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Title: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: 1WVMom on February 04, 2009, 10:47:36 AM
In our local college SDA church they had a guest speaker for the Sabbath church service.  This man was from a different denomination.  According to someone that was there in the first service he said EGW was out dated, and we needed to move on without her....during the second service this statement was left out but he still spoke.  My friend called the conference to share her concerns, they did not see a problem.  They said the church board must have voted on it etc....

How should we handle this type of thing????
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 04, 2009, 11:03:14 AM
In our local college SDA church they had a guest speaker for the Sabbath church service.  This man was from a different denomination.  According to someone that was there in the first service he said EGW was out dated, and we needed to move on without her....during the second service this statement was left out but he still spoke.  My friend called the conference to share her concerns, they did not see a problem.  They said the church board must have voted on it etc....

How should we handle this type of thing????

I think it is time to write and send letters like the leaves of Autumn.... not just letters of concern but letters that state that these things will not be tolerated. Tough i am not typically a walker outer I would have walked out and probably stopped and wiped my feet a couple of times on the way out. How dare someone not of our faith (and those of our faith) make such statements.

 Normally the first place to go would be to the board but I would not expect much satisfaction from a board if they indeed voted to put a non SDA behind the pulpit. My question to the conference (in a letter and phone call) would be "Is the church board the highest authority in the church?" If if is, then we have congregationalism and might as well boot out the conference leaders and "move on" without them. That will get their attention.  :wink:

Were we not told that the last work of the enemy would be to make the SOP of none effect ?   The enemy is IN the camp. What next ? Will they decide to "move on" without the Bible ? That's where this is headed regarding the Bible Sabbath. The handwriting is on the wall !

I'm not even from your conference but would write a letter myself had I the address. It would be nice to have the exact statements preferably on video.

Non SDA's have no business behind our puplits. Either out of ignorance or out of rejection, they have not accepted our message. How can we expect folks like this to sound the right message when even our own people are not getting it right ? Those who place these folks behind the pulpit give evidence that they should not hold positions that would allow them to make such choices.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 04, 2009, 11:29:19 AM
In our local college SDA church they had a guest speaker for the Sabbath church service.  This man was from a different denomination.  According to someone that was there in the first service he said EGW was out dated, and we needed to move on without her....during the second service this statement was left out but he still spoke.  My friend called the conference to share her concerns, they did not see a problem.  They said the church board must have voted on it etc....

How should we handle this type of thing????
This is sad.... we had one quest speaker come and tell us that we should reconsider Judas and tried to tell us that Judas just might be in heaven...  Needless to say, I have not seen him back yet.  I didn't say anything to anyone but maybe others realized the same thing.  I think it was based on a popular movie run by the history or national geo. channel.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 04, 2009, 11:57:38 AM
This is sad.... we had one quest speaker come and tell us that we should reconsider Judas and tried to tell us that Judas just might be in heaven...  Needless to say, I have not seen him back yet.  I didn't say anything to anyone but maybe others realized the same thing.  I think it was based on a popular movie run by the history or national geo. channel.

While we cannot control what people say behind the pulpit we should have a good idea where they are coming from and what their history is. While the man may be gone he sowed seeds that will germinate in the minds of some.

 Scripture says that it would have been better that Judas had not been born ? (Matt. 26:24)  How could this possibly be if He will be in heaven? If someone ends up in heaven, all the pain, suffering, and torture the devil could deliver and all the sin one might comit, would not render it better for that person not to have  been born. This speaker was either ignorant of the Scriptures or rejecting them. Either way he should not have been behind the pulpit. If someone is going to make thrusts like that they should at least investigate the life of Judas from the Scriptures.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 04, 2009, 12:43:56 PM
1WV;

It is obvious that your conference spokesman is in harmony with the speaker and whoever invited him. I don't think we should let the conference off the hook so easy as to let them dump on the board. If the board (or whomever), invited a speaker who promoted sending tithe to independent ministries would the conference say, "Well the board must have voted in the speaker."  I believe this is testing ground. It is being determined who will speak and who will keep silent...who will be troublers of Israel and who will bow down.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 04, 2009, 04:09:23 PM
In our local college SDA church they had a guest speaker for the Sabbath church service.  This man was from a different denomination.  According to someone that was there in the first service he said EGW was out dated, and we needed to move on without her....during the second service this statement was left out but he still spoke.  My friend called the conference to share her concerns, they did not see a problem.  They said the church board must have voted on it etc....

How should we handle this type of thing????

I doubt very seriously that this happened as it was described to you. It would be incredibly rude of any guest speaker to say something like that. The internet and emails are rife with inaccurate, sensational rumors. I have seen some of these emails coming from churches in my area and they are often filled with falsehoods and distortions.

I would approach the speaker and ask him if he said anything about Ellen White before making a big deal of it. Imagine how he would feel, and what it would tell him about Adventists, if he were to discover that the church is in an uproar over something that he never said. Following Matthew 18 is always good advice.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 04, 2009, 05:23:27 PM
I doubt very seriously that this happened as it was described to you. It would be incredibly rude of any guest speaker to say something like that. The internet and emails are rife with inaccurate, sensational rumors. I have seen some of these emails coming from churches in my area and they are often filled with falsehoods and distortions.

