Revival Sermons

Theology => The Sabbath => Topic started by: colporteur on February 12, 2009, 07:28:57 AM

Title: Does it Apply ?
Post by: colporteur on February 12, 2009, 07:28:57 AM
 
We have church friends who work occupationally up to 90 minutes into the Sabbbath on Friday evenings in the winter months. They assist in the taking of handicapped and mentally disturbed children home from school on the bus.
 
Do you think this falls into the category Mrs. White refers to when she speaks of physicians
relieving suffering on the Sabbath ? WDYT?

"Physicians need to cultivate a spirit of self-denial and self-sacrifice. It may be necessary to devote even the hours of the holy Sabbath to the relief of suffering humanity. But the fee for such labor should be put into the treasury of the Lord, to be used for the worthy poor, who need medical skill but cannot afford to pay for it."--Health, Philanthropic, and Medical Missionary Work, page 42.

I think we would have a whole  lot less SDA doctors and such working on the Sabbath doing work that could just as well wait another day  if they were to take all the money earned on this day and give it to the church.

Many occupations could be said to relieve suffering humanity. Farmers feed the hungry and starving. Policemen, truck drivers, and fisherman feed and protect suffering humanity. There is a whole host of jobs that could be said to fall into that category depending on how far you want to stretch this.

I remember an SDA dairyman who had a huge herd. He had a lot of issues and worked on the Sabbath even beyond milking cows. During a winter storm he said that they would need to combine the last of the corn crop during the Sabbath or lose it. They got the crop in but that which they harvested on Sabbbath all rotted in the bin.

 
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 12, 2009, 09:09:03 AM
Do you think this falls into the category Mrs. White refers to when she speaks of physicians
relieving suffering on the Sabbath ? WDYT?
There's not much in common between the given scenario and a physician relieving suffering on the Sabbath.  It's not something I'd personally do on the edge of the Sabbath hours, but I can understand that it could be seen as a good and essential service.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Ruth on February 12, 2009, 10:15:06 AM
On the face of it, it would seem to fall into that category... assuming, of course, that the guidelines with regard to the fees are also followed.  The truth of the matter though, is that a lot of times it is not.

In SDA hospitals, there is no way for medical staff to get around working some Sabbaths, and I can understand that.  However, in Jamaica, the church has labelled as 'essential services' occupations as follows: firefighters, policemen, hospital workers (ancillary staff included), prison warders.

It is my considered opinion, that there are enough non-SDAs to go around... and SDAs working in these areas ought to exercise their constitutional right in order to prevent them from 'stretching' the boundaries of God's law.  Our Constitution allows for all persons to take a day off for worship (irrespective of the day), separate and apart from regular days-off.  I believe we ought to capitalise on this while it is still the case, and get used to standing up for our faith... furthermore, we need all the practice we can get. :wink:

My mother's cardiologist does not work on Sabbath, so if his patients have an emergency... they know to call 119 (yes, that not a mistake) or head for the nearest hospital.

Oh dear... I'm rambling.  In truth every case has to be examined on it's own merit.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Slingshot on February 12, 2009, 10:26:06 AM
On the face of it, it would seem to fall into that category... assuming, of course, that the guidelines with regard to the fees are also followed.  The truth of the matter though, is that a lot of times it is not.

In SDA hospitals, there is no way for medical staff to get around working some Sabbaths, and I can understand that.  However, in Jamaica, the church has labelled as 'essential services' occupations as follows: firefighters, policemen, hospital workers (ancillary staff included), prison warders.

It is my considered opinion, that there are enough non-SDAs to go around... and SDAs working in these areas ought to exercise their constitutional right in order to prevent them from 'stretching' the boundaries of God's law.  Our Constitution allows for all persons to take a day off for worship (irrespective of the day), separate and apart from regular days-off.  I believe we ought to capitalise on this while it is still the case, and get used to standing up for our faith... furthermore, we need all the practice we can get. :wink:

My mother's cardiologist does not work on Sabbath, so if his patients have an emergency... they know to call 119 (yes, that not a mistake) or head for the nearest hospital.

