover what it meant to them in the beginning...Now we know what it became in due course of time...I saw an advertisement for a book this week--I was tempted to get it--it's a whole history of blood atonement in paganism, and other religions as well as Christianity. Blood has been used all through history, "in many and various ways." The Bible refers to the blood; I just want the truth about it. What is the meaning of his shedding of his blood? It really means he died. He died. So we want to talk about his death. It's interesting that if we talk and talk and talk about the significance of his death and don't use the word "blood," some say you don't believe in a "blood atonement." That's extraordinary to me. It's as if there really was "power in the blood," which is haematolatry.
----------------------

He calls the Biblical view "haemotolatry" or a form of idolatry. That is why in a Loma Linda Sabbath School class, you will not hear beautiful hymns such as "Power in the blood" There is power, power wondrous working power in the blood of the Lamb". This hymn would be heresy to these intellectuals who don't want to talk about blood of Christ.

Now let us look at a whole host of texts which emphasize the blood of Christ and the saving power of his blood.

If this was such an unimportant truth, then why does Jesus talk about the significance of his death in terms of the blood of the New Covenant?

Matthew 26:26-29

26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
--------------------
I would like to ask Maxwell:  Is it Hematoloatry or a form of idolatry to celebrate the Lord's Supper by drinking the wine which represents Christ's blood for the remission of sins? If Jesus didn't want us to continually remember the blood atonement, he would not have us do this. There is a sense in which there is power in the blood when we partake of the Lord's supper. A special blessing comes to us when we partake of the elements in commemorating what the Lord did for us in taking the punishment due us for our sins.

The Lords supper is a fulfillment of Leviticus 17:11

11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

-----------------
It is Christ's blood which makes an atonement for our souls

Much more on the blood atonement in future posts.

Stan

Stan:

I am sorry that I have not been able to post more.

I work full time and spend about 90 minutes a day just getting back and forth to work. I preach two or three times per month and also lead two weekly Bible studies. I also teach a History course at a local college. I just don't have time to post as much as I would like. I will get around to it as soon  as I can.

In the meantime, you're ripping Maxwell when you don't understand what he's saying or why he is saying it. I can answer every point that you've made but would like to do so after I've made my case as a whole. Otherwise, we're just gonna fling proof texts at each other and not get anywhere.

I hope that you think this fair.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2010, 07:39:21 PM
Stan:

I am sorry that I have not been able to post more.

I work full time and spend about 90 minutes a day just getting back and forth to work. I preach two or three times per month and also lead two weekly Bible studies. I also teach a History course at a local college. I just don't have time to post as much as I would like. I will get around to it as soon  as I can.

In the meantime, you're ripping Maxwell when you don't understand what he's saying or why he is saying it. I can answer every point that you've made but would like to do so after I've made my case as a whole. Otherwise, we're just gonna fling proof texts at each other and not get anywhere.

I hope that you think this fair.

That is fair Slingshot. I will finish posting my concerns in the mean time, and then let you finish. Again you are saying that I am ripping Maxwell because I don't understand him or misunderstanding what he wrote.

I am only responding to his direct words in a puff piece interview he had with a friendly interviewer Gallagher, who doesn't really challenge anything he is saying. Words mean things, and I am only responding to the words of Maxwell.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2010, 08:19:55 PM
Again the article I have been referring to is here:

http://www.pineknoll.org/graham/wdjhtd.html

To continue with my concerns regarding the blood atonement, here is another Q and A exchange from the above article:

So how would you explain to people the whole idea that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission" in terms of the nature of the Father?

Well in Hebrews, where it's stated, if one reads the whole section, one notices the considerable use of Jeremiah. As the law required, there were all the sacrifices, for "without the shedding of blood there was no remission of sin"--but they never stopped to think of the meaning. But what God really wants is not sacrifice at all.

So the shedding of blood is not a precondition for God in terms of his forgiveness?

No. Then it had to be clarified and demonstrated that to obey God for the wrong reason can turn us into his enemies. That had to be shown--and God's way is not to say it will be that way but to show it will be that way. The death of Christ made that plain--shockingly plain to the onlooking Universe. And so the seeds of distrust and rebelliousness were eliminated from the Universe. Of course, there was no distrust, no rebelliousness, among the loyal ones. He was confirming their trust.
----------------------------------

Maxwell says regarding the context of Hebrews 9 where it says "without the shedding of blood is no remission":

Well in Hebrews, where it's stated, if one reads the whole section, one notices the considerable use of Jeremiah
------------------------

It looks like he is trying to skirt the issue, so let's look at the whole context of the book of Hebrews regarding the blood atonement.

And I am not going to apologize for quoting extensively the scriptures, as this is the only way we can know truth.

The whole point of the book of Hebrews is to compare the Old Covenant system of sacrifices with the fulfillment in the New Covenant.

It does help to read the pentateuch and to follow the sacrificial system narrative.

Hebrew 7 shows why the priesthood of Jesus after the order of Melchizedek was so superior.

Hebrews 7:25-27:

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
--------------------
How is it possible to miss the idea of substitution from the above text? Jesus did not need to offer up a sacrifice for his own sins, but He did need to offer up one sacrifice of Himself for sinners. The animals were slain as a substitute for the peoples' sins, so Christ was offered in our place.  Is this straightforward enough?

Hebrews 9:11-14:

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
----------------------------

How much clearer can this be? He entered the holy place by His own blood once for all to make the sacrifice for us. The blood of Christ is indeed powerful, and there is power in the blood of Christ, contrary to what Maxwell says, to "purge our consciences from dead works to serve the living God"

To be continued








Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2010, 08:40:57 PM
Continuing on in Hebrews 9:18-22

8Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
---------------------------
So Maxwell is saying that the book of Jeremiah is the context of Hebrews 9 and the above text!!  According to Maxwell:

Q: So how would you explain to people the whole idea that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission" in terms of the nature of the Father?

A: Well in Hebrews, where it's stated, if one reads the whole section, one notices the considerable use of Jeremiah.
--------------------------

Just to show you how deceptive and evasive Maxwell is, let us look at the cross references for Hebrews 9

Cross references:
Hebrews 9:1 : Exodus 25:8
Hebrews 9:2 : Exodus 26:1
Hebrews 9:2 : Exodus 25:31-39; 26:35; 40:4
Hebrews 9:2 : Exodus 25:23-29
Hebrews 9:2 : Exodus 25:30; Lev 24:5-8
Hebrews 9:3 : Exodus 26:31-33; 40:3, 21
Hebrews 9:4 : Lev 16:12, 13
Hebrews 9:4 : Exodus 25:10; 26:33; 40:3, 21; Rev 11:19
Hebrews 9:4 : Exodus 16:33, 34
Hebrews 9:4 : Num 17:10
Hebrews 9:4 : Exodus 25:16; 40:20; Deut 10:2, 5; 1 Kgs 8:9, 21; 2 Chr 5:10
Hebrews 9:5 : Exodus 25:18-22; 1 Kgs 8:6, 7
Hebrews 9:5 : Lev 16:2
Hebrews 9:6 : Num 28:3
Hebrews 9:7 : Lev 16:15, 34; Hebrews 10:3; Exodus 30:10
Hebrews 9:7 : Hebrews 5:3
Hebrews 9:8 : Hebrews 10:20; John 14:6
Hebrews 9:9 : Hebrews 7:19
Hebrews 9:10 : Lev 11:2
Hebrews 9:10 : Mark 7:4, 8; Lev 11:25
Hebrews 9:11 : Hebrews 10:1
Hebrews 9:11 : Hebrews 9:24; Hebrews 8:2
Hebrews 9:11 : Mark 14:58
Hebrews 9:12 : Hebrews 9:24
Hebrews 9:12 : Hebrews 7:27; 10:10
Hebrews 9:12 : Hebrews 10:4
Hebrews 9:12 : Acts 20:28
Hebrews 9:12 : Job 33:24; Dan 9:24; 1 Cor 6:20
Hebrews 9:13 : Lev 16:14-16
Hebrews 9:13 : Num 19:2, 17, 18
Hebrews 9:14 : Hebrews 9:12; 1 John 1:7; Rev 7:14
Hebrews 9:14 : Hebrews 7:27; 8:3
Hebrews 9:14 : Hebrews 1:3; 10:22
Hebrews 9:14 : Hebrews 6:1
Hebrews 9:14 : Rom 6:13; 1 Pet 4:2
Hebrews 9:15 : Hebrews 8:6; 12:24
Hebrews 9:15 : Hebrews 3:1; Rom 8:28
Hebrews 9:15 : Hebrews 10:36; Exodus 32:13
Hebrews 9:15 : Rom 3:24, 25; 5:6
Hebrews 9:17 : Gal 3:15
Hebrews 9:18 : Exodus 24:6, 8
Hebrews 9:19 : Hebrews 9:12
Hebrews 9:19 : Lev 14:4, 7; Num 19:6, 17
Hebrews 9:20 : Exodus 24:8; Matt 26:28
Hebrews 9:21 : Exodus 29:12, 36; Lev 8:15, 19; 16:14, 16; 2 Chr 29:22
Hebrews 9:22 : Lev 17:11
Hebrews 9:23 : Hebrews 8:5
Hebrews 9:24 : Hebrews 8:2; Hebrews 9:11
Hebrews 9:24 : Hebrews 7:25; Rom 8:34
Hebrews 9:25 : Hebrews 9:7
Hebrews 9:25 : Hebrews 10:19
Hebrews 9:26 : 1 John 3:5
Hebrews 9:26 : Hebrews 9:12; Hebrews 7:27; 10:10; 1 Pet 3:18
Hebrews 9:26 : Hebrews 1:2; 1 Cor 10:11
Hebrews 9:27 : Gen 3:19
Hebrews 9:27 : Matt 16:27
Hebrews 9:28 : Isa 53:12; 1 Pet 2:24; 3:18
Hebrews 9:28 : Matt 20:28; 26:28; Mark 10:45; Rev 5:9
Hebrews 9:28 : Acts 1:11
Hebrews 9:28 : Hebrews 4:15
Hebrews 9:28 : Titus 2:13; Isa 25:9
----------------------------

Not one reference to Jeremiah in the context of Hebrews 9!! There are some references in Hebrews 8, but not in chapter 9. Notice that the entire context of chapter 9 is really the old sacrificial system which tries to make the point that blood was necessary for cleansing from sin!

Stan

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2010, 09:00:35 PM
Continuing our study of the context of Hebrews. 

Hebrews 9:23-28:

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
-------------
If we put any credibility into scripture whatsoever, there is no mistaking the substitutionary death of Christ in the entire context of Hebrews 9. He was "once offered to bear the sins of many". This corresponds perfectly to what Jesus says on instituting the Lord's Supper in Matthew 26:28:  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And if Hebrews 9 is not enough, let us look at Hebrews 10 for more evidence:

Hebrews 10:3,4:

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
-------------------------

But it is clear that the blood of Christ does take away sins as we saw in chapter 9 and now in chapter 10

Hebrews 10:12-14:

 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
---------------------

This is the good news of the gospel and a wonderful promise. But what makes it such a wonderful and secure promise is the fact that this is an objective sacrifice and not some subjective philosophizing on what the sacrifice of Christ means.

Stan



Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2010, 10:45:17 PM
Here are some more references to the blood of Christ:

Acts 20:28 (King James Version)

 28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
---------------
We have indeed been bought with a price--the very blood of Christ.

Romans 3:25:

5Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 5:8,9

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
---------------
Above is another reference not only to being justified by His blood but saved from the wrath of God through Jesus' sacrifice. This is something else that Maxwell denies is true

1 Corinthians 11:27 (King James Version)

 27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
------------
This is a clear reference to the Lord's Supper. If according to Maxwell it is only the death of Jesus and not so much the blood of Jesus that is important, then why didn't Jesus only give us the bread to remember His body broken for us? But, no, it is also the blood that is important.

Ephesians 1:7 (King James Version)

 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
--------------------
We already have redemption (present tense) through His blood and forgiveness.

Colossians 1:14 (King James Version)

 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
----------------------
This confirms the same thought in Ephesians 1:7

Hebrews 13:12 (King James Version)

 12Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
-------------------
Another clear reference that we are sanctified by the blood of Jesus, and therefore there is power in the blood of Christ.

1 Peter 1:18-20 (King James Version)  this is good

 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
--------------------
It is the precious blood of Christ the Lamb. This is not Hematolatry as Maxwell claims.

1 John 1:7

 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

-----------------
The above shows that the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin. There is indeed power in the blood to wash away our sins.

The above text likely inspired the beautiful hymn:

'What can wash away my sins?  Nothing but the blood of Jesus'

Revelation 1:5 (King James Version)

 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 

Revelation 12:11 (King James Version)

 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I will end my analysis of Gallagher's interview with Maxwell at this point and wait for Slingshot's response

Stan

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 29, 2010, 11:05:25 PM
 Just one more text on substitutionary atonement:

1 Peter 3:18

18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
----------------------

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 30, 2010, 11:22:35 AM
Robert Parker's posts were moved to a new topic.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 01, 2010, 09:48:41 AM
many of these Maxwell theories, Fordisms, and the rest all have the same basic origins....
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Dora on April 01, 2010, 02:39:31 PM
Does some of it go back to AF Ballenger? I found something on his apostasy that sure had some of the same flavor!
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 01, 2010, 02:54:39 PM
Does some of it go back to AF Ballenger? I found something on his apostasy that sure had some of the same flavor!
I'm not familiar with this person but you may be right... 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 02, 2010, 03:15:53 AM
many of these Maxwell theories, Fordisms, and the rest all have the same basic origins....

That's a pretty serious charge. Why do you believe that to be true?
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 02, 2010, 09:32:19 AM
That's a pretty serious charge. Why do you believe that to be true?

SS... wanted to give you a chance to post what you have first...  do you have anything more for us?
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 02, 2010, 06:02:11 PM
SS... wanted to give you a chance to post what you have first...  do you have anything more for us?

Yes. I'm working on it. Thanks for your patience.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 02, 2010, 11:44:37 PM
Does some of it go back to AF Ballenger? I found something on his apostasy that sure had some of the same flavor!
Yes Dora! The New Theology teachings of today are not new in the sense that they are newly invented. They have been pressing to come into our Church for many years. People like Des Ford attempt to justify Ballenger's views, and believe that he and others were badly treated; just as Ford's followers today claim that Ford was badly treated. All of these theories are designed to do away with the Sanctuary truths.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 02, 2010, 11:48:14 PM
That's a pretty serious charge. Why do you believe that to be true?

Do you mind me answering for Newbie? They are true because they are all of Satanic origination and do not comply with either Scripture or the SOP.

Robert
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 02, 2010, 11:51:37 PM
I'm not familiar with this person but you may be right...  

Newbie,  EGW counseled him on more than one occasion. Look up Balllenger in the White Estate data base.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 07, 2010, 01:35:52 PM
Yes. I'm working on it. Thanks for your patience.

slingshot are you still there?  Some want me to go ahead but just wondered if you had something to share first.....   8-)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Dora on April 07, 2010, 03:04:57 PM
Indeed, A F Ballenger did go astray, and into apostasy, by preaching that Jesus went into the Most Holy Place when He went back to Heaven. He was one of the men who Ellen White saw in the Salamanca vision 5 months before the event occurred. (read Omega 2, chapter 6.)  BTW, are you maybe thinking of Ellen White's nephew, Frank Belden, who wrote many of our beautiful early pioneer hymns? He had a disagreement with the church about those very hymns, the copyrights, or something he thought was wrong. I would have to look up the details on him.

We have had "some of the brightest lights to go out" in our church from the beginning. Anytime that someone "rashly denied the light behind them and said that it was not God that had led them out so far...the light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight of the mark and of Jesus, and fell off the path down into the dark and wicked world below." Early Writings"p15 An angel told EW that bright light was the midnight cry given in 1844.

Apostasies in our church are not new, neither are the new theories, we are told that the Omega will be much worse than the Alpha. Is that what we are facing?
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 08, 2010, 03:07:03 AM
slingshot are you still there?  Some want me to go ahead but just wondered if you had something to share first.....   8-)

Yes. I am still here. If you could wait a bit longer, I would appreciate it. I've put in about forty hours at work this week already! I am working on my posts. Thanks.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 08, 2010, 10:19:07 PM
Hi Dora! Sorry to take so long to reply to you but I could not work out how to do so. At last I have discovered that I was not logging so could not see any reply button.