I would approach the speaker and ask him if he said anything about Ellen White before making a big deal of it. Imagine how he would feel, and what it would tell him about Adventists, if he were to discover that the church is in an uproar over something that he never said. Following Matthew 18 is always good advice.


slingshot... you sound familiar...do I know you?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: 1WVMom on February 04, 2009, 05:30:40 PM
After I went to the churches web site to see if indeed this man did speak there, yes it is true that he did.  They also said he was the speaker at the pastor's meeting....I believe of the Southern Union.  So, I guess our local conference probably does not have a problem with him...

The things on this man's web site goes against what we believe....so, regardless of whether he said anything about Ellen White, he does NOT need to be speaking in our churches nor to our pastors....
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 04, 2009, 06:33:52 PM
slingshot... you sound familiar...do I know you?

I don't know anybody named Newbie. Do you know a Slingshot?  :-D
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 04, 2009, 07:13:51 PM
I don't know anybody named Newbie. Do you know a Slingshot?  :-D
Be careful Newbie. You know what a slingshot can do to a ummm, oh well, never mind.  :-D
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 04, 2009, 08:52:34 PM
Be careful Newbie. You know what a slingshot can do to a ummm, oh well, never mind.  :-D

Well, I'm no Goliath either.  Just thought the wording sounded familiar... 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 04, 2009, 10:14:55 PM
Well, I'm no Goliath either.  Just thought the wording sounded familiar... 
Newbie, I wasn't thinking of you as Goliath. I was just thinking of what we use to shoot at with our slingshots when I was a lad. I was never a very good shot.
Technically speaking, what David used was a sling, rather than a slingshot. A sling is actually a deadly weapon. Once you get the hang of using one you can throw a rock bigger than your fist at a very high velocity for quite a distance. No doubt about it being able to kill a person that is struck in the head. It is a a little hard to learn to use. It feels like you are in danger of hitting yourself in the back of the head when you are learning. Anyway, thats my trivia for the day.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 05, 2009, 06:32:53 AM
If our local church invited a non-SDA pastor to  speak in our church; I would have left right then.   I came from Babylon and I'm not going back. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Arnie on February 05, 2009, 07:51:39 AM
If our local church invited a non-SDA pastor to  speak in our church; I would have left right then.   I came from Babylon and I'm not going back. 

Praise God!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 05, 2009, 09:04:00 AM
Newbie, I wasn't thinking of you as Goliath. I was just thinking of what we use to shoot at with our slingshots when I was a lad. I was never a very good shot.
Technically speaking, what David used was a sling, rather than a slingshot. A sling is actually a deadly weapon. Once you get the hang of using one you can throw a rock bigger than your fist at a very high velocity for quite a distance. No doubt about it being able to kill a person that is struck in the head. It is a a little hard to learn to use. It feels like you are in danger of hitting yourself in the back of the head when you are learning. Anyway, thats my trivia for the day.

 :-D   Oh, yes and with the right size sling and a small irregular shaped rock you can make the rock zing through the air and sound like a deflected bullet. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 05, 2009, 09:14:58 AM
I doubt very seriously that this happened as it was described to you. It would be incredibly rude of any guest speaker to say something like that.

What do you mean... our people say things to this effect all the time. It may be rude but it is in harmony with what many of our people believe to a greater or lesser extent.

Irrespective of the exact wording ,obviously, the non SDA speaker said something that left the SOP in the dust. I very much "doubt" that a non SDA who has not accepted the SOP, spoke about EGW in a way that exalted the gift or the message. The fact that this person has not accepted our message is evidence in itself that if he spoke about EGW at all he would draw back rather than lift up the messenger and her gift.

No doubt some would claim that the intent of the message was that we should continue in the reformation. The problem with this overly optomistic twist would be that apparently the speaker said that the SOP is "outdated" (obsolete).....even though so much of what was given us was directed pointedly and specifically to the very last days.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 05, 2009, 09:44:36 AM
What do you mean... our people say things to this effect all the time. It may be rude but it is in harmony with what many of our people believe to a greater or lesser extent.

I don't understand what you mean here. Please restate with shorter words. I'm not that bright.  :-D

Irrespective of the exact wording ,obviously, the non SDA speaker said something that left the SOP in the dust.
My point was that 1WVMom doesn't know what the speaker said. She didn't hear it. Everything that she heard is second-hand and is hearsay. The appropriate thing to do is to follow Matthew 18 and approach the speaker to find out what he said

I very much "doubt" that a non SDA who has not accepted the SOP, spoke about EGW in a way that exalted the gift or the message. The fact that this person has not accepted our message is evidence in itself that if he spoke about EGW at all he would draw back rather than lift up the messenger and her gift.
We don't know that that he even mentioned Ellen White.

No doubt some would claim that the intent of the message was that we should continue in the reformation. The problem with this overly optomistic twist would be that apparently the speaker said that the SOP is "outdated" (obsolete).....even though so much of what was given us was directed pointedly and specifically to the very last days.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 05, 2009, 10:32:34 AM
Newbie, I wasn't thinking of you as Goliath. I was just thinking of what we use to shoot at with our slingshots when I was a lad. I was never a very good shot.
Technically speaking, what David used was a sling, rather than a slingshot. A sling is actually a deadly weapon. Once you get the hang of using one you can throw a rock bigger than your fist at a very high velocity for quite a distance. No doubt about it being able to kill a person that is struck in the head. It is a a little hard to learn to use. It feels like you are in danger of hitting yourself in the back of the head when you are learning. Anyway, thats my trivia for the day.