Oh dear... I'm rambling.  In truth every case has to be examined on it's own merit.

Perhaps the best course on questions such as this is to follow Paul's counsel and allow "each to be convicted in his own mind."
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Ruth on February 12, 2009, 11:22:26 AM
Perhaps the best course on questions such as this is to follow Paul's counsel and allow "each to be convicted in his own mind."

Perhaps... but bear in mind that the 'backlash' from some circumstance will affect us all... one way or another.

By the way, our new Head of State is the former President on the West Indies Union of SDAs... if national events become branded as essential services (and we pray that won't happen)... dare any civil servant to say they can't go into work on a Sabbath.

In this economic climate, something like that would be great fodder for the employers... some SDAs are already taking a pay cut because they require more hours for the same $$.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 12, 2009, 03:29:20 PM
Perhaps... but bear in mind that the 'backlash' from some circumstance will affect us all... one way or another.

By the way, our new Head of State is the former President on the West Indies Union of SDAs... if national events become branded as essential services (and we pray that won't happen)... dare any civil servant to say they can't go into work on a Sabbath.

In this economic climate, something like that would be great fodder for the employers... some SDAs are already taking a pay cut because they require more hours for the same $$.
Ruth, you bring up an interesting point. It is not necessarily a positive thing to see Seventh-day Adventists in high positions in government. In the U.S. we have a woman in the House of Representatives who has recently presented another "hate crime" bill. Hate crime bills, which are basically laws against certain ways of thinking, may well be expanded to the point that they will affect our religious Liberty. There are already restrictions in Canada that restrict what a preacher can say from the pulpit. Violations ARE punished.
There was a Seventh-day Adventist who held a political position in the State of Hawaii who recently converted to Roman Catholicism.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 12, 2009, 08:59:59 PM
Ruth, you bring up an interesting point. It is not necessarily a positive thing to see Seventh-day Adventists in high positions in government. In the U.S. we have a woman in the House of Representatives who has recently presented another "hate crime" bill. Hate crime bills, which are basically laws against certain ways of thinking, may well be expanded to the point that they will affect our religious Liberty. There are already restrictions in Canada that restrict what a preacher can say from the pulpit. Violations ARE punished.
There was a Seventh-day Adventist who held a political position in the State of Hawaii who recently converted to Roman Catholicism.
It was David Pendleton, a Seventh-day Adventist minister who was a member of the House of Representatives in the state of Hawaii and converted to the Roman Catholic faith.  I can't help but wonder if he was not seduced by members of "Opus Dei" a Catholic lay organization whose mission, as I understand it,  is to recruit prominent, promising, talented people who may be of use in furthering the interests and purposes of the Catholic Church. Walton talks about Opus Dei in one of his books.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Ruth on February 13, 2009, 05:38:08 AM
Ah yes!  I remember reading about Pendleton, and it does get you wondering.

I'm awaiting my dad's return from your country, to get a feel of how his Masonic mind is processing this particular move in our country.  If he tends toward enthusiasm, I will be even more concerned (He left.  However, in the meantime, we are admonished in Scripture to pray for those in authority... I will continue to do that.

In relation to Slingshot's response though, unbelievers usually fail to see a difference even while we in the household of faith seek to 'embrace' differences of opinion.  In the interest of fulfilling the Great Commission, there will be times when our most sincere 'convictions' will have to be laid aside for the greater good.

Sometimes the question needs to 'what's right about it?' rather than 'what's wrong with it?'.  I believe it is important to make it clear where our priorities lie, especially in our scheduling... and if I can work my schedule - even if it takes me out of my comfort zone on other days - so that I can give my Creator my undivided attention on the day He set apart...

You get the point, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Ruth on February 13, 2009, 07:02:54 AM
I just remembered this.

True story.

A non-SDA friend of mine is married to an SDA nurse.  He is a former co-worker of mine to whom I had always been witnessing, and he would ask about things of deep theological significance... seemed really interested in the message.  We had been out of touch for a while, and when I called recently we got to talking (as we always do) about where he was spiritually and about church life.  I was taken aback when he said he no longer attended.