Yes, I did make a mistake in saying that Ballenger was EGWs Nephew. Indeed, it was Belden.

Robert

Indeed, A F Ballenger did go astray, and into apostasy, by preaching that Jesus went into the Most Holy Place when He went back to Heaven. He was one of the men who Ellen White saw in the Salamanca vision 5 months before the event occurred. (read Omega 2, chapter 6.)  BTW, are you maybe thinking of Ellen White's nephew, Frank Belden, who wrote many of our beautiful early pioneer hymns? He had a disagreement with the church about those very hymns, the copyrights, or something he thought was wrong. I would have to look up the details on him.

We have had "some of the brightest lights to go out" in our church from the beginning. Anytime that someone "rashly denied the light behind them and said that it was not God that had led them out so far...the light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight of the mark and of Jesus, and fell off the path down into the dark and wicked world below." Early Writings"p15 An angel told EW that bright light was the midnight cry given in 1844.

Apostasies in our church are not new, neither are the new theories, we are told that the Omega will be much worse than the Alpha. Is that what we are facing?
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 16, 2010, 07:49:01 AM
Yes. I am still here. If you could wait a bit longer, I would appreciate it. I've put in about forty hours at work this week already! I am working on my posts. Thanks.

 Slingshot, still waiting ....   
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Dora on April 16, 2010, 07:56:12 AM
I am still waiting, too! Hope you don't forget what all you have to share, Newbie..it has been a long time! We are all waiting...but, I know about busy, too, Slingshot, but you gotta' squeeze out some time, if you want to go on with this, or we may all forget what has been said, or lose the intense interest we have had.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 16, 2010, 12:28:37 PM
Slingshot, still waiting ....   

Hey Guys:

I am trying. In the last ten working days, I've been up at 3 a.m. three times, 5  a.m. 5 times and 6 a.m. twice. I have been absolutely buried. I will get to it as soon as I can.

Thanks for your patience.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 17, 2010, 04:49:16 AM
Thus far, I hope that I have established three things:

1)   The sin problem is primarily a relational problem; and
2)   God
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 17, 2010, 04:50:41 AM
[Continued from above]

So, we come to the cross. The primary purpose of the cross was not to pay a legal penalty for sin but to destroy Satan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: V. Hahn on April 17, 2010, 10:42:54 AM
"The primary purpose of the cross was not to pay a legal penalty for sin but to destroy Satan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Raven on April 17, 2010, 11:50:33 AM
Well said, Vicki.  "The wages of sin is death."  Wages must be paid.  We did not have the capital to do so.  Only Jesus could do that.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 17, 2010, 02:57:00 PM
Thus far, I hope that I have established three things:

1)   The sin problem is primarily a relational problem; and
2)   God’s goal is to restore our faith (trust) in Him;
3)   When we trust God and are willing to act on that trust, God counts as righteous.

That is the Gospel in a nutshell. Now comes the question: What role did Jesus death play in all this?


Slingshot, the above is only part of the gospel. It sounds very nice, but there is nothing about the fact that the wrath of God is to be poured out on those who do not repent. Sinners are alienated from God, because they have violated that holy law. The holiness of God demands justice and a penalty to be paid for sin. You have stated that you don't believe in literal punishment that God will inflict on sinners in the judgment of the Lake of fire.

Romans is the book of the Bible that most exhaustively deals with the gospel of salvation, and right off the bat in Romans 1 it starts out by saying that the WRATH OF GOD is to be poured out on sinners and that the whole world stands condemned to die.

Romans 1:16-19
 16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them
.

Romans 2:5,6

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
------------------------------
It is God who will mete out the punishnent of the last judgment.

The language that you and Maxwell use bothers me because it is not scriptural language, and the obvious passages of scripture which argue against your point are conveniently ignored.

I will wait for your answers regarding the "good news" about the wrath of God. That is not good news to those who will experience it

The penalty of sin is the second death--the lake of fire. Jesus experienced the equivalent of the second death for our sins so we don't have to experience the awful consequences of our disobedience.

The remedy for this condition is stated clearly in Romans 3-5, and then developed on through the end of the book.

Maxwellites do not use the language of the book of Romans or Isaiah 53, and that is the problem.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 17, 2010, 10:03:09 PM
The doctrine of the Substitutionary atonement has been a time honored truth from the early church fathers:

 The Epistle to Diognetus 9:2
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 18, 2010, 04:25:52 AM
Slingshot, the above is only part of the gospel. It sounds very nice, but there is nothing about the fact that the wrath of God is to be poured out on those who do not repent. Sinners are alienated from God, because they have violated that holy law. The holiness of God demands justice and a penalty to be paid for sin. You have stated that you don't believe in literal punishment that God will inflict on sinners in the judgment of the Lake of fire.

In Eden, God told our parents that if they ate of the tree, "You will die." That is very different from saying "If you eat of the tree, I will kill you." I do not believe that God destroys sinners at the end as an act of punishment for violating His law because that it not what the Bible teaches.

Romans is the book of the Bible that most exhaustively deals with the gospel of salvation, and right off the bat in Romans 1 it starts out by saying that the WRATH OF GOD is to be poured out on sinners and that the whole world stands condemned to die.

Romans 1:16-19
 16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them
.

Romans 2:5,6

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

You are quite correct -- God's wrath will be poured out on sinners at the end. But you have not defined what the Bible means when it speaks of God's wrath. That will be the subject of my next post.
------------------------------
It is God who will mete out the punishnent of the last judgment.

The language that you and Maxwell use bothers me because it is not scriptural language, and the obvious passages of scripture which argue against your point are conveniently ignored.

I have not ignored anything. I can address each and every text that you have raised. I have not been able to do so up to this point because I have lacked the time. I am going as fast as I can.

I will wait for your answers regarding the "good news" about the wrath of God. That is not good news to those who will experience it.

The Biblical truth about God's wrath is good news because it shows the true character of our Father. He is not vengeful or cruel. The destruction of the wicked will not be something that God does to them but something that they do to themselves.

The penalty of sin is the second death--the lake of fire. Jesus experienced the equivalent of the second death for our sins so we don't have to experience the awful consequences of our disobedience.

The remedy for this condition is stated clearly in Romans 3-5, and then developed on through the end of the book.

I agree with this statement.

Maxwellites do not use the language of the book of Romans or Isaiah 53, and that is the problem.

That is simply not correct.

I will address each and every text that you have raised.  Just because I have not addressed them does not mean that I cannot. Let me finish laying out my case and then I will address your points.


Stan

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 18, 2010, 04:42:44 AM
Slingshot, I agree with much of what you have said, but I have a problem with these lines.  Maybe I am not understanding, so can you please tell me how what you have said reconciles with these quotes from the SOP:


.......


It seems to me that justice demanded a penalty...out of God's love for us.


Hi Vickie:

Thank you for your comments and those timely quotes.

I agree with each of them. I don't think that they conflict with my views.

We are taught the substitionary view -- that Jesus paid the legal penalty for each of our sins -- so naturally we tend to read Scripture and the writings of Ellen White through that perspective.  However, there are other quotes from Ellen White that distinctly rebut the that view of the atonement.  If I may, I would like to finish laying out my case, which will include some of those quotes.

Let me see if I can put your mind at ease, at least temporarily, with a couple of points. I notice that the quotes you raised mentioned the Law quite a bit. I am not suggesting that because the atonement is not a legal atonement that the law is of no consequence.

Nothing could be further from the truth. God's law is immutable. It is a transcript of His character. Violating the law has consequences and the ultimate consequence is death. I do believe that Jesus suffered God's wrath just as would an unrepentant sinner at the end. But that does necessarily mean that the atonement involved Jesus placating a Father angry over the violation of His law.

In the last post of my case, I will try to tie all of this together.

Let me leave you with a couple of questions for thought. I am not asking that you reply, though of course you may if you like. I would at least like you to think about these, however:

1) If Jesus' death was about paying a penalty, who did He pay the penalty to?

2) Do you believe that Jesus' death changed the Father's attitude toward us?

3) Would you rather be judged by Jesus or by the Father?
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 18, 2010, 04:45:16 AM
The doctrine of the Substitutionary atonement has been a time honored truth from the early church fathers:

As were teachings in support of Sunday worship and the immortality of the soul.  The quotes below prove nothing.

 The Epistle to Diognetus 9:2
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 18, 2010, 08:31:29 AM
Quote from: slingshot
1) If Jesus' death was about paying a penalty, who did He pay the penalty to?

2) Do you believe that Jesus' death changed the Father's attitude toward us?

3) Would you rather be judged by Jesus or by the Father?

these are excellent questions.... not sure any of us really understand this in  depth

#2  yes, we were all under a death decree and Jesus came to redeem us by His life and death....  Jesus is and was always our go between to the Father (i.e. mercy seat)....  OT prefigured to the cross and NT afterward....
#3 we are really judged by Both but Jesus is in charge....
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Raven on April 18, 2010, 09:16:22 AM


Let me leave you with a couple of questions for thought. I am not asking that you reply, though of course you may if you like. I would at least like you to think about these, however:

1) If Jesus' death was about paying a penalty, who did He pay the penalty to?

2) Do you believe that Jesus' death changed the Father's attitude toward us?

3) Would you rather be judged by Jesus or by the Father?

1--I'm not sure I should be butting in at this point, but it occurs to me that it may not be necessary that the penalty be paid to anyone.  Sin demanded death, and Jesus stepped into our place and took the punishment.

2--The death of Jesus didn't change the Father's attitude toward us, it changed our status before Him from condemned rebels, to pardoned sinners.

3--It doesn't matter which I would rather have.  Scripture says that it is Jesus who will judge us.  This is the best plan because He became one of us and has an intimate knowledge of our struggles, having experienced them Himself.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 18, 2010, 09:37:50 AM
I would add a quick comment. The question "who would you rather be judged by, Jesus or the father? implies a false contrast and contains a straw man argument.  Jesus said that "I and my Father are One," The destruction of the wicked by God is an act of mercy. Destruction of Satan and all of the wicked is the only way to preserve the safety and the holiness of the universe. I do not think that it is widely believed, at least by Seventh-day Adventists, that God the Father is harsh and vengeful in contrast to Jesus, who is merciful and forgiving.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 18, 2010, 12:37:43 PM
I do not think that it is widely believed, at least by Seventh-day Adventists, that God the Father is harsh and vengeful in contrast to Jesus, who is merciful and forgiving.
In fact, Larry you have brought up the heart of the whole issue here....  the root of the problem with most of the theories about God that are partial and not complete.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 18, 2010, 05:47:18 PM
I would add a quick comment. The question "who would you rather be judged by, Jesus or the father? implies a false contrast and contains a straw man argument.  Jesus said that "I and my Father are One," The destruction of the wicked by God is an act of mercy. Destruction of Satan and all of the wicked is the only way to preserve the safety and the holiness of the universe. I do not think that it is widely believed, at least by Seventh-day Adventists, that God the Father is harsh and vengeful in contrast to Jesus, who is merciful and forgiving.

I agree Larry.

The point is that the substitionary atonement model has Jesus dying to appease God's wrath at sinful man.

In my view, it's impossible to reconcile a substitutionary atonement model with a Father, Son and Holy Spirit who all love sinners and are identical in character and purpose. I'll explain more when I get a chance to post about God's wrath.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 18, 2010, 06:06:51 PM
1--I'm not sure I should be butting in at this point, but it occurs to me that it may not be necessary that the penalty be paid to anyone.  Sin demanded death, and Jesus stepped into our place and took the punishment.

Sin is an attitude or rebellion, a lack of trust in God. It can't demand anything.

Similarly, the Law cannot demand anything.

Who is it that demands that sin be punished with death? The Father?

If that's correct, then God demanded the death of His Son so that He would not have to kill us.

Under this view, what God is saying is basically: "You stand condemned as a sinner. I've provided a way out for you and want you very much to take it. But if you don't, I will have to kill you." Force, or the threat of force, can produce fear but it can never produce what God wants, which is love and trust.


2--The death of Jesus didn't change the Father's attitude toward us, it changed our status before Him from condemned rebels, to pardoned sinners.

Sinners condemned by whom? The law? The Father? Jesus?
If the real issue of the Great Controversy is about God's character, then it seems to me that this issue of is the utmost importance.


3--It doesn't matter which I would rather have.  Scripture says that it is Jesus who will judge us.  This is the best plan because He became one of us and has an intimate knowledge of our struggles, having experienced them Himself.

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 18, 2010, 06:18:14 PM
these are excellent questions.... not sure any of us really understand this in  depth

#2  yes, we were all under a death decree and Jesus came to redeem us by His life and death....  Jesus is and was always our go between to the Father (i.e. mercy seat)....  OT prefigured to the cross and NT afterward....

The substitutionary model teaches that the Father requires us to approach Him through an intercessor. But Jesus took a different view in John 12.

25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.



#3 we are really judged by Both but Jesus is in charge....

John 5:22
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

John 12:47
 47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 18, 2010, 06:51:04 PM
I would add a quick comment. The question "who would you rather be judged by, Jesus or the father? implies a false contrast and contains a straw man argument.  Jesus said that "I and my Father are One," The destruction of the wicked by God is an act of mercy. Destruction of Satan and all of the wicked is the only way to preserve the safety and the holiness of the universe. I do not think that it is widely believed, at least by Seventh-day Adventists, that God the Father is harsh and vengeful in contrast to Jesus, who is merciful and forgiving.

Thanks Larry for pointing this out. It is easy to turn Trinitarian theology into the heresy of Tri-theism if we are not careful. It is the one God in the person of Christ who took the punishment demanded by the Law in our place. But God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself as in 2 Cor 5:

14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

 15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
 16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

------------------------
The whole passage above just abounds with the substitutionary sacrifice. There are just so many scriptures affirming the substitutionary death of Christ.

To deny the penal substitutionary atonement is to ignore so many obvious scriptures affiirming this fact.

Paul makes this statement to those who don't want to believe what the Bible has to say in 1 Cor 1:

 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

 20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

--------------------------------

The theology of Maxwell seems to appeal mostly to those who call themselves intellectuals. It thrives in academia. It seems like the intelligentsia just don't want to believe that God would require of Christ a bloody sacrifice to pay for the sins of those who are saved. To come up with other theories, one has to pick and choose scriptures, and many of times they are out of context.

Stan



Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 18, 2010, 09:20:03 PM
Quote from: slingshot
1) If Jesus' death was about paying a penalty, who did He pay the penalty to?

2) Do you believe that Jesus' death changed the Father's attitude toward us?

3) Would you rather be judged by Jesus or by the Father?
-------------------------------------------
It was Jesus who took the judgment due us in our place. But those who reject the sacrifice of Jesus will suffer the terrible wrath of God in the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
------------------------

Slingshot,
Do you believe that those who reject Christ will meet their end in the lake of fire? Or does the above text mean something else?

I think I hear you expressing the concern that people should have a choice to reject the infinite sacrifice of Christ without having to live in fear of divine wrath meted out against them?

There are so many who would just love to hear the "good news" that they are not going to suffer the wrath of God. If there is no threat of punishment, then they will be happy to be content to live with the freedom to live how they like.

The threat of punishment has the effect of restraining evil at least to some extent.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on April 19, 2010, 06:00:16 PM
I am troubled by the questions...there seems (to me) to be an underling premise to each.....

#1 Seems to me..."if" Jesus had to die for sinners....there was "payment" being made...there was a demand made on the sinner...either the sinner owes up......or...the sinner excepts the gift of God IE.....the life and death of Christ in his stead.   We may not like this arrangement....however, this is God's arrangement.

Now.......as a sinner, I must conclude that either God (Father, Christ, Holy Spirit) is just being mean and demanding or incredibly generous.....after all, it is His universe....  As was said  "sin is an attitude................and attitude will decide

#2 Why ask such a question? (Jesus changing the Father's attitude toward us)  I am interested in the thought process behind this question.  I realize, it can be unnerving that God will do His "strange act" and those who resist Him will suffer this deed......however....either we believe in His kindness, even toward those who choose not to be saved, or, we see Him in a way other than how He describes Himself (Jesus said "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father"). The human mind takes "leaps"...I think this question produces this kind of leap......(not the purpose of the question.....just the nature of the question).


#3 5T pg 743  "Holiness is agreement with God"  God The Father, Christ, The Holy Spirit are "Holy"...They are always in agreement with Eachother.  This really sets up a false premise that there is a difference between them simply by asking the question.......