Thanks Larry... 

 We had a monster slingshot once that was dangerous... hand held and anchored on the arm.  We also made one once so big that you could put a human in it but instead put tennis balls in it and shot them across campus.  That was fun.  Thank you for reminding me of the difference as it has been a long time...
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 05, 2009, 09:45:46 PM
For those who are speaking so strongly against having any non-SDA speakers as guests, do you believe this should always be true?

Ellen White encouraged reading other Christian writers and did so herself.

Recently at Loma Linda University church, Lee Strobel, who wrote the book "The Case For Christ", which now has become a classic spoke and was well received. Strobel was once an atheist, and wrote the above named book after initially setting out to write a book disproving Christianity and the existence of God. I don't think we have to agree on all theological points to have a worthwhile experience.

It just seems so arrogant the attitude that comes across in some of the posts--that we can learn nothing from anyone from another denomination (and automatically label them as Babylon)

HMS Richards Sr. read from many good non-SDA sources and was a fan of one of EGW's contemporaries, the great preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

I know that Pastor O'Ffill has brought up the names of some excellent non-SDA Christian writers and speakers like Louie Giglio.

 Do you really think all non-SDA speakers should be kept out of SDA churches?

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ruth on February 06, 2009, 04:18:35 AM

 Do you really think all non-SDA speakers should be kept out of SDA churches?

Stan

Do you think something went amiss when God only installed male Israelites (without physical deformities) from  the tribe of Levi as priests?

In our zeal for the 'contemporary' we would have probably complained that it was an exclusive club too, had we been in their position.... pretty small group if you ask me.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dalfie on February 06, 2009, 06:14:00 AM
There is a difference between holding a meeting, and occupying the pulpit.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 06, 2009, 06:29:41 AM
Yes, they should be kept out.  If I want to listen to a non SDA preacher; I would go to their church.  Which I don't.  Call me what you want but don't give me reasons to go back into darkness.  I was called out of Babylon.  I am not about to go back there even if it's through SDA doors.

For those who are speaking so strongly against having any non-SDA speakers as guests, do you believe this should always be true?

Ellen White encouraged reading other Christian writers and did so herself.

Recently at Loma Linda University church, Lee Strobel, who wrote the book "The Case For Christ", which now has become a classic spoke and was well received. Strobel was once an atheist, and wrote the above named book after initially setting out to write a book disproving Christianity and the existence of God. I don't think we have to agree on all theological points to have a worthwhile experience.

It just seems so arrogant the attitude that comes across in some of the posts--that we can learn nothing from anyone from another denomination (and automatically label them as Babylon)

HMS Richards Sr. read from many good non-SDA sources and was a fan of one of EGW's contemporaries, the great preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

I know that Pastor O'Ffill has brought up the names of some excellent non-SDA Christian writers and speakers like Louie Giglio.

 Do you really think all non-SDA speakers should be kept out of SDA churches?

Stan

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 06, 2009, 08:49:39 AM
Do you really think all non-SDA speakers should be kept out of SDA churches?

Stan
I can't say that a non-SDA speaker should never be allowed to speak in an SDA church.  Have heard a devout missionary of another faith, a speaker from the Bible society etc.  The qualifying factor is that the speaker be truly a man or woman of God with a message.  I'm not for moment suggesting that anybody and everybody ought to be allowed to present, no, great care must be exercised in deciding who may preach or teach in our churches.   I'm also thinking from the perspective that from time to time SDAs are invited to speak at other churches.   We should exhibit the same courtesy and respect that we wish for ourselves. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 06, 2009, 09:22:09 AM
I can't say that a non-SDA speaker should never be allowed to speak in an SDA church.  Have heard a devout missionary of another faith, a speaker from the Bible society etc.  The qualifying factor is that the speaker be truly a man or woman of God with a message.  I'm not for moment suggesting that anybody and everybody ought to be allowed to present, no, great care must be exercised in deciding who may preach or teach in our churches.   I'm also thinking from the perspective that from time to time SDAs are invited to speak at other churches.   We should exhibit the same courtesy and respect that we wish for ourselves. 

Very well said. I agree.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 06, 2009, 10:39:33 AM
"Ellen G. White Estate
Ellen G. White: The Early Years Volume 1 - 1827-1862, By Arthur L. White (1985) , page 479, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: (1861) The Clouds of War
Matters for Conference Consideration
479

2. Resolved, That ministers of other denominations, embracing present truth, should give proof of being called to preach the message, and be ordained among us, before administering the ordinances."

If preachers of other denominations who accept the truth need to be ordained before administering the ordiances; shouldn't it also hold true that they be ordained in our church before preaching in our churches?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 06, 2009, 11:19:58 AM
I cannot believe some of what I am hearing though we have been told the church would appear to fall.  When someone is an SDA then they may voice their opinion on who should be preaching in our churches and even then their opinions must be measured with Inspiration.

The fact that no one said we should keep non SDA speakers  out of our churches but rather away from our pulpits reveals that they are twisting the facts. Are we short on SDA preachers ? My friends beware, this is just more ecumentical babble. It will not be long and aready is that people say we are obstinate and arrogant because we cling to Bible doctrine and will not be moved. HMS Richards is more often referred to and quoted by some on this forum than the prophet, by those who are always seeking the lower level and the ecumentical gospel.