He is a Carpentry & Joinery Instructor, and he does private work in his spare time.  He told me he had no time because he worked on weekends now.  In answer to my queries, he asked me:  "how is my work different from my wife's... she works most weekends too?!"  She is a nurse in a govt. hospital.  I tried the 'essential services' explanation.  Here is his response:

"She gets paid for working on weekends, I get paid for working weekends, how is that different.  My weekend job is essential, providing adequately for my family is essential... "

I had hit a brick wall.  Her sincere conviction in her own mind had become a stumbling block to her husband.

Was it worth it?
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Slingshot on February 13, 2009, 08:11:56 AM
I just remembered this.

True story.

A non-SDA friend of mine is married to an SDA nurse.  He is a former co-worker of mine to whom I had always been witnessing, and he would ask about things of deep theological significance... seemed really interested in the message.  We had been out of touch for a while, and when I called recently we got to talking (as we always do) about where he was spiritually and about church life.  I was taken aback when he said he no longer attended.

He is a Carpentry & Joinery Instructor, and he does private work in his spare time.  He told me he had no time because he worked on weekends now.  In answer to my queries, he asked me:  "how is my work different from my wife's... she works most weekends too?!"  She is a nurse in a govt. hospital.  I tried the 'essential services' explanation.  Here is his response:

"She gets paid for working on weekends, I get paid for working weekends, how is that different.  My weekend job is essential, providing adequately for my family is essential... "

I had hit a brick wall.  Her sincere conviction in her own mind had become a stumbling block to her husband.

Was it worth it?

I don't think that it's the same thing at all. Your friend's husband is comparing apples and oranges. Doing home repair on Sabbath is not an "essential" job. He could choose to work in the evenings or on Sunday. While he may need the income, he is not obligated to work on Sabbath, it's just more convenient for him to do so.

Unlike home improvement work, some jobs -- health services, paramedics, police, fire department -- are essential to society's functioning on a 24/7 basis, even on the Sabbath.  Even if we Adventists didn't do it someone else would have to do it on our behalf.  If we adopted the position that working in these areas was inappropriate for Adventists, and if we wanted to be consistent, we could not call the police, ambulance, or fire department on the Sabbath nor could we visit a hospital since doing so would require others to work on our behalf on the Sabbath.

An example from the law may be helpful here: British and American courts function on a system of precedent -- judges are bound by the principles of prior court rulings in similar cases. There is a saying that "hard cases make bad law" meaning that cases with very unusual facts tend to produce precedents that are not generally applicable or very helpful.  Applying that to the facts here, I view your friend's position as less of a stumbling block to her husband than his own poor reasoning. To pressure Adventists to avoid certain jobs on the Sabbath in order to accomodate non-Sabbath keepers who are not thinking clearly would be using a "hard case" to make a "bad law."

Again, I am not saying that all Adventists should comfortable working those jobs on the Sabbath. Giving people the freedom to act as they are led and convinced by the Holy Spirit seems the best policy to me.   :-)


 

Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: colporteur on February 13, 2009, 07:36:27 PM
Slingshot;

I  believe the jobs of policemen and firemen and such are only eccential if no one else can fill the position and even then many jobs are thought to be eccential that are not. While home repair may not seem eccential farming and truck driving might to some. Many times we fudge and work on the Sabbath because we either think God can't or will not lead us and take care of us or else we rationalize as eccential almost anything.

To take this a little further... what if people working on the Sabbath are candidates for holding positions in the church such as deacons or elders. Church members are observing our consistancy and how we relate to Sabbath observance and working on the Sabbath. The questions that comes to mind are....is taking care of disabled children returning from School on the Sabbath eccential? Does the organization have to keep the children that late on the Sabbath ? The answer is no. The second question is...if an SDA does not do this job will another fill the spot? The answer of course is "yes." The third question is ....is helping diabled children on the bus relieving suffering. While this is a good and commenable work I believe to say that this is relieving suffering is stretching it a bit.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Slingshot on February 13, 2009, 08:12:34 PM
Slingshot;

I  believe the jobs of policemen and firemen and such are only eccential if no one else can fill the position and even then many jobs are thought to be eccential that are not. While home repair may not seem eccential farming and truck driving might to some. Many times we fudge and work on the Sabbath because we either think God can't or will not lead us and take care of us or else we rationalize as eccential almost anything.