This really takes us to the main human problem..."to believe or to not believe God."

Just my thoughts... :-)
Deborah
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 19, 2010, 06:15:57 PM
The Good News About God
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 19, 2010, 06:17:57 PM
The Good News about God's Wrath, Part Two

The Greek word that is translated
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 19, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
I am troubled by the questions...there seems (to me) to be an underling premise to each.....

God says in Isaiah 1, "Come let us reason together...." There is nothing illegitimate about these questions. I suspect that the problem is that they are very difficult to answer for those who subscribe to a substitionary view of the atonement.

#1 Seems to me..."if" Jesus had to die for sinners....there was "payment" being made...

Really? Where does it say that Jesus died to pay a legal penalty? We assume this because we are thinking in a substitutionary mindset.
Again, I ask the question: If this is true, who did Jesus pay the penalty to? If the substitutionary view is correct, this should be a simple question to answer.

I hasten to add that I do believe that Jesus did die for us, but not to pay a legal penalty. He died to show us the truth about God's character and to expose Satan's lies. By doing so, He reconciled God "to things on earth and things in heaven." (Col. 1:18-23) If the Cross was about paying a legal penalty, then how did it reconcile things in heaven, who have not sinned, to God?


there was a demand made on the sinner...either the sinner owes up......or...the sinner excepts the gift of God IE.....the life and death of Christ in his stead.   We may not like this arrangement....however, this is God's arrangement.

I don't believe that the substitutionary view accurately describes the Gospel, which is God's arrangement.

Now.......as a sinner, I must conclude that either God (Father, Christ, Holy Spirit) is just being mean and demanding or incredibly generous.....after all, it is His universe....  As was said  "sin is an attitude................and attitude will decide

#2 Why ask such a question? (Jesus changing the Father's attitude toward us)  I am interested in the thought process behind this question.  I realize, it can be unnerving that God will do His "strange act" and those who resist Him will suffer this deed......however....either we believe in His kindness, even toward those who choose not to be saved, or, we see Him in a way other than how He describes Himself (Jesus said "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father"). The human mind takes "leaps"...I think this question produces this kind of leap......(not the purpose of the question.....just the nature of the question).

The reason that I ask the question is that the substitutionary view is that Jesus' death changed God's attitude toward us from one of wrath at sin to acceptance. That's clearly not Biblical which is  just one of the problems with the substitutionary view.

#3 5T pg 743  "Holiness is agreement with God"  God The Father, Christ, The Holy Spirit are "Holy"...They are always in agreement with Eachother.  This really sets up a false premise that there is a difference between them simply by asking the question.......

Again, the substitutionary view assumes that difference. You are right that it is a false premise. The purpose of my question is to point that false premise out.

This really takes us to the main human problem..."to believe or to not believe God."

You are right that the main question is whether or not we trust God. But the trust that God is interested in is not blind. He gave us the Bible as evidence. Understanding the plan of salvation as I do now, I am more than ever convinced of the beauty of God's character. I love Him more and trust Him more than I ever have.

Just my thoughts... :-)
Deborah
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 19, 2010, 06:48:26 PM
Quote from: slingshot
1) If Jesus' death was about paying a penalty, who did He pay the penalty to?

2) Do you believe that Jesus' death changed the Father's attitude toward us?

3) Would you rather be judged by Jesus or by the Father?
-------------------------------------------
It was Jesus who took the judgment due us in our place. But those who reject the sacrifice of Jesus will suffer the terrible wrath of God in the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
 8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
------------------------

Slingshot,
Do you believe that those who reject Christ will meet their end in the lake of fire? Or does the above text mean something else?

Yes, those who refuse to trust God will be destroyed.

I think I hear you expressing the concern that people should have a choice to reject the infinite sacrifice of Christ without having to live in fear of divine wrath meted out against them?

I never said that. God's wrath is very, very real.

There are so many who would just love to hear the "good news" that they are not going to suffer the wrath of God. If there is no threat of punishment, then they will be happy to be content to live with the freedom to live how they like.

The good news about God's wrath is not that it does not exist. It is that God's wrath is simply God letting the sinner go, abandoning him to his choice to try and exist without God. This will result in the sinner's destruction as a consequence, not as punishment.
 
The threat of punishment has the effect of restraining evil at least to some extent.

That is true. Unfortunately, that's not what God wants. If He did, He could ensure obedience with rapid, severe chastisment every time the law is broken. What God wants is for us to internalize the principles of His character -- to write them on our hearts (Jer. 31) -- so that they are a part of us. The last thing that God wants is for His creatures to be afraid of Him. John "wrote:
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (I John 4:8)


Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 19, 2010, 10:21:22 PM
Slingshot, The verses you quote do not say that God's "turning them over," is the action of God's wrath. The action of God's wrath, is His destruction of sin by fire. This will necessarily include all sinners who have not accepted the salvation that God has provided. The "turning them over" in the verses you quote is God's allowing them to freely choose their own way, even though it is a path that leads to ultimate destruction by God's wrath. There is a difference. God is not passive. He will actively destroy sin and sinners. By equating "turning them over" with God's wrath as if it was God's only resposne to the unrepentant sinner, you are "begging the question." In case there are some who are unfamiliar with it, in formal argumentation, "begging the question" is when a debater states as fact that which he is trying to prove. If the opponent fails to challenge the statement, he has in effect conceded the point.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 20, 2010, 12:07:31 AM

these are excellent questions.... not sure any of us really understand this in  depth

#2  yes, we were all under a death decree and Jesus came to redeem us by His life and death....  Jesus is and was always our go between to the Father (i.e. mercy seat)....  OT prefigured to the cross and NT afterward....
#3 we are really judged by Both but Jesus is in charge....

Hi Newbie! It is good to be able to argue with you on this forum as well :-)

I hope we DO understand these questions but i wonder why some of them were asked. The second question asked if the sacrifice of Jesus changed God's attitude towards us. Perhaps we could put the question in another way. Does God love us because Jesus came and died for us? The answer is NO! it was BECAUSE He loves us that he sent Jesus to die for us. God's attitude of love for us does not change. but it changes US and our relationship to the Father. When we accept that gift of the Son of God we are no longer guilty and therefore our relationship to the Father is changed, and it changes OUR attitude of enmity to God to that of being sons and daughters of God.

Question number 3 asks if we would sooner be judged by Jesus or by the Father. I think it would be better to merely state the truth of the matter of Judgment. When Jesus was on earth He said:

(Joh 8:15)  Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

(Joh 8:16)  And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.


He also said:

(Joh 12:47)  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Jesus was not in this world to Judge us, but is the situation changed now that He has gone back to Heaven? Note the following:

(Joh 5:22)  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:



This brings us to the Judgment scene as described in Daniel 7. The ancient of days (the Father) sits on the throne, and Jesus is brought unto Him (Daniel 7:9-10, 13, 14). Jesus is the one who makes the decision as to whether He acquits or rejects each candidate for Heaven. The Father accepts the decision of His Son and that is only just since it was His Son who gave His life for each one of us.

I see no point in asking who we would sooner have to Judge us. The Father and the Son are One, and the Judgment is satisfactory to both as justice is done.





Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 20, 2010, 03:47:30 AM
Slingshot, The verses you quote do not say that God's "turning them over," is the action of God's wrath.

Actually, I think that they do. Romans 1 is clear that God's wrath is God letting the sinner go. Romans 4 is clear that when Jesus became sin and hung on the cross, God let Him go.

The action of God's wrath, is His destruction of sin by fire.

I agree that sinners will be destroyed by fire but not as act of punishment or as payment of a legal penalty. If Jesus did pay our penalty, as the substitutionary advocates suggest, then why wasn't He burned if that is that is what God's wrath consists of?

Interestingly, you don't find the notion of an active destruction by fire in Romans 1, nor even in Revelation. We read those ideas into the text. God's wrath is letting the sinner go. Death comes as a consequence and not as a punishment.


This will necessarily include all sinners who have not accepted the salvation that God has provided. The "turning them over" in the verses you quote is God's allowing them to freely choose their own way, even though it is a path that leads to ultimate destruction by God's wrath.

There is a difference. God is not passive. He will actively destroy sin and sinners. By equating "turning them over" with God's wrath as if it was God's only resposne to the unrepentant sinner, you are "begging the question."

It is not God's only response to sin. It is His ultimate response to a sinner who will not repent. The Bible is clear that God disciplines those that He loves. He will try to correct us. But if we refuse to be corrected, He will sadly let us go.

In case there are some who are unfamiliar with it, in formal argumentation, "begging the question" is when a debater states as fact that which he is trying to prove. If the opponent fails to challenge the statement, he has in effect conceded the point.

I don't think that I did that. I'm just quoting the Scriptures and letting the Bible interpret itself. Substitutionary atonement advocates say that God's wrath toward sin will result in active punishment. The Bible is pretty clear that God's wrath means that He lets the sinner go. He let Jesus go and Jesus cried out "My God, my God why are you forsaking me?" He did not cry out "My God, My God why are you killing me?"

But if I did, didn't you just do the same thing? "There is a difference. God is not passive. He will actively destroy sin and sinners."


Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 20, 2010, 03:52:53 AM
Hi Newbie! It is good to be able to argue with you on this forum as well :-)

I hope we DO understand these questions but i wonder why some of them were asked.

Hello Robert:

The reason that I asked these questions is that their answers have implications for the substitutionary atonement view.

That view says that sin demands the payment of a legal penalty and that Jesus paid that penalty for us.

That view is inconsistent with the answers that most Christians would give to those questions.

The second question asked if the sacrifice of Jesus changed God's attitude towards us. Perhaps we could put the question in another way. Does God love us because Jesus came and died for us? The answer is NO! it was BECAUSE He loves us that he sent Jesus to die for us. God's attitude of love for us does not change. but it changes US and our relationship to the Father. When we accept that gift of the Son of God we are no longer guilty and therefore our relationship to the Father is changed, and it changes OUR attitude of enmity to God to that of being sons and daughters of God.

Question number 3 asks if we would sooner be judged by Jesus or by the Father. I think it would be better to merely state the truth of the matter of Judgment. When Jesus was on earth He said:

(Joh 8:15)  Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

(Joh 8:16)  And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.


He also said:

(Joh 12:47)  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Jesus was not in this world to Judge us, but is the situation changed now that He has gone back to Heaven? Note the following:

(Joh 5:22)  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:



This brings us to the Judgment scene as described in Daniel 7. The ancient of days (the Father) sits on the throne, and Jesus is brought unto Him (Daniel 7:9-10, 13, 14). Jesus is the one who makes the decision as to whether He acquits or rejects each candidate for Heaven. The Father accepts the decision of His Son and that is only just since it was His Son who gave His life for each one of us.

I see no point in asking who we would sooner have to Judge us. The Father and the Son are One, and the Judgment is satisfactory to both as justice is done.

If the Father and the Son are One, and I agree that they are, then to whom did Jesus pay the penalty for sin?






Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: 10K MIX on April 20, 2010, 05:52:10 AM

John 1:29 (King James Version)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. It looks like Jesus is taking away sin...not dumping them on Satan and burning them up.


Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 20, 2010, 08:56:57 AM
John 1:29 (King James Version)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. It looks like Jesus is taking away sin...not dumping them on Satan and burning them up.



10K are you are denying symbolism of the the Old Testament  day of atonement ceremony?  Maybe I am not understanding your post.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 20, 2010, 08:57:06 AM
Slingshot,

When you quoted from Romans 1, you left out Romans 2:5,6

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

-----------------
This is a clear text saying that God will repay sinners according to their deeds.

I remember the final chapter of Great Controversy also says that sinners will suffer varying degrees of pain and suffering in hell based on their deeds, with Satan suffering many days longer beyond the other most heinous sinners.

Do you believe that God will repay according to their deeds?

What is your belief about the nature of the punishment of the wicked?

Stan


Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 20, 2010, 09:21:10 AM
the wages of sin is death.....   because a  righteous God cannot permit sin to contaminate the universe as it has done here.... 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 20, 2010, 09:26:57 AM
the wages of sin is death.....   because a  righteous God cannot permit sin to contaminate the universe as it has done here.... 

Hi Newbie:

I agree that sin leads to death.

I also agree that sin will not arise again.

But I don't think that will be because God does not allow it. Sin will not arise again because all of the rational creatures in the Universe will have God's Law written on their hearts. They will not have to be compelled or frightened into obedience. Instead, they will trust God and will be willing to do whatever He asks of them.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 20, 2010, 09:29:33 AM
Slingshot,

When you quoted from Romans 1, you left out Romans 2:5,6

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

-----------------
This is a clear text saying that God will repay sinners according to their deeds.

Hold on a minute Stan. The text does not say that God will "punish" anyone. If a sinner persists in rebellion, God will sadly give that sinner up and they will be destroyed. The death of the sinner is not something that God does to them as punishment. It is a consequence that they bring on themselves.  God made Jesus "to be sin" and God did not "punish" Him -- God let Him go. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" That is not punishment.

I remember the final chapter of Great Controversy also says that sinners will suffer varying degrees of pain and suffering in hell based on their deeds, with Satan suffering many days longer beyond the other most heinous sinners.

I can see a way that could happen.

Do you believe that God will repay according to their deeds?

What is your belief about the nature of the punishment of the wicked?

I will post on that next.

Stan



Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 20, 2010, 09:44:00 AM

Slingshot, your arguments  ignore that which is clear through out the Bible. God will actively destroy sinners. Whether you want to call it wrath or punishment or whatever you prefer, the destruction of sin and sinners is the will of God and would not happen without the action of God Himself. You say that the fact that Jesus did not die by fire proves that he did not die in place of the repentent sinner. That ignores the fact that Jesus is God.  God died in the place of sinners. His death was sufficient to cover the claims of His own justice, demanded by His own law. The manner of His death was significant only in that it was  slow and most humiliating, but it was His death that paid the price, not the method.
 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23. The concept of "wages" necessitates that there is one to whom the sinner is accountable, and who pays him his wages. If death is the wages of sin, who pays the sinner? It is God Himself who exercizes both justice and mercy.



Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 20, 2010, 10:02:03 AM
Slingshot, your arguments  ignore that which is clear through out the Bible. God will actively destroy sinners. Whether you want to call it wrath or punishment or whatever you prefer, the destruction of sin and sinners is the will of God and would not happen without the action of God.

The destruction of sinners is most assuredly not the will of God. God does not desire that any should perish. He does not want to let anyone go. I agree that their destruction is caused by an action of God but it does not occur as a punishment. Rather, it is a consequence of the sinner's own conduct.

You say that the fact that Jesus did not die by fire proves that he did not die in place of the repentent sinner.

That is not quite what I said. What I said is that the Bible teaches that God's wrath = letting the sinner go. I think that is clear from Romans and from Jesus' experience on the cross. God's active punishment of sinners with fire does not seem to fit either the description of God's wrath in Romans or Jesus' experience on the cross.

Let us assume that Jesus did pay our penalty, that God punished Him on our behalf. Where does it say that specifically in the Scripture? Jesus said He was forsaken. Romans says that God gave Him over, just like an unrepentant sinner. Where is the Biblical evidence to show that God punished Jesus as the payment of a legal penalty?


That ignores the fact that Jesus is God.  God died in the place of sinners.

Now you are begging the question!  :-D I don't believe that He died in our place. He did die for us, to show us God's character and to expose Satan's lies. That is different from dying in our place. And his death reconciled "things in heaven and things on earth" to God. (Col. 1:18-25). How could a death to pay a legal penalty for human sinners reconcile things in heaven to God? And who was the penalty paid to? No one has answered that yet.

His death was sufficient to cover the claims of His own justice, demanded by His own law.

So, is it your position that the penalty Jesus paid was paid to the law? Where is the Scriptural evidence for this view?

The manner of His death was significant only in that it was  slow and most humiliating, but it was His death that paid the price, not the method.  God exercizes both mercy and Justice.

Paid the price to whom or to what?

In fairness, I have not posted my views on the destruction of the wicked. I will get there soon.

As I review what I have written, I see that it may sound argumentative. I don't mean to be.

I ask these questions because we're so used to thinking in a substitutionary mindset that we just assume the truth of that view without every examining it.  My opinion is that it does not survive close scrutiny.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 20, 2010, 01:04:00 PM
Hi Newbie:

I agree that sin leads to death.

I also agree that sin will not arise again.