The following is a question that none that promote the ecumentical acceptance  and low standards within our churches can or will answer..... What is it that non SDA preachers and authors have today that we do not have within our 25 million membership?"  Is it powerful mission stories? Is it a focus on Jesus and the fruit of such?  Is it the health message ? Is it the three angel's meesages ?"   
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 06, 2009, 11:32:25 AM

  I'm also thinking from the perspective that from time to time SDAs are invited to speak at other churches.   We should exhibit the same courtesy and respect that we wish for ourselves. 

 Oh, Lily, this is flawed thinking and potentially very dangerous. God has not called us to trade messages with babylon no matter how respectable babylon's motives might be.

What are you going to do,Lily when the visiting speaker speaks error  as you really never know for sure what they will say? What will you do if a speaker breaks out with a brief session of tongues? How courteous would it seem if the person was asked to leave in the middle of the sermon? The other option would be to allow something to continue that should not be. How courteous would it be if several of our people walk out and who will receive the blood on their  hands  when error preached from the pulpit takes root in the minds of some of our people. While we are not immuned to error even with our own people (obviously) at least we are on the same playing field and there is some accountability involved. What happens if something a visiting pastor from another church preaches tickles some of our membership and they decide to start attending the pentecostal church to hear the preacher and end up out of our church? Your premise is loaded with danerous scenerios

If the Catholic church invites Doug Bachelor to preach in one of their churches should we invite Pope Benedict to preach in ours ?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 06, 2009, 01:15:32 PM
Amen.  My hair stands on end when I think of compromising our wonderful message in any way.  My heart goes out to those who don't know the message.  It is my job to reach others and bring them in to God's last day message.   Other non-SDA preachers have NOTHING to offer me.  I've been there.  It's not good.

Wouldn't it be a grand thing to bring my Baptist neighbor to church, and lo and behold, who is preaching?  Her preacher. She probably would think that we have nothing new to offer her, and that she should worship where she always did.

  Ellen G. White Estate
Last Day Events (1992), page 84, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Lifestyle and Activities of the Remnant
Guard Association With the World

[Revelation 18:1-3, quoted. While this message is sounding, while the proclamation of truth is doing its separating work, we as faithful sentinels of God are to discern what our real position is. We are not to confederate with worldlings, lest we become imbued with their spirit, lest our spiritual discernment become confused and we view those who have the truth and bear the message of the Lord from the standpoint of the professed Christian churches. At the same time we are not to be like the Pharisees and hold ourselves aloof from them.--EGW'88 1161 (1893).
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 06, 2009, 01:36:56 PM
Kayak, I understand your feelings about this which is based on your personal experience. I don't know how many different churches you attended but my guess is that it was a fairly representative sampling and we should not forget that we do not want to invite Babylon into our church. We are having a hard enough time keeping it out already.

However, I don't think we should  take a hard and fast, rigid position on the issue of a minister from another denomination preaching. There may be exceptions that we would want to make.  God has ministers  in other denominations who love Him and who have things to say in specific areas that are worth hearing. I would not hesitate to invite John Macarthur, for example, to preach about the RC Church, or about Willow Creek and the Purpose Driven movment.

I could name some of our popular Adventist preachers and evangelists who would do well to listen to Haddon Robinson and learn how to preach a sermon. Haddon Robinson is an older man, who teaches preaching to ministers. He is not physically impressive. He is not someone the ladies would find handsome.  He does not wave his arms, or continually use worn out phrases over and over, and run around on the platform, but when he preaches, people listen. As a church, we have a life or death message, but from what I have seen, we do not have a lot of excellent preachers. And many of  the preachers we do have are not preaching the 3 angel's mnessage.

I don't believe that we should make it a practice to invite non Adventist ministers to preach in our churches just for the sake of being liberal and accepting and tolerant, or because we need a speaker on a certain week,  but we should be open to the possibility that there may be times when one has something to say that we need to hear. We know from inspiration that soon, when persecution starts in earnest, there willll be a large number of people from the other churches who will replace those of our members who leave. These newcomers will  take part in giving the loud cry and final warning. I believe that there will likely be a large number of ministers among them. Perhaps even RC priests.

BTW, one of the criteria that defines a cult is that the leaders tightly control what their members are allowed to read or hear.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 06, 2009, 02:00:15 PM
I have been in a cult.  I am not going back.   Other preachers in our pulpit having nothing to teach me.  To many want to be entertained by a "great" preacher.   Doug Batchelor gives our message with love and points to a higher standard.  The standard that non-SDA preachers give is not God's high standard.   

When those others preachers are ready to receive and teach the truth, they will come in.  We don't have to drag them in the back door.

  Ellen G. White Estate
Last Day Events (1992), page 205, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: The Loud Cry
The laborers will be qualified rather by the unction of His Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them.--GC 606 (1911).
     
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Arnie on February 06, 2009, 02:48:46 PM
When you live in a conference such as I do, it makes it much easier to understand the position taken as to why we should not allow preachers from other denominations to come in and speak. The danger... we start looking to Babylon (even if we do not want to admit it or even realize it), and start lingering at the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" too long. Also, it is just not the members in our churches, but leadership who are asking and going to Babylon and having them come and speak, and even change how and what our churches mission is in proclaiming the gospel. We have a baptist minister who is giving advice and telling our conference leaders what they should do. I watched a video where this baptist minister used swear words, and took joy in how he kicked 2 women out of a church. He was speaking to all of the pastors from our conference and our leaders. The sad thing... many laughed when this pastor talked like this.

