Revival Sermons

Theology => The Sabbath => Topic started by: V. Hahn on June 11, 2009, 06:21:24 AM

Title: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: V. Hahn on June 11, 2009, 06:21:24 AM
I just had an epiphany.  Most of you probably already knew it; right now I feel so foolish that I didn't see this before. 

Over the years I've wondered why Jesus didn't come in 1844.  Then i've wondered why Jesus has waited so long to come since then.  So much wickedness, pain and suffering--how can He stand it?  He's always had faithful ones on this earth, and there have been times since 1844 that His coming has been close.  But we're still here. 

I've heard many friends, writers, commentators, etc. say the same thing..."Why hasn't Jesus come back to take His faithful home?"  So I guess I'm not alone.

Here is the quote that helps me understand.  It's what Agape's just posted in the "Guardian Angels" thread:

Quote
Jesus bade his angels go and strengthen them, for the hour of their trial drew on. I saw that these waiting ones were not yet tried as they must be. They were not free from errors. And I saw the mercy and goodness of God in sending a warning to the people of earth, and repeated messages to bring them up to a point of time, to lead them to a diligent search of themselves, that they might divest themselves of errors which have been handed down from the heathen and papists. Through these messages God has been bringing out his people where he can work for them in greater power, and where they can keep all his commandments.  1Spiritual Gifts pg. 155


In 1844 the remnant church still did not know the Sabbath truth.  Also between 1844 and now, God has had many of His children in other churches who have not yet seen the light, and He's waiting for them to come out of Babylon, "where he can work for them in greater power and where they can keep all his commandments". 

I had known that it was all about obedience, character and about keeping His commandments, but I guess I just never made the connection that He was waiting till ALL His children would keep ALL His commandments.

Have any of you wondered why Jesus hasn't come before now, or am I the only one?   :?



Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 11, 2009, 10:00:25 AM
Vicki, that is an excellent post. You have made an important connection. Agape has been finding some very helpful EGW statements.
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: guibox on June 11, 2009, 10:11:14 AM
Jesus didn't come in 1844 because He wasn't supposed to come in 1844. It was Miller's error that determined this supposed event, not that Christ was going to come but decided not to.

Only a few events  of Revelation came to pass, never mind the events of Revelation 13 that, as hindsight has shown us, are still in the future. The gospel was far from being preached to the whole world.

I'm not sure what gives us the impression that Jesus was supposed to come in 1844 but decided to change His mind.
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on June 11, 2009, 10:43:54 AM
Jesus didn't come in 1844 because He wasn't supposed to come in 1844. It was Miller's error that determined this supposed event, not that Christ was going to come but decided not to.

Only a few events  of Revelation came to pass, never mind the events of Revelation 13 that, as hindsight has shown us, are still in the future. The gospel was far from being preached to the whole world.

I'm not sure what gives us the impression that Jesus was supposed to come in 1844 but decided to change His mind.

I agree Guibox. I don't think Jesus changed his mind either. He is equal with the Father, and the times and seasons were set in eternity past, as God knows the end from the beginning. We must remember that it is God that is sovereign over all things, and not man and his actions.

Time in God's eyes does not mean the same as it does to us. He lives outside of time, and a thousand years is like a day to him. It has only been 2000 years since Jesus came to this earth, which is a relatively short period of time when considered in the time frame of eternity.

I believe Christ is coming back very soon, but all who have predicted when He will return have failed. If anyone sets a date for His coming, then we can be sure it will not be on that date.

We must live as if His coming is at any moment. It is indeed a blessed hope!

Stan
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: V. Hahn on June 11, 2009, 01:18:26 PM
Yes, Stan and Gui, I understand what you're saying.  But haven't you ever wondered why Jesus hasn't come by now?
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: Raven on June 11, 2009, 01:38:34 PM
The short answer as to why He hasn't returned, yet, is that His people are still not ready.  More than a century ago, Ellen White said that the the church was retreating steadily toward Egypt.  Has that changed?  It seems to have gotten worse.  At some point, though, God will engineer events so as to bring the issues of present truth to the attention of the world and then things will escalate rapidly as people takes sides.
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: V. Hahn on June 11, 2009, 01:42:25 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say in the SOP that Jesus would have come after the disappointment if the believers had just held on and in faith moved forward?  Also didn't He almost came around 1888?
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: newbie on June 11, 2009, 03:01:41 PM
Quote
I saw that these waiting ones were not yet tried as they must be. They were not free from errors.

When the church rejected 'new light' they were given a window of time to accept but after that they still did not accept.  So, the 3rd angel did not go forth with the Loud Cry and the latter rain and the sealing.  If they would have accepted this message it would have combined with the 3rd AM and then they would have been tried and proved and then sealed and Jesus would have come.

I think soon, we are going to be tried and proved...  Oy I can hardly wait as we have been through some tough stuff already.  Step by step the Lord is proving us all.........