But I don't think that will be because God does not allow it. Sin will not arise again because all of the rational creatures in the Universe will have God's Law written on their hearts. They will not have to be compelled or frightened into obedience. Instead, they will trust God and will be willing to do whatever He asks of them.
You have forgotten ss that Lucifer and all of heaven and earth were once in this state of being and it failed. 
God will not permit it to happen again ever.  Sin and Satan will be finished and only those willing to be transformed will remain. 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on April 20, 2010, 07:02:12 PM
Slingshot.......

Perhaps our view of Sodom and Gomorrah are different...did God rain fire down on them or do you see it different?

I remember there was a pastor in Australia (FT Wright) that did not believe God Himself destroyed S&G..he believed God withdrew His protection and a volcano under the ground was then free to explode and destroy the inhabitants.....

What is your view?

Thanks,
Deborah :-)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 20, 2010, 08:20:42 PM
Slingshot.......

Perhaps our view of Sodom and Gomorrah are different...did God rain fire down on them or do you see it different?

I remember there was a pastor in Australia (FT Wright) that did not believe God Himself destroyed S&G..he believed God withdrew His protection and a volcano under the ground was then free to explode and destroy the inhabitants.....

What is your view?

Thanks,
Deborah :-)



Great point Deborah. Sodom and Gomorrah is the perfect example of what will happen to the wicked at the end of time as Peter states:
2 Peter 2

4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
-----------------------------------------
God cast the angels into hell. He didn't just give them up.

Slingshot wrote in reply to my post as follows:

When you quoted from Romans 1, you left out Romans 2:5,6

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;   6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
-----------------
This is a clear text saying that God will repay sinners according to their deeds.

Hold on a minute Stan. The text does not say that God will "punish" anyone. If a sinner persists in rebellion, God will sadly give that sinner up and they will be destroyed. The death of the sinner is not something that God does to them as punishment. It is a consequence that they bring on themselves.  God made Jesus "to be sin" and God did not "punish" Him -- God let Him go. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" That is not punishment.
------------------------
Slingshot,
I know you are an attorney and you sure are good at parsing words just like Bill Clinton  "It depends on what the meaning of is is"

That text above clearly states that it is God "Who will render to every man according to his deeds"

How can you possibly say that this text isn't saying that God does the punishing?


Romans 12:19:

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord
----------------------------------------------------------
Yes, God says he will take vengeance on those deserving of wrath

2 Thessalonians 2:11,12
 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
-------------------------
Oh, such harsh language. This doesn't sound like the God who doesn't damn or punish

2 Thess 1:

 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
---------------------
One MUST obey the gospel, or God will take vengeance in flaming fire on those who do not obey.

God has the right to make the rules. The Maxwellites may not like what the Bible says about God's wrath, but there is no way to explain it away, as we are witnessing on this thread.

Stan








Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 20, 2010, 10:25:35 PM
You have forgotten ss that Lucifer and all of heaven and earth were once in this state of being and it failed.  
God will not permit it to happen again ever.  Sin and Satan will be finished and only those willing to be transformed will remain.  

I am sorry my dear friend Newbie, but Sling Shot is right. It is not that God will not allow sin to rise again the second time. He knows that it will not because every soul will have been tested to the utmost. Only if they pass the test by refusing to sin, even in the Time of Trouble without a Mediator when they are faced with death, will anyone be granted eternal life. They will have PROVED that they will not sin in all eternity. There will not be an iota of compulsion from God in ANY matter. ALL will perfectly reflect the image of the Godhead.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 21, 2010, 12:08:34 AM
I am sorry my dear friend Newbie, but Sling Shot is right. It is not that God will not allow sin to rise again the second time. He knows that it will not because every soul will have been tested to the utmost. Only if they pass the test by refusing to sin, even in the Time of Trouble without a Mediator when they are faced with death, will anyone be granted eternal life. They will have PROVED that they will not sin in all eternity. There will not be an iota of compulsion from God in ANY matter. ALL will perfectly reflect the image of the Godhead.

I am sorry Robert, but Newbie has it much closer to the truth than you or slingshot. Please start another thread and come up with scriptures to support what you wrote above.

Sin will not rise again in the universe because those who are saved have been born of God and given resurrected souls as Paul states so clearly in 1 Cor 15:

42 so also, the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
-------------------
The above passage of scripture states definitively and once for all why sin will never again enter the universe after God makes all things new. It does not depend upon us developing a degree of perfection in this life, but on God's faithfulness to resurrect us to newness of life by His grace and to raise us incorruptible.

Soli Deo Gloria (To God alone be the glory--Amen)    (This is slightly off topic, but would make a great discussion on another thread.}
 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 21, 2010, 01:12:59 AM
SDGI am sorry Robert, but Newbie has it much closer to the truth than you or slingshot. Please start another thread and come up with scriptures to support what you wrote above.

Sin will not rise again in the universe because those who are saved have been born of God and given resurrected souls as Paul states so clearly in 1 Cor 15:

RobertWell that is virtually what I said. But those who claim to be born of God will be thoroughly tested before they are resurrected. The Investigative Judgment begins with those who have died claiming to be Christians and that will decide who of them will be safe to resurrect. Not all in that Judgment will past the test because it they will be seen as not fully committed and not safe to be taken to Heaven. They will not be full overcomers and therefore would likely sin in Heaven and thus bring about a repeat of our past history. The Judgment passes to the living and a 144,000 will be produced to go through the Time of Trouble without a Mediator. They will be proven as true overcomers and will not be in danger of sinning ever again. Of course they will demonstrate that before the actual Tim e of Trouble.  I do not have time right now to go any further with this nut please read the Great Controversy fully if you have not already done so.

The Scriptures you have presented below do not address the issues of why there is a resurrection. If you think that one soul will be taken to Heaven without being perfected you are sadly mistaken. The dead will be raised with perfected characters and the living will have perfected their characters and will be living without sin before Jesus comes. Ask Richard O'Fill what he thinks .

Robert

42 so also, the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
-------------------
The above passage of scripture states definitively and once for all why sin will never again enter the universe after God makes all things new. It does not depend upon us developing a degree of perfection in this life, but on God's faithfulness to resurrect us to newness of life by His grace and to raise us incorruptible.

Soli Deo Gloria (To God alone be the glory--Amen)    (This is slightly off topic, but would make a great discussion on another thread.}
 
[/quote]
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 21, 2010, 03:14:23 AM
Slingshot.......

Perhaps our view of Sodom and Gomorrah are different...did God rain fire down on them or do you see it different?

That's an excellent question!

Let me be clear: God has put people to sleep in emergencies.

As in the case of the Flood, with Sodom God confronted a culture that was thoroughly given over to evil.  He told Abraham He would spare the city if there were only ten righteous people in it. There was only Lot and his family and even their "righteousness" is disputable. In the case of the antediluvian world, only eight people boarded the Ark. The rest were so bad that "every imagination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually."

Situations like this presents God with a dilemma. Like a parent, He wants His children to love  and trust Him. Displays of divine power tend to make people afraid and lead to more rebellion. But, as with a parent whose child is running toward a cliff, God will raise His voice and thunder if the situation demands it. But that's not His preferred method of operation.

In those circumstances, God will act decisively and has put sadly put many, many people to sleep. the Flood, Sodom, the first born of Egypt, Aachan, the Canaanites, and others are examples of this phenomenon.

It's important to note that those peole are not dead as in "the wages of sin is death" but are only sleeping. God has never "killed" anyone, at least not from His perspective. But He has sadly put people to sleep.

But this is different from God's wrath as explained in Romans 1, which consists of giving the sinner over to ultimate destruction. Only one being has ever felt God's full wrath and that was Jesus.


I remember there was a pastor in Australia (FT Wright) that did not believe God Himself destroyed S&G..he believed God withdrew His protection and a volcano under the ground was then free to explode and destroy the inhabitants.....

What is your view?

Certainly not that a volcano was involved. That's just silly.  :-D

Thanks,
Deborah :-)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 21, 2010, 03:40:28 AM

When you quoted from Romans 1, you left out Romans 2:5,6

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;  6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

This is a clear text saying that God will repay sinners according to their deeds.

Slingshot,
I know you are an attorney and you sure are good at parsing words just like Bill Clinton  "It depends on what the meaning of is is"

I would really prefer that you use another example.  :-D


That text above clearly states that it is God "Who will render to every man according to his deeds"

How can you possibly say that this text isn't saying that God does the punishing?

I am not "parsing" anything. Let's look at the language of the text. You believe that "render" means punish. It does not.

The Greek word translated "render" is "apodidomi" which is a variant of the word translated "gave them over" in Romans 1 when God's wrath is defined. It means "give away, give over, give up, reward, render, requite, restore, reward, sell, yield." Not a single variant of the word having anything to do with punishment at all.

The meaning of the text in the context of Romans is clear. God's wrath is God giving the sinner over, letting them go.

Respectfully, if anyone is reading anything into the text it is you. Punishment is just not there. Giving them over is.



Romans 12:19:

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord
----------------------------------------------------------
Yes, God says he will take vengeance on those deserving of wrath

So, you believe that righteous people should not seek revenge because God says not to so that He can really get the wicked person? What about "Love your enemies" and "Pray for those despitefully use you that you may be sons of your Father in Heaven" Who "makes the rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous"?

God's "vengeance" is to treat the sinner gently, to love them, to woo them back. If anyone ever deserved God's vengeance, it was the men who killed His Son, yet Jesus prayed for their forgiveness as they tortured Him.  

I don't think that God's vengeance looks anything like our vengeance. None of God's people will be pumping their fists and cheering as the wicked are consumed.


2 Thessalonians 2:11,12
 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
-------------------------
Oh, such harsh language.

Stan, respectfully, this does not become you. I have not mocked you or your beliefs.

This doesn't sound like the God who doesn't damn or punish

The reason that God "sends them a strong delusion" is v. 11, quoted above, is set out in verse 10: "They perish because they refuse to believe the truth and so be saved." This fits right in with Romans 1. The sinner refuses to be won over, refuses to consider the evidence, refuses to listen to the wooing of the Holy Spirit. So, God has no choice but to sadly respect their freedom and let them go.

2 Thess 1:

 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
---------------------
One MUST obey the gospel, or God will take vengeance in flaming fire on those who do not obey.

Those who reject God and refuse to believe the Truth will be destroyed. But not as punishment. I will address this when I explain my understanding of the destruction of the wicked.

God has the right to make the rules. The Maxwellites may not like what the Bible says about God's wrath, but there is no way to explain it away, as we are witnessing on this thread.


Stan









Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Raven on April 21, 2010, 04:08:04 AM
Situations like this presents God with a dilemma.

You can't be serious.  The omniscient One faced with a dilemma?  He knows the end from the beginning.  A dilemma is something for which one is not prepared, and for which one is unsure of the best solution.  God is always prepared for any eventuality, since He knows the end from the beginning.  He is never unsure of anything.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 21, 2010, 04:23:44 AM
You can't be serious.  The omniscient One faced with a dilemma?  He knows the end from the beginning.  A dilemma is something for which one is not prepared, and for which one is unsure of the best solution.  God is always prepared for any eventuality, since He knows the end from the beginning.  He is never unsure of anything.

That's a fair point.

I did not mean that God does not know what to do.

I meant that God's actions, which are necessary, run the very real risk of making Him misunderstood. That has, in fact, occurred.

Your points regarding God's omniscience are, of course, correct.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 21, 2010, 06:32:48 AM
Slingshot, The substitutionaly death of Christ is foundational to the plan of salvation. You have  to ignore the meaning of the sacrificial system in the OT and plain words in the NT. You also have to reject Ellen White, who stated many times that Christ was our substitute. Your use of words, as Stan said, iseems to be a kind of sophistry which questions words and phrases which are intended to give us humans a hint of understanding of the deep mystery of salvation and the atonement, which we are told will be the subject of our study throughout eternity, and which angels desire to look into. The Bible gives us enough information that we can know that Jesus died for us and without his death we would be doomed. To claim that this was merely a demonstration, even a demonstration of God's love, reduces the force and significance of Calvary. This teaching is a confusion of the gospel.

There are countless statements in the Spirit of Prophecy writings that directly contradict your theology.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 21, 2010, 07:57:50 AM
Ss have you presented everything?  Should I begin?
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on April 21, 2010, 08:27:50 AM
Slingshot...just a thought here...in a jest...are you saying...

God's wrath will ultimately fall on "sin."  If a man/woman chooses sin, then they will suffer God's wrath "becasue" they refused God and stayed "in" sin?

Thanks,
Deborah  :-)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 21, 2010, 09:43:48 AM
Ss have you presented everything?  Should I begin?

I will present my ideas on the destruction of the wicked but if you'd like to post your ideas, please go ahead.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 21, 2010, 09:45:56 AM
Slingshot...just a thought here...in a jest...are you saying...

God's wrath will ultimately fall on "sin."  If a man/woman chooses sin, then they will suffer God's wrath "becasue" they refused God and stayed "in" sin?

Thanks,
Deborah  :-)

That's close to my view but not quite.

I do believe that God's wrath will fall on the sinner if one understands His wrath to be His letting the sinner go. But it is the sinner's attachment to sin that leads God giving them up.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 21, 2010, 10:12:27 AM
Slingshot, The substitutionaly death of Christ is foundational to the plan of salvation.

There you go again, begging the question. (You really should not have taught me that one.... :-D)

What you are really doing is attacking my conclusions by asserting your own conclusions. What you have not done is shown that I have misused or twisted the Scriptures.

The death of Christ is foundational but not His substitutional death. Jesus had to die to reveal God's character and Satan's lies.  



You have  to ignore the meaning of the sacrificial system in the OT and plain words in the NT.

Not at all. The meaning of the system, among other things, is that sin leads to death.

You also have to reject Ellen White, who stated many times that Christ was our substitute.

She also says many things that undermine the substitutionary theory.

Your use of words, as Stan said, iseems to be a kind of sophistry [Sophistry? Really?] which questions words and phrases which are intended to give us humans a hint of understanding of the deep mystery of salvation and the atonement, which we are told will be the subject of our study throughout eternity, and which angels desire to look into.

I am disappointed by this statement. So, we can't understand the plan of salvation? Is it a riddle, wrapped inside an enigma? Faith is the evidence of things not seen. God has given us the Bible as evidence. He wants us to make informed choices. Blind faith is not really faith at all.

It is perhaps a bit ironic for an Adventist, with all of our theological depth, to reject a stream of inquiry as sophistry because "it's a mystery" we can't understand.

If it all really comes down to "God is powerful. He is in charge. We have to trust Him" then why are we going through all of this? The death, the sickness, the misery? God could have simply exercised His power and wiped Satan out and had done with it.  

The question in the Great Controversy is God's character. Nothing could be more than important that. I believe the Bible teaches that the atonement was just that -- an at-one-ment -- designed to reunite and reconcile God and His creatures. the reconciliation is based on their understanding His character. After all, how can a person have faith, which is what God really wants, in a Person they don't know?

If the questions I've posed are sophistry as you say, it should be easy to puncture them with Scripture.

If I misstated anything, or twisted the Scripture, point it out to me so we can discuss it.

But to simply say "You're wrong and practicing sophistry" when I've quoted and applied so much Scripture seems a bit unfair.



The Bible gives us enough information that we can know that Jesus died for us and without his death we would be doomed. To claim that this was merely a demonstration, even a demonstration of God's love, reduces the force and significance of Calvary.

In a situation where the truth of God's character is everything, I would not say that Jesus' demonstration of God's character was "merely a demonstration." In fact, Colossians 1 says that the cross reconciled God not just to sinful man but also "to things in heaven." The cross was about much, much more than just us. "Reduces the force and significance of Calvary"? I don't think so.

This teaching is a confusion of the gospel.

If that is true, it should be a simple matter to show me from the Bible where my understanding of God's wrath or what happened to Jesus on the cross is wrong.

There are countless statements in the Spirit of Prophecy writings that directly contradict your theology.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 21, 2010, 10:24:27 AM
I will present my ideas on the destruction of the wicked but if you'd like to post your ideas, please go ahead.
destruction of the wicked and Satan and his evil angels is kinda key to the whole thing.... so I will wait for you to post this understanding
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Raven on April 21, 2010, 12:28:30 PM
That's a fair point.

I did not mean that God does not know what to do.

I meant that God's actions, which are necessary, run the very real risk of making Him misunderstood. That has, in fact, occurred.

Your points regarding God's omniscience are, of course, correct.