The churches where these other pastors are coming in... I am seeing that the 3 Angels messages and health message is lightly regarded, brought up on just a small occasion, or just plain ignored. I am seeing where the dress, adornment, entertainment and diet... all these and more are becoming more like the world. This is happening in such a subtle way, that many who are "conservative" are being swept away into deception. It is a battle for the mind..................

Ease, Self-indulgence, Security--Traitors Within the Walls.--It was when the Israelites were in a condition of outward ease and security that they were led into sin. They failed to keep God ever before them, they neglected prayer and cherished a spirit of self-confidence. Ease and self-indulgence left the citadel of the soul unguarded, and debasing thoughts found entrance. It was the traitors within the walls that overthrew the strongholds of principle and betrayed Israel into the power of Satan.  {1MCP 75.1}

     It is thus that Satan still seeks to compass the ruin of the soul. A long preparatory process, unknown to the world, goes on in the heart before the Christian commits open sin. The mind does not come down at once from purity and holiness to depravity, corruption, and crime. It takes time to degrade those formed in the image of God to the brutal or the satanic. By beholding we become changed. By the indulgence of impure thoughts man can so educate his mind that sin which he once loathed will become pleasant to him.--PP 459 (1890). {1MCP 75.2}

The mind controls the whole man. All our actions, good or bad, have their source in the mind. It is the mind that worships God and allies us to heavenly beings. Yet many spend all their lives without becoming intelligent in regard to the casket [jewel case] that contains this treasure.--SpTED 33, May 11, 1896. (FE 426.)  {1MCP 72.2}

Jeremiah 2: 13 “ For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters,
      And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water. 18 And now why take the road to Egypt,
      To drink the waters of Sihor? Or why take the road to Assyria, To drink the waters of the River?[d]

2 Timothy 4:3 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
     




 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Arnie on February 06, 2009, 03:02:06 PM
I do understand that many things are happening in our churches regardless if a speaker from another denomination has come in or not. If many knew what was being taught in some of our schools..... well, we have covered all of these topics before. We are living in the end times. We have been warned about these things that are happening now. They happened to Israel of old, and down through history. Now they are happening again. Oh how we need to have a relationship with Jesus and have our minds fortified with His Word, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 06, 2009, 03:03:13 PM
AMEN!!!!!!!! :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Arnie on February 06, 2009, 03:09:17 PM
One thing that is exciting however... not to change this topic/subject... EGW speaks of many eleventh-hour workers coming in at the end. There are many in other denominations who are starting to stand up to the wrongs coming into their churches. Wait until they see the light of truth!!! However the sad news... yet we know it will happen, is the fact that many who are in our churches now will be shaken out. I pray that all here will be safe and secure upon the Rock, Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 06, 2009, 04:00:12 PM
Ellen G. White Estate
Last Day Events (1992), page 211, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: The Loud Cry
There are many souls to come out of the ranks of the world, out of the churches--even the Catholic Church--whose zeal will far exceed that of those who have stood in rank and file to proclaim the truth heretofore.--3SM 386, 387 (1889).


God will bring His people out of Babylon.  He will bring them in the front door, not the backdoor. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 06, 2009, 04:42:42 PM
Let's remember that the eleventh hour workers come into the church. A guest speaker has not come into the church. They are visiting and welcome to do so but by the same token... until they have accepted the three angel's messages they should not be giving our people a message but rather hearing it. While a non SDA visitor is welcome and even urged to attend our church, as far as I am concerned, he has no message for good that our own do not have....but he does have error. Aspects of this error cannot help but bleed through into his message until he is familiar with, seated and grounded in the three angel's messages. While some non SDAs can and do hold the same principles as we do they cannot help but have some fact confused. That's what babylon means.. "confusion."  Everybody has got some truth. I have serious doubts though that #1 even the best of those in babylon can present truth that we do not have within our own ranks and #2 do so without bringing in error, subtle though it may or may not be.

I would still like to know what light today can come from babylon that God's remnant is without ?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 06, 2009, 05:10:22 PM
AMEN!!!!!!!  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Arnie on February 06, 2009, 05:15:08 PM

I would still like to know what light today can come from babylon that God's remnant is without ?

Sister White addresses that issue also. But, for some reason I can not find the statement. The remnant are to give the message calling people out of Babylon, and God has raised up this church to do that, and no other church. If I can find it, I will post it. Also this text shows us that God does not want us going else where.

Jeremiah 2: 13
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Arnie on February 06, 2009, 05:20:12 PM
Found it.. had it saved..