Keep the Faith,
newbie
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: Raven on June 11, 2009, 04:56:40 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say in the SOP that Jesus would have come after the disappointment if the believers had just held on and in faith moved forward?  Also didn't He almost came around 1888?

Yes, I've read that, but I can't give you the reference.  The first one may be in GC, but I'm not sure about the 1888 reference.
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: newbie on June 11, 2009, 05:25:38 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it say in the SOP that Jesus would have come after the disappointment if the believers had just held on and in faith moved forward?  Also didn't He almost came around 1888?

EGW gives mention to the soon coming of Jesus if the message had been accepted in 1888... would have happened in the early 90s some time probably.

Now, we have our chance.
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: guibox on June 11, 2009, 07:33:37 PM
EGW gives mention to the soon coming of Jesus if the message had been accepted in 1888... would have happened in the early 90s some time probably..

So what I'm hearing is that Christ's coming is delayed due to His people 'not being ready'? I was under the impression (and I believe that this is what we promote in our Revelation Seminars), that the biggest criteria for Christ coming was that 'the gospel is preached to the whole world'.

Does anybody here think that even with today's technology and satellite programs that this has happened all over the world? That every person has heard the gospel? I don't think so. And yet such a thing wasn't even close to the mark in happening in the late 19th century.

So which is it? God's people weren't ready then or now but the gospel is well on its way to the furthest reaches of the earth today when it wasn't in 1888.

Perhaps we need to understand the context and circumstances of why Sister White said that and whether she was putting that forth based on the limited scope of earth that 19th century people had. She couldn't have even thought of how vast the world still was and how many tribes and peoples were beyond their knowledge. She couldn't have thought of satellite TV and every other technology that has shrunk our world.
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 11, 2009, 09:08:55 PM
So what I'm hearing is that Christ's coming is delayed due to His people 'not being ready'? I was under the impression (and I believe that this is what we promote in our Revelation Seminars), that the biggest criteria for Christ coming was that 'the gospel is preached to the whole world'.

Does anybody here think that even with today's technology and satellite programs that this has happened all over the world? That every person has heard the gospel? I don't think so. And yet such a thing wasn't even close to the mark in happening in the late 19th century.

So which is it? God's people weren't ready then or now but the gospel is well on its way to the furthest reaches of the earth today when it wasn't in 1888.

Perhaps we need to understand the context and circumstances of why Sister White said that and whether she was putting that forth based on the limited scope of earth that 19th century people had. She couldn't have even thought of how vast the world still was and how many tribes and peoples were beyond their knowledge. She couldn't have thought of satellite TV and every other technology that has shrunk our world.

guibox, your post is logical and reasonable, from a human standpoint, but things were revealed to Ellen White in dreams and visions by God. God is not dependent on what man can do to "finish the work."  In Matthew chapter 19:26, It says,  "But Jesus beheld them and said unto them, 'With men this is impossible; but with God, all things are possible"
As you know, Jesus had made the statement in verse 24 that "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven."

The situation that exists now in the world appears even more impossible to us than it must have looked in the late 1800s and early 1900s. We are told that far more people are being born into the world every day than our little denomination is reaching. My guess is that more people are born in one day  than we bapitize in a year. Even with modern technology it seems impossible to ever "finish the work." However Paul writing in Romans gives us a clue as to what God will do.

(27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sands of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
(28) For He shall finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness; because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. (Romans 9: 27,28)

God is not dependent on mans efforts to finish the work. He could just as easily have finished it in 1888, or shortly after that, as at any other time.

Ellen white wrote that the end will come as an overwhelming surprise to people of the world. For Christians, especially Seventh-day Adventists, I believe that the fulfillment of Daniel 12:1 and Rev. 22:11 will be the overwhelming surprise---the "thief in the night" experience that Jesus warned about.  (Matt. 24;43, Luke 12:39, Rev. 3:3, 16:15)

(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time; and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Daniel 12:1)

(11) He that is unjust let him be unjust still; and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev. 22:11,12)

May each of our names be "found written in the book."




   "
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on June 12, 2009, 11:25:59 PM

Matthew 24:14
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
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Matthew 24:38-42:

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
-------------------------------------------------------------

We must be ready at all times, since we don't know when He will come.

Another reason Jesus did not come in 1844 or 1888, is stated quite well in Ephesians 1:3-7:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
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All who would be saved were known by God before the foundation of the world. Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If he had come in 1888, just think of all of us who were not born yet, who would not be saved, yet Christ died to redeem all who would become saved.

 He had you and me in mind even before time began, and intended that we come to faith in Him and be saved. He will come back when all whom He knew before the foundation of the world come to faith in Him.

God's timetable was established long ago, and man's speculation on His timetable has not been fruitful.  There are too many Christians who spend way too much time speculating on what God's timetable is. He has told us to occupy until He comes, but He has not given us all the details on how His plans will come about.