Thanks for the clarification. 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 24, 2010, 04:23:52 PM
Slingshot wrote:

let me be clear: God has put people to sleep in emergencies.

As in the case of the Flood, with Sodom God confronted a culture that was thoroughly given over to evil.  He told Abraham He would spare the city if there were only ten righteous people in it. There was only Lot and his family and even their "righteousness" is disputable. In the case of the antediluvian world, only eight people boarded the Ark. The rest were so bad that "every imagination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually."
------------------------------------------------------
Slingshot,

Do you believe the apostle Peter when he says that the destruction of the wicked is just like what happened at Sodom?

2 Peter 2

4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
------------------
He didn't just put those people to sleep, He incinerated them to ashes, yet they will be resusrrected again to suffer a similar fate, except the lake of fire will be even a more intense last judgment. God used the destruction of Sodom to make an example as to what will happen to the wicked. To say that this kind of judgment is just putting people to sleep is ridiculous.

Slingshot wrote:

Situations like this presents God with a dilemma. Like a parent, He wants His children to love  and trust Him. Displays of divine power tend to make people afraid and lead to more rebellion. But, as with a parent whose child is running toward a cliff, God will raise His voice and thunder if the situation demands it. But that's not His preferred method of operation.
---------------------------------------------
Slingshot, this presents a very low view of the Holiness and Sovereignty of God.

How do you explain what happened in Numbers 15, when a man was caught gathering wood on the Sabbath?

 32And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

 33And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

 34And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

 35And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

 36And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

------------------------
Is this just a kind way for God to command the people to put this man to sleep?

And what about Uzzah? He was only trying to steady the ark which was about to fall and he was struck dead instantly.

Both of the above examples were meant to show that God is Holy and will not take lightly any sin that violates his holiness.

Stan
 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 25, 2010, 04:31:38 AM
Slingshot,

Do you believe the apostle Peter when he says that the destruction of the wicked is just like what happened at Sodom?

2 Peter 2

4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
------------------
He didn't just put those people to sleep, He incinerated them to ashes, yet they will be resusrrected again to suffer a similar fate, except the lake of fire will be even a more intense last judgment. God used the destruction of Sodom to make an example as to what will happen to the wicked. To say that this kind of judgment is just putting people to sleep is ridiculous.

Stan:

Ridiculous? I'm just applying the Scripture. The Bible repeatedly refers to the First Death as a sleep.

23When Jesus entered the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the noisy crowd, 24he said, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him. 25After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up. Matt. 9:23-25

11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." John 11:11

When the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, it is referring to the Second Death.  

Because the Second Death has not occurred, God has not killed anyone. He has, however, put many people to sleep.


Slingshot wrote:

Situations like this presents God with a dilemma. Like a parent, He wants His children to love  and trust Him. Displays of divine power tend to make people afraid and lead to more rebellion. But, as with a parent whose child is running toward a cliff, God will raise His voice and thunder if the situation demands it. But that's not His preferred method of operation.
---------------------------------------------
Slingshot, this presents a very low view of the Holiness and Sovereignty of God.

Actually Stan, I think that it is your view that does this. In your view, it appears that the only way can win the love and trust of His creatures is to frighten them with displays of power. That has never been God's preferred method of operation.

God's glory is His character and not His raw power. In Exodus 33,  Moses wrote:

18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."

 19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence.

In that culture, names were chosen to reflect a person's character. So, what God really means is that He will display his character in Moses' presence. That's how God responded when Moses wanted to see His glory.


Stan

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 25, 2010, 04:34:03 AM
Stan: Here is the second part of my reply to your post:

How do you explain what happened in Numbers 15, when a man was caught gathering wood on the Sabbath?

 32And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

 33And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

 34And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

 35And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

 36And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

------------------------

Is this just a kind way for God to command the people to put this man to sleep?

According to the Bible this man is sleeping and has not suffered the Second Death.

And what about Uzzah? He was only trying to steady the ark which was about to fall and he was struck dead instantly.

Ditto for Uzzah.

Both of the above examples were meant to show that God is Holy and will not take lightly any sin that violates his holiness.

In a way you're right about this, even though your underlying premise is still incorrect.  

Why did God order the stoning of the man gathering sticks? Well consider the audience: Stubborn, prideful people who would not listen no matter what God did. God had to take extreme measures to get their attention. He had to let them know that the He is to be taken seriously. Like very small children, immature people sometimes need the threat of force so that they will listen. So, the execution of this man was an emergency measure and was not something God did to vindicate His holiness.

The same thing occurred in the case of Uzzah. The Ark had been away from the tabernacle for decades. God had given specific directions that the Ark was to be carried. God was very serious about this other rules for worshipping Him because he wanted to carefully delineate between His worship and the pagan cults in the surrounding areas.  Instead of following His instructions, they put it on a cart. God put Uzzah to sleep to remind the people that He expects His directives to be followed. The point was not to punish Uzzah but to remind the people that they had to carefully follow the directives that God had given them for handling the Ark. Again, God put Uzzah to sleep because the situation demanded it and not to vindicate God's holiness. If the point was to punish Uzzah for sin, then why hasn't God put us all to sleep for our sins?

If you're right and sin leads to death because it offends God's holiness and demands punishment, then Jesus should have commended the stoning of the woman caught in adultery, which was the penalty called for in Mosaic law. But He didn't do that. Nor did He call for the death of the men who tortured Him. He forgave them.

This also leads to other questions: Should we stone Sabbath breakers today? How about adulterers? Rebellious children? The Mosaic law allowed death for all of those offenses. Is that how Jesus behaved when He was here? No. He forgave them. He reached out to them. He told them that He did not judge them.

You stated in a previous post that fear is useful for restraining evil. That is correct up to a point. Graham Maxwell was more generally correct when he observed that fear is for children. If you have to threaten your 5 year old with a spanking to get them brush their teeth, well and good. If you have to do the same thing with a 25 year old, have you succeeded? Of course not! Your goal is to get the child to internalize the principles of dental hygeine so that they will practice it not because you're threatening them but because they believe it. That what God meant when He told Jeremiah that His people would one day all know Him and have His law written on their hearts. (Jer. 31)

That is what God wants -- loving, trusting friends and not fear-filled servants. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." I John 4:18


Stan

I will make my post on the destruction of the wicked as soon as I am able.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 25, 2010, 12:43:04 PM
Slingshot wrote:

The Bible repeatedly refers to the First Death as a sleep.

--------------------

Yes, sleep is used as a metaphor for death, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the persons were killed by God. This is another way of playing with words and denying the obvious. So, if you want to say that God puts people to sleep rather than kills, it makes you feel better, but doesn't change the facts. God will also execute the final judgment at the second death.

One Maxwell devotee wrote "Sometimes God puts His children to sleep as in the flood".

 Well, the truth is that those killed in the flood, or at Sodom were never God's children and never will be.

Jesus said to the pharisees in John 8:44   Ye are of your father the devil,
--------------------

Slingshot wrote:

That is what God wants -- loving, trusting friends and not fear-filled servants. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." I John 4:18
-------------------------

I agree with you that this is what God wants, but this can only occur if one is born again and adopted into the family of God. Those who are adopted have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and don't need to live in fear at all.

Notice how Jesus makes a contrast between His true sheep, and those who are not:

John 10:26-30

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
-----------------

Then, He makes this promise to those who are His sheep:

 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30I and my Father are one.



Romans 8:14-16

4For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--------------------

The above verses apply only to those who are redeemed.

 Before being born again we are alienated from God. But it is only through accepting the blood sacrifice of Christ that we become his children.

Here is another problematic passage to the Maxwellites:

Romans 9:22,23

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
-------------------

The wicked are "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"  How can this possibly be fitted into the theology of Maxwell? I am sure, Slingshot, you have a good answer to this one.

Ephesians 2 is very clear that before we are children of God, we are children of wrath:

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
--------------

But, fortunately there is a remedy for the above which Paul addresses in the next verses of Ephesians 2

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
-------------------------------------

Continued on next post


Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 25, 2010, 12:45:45 PM
One of Slingshot's 3 questions from page 10 is:

2) Do you believe that Jesus' death changed the Father's attitude toward us?

The answer is yes, if we take at face value what Paul says above about us being children of wrath prior to the new birth.

It is the sacrifice of Christ which is the fulfillment of the blood sacrifice system of the OT which makes us acceptable to God if we trust in this sacrifice:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Slingshot,

What is the plain obvious meaning of the above text? If we reject Christ's sacrifice that is acceptable to God, then we are still children of wrath.

This whole discussion reminds me of the story of Cain and Abel. Abel brought the sacrifice of an animal in obedience to God, but Cain thought he could do better by not having to bring a blood sacrifice, and brought a sacrifice of the fruit of his hands which God rejected.

We may not like the fact that God required the blood sacrifice of his Son, but if we are to be saved, we must believe that Christ bore our sins in place of us as the scripture so plainly teaches.

Any theory of the atonement which diminishes in any way the sacrifice of Christ, represents another gospel which will cause people to be lost rather than to be saved.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 25, 2010, 04:47:45 PM
SDG: One of Slingshot's 3 questions from page 10 is: "Do you believe that Jesus' death changed the Father's attitude toward us?

The answer is yes, if we take at face value what Paul says above about us being children of wrath prior to the new birth.

It is the sacrifice of Christ which is the fulfillment of the blood sacrifice system of the OT which makes us acceptable to God if we trust in this sacrifice:

Robert:I do not see it as changing GOD'S attitude towards US Sola. but as changing OUR attitude and relationship to HIM. God says:

(Jer 29:11)  For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Robert: God has ALWAYS had thoughts of peace towards us, even when we were at enmity with Him.

 Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Robert: We suffer God's wrath not because He loves us any the less or because of His attitude toward us. In beholding WE become changed. God is of purer eyes than to behold evil, and therefore, while we are sinners, God's wrath will automatically be against sin where ever it is found. If it is found in us, unrepented of, we will be destroyed along with the sin. Jesus died for us so that we will no longer have sin attributed to us and therefore God's love can flow unimpeded to us.  As Ellen white days, God does not love us because He sent Jesus to die for us, but He sent Jesus BECAUSE He loves us.

Robert


Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 25, 2010, 05:14:36 PM
wrote:
--------------------

Yes, sleep is used as a metaphor for death, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the persons were killed by God.

 Soli, do you mean to say that everyone of who die are killed by God?

Robert
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 25, 2010, 09:43:50 PM
Soli, do you mean to say that everyone of who die are killed by God?

Robert

Robert,
If you look back another post or 2, you will see that I was talking about the people that were killed in the flood and at Sodom. They were killed by God.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 25, 2010, 10:49:32 PM
SDG: One of Slingshot's 3 questions from page 10 is: "Do you believe that Jesus' death changed the Father's attitude toward us?

The answer is yes, if we take at face value what Paul says above about us being children of wrath prior to the new birth.

It is the sacrifice of Christ which is the fulfillment of the blood sacrifice system of the OT which makes us acceptable to God if we trust in this sacrifice:

Robert:I do not see it as changing GOD'S attitude towards US Sola. but as changing OUR attitude and relationship to HIM. God says:

(Jer 29:11)  For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Robert: God has ALWAYS had thoughts of peace towards us, even when we were at enmity with Him.

 Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Robert: We suffer God's wrath not because He loves us any the less or because of His attitude toward us. In beholding WE become changed. God is of purer eyes than to behold evil, and therefore, while we are sinners, God's wrath will automatically be against sin where ever it is found. If it is found in us, unrepented of, we will be destroyed along with the sin. Jesus died for us so that we will no longer have sin attributed to us and therefore God's love can flow unimpeded to us.  As Ellen white days, God does not love us because He sent Jesus to die for us, but He sent Jesus BECAUSE He loves us.

Robert




Robert, it is true that we become changed by the sacrifice of God, but it is also true that God is propitiated by the sacrifice of Christ.

John 3:36:

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This coupled with the Ephesians 2 text that clearly says that we are children of wrath before conversion.

God has a general wide reaching love for all humanity as "God so loved the world...(John 3:16), but He has a special love for His adopted children which Romans 8:15 mentions: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
-----------------
When we accept the sacrifice of Christ and place our trust in Him, then we are no longer under the wrath of God, but adopted as His child.

One of Maxwell's classic arguments has to do with explaining away the meaning of the word "propitiation". But this is a Biblical word and appears 3 times in the New Testament. The classical meaning of the word means to avert anger, or to appease the wrath of God. This concept of sacrifices averting the anger of God is found throughout the OT and NT. This is the concept that many like to play down or ignore, but we must deal with the Biblical terminology.

Here is a link which does very well at explaining the meaning and the use of the word propitiation:

http://home.clara.net/arlev/propitia.htm

The first text is in Romans 3: 24,25:

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
--------------
Here we see that God is propitiated by our faith in the blood sacrifice of His Son

The next reference is in 1 John 2:1,2:

 1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
------------------------

And in 1 John 4:10

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
---------------------------------

If we take the literal meaning of the words in context, we would have to conclude that the Father was also changed by the sacrifice of His Son.

God Himself, in the person of Christ took the punishment due us and at the same time satisfied the wrath of God against sin.

Again, we may not like this concept, but this is the classical interpretation of these texts by conservative scholars who believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible
-------------------------

Stan

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 26, 2010, 12:57:29 AM
This is from the song of Moses, which was apparantly dictated to Him by God according to verse 19.

(39) See now that I, even I am He and there is no god with me; I kill and I make alive, I wound and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand,
(40) For I lift up My hand to heaven and say, I live forever,
(41) If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment, I will render vengence to Mine enemies and will reward them that hate me,
(42) I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginnings of revenge upon the enemy. (Deuteronomy 23: 39-42)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 26, 2010, 10:06:19 AM
This is from the song of Moses, which was apparantly dictated to Him by God according to verse 19.

(39) See now that I, even I am He and there is no god with me; I kill and I make alive, I wound and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand,
(40) For I lift up My hand to heaven and say, I live forever,
(41) If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment, I will render vengence to Mine enemies and will reward them that hate me,
(42) I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh, and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginnings of revenge upon the enemy. (Deuteronomy 23: 39-42)


That is an excellent example Larry.

Here is another one:

Ex 22:22-24
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 26, 2010, 11:00:46 AM
Larry and all.... there are tons of examples like this OT and NT.  But they have to be explained away or the theory will not fit.....

Let's see what ss has for the lake of fire.......
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on April 26, 2010, 03:10:04 PM
Concerning the "sword" that is mentioned, it is true that God often has used the armies of Iraael's adversaries to punish them.  But in the covenents and curses that were presented to Israel from God through Moses, God identifies the "sword, famine., pestilence and wild beasts as His acts of punishment should Israel apostasy. Those who say God never kills will say that it is God simply letting things run their course without His protection which Israel forfeited by their frequent apostasies. However, there are also occurences of angels with threatening swords such as the incident with Baalam and the donkey. God is in control regardless of what happens or how it happens. God is not passive. 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on April 26, 2010, 06:16:10 PM
One of Slingshot's 3 questions from page 10 is:

2) Do you believe that Jesus' death changed the Father's attitude toward us?

The answer is yes, if we take at face value what Paul says above about us being children of wrath prior to the new birth.

Well Stan, I am not sure quite what to say....The Bible is pretty clear that God's wrath is letting us go. Romans 1, Romans 4 and Jesus on the cross all make this very clear. In spite of this, you continue to use references to "wrath" to refer to punishment.

A better approach more consistent with Romans is to understand this text that unrepentant sinners are children of wrath in that if they do not repent God will let them go. You are entitled to your own opinion, of course, but if you are going to simply ignore the Biblical definition of God's wrath, I'm not sure quite what to say.


It is the sacrifice of Christ which is the fulfillment of the blood sacrifice system of the OT which makes us acceptable to God if we trust in this sacrifice:

Why? How does Jesus' blood sacrifice help restore trust, expose Satan's lies and reconcile God with His created beings? You offered absolutely no context for your claims. In fact, you've basically admitted that you can't do so but that we have to accept this system because God ordained it.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Slingshot,

What is the plain obvious meaning of the above text?

The NIV translates that text: "Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people...."

In any event, the text means that Christ's sacrifice revealed Satan's lies and God's character and made possible the reconciliation of God to all of His creatures, those in heaven and on earth. When God made Him to be sin ("bear the sins of many")The text says nothing about punishment.


If we reject Christ's sacrifice that is acceptable to God, then we are still children of wrath.