"We are in danger of making blunders in our missionary effort, in danger of failing to realize how essential is the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart. A new order of things has come into the ministry. There is a desire to pattern after other churches, and simplicity and humility are almost unknown"... (Signs of the Times, Dec. 27, 1889)

If God has any new light to communicate, He will let His chosen and beloved understand it, without their going to have their minds enlightened by hearing those who are in darkness and error. {EW 124.2}

"Some ministers are adopting the customs of other churches, copying their habits and manner of labor." (ibid., May 25, 1882)

"They may desire us to unite with them and accept their plans, and may make propositions in regard to our course of action which may give the enemy an advantage over us." (General Conference Bulletin, April 13, 1891)

I was shown the necessity of those who believe that we are having the last message of mercy, being separate from those who are daily imbibing new errors. I saw that neither young nor old should attend their meetings; for it is wrong to thus encourage them while they teach error that is a deadly poison to the soul and teach for doctrines the commandments of men. The influence of such gatherings is not good. If God has delivered us from such darkness and error, we should stand fast in the liberty wherewith He has set us free
125
and rejoice in the truth. God is displeased with us when we go to listen to error, without being obliged to go; for unless He sends us to those meetings where error is forced home to the people by the power of the will, He will not keep us. The angels cease their watchful care over us, and we are left to the buffetings of the enemy, to be darkened and weakened by him and the power of his evil angels; and the light around us becomes contaminated with the darkness. {EW 124.3}
..................................

The early church is a model of true "church growth." This was not because the apostles preached what the listeners wanted to hear. Paul did not begin his work in Corinth or Ephesus in taking surveys and studying demographics. The pen of inspiration reveals why the disciples were so effective... They had not modeled their faith and teaching to suit the desires of their hearers, nor kept back truths essential to salvation in order to make their teaching more attractive. They had presented the truth with simplicity and clearness, praying for the conviction and conversion of souls. And they had endeavored to bring their conduct into harmony with their teaching, that the truth presented might commend itself to every man's conscience. {AA 330.1}

...........................

At the present day, Satan gains power over God's people, by means of those false brethren who, while at heart friends of the world, exert an influence in the church. These are the most efficient workers that the great deceiver can employ. They are constantly seeking to lessen the enmity between the church of Christ and his deadliest foe. They supply the connecting link whereby he can unite the church and the world. Here lies our present danger,--a danger against which we must constantly guard. While we should make all possible effort to save souls, deeming no self-denial or sacrifice too great to effect this purpose, we must at the same time maintain our allegiance to God. {RH, July 18, 1882 par. 17}

Christ had foretold that deceivers would arise, through whose influence "iniquity" should "abound," and "the love of many" should "wax cold." Matthew 24:12. He had warned the disciples that the church would be in more danger from this evil than from the persecution of her enemies. Again and again Paul warned the believers against these false teachers. This peril, above all others, they must guard against; for by receiving false teachers, they would open the door to errors by which the enemy would dim the spiritual perceptions and shake the confidence of those newly come to the faith of the gospel. Christ was the standard by which they were to test the doctrines presented. All that was not in harmony with His teachings they were to reject. Christ crucified for sin, Christ risen from the dead, Christ ascended on high--this was the science of salvation that they were to learn and teach. {AA 473.3}
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 06, 2009, 06:16:11 PM
AMEN!!!!!!!!!  :-) My thoughts exactly.  I think it's called discernment.

Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 07, 2009, 01:10:54 PM
Oh, Lily, this is flawed thinking and potentially very dangerous. God has not called us to trade messages with babylon no matter how respectable babylon's motives might be.

What are you going to do,Lily when the visiting speaker speaks error  as you really never know for sure what they will say? What will you do if a speaker breaks out with a brief session of tongues? How courteous would it seem if the person was asked to leave in the middle of the sermon? The other option would be to allow something to continue that should not be. How courteous would it be if several of our people walk out and who will receive the blood on their  hands  when error preached from the pulpit takes root in the minds of some of our people. While we are not immuned to error even with our own people (obviously) at least we are on the same playing field and there is some accountability involved. What happens if something a visiting pastor from another church preaches tickles some of our membership and they decide to start attending the pentecostal church to hear the preacher and end up out of our church? Your premise is loaded with danerous scenerios

If the Catholic church invites Doug Bachelor to preach in one of their churches should we invite Pope Benedict to preach in ours ?
The standard ought to be high for any person who is to be invited to preach from our pulpits.  Cp, I am not advocating allowing just any non-SDA to preach in our churches - indeed, there would only be rare instances where it would be appropriate.  Indeed, there are a good few SDAs  who probably ought not to be occupying our pulpits.  You wouldn't invite a non-SDA speaker without knowing what they were going to be preaching.  The invitation is to speak on a particular message they have that is worth us hearing.   Perhaps it would be more appropriate to have them speak for an afternoon meeting?  I wasn't suggesting trading speakers with Babylon.  Whatever and whoever we invite and allow in a Sabbath service, whether it be the speaker or musicians, must represent something we are willing to be accountable for in heaven's eyes and in terms of its impact on every person in the congregation.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 07, 2009, 02:08:48 PM
What could they possibly teach us?  We ARE the standard bearers of truth.   They have nothing to give me.   Let them become converted and ordained.  Then I may listen.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 07, 2009, 03:06:59 PM
Lily;

Could you share what someone not of our faith has to offer from our pulpit (of significance)  that we do not have ?   
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: SDA4Life on February 07, 2009, 03:34:28 PM
Here is a link to a short article written by the NPUC ministerial director regarding who should preach in SDA pulpits:

http://npucnewsletter.wordpress.com/2007/02/28/who-should-be-allowed-to-preach-in-adventist-pulpits/ (http://npucnewsletter.wordpress.com/2007/02/28/who-should-be-allowed-to-preach-in-adventist-pulpits/)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 07, 2009, 06:12:52 PM
Here is a link to a short article written by the NPUC ministerial director regarding who should preach in SDA pulpits:

http://npucnewsletter.wordpress.com/2007/02/28/who-should-be-allowed-to-preach-in-adventist-pulpits/ (http://npucnewsletter.wordpress.com/2007/02/28/who-should-be-allowed-to-preach-in-adventist-pulpits/)

That seems like a very minimal safety net.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: SDA4Life on February 07, 2009, 07:07:17 PM
That seems like a very minimal safety net.