Stan
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: Raven on June 13, 2009, 04:34:42 AM
All who would be saved were known by God before the foundation of the world. Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If he had come in 1888, just think of all of us who were not born yet, who would not be saved, yet Christ died to redeem all who would become saved.

 He had you and me in mind even before time began, and intended that we come to faith in Him and be saved. He will come back when all whom He knew before the foundation of the world come to faith in Him.

God's timetable was established long ago, and man's speculation on His timetable has not been fruitful.  There are too many Christians who spend way too much time speculating on what God's timetable is. He has told us to occupy until He comes, but He has not given us all the details on how His plans will come about.

Stan


This is true, however it is clear from what we read in the SOP that had the church done its assigned task after the disappointment of 1844 Jesus would have returned.  That does not change the fact that He knew from the beginning that the church would fall short, but it underscores the fact that God is not arbitrary in His dealings with mankind.  He would have saved Sodom if only 10 righteous could have been found there, although He knew from the beginning that only Lot and his immediate family would be rescued.  But that did not prevent Him from entering into a dialog with Abraham about the situation.  If God had not discussed the situation with Abraham, he might have wondered about it, and even questioned God's justice.  As it was, there was no questioning on Abraham's part after the cities were destroyed.  It similar to what happened to the Israelites.  God gave them nearly 1500 years to get it right, knowing full well that they would fail in the end.  This again underscores the mercy of God and His unwillingness for any to be lost.

So, timetable or not (not sure that's the best word to describe it), foreknowledge or not, we do share some of the responsibility for the delay in Christ's coming.  And we know there has been a delay because the Bible says so in the parable of the faithful and unfaithful servants.  Matt. 24:45-51.  There's also a hint of this in Matt. 24:22, where it talks about "those days" being shortened or no one would survive.  The Bible contains many conditional prophecies.  They are conditional based on our response to them.  It was that way with Israel, and the second coming is no different.  The event is not conditional, but the timing is.  We can never finish the work so things will be ready for His coming, unless He engineers events to "cut it short in righteousness."  Rom. 9:28.  Notice the text says that He will finish the work.

Before the end of the cold war, while the Berlin Wall was still standing and the USSR was at least as strong as the US it was difficult to see how events could transpire as outlined in Great Controversy.  It is now much easier to see how this could happen.  And it could happen at any time since we are told that the final events will be rapid ones.  Look how fast communism collapsed in eastern Europe in the late 80's and early 90's.  No one foresaw it.  That's one reason we are admonished to be ready at all times.

Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on June 13, 2009, 06:57:07 AM
My understanding for the reason Christ has not come yet is that it's not been time yet.  God has a precise divine clock.   He has a mathematical mind.  The clock for Christ's return has been set for a date beyond which time will not be extended.  We know that Christ's return will be brought forward, time shortened, for the sake of the redeemed.   Yes, the gospel must go to the whole world, (could it be that the Holy Spirit is waiting for a certain number of individuals whom He can seal?).  Yes, God is waiting for His people to get ready.  But God is the conductor.  God calls the shots.  Man has the privelege of taking the gospel to the world with the aid of heavenly agents and of the Holy Spirit.  It is the Holy Spirit who shakes and stirs and and says to wake up out of this slumber, for it is time.  Our part is to respond to the Spirit's nudging or shaking, to be ready now, and to have the same sense of urgency that heaven has.
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 13, 2009, 08:27:14 AM
My understanding for the reason Christ has not come yet is that it's not been time yet.  God has a precise divine clock.   He has a mathematical mind.  The clock for Christ's return has been set for a date beyond which time will not be extended.  We know that Christ's return will be brought forward, time shortened, for the sake of the redeemed.   Yes, the gospel must go to the whole world, (could it be that the Holy Spirit is waiting for a certain number of individuals whom He can seal?).  Yes, God is waiting for His people to get ready.  But God is the conductor.  God calls the shots.  Man has the privelege of taking the gospel to the world with the aid of heavenly agents and of the Holy Spirit.  It is the Holy Spirit who shakes and stirs and and says to wake up out of this slumber, for it is time.  Our part is to respond to the Spirit's nudging or shaking, to be ready now, and to have the same sense of urgency that heaven has.
Lily,  I agree that we must be ready now. God has given to man the privilege of spreading the gospel, but I do not believe that He is dependent on man's efforts to do this. I don't believe that God will wait indefinately for His people to be "ready." The wickedness in the world is getting intolerable. As the prophecy has been quoted, He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness with or without the help of man.
Title: Re: Why Hasn't He Come?
Post by: Greg Goodchild on September 08, 2009, 10:18:08 PM
God has not come because the harvest of His character in His people has not been matured. When we allow Him to develop His image in us, and when we allow that image to be revealed through the righteousness of Christ so that every person on the planet has had opportunity to "see" Jesus  in us, then the harvest will be ripe and then Jesus will collect all of the righteous and take them to heaven. The harvest will be complete.