This whole discussion reminds me of the story of Cain and Abel. Abel brought the sacrifice of an animal in obedience to God, but Cain thought he could do better by not having to bring a blood sacrifice, and brought a sacrifice of the fruit of his hands which God rejected.

We may not like the fact that God required the blood sacrifice of his Son, but if we are to be saved, we must believe that Christ bore our sins in place of us as the scripture so plainly teaches.

Any theory of the atonement which diminishes in any way the sacrifice of Christ, represents another gospel which will cause people to be lost rather than to be saved.

Why will believing as I believe cause me to be lost? Please explain.

I believe it is your theory that minimizes the Cross. God, for some reason, demands blood for sin. Jesus paid that penalty so God's not angry at us anymore.

Or: The cross demonstrated God's character and Satan's lies and made possible the reconciliation of God and all of his creatures throughout the Universe. This view does not diminish the Cross. It gives it a greater and universal significance.

How do you understand that Cross reconciled God to things in Heaven as stated in Colossians 1:18-23?

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 26, 2010, 06:50:45 PM
I don't think anyone is denying that the cross put an end to Satan's works....
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 26, 2010, 10:48:57 PM
Slingshot wrote:
Well Stan, I am not sure quite what to say....The Bible is pretty clear that God's wrath is letting us go. Romans 1, Romans 4 and Jesus on the cross all make this very clear. In spite of this, you continue to use references to "wrath" to refer to punishment.

A better approach more consistent with Romans is to understand this text that unrepentant sinners are children of wrath in that if they do not repent God will let them go. You are entitled to your own opinion, of course, but if you are going to simply ignore the Biblical definition of God's wrath, I'm not sure quite what to say.

---------------------------

Well Slingshot, I am not sure what to say either. I simply won't accept your premise about God's wrath being minimized to simply letting people go passively. You have taken only a few verses, and ignored many other texts which talk about God actively executing His wrath as punishment. Several of these verses are posted above. You choose to hang your hat on Romans 1 because you can make it fit your idea of what God should be like. You have ignored a multitude of texts that I posted earlier that clearly shows that God actively punishes disobedience. You are using what is called eisegesis  which is reading your ideas into the text rather than exegesis. (see this link)

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisegesis

There are many people with itching ears just wanting to hear a message that they will not have to face an active wrath or punishment of God on judgment day. This is truly good news to people who want to reject God and live how they want in freedom from any fear of God or punishment.

I think many of us on this board are still waiting to hear what your concept of final punishment of the wicked is. Maybe you will be able to correct my misconceptions of your view.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 26, 2010, 11:31:19 PM
I don't think anyone is denying that the cross put an end to Satan's works....
What, exactly, do you mean Newbie? Seems to me that Satan is pretty active still. I would say that the the event on the cross made manifest the lies of Satan and that he is a defeated foe but not yet dead.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 26, 2010, 11:34:20 PM
Concerning the "sword" that is mentioned, it is true that God often has used the armies of Iraael's adversaries to punish them.  But in the covenents and curses that were presented to Israel from God through Moses, God identifies the "sword, famine., pestilence and wild beasts as His acts of punishment should Israel apostasy. Those who say God never kills will say that it is God simply letting things run their course without His protection which Israel forfeited by their frequent apostasies. However, there are also occurences of angels with threatening swords such as the incident with Baalam and the donkey. God is in control regardless of what happens or how it happens. God is not passive. 
Absolutely Larry! However, I would agree that most of the time we bring wrath upon ourselves through our disobedience. If we drink poison we will suffer death without God directly intervening.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 26, 2010, 11:37:19 PM
Robert,
If you look back another post or 2, you will see that I was talking about the people that were killed in the flood and at Sodom. They were killed by God.

Stan
Amen! Thanks for the clarification Stan. I have not yet learned just how to follow all of these threads.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 26, 2010, 11:43:53 PM
Robert, it is true that we become changed by the sacrifice of God, but it is also true that God is propitiated by the sacrifice of Christ.

I agree with you doctor Stan. It is just that I see it more of a change of ACTION by God rather than a change of attitude. We have the choice of which action we make possible for God to exercise toward us and still maintain His justice. I appreciate your thoughts. I am very slowly getting the hang of this forum. It is a bit different from the others I am on.

Robert
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 26, 2010, 11:53:32 PM
You can't be serious.  The omniscient One faced with a dilemma?  He knows the end from the beginning.  A dilemma is something for which one is not prepared, and for which one is unsure of the best solution.  God is always prepared for any eventuality, since He knows the end from the beginning.  He is never unsure of anything.
That seems mighty reasonable. What is termed a dilemma for God is already solved as it arises. And it arises before it happens and thus it is solved before it happens. That is why the plan of salvation was always in place from eternity. Hard for our finite minds to comprehend.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 27, 2010, 07:22:16 AM
What, exactly, do you mean Newbie? Seems to me that Satan is pretty active still. I would say that the the event on the cross made manifest the lies of Satan and that he is a defeated foe but not yet dead.

yes, but he hath but a short time.... he is a dead Satan walking on the earth
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on April 29, 2010, 11:15:34 AM
WOW !  I must say.........as I heard Pastor Charlie White say, at a retreat out in California, as a new SDA...KISS  "keep it simple stupid"  hhhe eeeheee :lol:

I am afraid this thread is making my brain work real hard...I don't pay it enough for this....  :lol: :lol:

I think I am following okay...however, there can be pitfalls for our brains here.  I see the differences in thought processes.........."let each be fully convinced in his own mind."

I am not trying to minimize the importance however......my thoughts on "The Father's" attitude toward sinners "before" Christ's sacrifice on our behalf....

In the Christian community, there is the thought that The Father and Jesus are "different."  That God the Father is violent, aloof, angry, vengeful......yet, when we come to meek and mild Jesus, Who stands between us the His angry Father...to "protect us" from getting hurt. Our attitude toward this is what  determines what we really think.  It becomes a "premise" upon which we evaluate the great things needing understanding.   

To explain Biblical Truth concerning God the Father and Jesus ...the same..................."the same" language can be used yet leave a different impression.


Jesus was clear "If you have seen me, you have seen My Father."  To have Jesus "is to have eternal life"  To have Jesus is to have access to the Father's Throne.....

God's wrath is frightful.....it is "that wrath" that stirred Him (the Trinity) to give Himself for our salvation.

Is it not reasonable for The Father to be angry over rape, murder, abuse of all kinds? If it doesn't bother us, what kind of people would we be? 

One other thought;

"Justice" demands a sacrifice........"Justice" has been satisfied and we are free......Amen, Amen, Amen.

He is a beautiful Person.

God's Blessings'
Deborah
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on April 29, 2010, 11:52:56 AM
I agree Deborah... you are very close...
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Robert Parker on April 29, 2010, 05:45:29 PM
Deborah WOW !  I must say.........as I heard Pastor Charlie White say, at a retreat out in California, as a new SDA...KISS 

Robert NEW SDA's Deborah? What's wrong with OLD SDA's (85 years) giving their wives a kiss--not only in order to have a happy marriage, but in order to repair any breeches.

Appreciate the rest of your thoughts in this post.

Robert
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on April 29, 2010, 06:41:28 PM
 :lol: :lol: :lol:

 :wink:
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on May 04, 2010, 10:18:17 AM

I will make my post on the destruction of the wicked as soon as I am able.

Slingshot,
I am still hoping to read your clarification on this point

Thanks

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on May 04, 2010, 10:34:40 AM
Slingshot,
I am still hoping to read your clarification on this point

Thanks

Stan
me too   :-D  when you are able... I know you are busy 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Slingshot on May 04, 2010, 10:56:23 AM
Slingshot,
I am still hoping to read your clarification on this point

Thanks

Stan

Hi Stan & Newbie:

I'm trying. In the last fifteen working days, I've been up at 3 a.m. for work four times. This weekend I spent twenty hours driving to a graduation. I am still exhausted today.

I will get to it as soon as I can.

Thanks again for your patience.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on May 04, 2010, 11:26:48 PM
The roots of Graham Maxwell's theology have been taught to Adventist kids since 1957 when Graham's father, Arthur S. Maxwell (uncle Arthur) came out with the famous 10 volume colorful Bible study set. I loved those books growing up as a child. But apparently Uncle Arthur taught his son quite well.

Here is an excerpt from Volume 9 Page 70:

If you want your heart to be God's home, if you want Him to live with you and keep you all your days, this is the way. All you have to do is to love other people as much, or more, than you love yourself. And when God sees this love in your heart He will come, by His Holy Spirit, and dwell with you and be your Comforter, guide, and Friend the rest of your life
------------------------------

What is wrong with this picture?

Uncle Arthur has reversed the order of salvation.

I ran across this critique of the Moral Influence Theory on the web today:

Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:  Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on May 05, 2010, 09:18:54 AM
Stan,
This is correct about the bible stories  to the children and those were great books but now I realize that the writer has made an influence in many unsuspecting people.
And, I agree with your bible scriptures and reasoning here.

This is not the root or foundation of the theory...  more on that later.........
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on May 05, 2010, 01:27:50 PM
I think I missed this text earlier. This one is similar to the one I quoted earlier in Romans 12:19

However Hebrews 10:26-31 is even a stronger verse, and is one that I would like to have Slingshot deal with.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
------------------------
Like slingshot, I will be very busy over the next week, but will be able to post periodically

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on October 06, 2010, 05:31:26 PM
This is a re-post of one that was made on Oct. 3 or 4, 2010. It was one of the last posts on this thread. Too bad we missed the other posts. If you all just want to start a new one, that's OK, too. I'm new so I will just kind of lay back & see what happens. My wife & I are very much in support of the Pillars of our Faith & are very interested in bringing out the truth about these teachings, because we believe they re-define & undermine  the Gospel & nearly every tennent of our Faith.

Is God's "Law of Love" a natural law or a spiritual principle?

On June 7, 2010, Tim Jennings presented his view of what he calls "The Healing Substitution Model" of salvation, or HSM. The link to this is <http://www.spectrummagazine.org/node/2416>
Here is a comment he made about God's law:

"God
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 06, 2010, 08:10:26 PM
God's love is  personal and focused. Jennings' theory of God's love as a "natural law" would seem to make it an impersonal force, like gravity to which he compared it. God's love not an impersonal force.  His 10 Commandment law is an expression of His Character and His love and it is the covenant between God and every individual who is willing to enter into the covenant with Him.  The covenant was guaranteed by God's gift of His son to die in place of each of us, for our sins.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on October 06, 2010, 11:15:34 PM
God's love is  personal and focused. Jennings' theory of God's love as a "natural law" would seem to make it an impersonal force, like gravity to which he compared it. God's love is not an impersonal force.  His 10 Commandment law is an expression of His Character and His love and it is the covenant between God and every individual who is willing to enter into the covenant with Him.  The covenant was guaranteed by God's gift of His son to die in place of each of us, for our sins.

Yes, I agree, but it seems to me that they blend the natural with the spiritual & mental natures, which, if true, would make it a pantheistic view. They use this interpretation of love being a natural law as the basis to believe that God doesn't destroy the sinner, it happens naturally when God withdraws His protecting power. Either way God would still be responsible for the death of the sinner. But they also use this idea of love as a natural law to take away the need for Christ as our substitute to take our penalty for sin. This is one of the things which makes their teaching so dangerous. If we don't believe that Christ took our sins we have no hope of salvation. To show how this concept of love as natural law is foundational to their teaching, here is a quote from Jennings Webmaster. It is from the on going dialog in the responses to Tim Jennings post of his "Healing Substitution Model" on Spectrum Magazine.


" ... which view one has of the Law determines which atonement model one subscribes to.

"If the Law is enacted, then atonement must be based on the traditional forensic payment model, wherein sin changed God's view of humanity (that is from love to wrath) such that Christ's blood (that is his death) is accepted as a substitute in place of the sinner, who justly deserves death (non-existence) because he offended the mighty and just Ruler Who's Law they broke.

"If your understanding is that the Law is natural, the Design Principle upon which the entirety of creation was made to operate within, then sin, as the bible says, is law-LESS-ness, the state of not having, abiding, observing, bound by, outside of the law. The atonement then must be reconciliation, a bringing BACK INTO the confines of the Law, because the broken law doesn't need an imposed penalty, the penalty is inherently a natural consequence... ie, death. WE are the one's changed, not God or His love of us. Being lawless, we no longer "deserve" life, because life cannot exist outside God's law, Not because He said so, but because that's the way He designed us to be. God's GRACE, then, is His extending to us the divine miracle of life, even while we chug along, spewing smoke and foul odors, "burning" the fuel of selfishness and self-exaltation without care for others. Christ's shed blood is harsh proof-of-purchase (payment) that He chose the fuel of Love over the fuel of selfishness. THIS is the atonement. The remedy, the salvation, is God providing via HS the power of divinity to change us (rewire our brains) into the perfect mental stature Christ achieved in His humanity during the war He won between selfishness and other-centered love.

If you submit to the former view, then the latter is heresy.
If you submit to the latter, then the former is heresy.

"The question then becomes... WHICH submission is the TRUTH?

"Yes, I know that this is too simplistic a question, that it can't be as black and white as described here, but this is one of the biggest foundation stones on which the rest of one's theology is built."
.
Dean A. Scott, mfa
C&R Webmaster and SS Class Podcaster
Assoc. Prof. Digital Art, SAU school of Visual Art and Design
 
Any thoughts?
restoretruth
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 07, 2010, 11:05:26 AM
Apparantly, it is a common complaint about Maxwell's teachings that people don't really understand what he is saying. To me, that is a red flag. They seem to be saying that Jesus didn't really have to die and that God does not destroy sinners. Out the window goes over 2000 years of Christian theology. Am I exaggerating? I probably don't understand their teaching.  :-)

It is sometimes said that the gospel can be understood by an 8 year old. If that is true, it certainly rules out Maxwell and Jennings' teachings.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on October 07, 2010, 02:31:53 PM
Apparantly, it is a common complaint about Maxwell's teachings that people don't really understand what he is saying. To me, that is a red flag. They seem to be saying that Jesus didn't really have to die and that God does not destroy sinners. Out the window goes over 2000 years of Christian theology. Am I exaggerating? I probably don't understand their teaching.  :-)

It is sometimes said that the gospel can be understood by an 8 year old. If that is true, it certainly rules out Maxwell and Jennings' teachings.

I agree Larry, and it boils down to this:

Romans 6:23

 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus died to pay the wages of sin for us, so we don't have to die. He died in our place
------------------------------------

Here is the Ministry magazine article which restoretruth mentioned on the new member thread which got lost:

http://ministrymagazine.org/archive/1992/March/the-moral-influence-theory

For a review of the issues involved, this is an excellent article.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on October 07, 2010, 02:45:20 PM
Spectrum Magazine published an excellent article by Desmond Ford on the problems of the Maxwellian teaching. He wrote a commentary on the Sabbath School lesson for November -December 2008, and he praised the SS lesson quarterly for taking a strong stand on the atonement:

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/node/1251

I know the author is controversial but his commentary is not controversial on this topic.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 07, 2010, 06:37:27 PM
Spectrum Magazine published an excellent article by Desmond Ford on the problems of the Maxwellian teaching. He wrote a commentary on the Sabbath School lesson for November -December 2008, and he praised the SS lesson quarterly for taking a strong stand on the atonement:

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/node/1251

I know the author is controversial but his commentary is not controversial on this topic.

Stan
It is good that Ford agrees with Angel Rodriguez' lesson, but I don't believe that Ford is controversial. He is simply an apostate. Nothing controversial about that. At least for Bible believing Adventists.  :-)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Raven on October 08, 2010, 05:28:31 AM
Even apostates are right occasionally.  Even Satan can quote Scripture.  We know Ford's theology, so I don't feel the need to wade through his material to search for an occasional gem of truth when there are so many other good sources of truth, sources which are not suspect from the outset.

Anything from Spectrum is suspect.  They claim to be SDA, but they are not friendly to manly of our core doctrines.  In some ways they are more dangerous than Proclamation.  At least we know what to expect from Ratzlaff, et. al.; they exist for the sole purpose of attacking us.

We really have wandered off topic, haven't we?  :nono:
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on October 08, 2010, 08:37:43 AM
Apparantly, it is a common complaint about Maxwell's teachings that people don't really understand what he is saying. To me, that is a red flag. They seem to be saying that Jesus didn't really have to die and that God does not destroy sinners. Out the window goes over 2000 years of Christian theology. Am I exaggerating? I probably don't understand their teaching.  :-)

It is sometimes said that the gospel can be understood by an 8 year old. If that is true, it certainly rules out Maxwell and Jennings' teachings.