It is, but the guidelines do require membership. We need to guard the pulpit. If someone is an expert on a topic (not spiritual but health or finance, etc.) who is not a member then hold a meeting elsewhere, but guard the pulpit.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 07, 2009, 07:13:02 PM
What could they possibly teach us?  We ARE the standard bearers of truth.   They have nothing to give me.   Let them become converted and ordained.  Then I may listen.

Wow.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 07, 2009, 08:12:25 PM
WOW! for sure.   I just feel that if I don't stand for this; I will fall for anything, sooner or later.  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 08, 2009, 12:36:17 AM
Quote:

"What could they possibly teach us?  We ARE the standard bearers of truth.   They have nothing to give me.   Let them become converted and ordained.  Then I may listen."
-------------------------------------------------------------

Where is the spirit of grace and humility? Is it possible to come to the point where we can say we ARE the standard bearers of truth?

I am very troubled by this spirit and attitude. Even if it were true that we had a total corner on the truth, would this type of spirit be pleasing to the Lord?

Jesus said in John 13:34,35:

 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 08, 2009, 06:41:53 AM
Let it be noticed that to say that there is a remnant church with a specific message is being considered lacking humility. This is from babylon. "Come out of her my people."

This is not a matter of "we've got it look at us"  as some would like to categorize us,.....its a matter of "we've have been given a specific  and pointed mesaage to give, weak and feeble though we be, and those not in the message should not be invited to teach us variations of the false evangelical ,ecumenical gospel. While everybody has some truth, those who are ignorant of this specific endtime message and that hold false doctrine are not equipped to rightly guide and lead the church that is to give the Loud Cry !   These folks will either flagrantly or subtly lead our people to the false gospel and tempt our people to give the lord cry...."come into babylon ye people and do not be obstanant Sabbath keepers."

To hold to uncompromising truth and to remain unmovable, holding firm while the winds of doctrine are blowing is being labeled everything but what it is, "The faith of Jesus". We are in the sealing time and many voices are trying to move planted feet and call them proud or arrogant because they will not walk the way of death and eternal destruction by giving up truth.

While some in our church seem to be very blessed with reading many books from many places while bracing against the books from the prophet. I believe the more accurate adjective is "leavened." The sad part is that leavening typically happens slowly and consistently in such a manner that it is hardly noticeable. This is not unlike situations where folks  think they are blessed by christian rock. How blessed are they? Many have thought they were blessed by Warren's Purpose Driven Church books. I believe the vast amount of these books and speakers simple leaven our people as the church "appears to fall." The good news its that "the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus" will go through.

Here is my challenge for folks who think there are those not of our faith that have relevent, end time truth which we need but do not have within our ranks.... "What is it?"

Unless you can answer this, I can only assume you wish them to present error to us. What truth do those in babylon have a handle on that the remant church lacks?  If you are going to make statements that are eccentiually this, why not explain just what you are talking about ? No sliding off to the side here. We are talking about "today" in the closing months of this earth's history.

Since this is an Adventist forum and all here either are or try to appear to be SDA this  claimed truth outside of our church should be something we do not have but can be and must be valided in the Scriptures and the Testimony of Jesus. I will await  evidence that would support such claims otherwise it necessitates writing off the posts as unsupportable speculation and falacy.




Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: 1WVMom on February 08, 2009, 06:50:53 AM
I was raised SDA, but very loosely....As an adult I was attending a Baptist church.  I had a discussion with my father about it one day and he quoted to me Isaiah 8:20  it doesn't not say there is a little light take what you can....so, why would we ask someone to speak in our pulpit if they have no light?

I don't know about having someone from another denomination speak at a meeting in our churches like on finances etc but I do not believe we should have them in our pulpit on Sabbath morning....

It is amazing to me because this same college that invited this non SDA preach, it is common knowledge that they will not let Doug Batchelor preach in their church....                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 08, 2009, 06:59:03 AM
As Martin Luther once said, "Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen."  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 08, 2009, 07:17:11 AM
I was raised SDA, but very loosely....As an adult I was attending a Baptist church.  I had a discussion with my father about it one day and he quoted to me Isaiah 8:20  it doesn't not say there is a little light take what you can....so, why would we ask someone to speak in our pulpit if they have no light?

I don't know about having someone from another denomination speak at a meeting in our churches like on finances etc but I do not believe we should have them in our pulpit on Sabbath morning....

It is amazing to me because this same college that invited this non SDA preach, it is common knowledge that they will not let Doug Batchelor preach in their church....                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

Excellant points. The truth is that we have people who are very estute in the realm of financing. I don't think it is so much that our people do not know about financing but that they will not deny themselves and choose to make wise decisions.