To take this a little further... what if people working on the Sabbath are candidates for holding positions in the church such as deacons or elders. Church members are observing our consistancy and how we relate to Sabbath observance and working on the Sabbath. The questions that comes to mind are....is taking care of disabled children returning from School on the Sabbath eccential? Does the organization have to keep the children that late on the Sabbath ? The answer is no. The second question is...if an SDA does not do this job will another fill the spot? The answer of course is "yes." The third question is ....is helping diabled children on the bus relieving suffering. While this is a good and commenable work I believe to say that this is relieving suffering is stretching it a bit.

So, would you call a fireman/policeman on Sabbath? Or take an injured person to the hospital?
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: colporteur on February 15, 2009, 07:57:15 AM
So, would you call a fireman/policeman on Sabbath? Or take an injured person to the hospital?

Apparently you missed some my post. Let me clarify further. Those jobs are only eccential, for an SDA, when no one else is available to do the job. We do not need to miss church, worship, and fellowship when another could just as well do the job and perhaps prefer to have the job.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Pamela Adams on February 17, 2009, 06:14:16 PM
This will probably be viewed as being critical, but it is not meant to be. We have many SDA hospitals here and many of the workers take off on Sabbath, as long as they can get someone else to work for them, and they[SDA] will work their Sunday.  I know I managed a restaurant at one time and had my assistant work my Sabbaths ,so I could be off...but I never felt right about it.  Does this fall under the guide lines of the manservant or maidservant...or those you have authority over? Any opinions out there?
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: colporteur on February 17, 2009, 07:13:26 PM
This will probably be viewed as being critical, but it is not meant to be. We have many SDA hospitals here and many of the workers take off on Sabbath, as long as they can get someone else to work for them, and they[SDA] will work their Sunday.  I know I managed a restaurant at one time and had my assistant work my Sabbaths ,so I could be off...but I never felt right about it.  Does this fall under the guide lines of the manservant or maidservant...or those you have authority over? Any opinions out there?

That's being in a hard spot but I believe your impressions were right. Unfortunately since you did not own the business you probably could not work there and not put someone to work on the Sabbath. I know that a number of our church members go out to eat on Sabbath therefore hiring and buying on the Lord's day.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Pamela Adams on February 18, 2009, 04:18:01 PM
thanks cp.....it seems mrs. white said something that, that was the problem with the jews...they had no problem having others work and do things for them on Sabbath that they would not do...I just read that recently and have forgotten where I read it....
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: newbie on February 18, 2009, 04:55:13 PM
many many stories along these lines....

The man that ran the corner candy store was Jewish and he would leave the door open on Sabbath and a sign that said, take what you want and leave the money on the counter. 

And, those in the neighborhood did just that.... and he would count the money after the Sabbath was over.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 20, 2009, 04:16:34 AM
Society needs a police force, but I'm not sure that it is the best career path for a Christian, not with the corruption, peer pressure, and an unsavory side.   Yet, I guess it could be argued that the force and society could do with a few good Christian police.  We probably do well to consider how our choice of job or career will overlap with the Sabbath.  In the city, we probably could avoid being a fireman, but in rural areas, the more volunteer firefighters, the better; fires need to be dealt with regardless of the day of the week.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Slingshot on February 20, 2009, 07:27:58 AM
Society needs a police force, but I'm not sure that it is the best career path for a Christian, not with the corruption, peer pressure, and an unsavory side.   