Their belief that God's "law of love" is a natural law seems to be their basis for re-defining sin & redefining God's punishment. By redefining sin they redefine the entire gospel. Their teaching is confusing & hard to understand & as you said, a child can understand the Gospel. My wife & I have studied this off & on for about three years. Some times we feel our heads spinning. We questioned their teachings from the first time we heard them, but because a close family member is deeply involved in Jennings view, we felt the need to research it from time to time. Jennings recent post on Spectrum is the most detailed of his views that we have seen. His Statement of Beliefs on his website is not very specific. The problems are in the details. He does get specific in his blogs but you have to search the issues out. As we understand his view on Christ as our substitute He says He is, but substitute for what?

This is from his website:

"In conclusion, I believe that the
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on October 08, 2010, 11:48:32 AM
Even apostates are right occasionally.  Even Satan can quote Scripture.  We know Ford's theology, so I don't feel the need to wade through his material to search for an occasional gem of truth when there are so many other good sources of truth, sources which are not suspect from the outset.

Anything from Spectrum is suspect.  They claim to be SDA, but they are not friendly to manly of our core doctrines.  In some ways they are more dangerous than Proclamation.  At least we know what to expect from Ratzlaff, et. al.; they exist for the sole purpose of attacking us.

We really have wandered off topic, haven't we?  :nono:

Raven,
My intent was not to wander off topic. If you read the article in question, it is right on topic. When time is spent attacking messengers, then we go off topic.

Let's look at a few points that are made that are right on topic:

Most readers around the world will not know that what this lesson is teaching is quite contrary to what has been taught for generations at one of our educational centers. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of our physicians have been given
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Raven on October 08, 2010, 12:03:15 PM
Raven,
My intent was not to wander off topic. If you read the article in question, it is right on topic. When time is spent attacking messengers, then we go off topic.

L

 I found the article while doing a google search for the Ministry magazine article above and thought it contained important points to understanding the atonement. Sorry for any offense.

Stan




No offense taken.  I just have an aversion to Spectrum, and am not inclined to peruse anything from Ford.  I have too much on my plate already as it is.  As for wandering off topic, I'm as guilty as the next person.  I was talking to myself, too when I posted that.  I'll try to behave myself and stay off this thread.  :-D
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 08, 2010, 12:34:15 PM
Stan, I agree that Ford made statements that present clearly the vital doctrines that Maxwell and Jennings undermine.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: ejclark on October 08, 2010, 06:39:37 PM
God's love is  personal and focused. Jennings' theory of God's love as a "natural law" would seem to make it an impersonal force, like gravity to which he compared it. God's love not an impersonal force.  His 10 Commandment law is an expression of His Character and His love and it is the covenant between God and every individual who is willing to enter into the covenant with Him.  The covenant was guaranteed by God's gift of His son to die in place of each of us, for our sins.
Reminds me of what Walter Veith says about the Catholic Church and how they promote "Nature Law".  He shows the connection with those promoting "Going Green".  It's been a while since I've watched it, so the details are fuzzy.  I know you've watched at least part of the Rekindling the Reformation so maybe you might remember better than I.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 08, 2010, 09:10:12 PM
Reminds me of what Walter Veith says about the Catholic Church and how they promote "Nature Law".  He shows the connection with those promoting "Going Green".  It's been a while since I've watched it, so the details are fuzzy.  I know you've watched at least part of the Rekindling the Reformation so maybe you might remember better than I.
Yes, the Catholic church uses the idea of "natural law" in some of their theological statements having to do with economics and politics. I recall that Walter Veith shows in certain of his presentations, one position of the Catholic church is that according to "natural law" individuals do not really own goods or property, therefore goods and property can be lawfully and guiltlessly appropriated by a person in need, even if it is by stealth or force. Thats quite a doctrine!! There are other ways they use the term but I don't recall what they are off hand. Walter Veith quotes John Robbins' book "Ecclesiastical Megalomania" The Economic and Political Thought of the Roman Catholic Church. I think that a lot of that information is in that book. 
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on October 11, 2010, 12:54:28 PM
If we lose the doctrine of the substitutionary atonement and instead adopt the Maxwell model of the gospel, then, not only do we have another gospel, but we lose our great Christian hymn heritage.

Here is a classic by Isaac Watts:

Alas! and Did My Savior Bleed

Alas! and did my Savior bleed,
and did my Sov
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 11, 2010, 02:50:03 PM
Stan, I love to sing that song. You left out the chorus, which may not have been in Isaac Watts' original words.

At the cross, at the cross
where I first saw the light
And the burdens of my heart rolled away
It was there by faith I received my sight
And now I am happy all the day.

There are a number of variants to that hymn. There are 2 in "The Sacred Harp" which was published in 1844. Neither of them have this chorus and each of the melodies are different.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on October 11, 2010, 03:47:55 PM
Good point about the gospel, Stan. I also appreciate your other comments. I, too, love the hymns regarding Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross. Some of the old "Steps to Christ" books had some of these gospel songs at the end of each chapter. As a young adult, finding my way back to Christ, the words of these songs were a compelling influence on my life! Christ said, " And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32) The cross is at the center of the gospel! The "larger view" of Maxwell & others redefines the entire gospel, takes the focus from Christ's shed blood, & makes these songs more or less meaningless.

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on October 12, 2010, 11:05:25 AM
Stan, I love to sing that song. You left out the chorus, which may not have been in Isaac Watts' original words.

At the cross, at the cross
where I first saw the light
And the burdens of my heart rolled away
It was there by faith I received my sight
And now I am happy all the day.

There are a number of variants to that hymn. There are 2 in "The Sacred Harp" which was published in 1844. Neither of them have this chorus and each of the melodies are different.

Larry,
Yes, the chorus was not included in the original hymn, and was probably not written by Watts.

Here is a biography and list of all the hymns Isaac Watts wrote:

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/w/a/t/watts_i.htm
----------------------

Restoretruth,
Thanks for your encouraging comments, and I also appreciate your contributions to this topic.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on October 12, 2010, 11:08:20 AM
One other important point about isaac Watts. He was also a prolific writer and theologian. Early in his career, he was adamant about the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell. But after much study, he later reversed himself on this doctrine, and taught the final punishment and annihilation of the wicked.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on October 13, 2010, 07:24:04 PM
Someone's lost post -- re-posted below.
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

Can it be made any simpler than this?

   "What a contrast the second Adam presented as He entered the gloomy wilderness to cope with Satan single-handed. Since the fall, the race had been decreasing in size and physical strength, and sinking lower in the scale of moral worth, up to the period of Christ's advent to the earth. In order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was. He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He who knew no sin became sin for us. He humiliated Himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that He might be qualified to reach man and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him." Confrontation, pp. 32, 33. (This is the 1971 title for the EGW book published in 1878 by another title which I do not recall at this time.)

As I have studied this topic afresh with the faith of Jesus as my perspective, this wonderful plan of Salvation specifically glorifies God in that Jesus was made to be sin, became sin for us. He was made sin for us from His birth, and not merely a comparatively short time in the Garden of Gethsemane or on the the cross.
      [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

Someone made the above post just before the web site went down. I had copied the post, but lost the name & thought it important for discussion. Now I have no idea who sent it, except that it was not posted in this topic.I have taken the liberty to re-post it above just as it was originally posted. I will post my own response a little later, except to say this EGW statement goes to the heart of Tim Jennings teaching of the nature of sin which Christ bore for us!  What do you think?

restoretruth
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on October 16, 2010, 10:03:11 PM
DID JESUS BEAR OUR SINS FROM HIS BIRTH?


"He (Christ) took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He who knew no sin became sin for us. He humiliated Himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that He might be qualified to reach man and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him." (Confrontation, pp. 32, 33)


This may be a shock to some (it was to us), but HSM (Healing, Substitution Model of Salvation) teaches that the sin that Christ bore for us was our sinful human nature only! That is, SIN is redefined as the condition of fallen human nature. It is "the infirmities and degeneracy of the race"; it is "the degradation in which sin had plunged him"(man). Sin is sickness & disease. When Christ took on fallen human nature He bore our "sin", which, in their view is the infirmities and degeneracy, the sickness & disease of our human nature. Sin is not defined as a choice! It is defined as a condition!

The following quotations are from Tim Jennings:

Jesus became our substitute in that He took our
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on October 16, 2010, 11:50:41 PM
 
CONFESSION!
[/color][/s][/size]

We intended to add this to our last post but got 'busted" for it being too long! We were just going to leave this off, but then decided we want people to know where we are coming from! We have become alarmed at the HSM (Healing, Substitution Model of Salvation) teachings & believe they are a threat to the salvation of those involved in it! Besides redefining sin, HSM redefines the gospel, the atonement, the judgment, the sanctuary, Christ's mediatorial work, the wrath of God, & more. Please consider these statements:

"...the Bible is interpreted in a manner that is pleasing to the unrenewed heart, while its solemn and vital truths are made of no effect. Love is dwelt upon as the chief attribute of God, but it is degraded to a weak sentimentalism, making little distinction between good and evil. God's justice, His denunciations of sin, the requirements of His holy law, are all kept out of sight.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Ed Sutton on November 16, 2010, 06:55:00 PM
Atonement involves redeeming the redeemable,  and removing the unredeemable's threat to the redeemed.

cutting across the obedience of the legislation by disobeying the terms of the legislation

trans (cutting across across)  gression (obeying )   legislation (law )

sin is > trans (cutting across across)  gression (obeying )   legislation (law )

John 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
1 Corinthians 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 John 3:4  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

sinfulness = the spiritual image of Satan + the ablility to decay and die produced by the damage sin has done + the ability and willingness to obey Satan and disobey God + the defilement of the character, mind, conscience that sin causes

The power enforcing death is the law,  but the condition of death is the defilement of indwelling sin and not having the life from God implanted and remaining within.

1 John 3:4  Whosoever committeth <4160> sin transgresseth <4160> (5719) <458> <0> also the law <458>: for sin is the transgression of the law <458>.

4160 poiew poieo poy-eh
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on November 16, 2010, 11:57:27 PM

"The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement. " {PP 357.5}
 
Some questions to ponder & perhaps reply to:

What happens to our sins when we, by faith in Christ's shed blood, come to Him & ask forgiveness?
How does God deal with our sins?
How does God deal with the sinner?
How can God be just & forgive the sinner?
Is Christ's shed blood even necessary for God to be able to forgive?
How important is it for us to understand Christ's work of atonement in the sanctuary in heaven?
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on November 17, 2010, 09:13:27 AM
"The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement. " {PP 357.5}
 
Some questions to ponder & perhaps reply to:
What happens to our sins when we, by faith in Christ's shed blood, come to Him & ask forgiveness?
How does God deal with our sins?
How does God deal with the sinner?

Job.14
1.   [17] My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

Pss.103
1.   [12] As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Micah 7:
[19] He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Dan.9
1.    [24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on November 17, 2010, 07:24:27 PM
Job.14
1.   [17] My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

Pss.103
1.   [12] As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Micah 7:
[19] He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

Dan.9
1.    [24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Yes, When we confessed our sins, Christ took the condemnation of the law, our penalty upon Himself, and He bore our guilt! We stand before Him as if we had never sinned. But, if God has forgiven our sins -- cast them into the depths of the sea -- why is He keeping the record of our sins? This is troubling to some & they don't see why God is still dealing with sin in the sanctuary, when Christ has already paid the penalty.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on November 17, 2010, 07:32:20 PM
Larry's cat came back after 16 days!  And he fed it!  But, what happens if our sins keep coming back because we keep feeding them?  Do we just keep sinning & God keeps forgiving?  What happens if probation closes & we are still sinning? What provisions has God made so this won't happen to us?   
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on November 17, 2010, 08:20:12 PM
Yes, When we confessed our sins, Christ took the condemnation of the law, our penalty upon Himself, and He bore our guilt! We stand before Him as if we had never sinned. But, if God has forgiven our sins -- cast them into the depths of the sea -- why is He keeping the record of our sins? This is troubling to some & they don't see why God is still dealing with sin in the sanctuary, when Christ has already paid the penalty.


Probation has not closed yet for us so therefore, while the sins are removed from us, they are still on record (pardon for sin).  Once probation closes, our repented sins will be as white as snow and blotted out permanently. 

The Holy Spirit should be prompting each one of us to confess, repent, and forgive.  Don't put it off.... or you might forget.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on November 17, 2010, 08:22:03 PM
Larry's cat came back after 16 days!  And he fed it!  But, what happens if our sins keep coming back because we keep feeding them?  Do we just keep sinning & God keeps forgiving?  What happens if probation closes & we are still sinning? What provisions has God made so this won't happen to us?   

Turn away... ask Jesus to help you turn away from the lusts of the flesh and the call of the world....  step by step start moving away....
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Ed Sutton on November 19, 2010, 08:54:37 PM
Revelation 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Exodus 32:32  Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 08, 2011, 02:03:33 PM
THE BLESSED EXCHANGE

From Trevin Wax, Counterfeit Gospels: Rediscovering the Good News in a World of False Hope (Moody, forthcoming April 2011):

On the cross, God demonstrated His perfect justice and His great mercy.

He executed justice by pouring out His wrath against sin upon His only Son.

He showed mercy by absorbing that wrath Himself, thus allowing us to escape His judgment.


Because Jesus was filled with horror and cried out,
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 08, 2011, 03:20:55 PM
Good post Stan. In the words of the song,

Jesus paid it all, All to Him I owe
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 10, 2011, 01:46:19 AM
In the words of the song,

Jesus paid it all, All to Him I owe
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.

Yes Larry. That line is from the great hymn by Isaac Watts:  "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross"

http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh298.sht

1.When I survey the wondrous cross
   on which the Prince of Glory died;
   my richest gain I count but loss,
   and pour contempt on all my pride.

2.   Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
   save in the death of Christ, my God;
   all the vain things that charm me most,
   I sacrifice them to his blood.

3.   See, from his head, his hands, his feet,
   sorrow and love flow mingled down.
   Did e'er such love and sorrow meet,
   or thorns compose so rich a crown.

4.   Were the whole realm of nature mine,
   that were an offering far too small;
   love so amazing, so divine,
   demands my soul, my life, my all.

----------------------------------------
Isaac Watts had so many great hymns.

Soli Deo Gloria (To God Alone Be the glory)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on February 10, 2011, 11:38:13 AM
the CROSS is everything to us
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Ed Sutton on February 10, 2011, 11:19:23 PM
The life/ garden / trial /cross = one side of His robe
The empty Tomb & onward till Pentecost = the other side of His robe
Sanctuary completed and emptied and no longer needed = the sash / belt / buttons of His robe
 
Someday on the New Earth it will be said
He covered all the details and missed none.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on February 11, 2011, 10:11:14 AM
The life/ garden / trial /cross = one side of His robe
The empty Tomb & onward till Pentecost = the other side of His robe
Sanctuary completed and emptied and no longer needed = the sash / belt / buttons of His robe
 
Someday on the New Earth it will be said
He covered all the details and missed none.
even folded the napkin before He left the tomb  :-)
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: ejclark on February 13, 2011, 07:58:33 AM
Really.........What is the Atonement all about?
The cross plays a part, but it doesn't play the same part as what it did in generations past.  The Atonement began Oct.22, 1844.  In generations previous to 1844, the cross played a different role.

Lev. 23:27-"Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement:..........and ye shall afflict your souls and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD (this is a sin offering, an act of repentance)."
vrs. 28"........for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.(this is the act of AT-ONE-MENT between us and God"
vrs. 29"For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among His people.(this word afflicted for the most part is being ignored today.  Coupled with the word atonement, this is the process of letting God change our characters into His character.)"

It is very popular today to focus on the cross and ignore the work of atonement and the work of being afflicted.  It is believed that because so much less was expected from people past (Luther, Calvin and other reformers; Paul, Peter, John the Revelator, etc.) that no more than that is expected of us.  Never in any generation past has God called His people to as high a standard as what He calls His people during the Anti-typical Day of Atonement. 

Eph. 5:25"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word."  Christ died for us because He loves us.  But it's not His love that sanctifies us, it's His word through the power of the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us.  Love is a by-product we learn and obtain from being sanctified.  We live in a special time, the Day of Atonement, in which Jesus does something in us that He has never done for people in generations past.  In the Most Holy Place in Heaven, He is making special provisions for His people to take on His character like never before.