Good thing I went into law!   :-D

Yet, I guess it could be argued that the force and society could do with a few good Christian police.  We probably do well to consider how our choice of job or career will overlap with the Sabbath.  In the city, we probably could avoid being a fireman, but in rural areas, the more volunteer firefighters, the better; fires need to be dealt with regardless of the day of the week.
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Ed Sutton on February 20, 2009, 07:15:58 PM
I remember a fellow's situation in Cheyenne WY, I saw him he was limping heavily,  took him to ER and they did what was needed, got him crutches,  he needed meds, stopped by a pharmacy with him and went in and bought them, took him home and helped him up the steps inside.

It was after Church on Sabbath.  I would not have done it for my self, but my heart broke seeing his helpless pain and need.  Withered arm 101, pool of Bethesda 102,  did I feel justified - NO, did I talk to God and study and research it from inspiration - YES,  now yrs later - would I do it again - most decidedly - YES.

For my needs - NO

For others  helpless  needs - YES

Does working shifts on Sabbath fit this criteria - 99 times out of 100 - NO.      

Does working shifts on Sabbath fit this criteria - only 1 in 100 (except for ER, ICU, CCU, and such types work) - YES

Even then how does the Institution view and treat Sabbath ?

 It is a pre-scheduled event on a work schedule where income is earned, actions are the same, paperwork is the same, the institution treats it just the same, but the believer knows - it is the Sabbath - it is not the same.    I entered into a contract with more than one institution shielding me from Sabbath work, because the job consisted of elective medical services - not unscheduled - emergencies, or ongoing illness .   

Facilities will not allow work done off the clock, this forces employees to earn $$ on Sabbath.

Lord cause YourSelf to  become so important to me, that I will let You explain to me by what ever means You choose,  the difference and the reasons , and that I will listen and Biblically hear it .
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Pamela Adams on February 20, 2009, 08:41:00 PM
Thank you everyone....and Ed....that was very well said[typed]...
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Ruth on February 21, 2009, 12:04:02 PM
I remember a fellow's situation in Cheyenne WY, I saw him he was limping heavily,  took him to ER and they did what was needed, got him crutches,  he needed meds, stopped by a pharmacy with him and went in and bought them, took him home and helped him up the steps inside.

It was after Church on Sabbath.  I would not have done it for my self, but my heart broke seeing his helpless pain and need.  Withered arm 101, pool of Bethesda 102,  did I feel justified - NO, did I talk to God and study and research it from inspiration - YES,  now yrs later - would I do it again - most decidedly - YES.

For my needs - NO

For others  helpless  needs - YES

Does working shifts on Sabbath fit this criteria - 99 times out of 100 - NO.      

Does working shifts on Sabbath fit this criteria - only 1 in 100 (except for ER, ICU, CCU, and such types work) - YES

Even then how does the Institution view and treat Sabbath ?

 It is a pre-scheduled event on a work schedule where income is earned, actions are the same, paperwork is the same, the institution treats it just the same, but the believer knows - it is the Sabbath - it is not the same.    I entered into a contract with more than one institution shielding me from Sabbath work, because the job consisted of elective medical services - not unscheduled - emergencies, or ongoing illness .   

Facilities will not allow work done off the clock, this forces employees to earn $$ on Sabbath.

Lord cause Yourself to  become so important to me, that I will let You explain to me by what ever means You choose,  the difference and the reasons , and that I will listen and Biblically hear it .

Let all of God's children say a hearty "Amen!" :-D
Title: Re: Does it Apply ?
Post by: Greg Goodchild on September 11, 2009, 09:24:19 AM
The issue is always the heart. What is happening in the heart. For example the Jews felt a need to rebuke Jesus for picking corn and eating it on the Sabbath. They reasoned that Jesus should have made proper preparation so that these things would not be done on the Sabbath. Many SDAs reason just like the Jews.

Then we have the case of the overthrow of the city of Jericho. Joshua 6:1-4. Was the most activity, and the most warfare done on the Seventh Day? Did God know what He was doing?

So the heart, and the willingness to surrender to Jesus, is the key to all issues. Many things look good but if the heart is selfish and trying to avoid Jesus then no matter what the works are it is wrong. On the other hand those who are fully surrendered to God can do any works on the Sabbath that God has asked them to do and be right with God. John 5:17