And what does Lev. 23:29 and 30 say will happen if we don't let Him change our characters into His?  ".....he shall be cut off from among His people.........the same soul will I destroy......"
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 14, 2011, 12:59:14 AM
Really.........What is the Atonement all about?
The cross plays a part, but it doesn't play the same part as what it did in generations past.  The Atonement began Oct.22, 1844.  In generations previous to 1844, the cross played a different role.

Lev. 23:27-"Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement:..........and ye shall afflict your souls and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD (this is a sin offering, an act of repentance)."
vrs. 28"........for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.(this is the act of AT-ONE-MENT between us and God"
vrs. 29"For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among His people.(this word afflicted for the most part is being ignored today.  Coupled with the word atonement, this is the process of letting God change our characters into His character.)"

It is very popular today to focus on the cross and ignore the work of atonement and the work of being afflicted.  It is believed that because so much less was expected from people past (Luther, Calvin and other reformers; Paul, Peter, John the Revelator, etc.) that no more than that is expected of us.  Never in any generation past has God called His people to as high a standard as what He calls His people during the Anti-typical Day of Atonement. 

Eph. 5:25"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word."  Christ died for us because He loves us.  But it's not His love that sanctifies us, it's His word through the power of the Holy Spirit that sanctifies us.  Love is a by-product we learn and obtain from being sanctified.  We live in a special time, the Day of Atonement, in which Jesus does something in us that He has never done for people in generations past.  In the Most Holy Place in Heaven, He is making special provisions for His people to take on His character like never before.

And what does Lev. 23:29 and 30 say will happen if we don't let Him change our characters into His?  ".....he shall be cut off from among His people.........the same soul will I destroy......"

EJ,
Your post saddens me. You really seem to be playing down the importance of what our Lord did on the cross.

Why can you not celebrate with Larry, Newbie, and others  the majesty of the cross. Why can't you just rejoice in the hymns of the great Isaac Watts "When I survey the Wondrous Cross"

What do you do with the words of the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:2:

2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

The emphasis in the New Testament is on the atonement which Christ completed on Calvary

Jesus did pay it all, and ALL TO HIM I OWE

As in the words of another great hymn:  "I will glory in the Cross"
1.
I boast not of works nor tell of good deeds
For naught have I done to merit His grace
All glory and praise shall rest upon Him
So willing to die in my place


Chorus:
I will glory in the cross, in the cross
Lest his suffering all be in vain
I will weep no more for the cross that He bore
I will glory in the cross


2
My trophies and crowns, my robes stained with sin
Were all that I had to lay at His feet
Unworthy to feast from the table of life
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Ed Sutton on February 14, 2011, 04:14:22 AM
Leviticus 16:

15
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 14, 2011, 09:40:53 AM
Really.........What is the Atonement all about?
The cross plays a part, but it doesn't play the same part as what it did in generations past.  The Atonement began Oct.22, 1844.  In generations previous to 1844, the cross played a different role.


EJ,
Your post contradicts not only the Bible, but the official teachings of the SDA church, and your post would contradict some beautiful statements Ellen White wrote in Desire of Ages about the signficance of the cross. Your gospel is not a gospel that saves sinners. It is another gospel.


Revelation 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Acts 20:28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 13:12  Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Revelation 1:5  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Excellent texts Ed.

Here are just a few more:

Romans 5:10,11:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
----------------------

Paul said it was AD 30 and not 1844 that the atonement was made

2 Corinthians 5:15-17:
15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Verse 19:
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

-----------------
Please notice the past tense. When did God in Christ reconcile the world unto himself? At the cross or in 1844?
If we are reconciled to Him, then that is the essence of what the atonement is all about

Here is another beautiful text in Hebrews 10:10

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
-----------
What is the simple meaning of ONCE FOR ALL?

Stan


Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 14, 2011, 11:12:21 AM
"The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the Day of Atonement. " {PP 357.5}
 
Some questions to ponder & perhaps reply to:

What happens to our sins when we, by faith in Christ's shed blood, come to Him & ask forgiveness?
How does God deal with our sins?
How does God deal with the sinner?
How can God be just & forgive the sinner?
Is Christ's shed blood even necessary for God to be able to forgive?
How important is it for us to understand Christ's work of atonement in the sanctuary in heaven?
I may be wrong, but I think EJ's statements have to do with restoretruth's last question, which is a very important question.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: newbie on February 14, 2011, 11:59:12 AM
I may be wrong, but I think EJ's statements have to do with restoretruth's last question, which is a very important question.
How important is it for us to understand Christ's work of atonement in the sanctuary in heaven?
very important... we are living in the day of atonement... should be consecrating our souls, fasting from all unhealthy foods, and dressing with modesty, living in humbleness of character....etc
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 14, 2011, 06:45:23 PM
I may be wrong, but I think EJ's statements have to do with restoretruth's last question, which is a very important question.

It did not seem that EJ was responding to Restore's post, but he came on in the context of several of us celebrating the meaning of the  cross of Christ.

The atonement did not start in 1844. The Bible is so very clear on this, and even Desire of Ages makes this point clear in at least one statement that the atonement proper was finished on Calvary, and this was the official position of the SDA church dating back to 1957.

I like what Pastor O'Ffill stated here:

http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=2873.0

"The message of our church is unique and that is the hour of His judgment is come. We also speak much about living a holy life. Yet it occurs to me that this message must be built on the truth of the cross and the resurrection of Jesus. I am not sure that we generally hear much about these truths.  Without the cross and the resurrection all the rest has no meaning. Our salvation comes from the cross. Our hope of the resurrection on the fact that He died and rose again.

The message of the Investigative Judgment without the cross and the resurrection leads one away from God rather than to Him. We must be careful. Our message in general takes it for granted that a person has been born again. Our church must not be full of Catholic haters, Religious Right haters or simply people scared out of their wits for what is happening around them.

The church should be made up of those who with joy have come or are coming to accepted the wonderful news of a crucified, resurrected and soon to come Savior."
--------------------------------

Unless I am wrong about EJ's post, I somehow saw a de-emphasis on the cross. But I am willing and hoping to be corrected if I am wrong.

Stan
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: ejclark on February 14, 2011, 07:00:04 PM
I may be wrong, but I think EJ's statements have to do with restoretruth's last question, which is a very important question.
Thank you Larry.  Yes, in part the statements I gave were in that response.  But also they were in response to the feeling I was getting from the lack of knowledge, understanding and explanation of what the Atonement is all about.  More and more frequently, from our pulpits is preached the messages of Justification.  And less and less frequently is preached Sanctification and Atonement.  This thread was giving me this same impression.  My statements were not to lessen the importance of the Cross, but to bring the Atonement into harmony with the Cross and to broaden and deepen the understanding and importance of the work Christ does in The Most Holy Place through the Cross today.


The emphasis in the New Testament is on the atonement which Christ completed on Calvary

If that were true, then what is the lesson in the Feast of Unleavened Bread, what is the lesson in the Feast of First Fruits, Feast of Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement?  It breaks my heart when I hear people talk about their salvation and this wonderful relationship they are having with Christ, and when you ask them about the Sanctuary Message, they have no clue what you are talking about.  I think to myself "Really, you are having a relationship with Jesus and you have no clue what He is presently doing for you in the Most Holy Place?  Then what on earth kind of relationship are you having?"  That's not aimed at you Stan.  I don't recall you ever saying anything like this.  I'm speaking of people I have talked to personally, so please don't take this as me aiming it at you.

I want to know my Saviour so intimately: I want to know as far as possible what anguish He went through for me on the cross; when He woke up Resurrection morning and presented His blood to the Heavenly Temple in consecration to begin His heavenly ministry for me; during this Anti-typical Day of Atonement, what is He doing for me to clean me up, to get me ready for my life with Him; what is He doing with the precious blood that He shed on the cross to cover my sins, and what am I supposed to be learning and doing to give Him my life?  How do I eat His flesh and drink His blood? John 6:54.

Matt. 20:22 Jesus asked His disciples "Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?  They say unto Him, We are able.  And He saith unto them,Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:"

Gal. 2:20"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me."

How should these two texts be applied in this time of the Day of Atonement?  I think I know, but not well enough to explain it very well.  That's why I continue to study and learn so as to deepen my relation with Jesus Christ.

Lev. 16:29-31"And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.  It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever."

When Jesus makes atonement for me, to cleanse me, is that process to begin now, or will it happen at His second coming?  I believe it begins now.
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Ed Sutton on February 14, 2011, 07:50:17 PM
Paul while he wrote this :

Romans 5:11  And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Paul also wrote this :

1 Corinthians 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

The contradiction in the mind is removed by understanding the Sanctuary.    The Jew rejected blood atonement unless it was an animal,  the Christian rejected animal blood atonement because they acceped Christ as both God / Man and Messiah / Vicarious Sacrifice.     The atonement spoken of in Romams 5:11 is the blood of the brazen altar / Jesus's life laid down Gethsemany, Trial, and life blood shed on Calvery. 

The blood once offered must be taken by the priest INTO the Holy Place ( daily) and later into the Most Place - Yom Kippur ( Day of Atonement ).

Only Christ could physically and spiritually and in divine authority - carry His life blood atonement into Heaven's Sanctuary.  The Temple in Jerusalem had become "your house...desolate".    Only the Temple in Heaven remains as God's Sanctuary.   
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on February 14, 2011, 11:41:18 PM
HAVE GOD'S REQUIREMENTS FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS CHANGED?

Have God's requirements for righteousness changed? Are His requirements different for the "last generation" than they were for the Apostles? Perhaps, His requirements haven't changed but this generation has been given more light & thus more is required of it.  Also, living in the Day of Atonement requires soul searching & living right with God. Here are some thoughts:

In answer to the question "...which is the great commandment in the law?", Jesus said

"...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Mat 22:37- 40

These were not new requirements of God. These two principles were spoken of in Moses time. (See Duet. 6:5 & Lev 19:18) They were, without doubt, everlasting principles that transcended eternity, & are the principles on which God's government & His commandments are based. These principles go beyond the letter of the law to the very spirit involved in keeping the law. When we try to live by the letter of the law it is not good enough, because God's love principles must come from the heart and from God's Spirit living within us!  Keeping God's law involves the spirit and motive in the heart (Matthew 5). That is why God has given us the new covenant promise to give us a new heart and to put a right spirit within us. "...A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you.... (Eze 36: 25-27)

But, hasn't this been God's purpose ever since sin entered this world? The promise of a new heart is an old promise that is applied to us, the last generation!

The conditions of eternal life, under grace

 The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.  {MB 76.2}  

"Love is the agent which he uses to expel sin from the heart."


  With untold love our God has loved us, and our love awakens toward Him as we comprehend something of the length and breadth and depth and height of this love that passeth knowledge. By the revelation of the attractive loveliness of Christ, by the knowledge of His love expressed to us while we were yet sinners, the stubborn heart is melted and subdued, and the sinner is transformed and becomes a child of heaven. God does not employ compulsory measures; love is the agent which He uses to expel sin from the heart. By it He changes pride into humility, and enmity and unbelief into love and faith.  {MB 76.3}  

Faith is the act of the soul by which the whole man is given over to the
guardianship and control of Jesus Christ

Faith, saving faith, is to be taught. The definition of this faith in Jesus Christ may be described in few words: It is the act of the soul by which the whole man is given over to the guardianship and control of Jesus Christ. He abides in Christ and Christ abides in the soul by faith as supreme. The believer commits his soul and body to God, and with assurance may say, Christ is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day. All who will do this will be saved unto life eternal. There will be an assurance that the soul is washed in the blood of Christ and clothed with His righteousness and precious in the sight of Jesus. Our thoughts and our hopes are on the second advent of our Lord. That is the day when the Judge of all the earth will reward the trust of His people. {1888 495.3}  

 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained...." Acts 17:30-31
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: restoretruth on February 15, 2011, 12:07:07 AM
WAS CHRIST'S WORK OF ATONEMENT COMPLETED AT THE CROSS?

Most of us would agree, "When Christ took our sins upon Himself & died in our place, He set us free from the penalty of sin. He gave us the right to eternal life!

Some might say, "There are no conditions except faith in Christ's blood! His blood is sufficient for us!"

Others might say, "We wholeheartedly embrace Christ's death for us! He did set us free! But, He not only set us free from the penalty of sin, He set us free from the power of sin! He sets us free by giving us a new heart & a right spirit! This is sanctification! This gives us a fitness to live in heaven! This comes through union with Christ! This is what Christ's work in the sanctuary is about. It's about renewing in us the same spirit God put in mankind when he was created."

Every created being to be a temple for the indwelling of the Creator

From eternal ages it was God's purpose that every created being, from the bright and holy seraph to man, should be a temple for the indwelling of the Creator. Because of sin, humanity ceased to be a temple for God. Darkened and defiled by evil, the heart of man no longer revealed the glory of the Divine One. But by the incarnation of the Son of God, the purpose of Heaven is fulfilled. God dwells in humanity, and through saving grace the heart of man becomes again His temple. God designed that the temple at Jerusalem should be a continual witness to the high destiny open to every soul. But the Jews had not understood the significance of the building they regarded with so much pride. They did not yield themselves as holy temples for the Divine Spirit. The courts of the temple at Jerusalem, filled with the tumult of unholy traffic, represented all too truly the temple of the heart, defiled by the presence of sensual passion and unholy thoughts. In cleansing the temple from the world's buyers and sellers, Jesus announced His mission to cleanse the heart from the defilement of sin,--from the earthly desires, the selfish lusts, the evil habits, that corrupt the soul.  "The Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver."  Malachi 3:1-3.  {DA 161.1}  

You are the temple of God, and  the Spirit of God dwells in you

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17.  No man can of himself cast out the evil throng that have taken possession of the heart. Only Christ can cleanse the soul temple. But He will not force an entrance. He comes not into the heart as to the temple of old; but He says,   "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him." Revelation 3:20. He will come, not for one day merely; for He says, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; . . . and they shall be My people." "He will subdue our iniquities; and Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea." 2 Corinthians 6:16; Micah 7:19.  His presence will cleanse and sanctify the soul, so that it may be a holy temple unto the Lord, and "an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:21, 22.  {DA 161.2}  

Doesn't it make sense, as well as being Bibical, that to have union with Christ would require a mediator?

 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin... If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."  1Jn 1:7,9

Isn't cleansing from sin a continual process that requires Christ as our mediator?

These are just some thoughts, not a definitive study.

If someone wants to study the Atonement & its relationship to the Heavenly Sanctuary there is online an excellent (out of print) book by William H Branson, a former GC President. He makes the subject clear & easy to understand. It is a free download!

<http://www.scribd.com/doc/48765010/The-Atonement-in-the-Light-of-God-s-Sancturies-Wh-Branson (http://www.scribd.com/doc/48765010/The-Atonement-in-the-Light-of-God-s-Sancturies-Wh-Branson)>
Title: Re: The Atonement -- What is it all about?
Post by: Ed Sutton on February 16, 2011, 11:57:33 AM
If the ENTIRE atonement was completed at the brazen altar then there was no need for anything else in the Sanctuary service to follow it.  That is not seen in Scripture.

If the ENTIRE atonement was completed at Calvary, then there was no need for Christ to come out of the tomb, and any such work as detailed in Hebrews and Daniel 8:14 to take place.

The sacrifice, and life, and lifeblood laid down at Calvary were not the ENTIRE completion of the process they are part of, but they were and are the ENTIRE completion of the work of the brazen altar of sacrifice portion of the process, Hebrews says that the sacrifice, laying down the life, pouring out the lifeblood was to be done ONLY ONCE. In that ONCE and FOR ALL action, they are complete, and never to be repeated.

Their merits are by the described mediated works of the High Priest in the Book of Hebrews, of necessity - be reapplied by and ongoing mediation because of necessity.


Let me put it this way - "ONCE ACCEPTING CHRIST - HAVE YOU STOPPED SINNING ? "     If not, and only the cross of AD 31 is the work of atonement, then you are lost, without the daily or continual mediation - the cross was AD 31 - sin still happens in Christ's followers in 2011.

If the cross completed the atonement, God has lost all His children sin they started sinning after AD 31, if after AD 31 He lost the means to remove guilt, for when the High Priest's mediation stops guilt eternally remains where it is. at that point.  

Ezekiel 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Exodus 34:7  Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children