By their fruit? When they will  not let our well respected pastors speak from our pulpits but would rather invite A Baptist preacher, the leadership are in reality Baptist in SDA clothing. The laity are not much different who allow such.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 08, 2009, 08:03:36 AM
 
 Ellen G. White Estate
Ellen G. White: The Early Years Volume 1 - 1827-1862, By Arthur L. White (1985) , page 478, paragraph 7
Chapter Title: (1861) The Clouds of War
2.  Shall preachers from other denominations embracing the message  preach and baptize among us, on the strength of their former ordination and standing as ministers?


Ellen G. White Estate
Ellen G. White: The Early Years Volume 1 - 1827-1862, By Arthur L. White (1985) , page 479, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: (1861) The Clouds of War
Matters for Conference Consideration

2. Resolved, That ministers of other denominations, embracing present truth, should give proof of being called to preach the message, and be ordained among us, before administering the ordinances.

This clearly states that they have to accept the message and be ordained in SDA to preach in SDA.  

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 08, 2009, 12:20:48 PM
Cp, I don't believe that it would  be wise to make a rule about every potential problem that we anticipate. I'm sure that there are few that would argue that great care shoud be taken and common sense should prevail when scheduling anyone, even SDAs, to preach in our churches.  That is a good thing.

I agree with you that as Seventh-day Adventists, we are called by God with a special mission to preach a special message to God's people to come out of Babylon. It is illogical to  turn around and take the position that there are God's people who are still in Babylon but they have nothing to say or to share with us. They must always listen to us but we must never listen to them. That is a message that would be a sure fire way to turn people away from the truth. I agree, as the link states, that a person who is not an Adventist should have the OK by the Conference as well as the local pastor and elders before they are allowed to preach or lecture or teach in our churches.
However, as Arnie reports from his conference, there is no guarantee that will keep out error.

You ask the question "What do they have to teach us that we do not already know?" If you think about it for a minute you should notice that it is not a logical question.  It is the type of question that is used by proponants of rock music. "Show me where it says in the Bible that I cannot play my drums in church, etc.

I think we are in basic agreement in principle, but I believe that there may be occasion when someone from another denomination may have something that is worth hearing. I recall that Bill Ring once spoke at the General Conference. I'm not sure it was a Sabbath worship service. He may be a "one trick pony" as you once suggested, but he does have an inspiring message.  There are others who are taking a firm stand against the apostasy in the Sunday churches  and are more outspoken than we are in exposing the aims and errors of the papacy who are well worth listening to.

My main point is that we should definately have safeguards and policys to protect our churches, but I don't believe a rigid rule is the answer.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 08, 2009, 04:13:47 PM
I didn't say I couldn't learn from other people.  I said non SDA pastors have nothing to teach me in SDA pulpit.  I give bible studies often.  I listen to what others say.  I know in order for them to listen to me; I must listen to them.  I am the epitome of tact when it comes to giving studies. 

That said, I know from more than 30 + years in the church that we have excellent speakers.  I know also that God raises men for that very reason.  They come, they get converted, they get ordained.  I'm not blind either to some problems within the church but God will deal with that, in His own time. 

God is very jealous of His Church.  We should not tread where angels fear to tread.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 08, 2009, 04:50:57 PM
I didn't say I couldn't learn from other people.  I said non SDA pastors have nothing to teach me in SDA pulpit.  I give bible studies often.  I listen to what others say.  I know in order for them to listen to me; I must listen to them.  I am the epitome of tact when it comes to giving studies. 

That said, I know from more than 30 + years in the church that we have excellent speakers.  I know also that God raises men for that very reason.  They come, they get converted, they get ordained.  I'm not blind either to some problems within the church but God will deal with that, in His own time. 

God is very jealous of His Church.  We should not tread where angels fear to tread.

Thank you Kayak. I appreciate your experience and input.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 08, 2009, 05:27:09 PM
One example of how non-SDA teachers help SDA teachers has to do with the excellent book by Thomas Mostert called "Hidden Heresy".

John MacArthur, pastor for 40 years at Grace Community Church,  www.gty.org , gave permission to Elder Mostert to use an entire chapter from John's book "Ashamed of the Gospel".  MacArthur has been very outspoken against the Rick Warrens of the world, and is especially good in exposing the RCC church as Larry mentioned in an earlier post.

Read this sermon and see if you don't think that this is one of the most stinging indictments against the RCC:

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-291

but if you get a chance please try to listen to John deliver this sermon as you can click on listen and download the sermon for free.

Agatha posted another link on another thread of a sermon by a southern Baptist named Paul Washer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

This sermon is really a barnburner. This could easily have been delivered by a conservative SDA. At least try to listen to a part of it to see if you don't agree.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 08, 2009, 06:08:22 PM
The first guy stomps on RC's with a vengance but if you go to their Q&A link, they have plenty to say about the sabbath.   
For instance:

So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath."

As to the first reason, there is no doubt that it ceased in Christ; because he is the truth by the presence of which all images vanish. He is the reality at whose advent all shadows are abandoned. Hence St. Paul (Col. 2:17)

This is what he says about SDA.  

 I read a commentator this week who said, "The hundred and forty-four thousand isn't an exact number, it's just a symbol for all the church."  Wrong.  That's...that's a cop out, that's just double talk.  Another one said, "It's just a symbol of the Tribulation saints that survive."  There are so many strange views.  Seventh Day Adventist writer, M.L. Andrason(?) in his writing called The Sanctuary Source maintains that the last generation of Christians on this earth, which he calls the old earth, will live completely without sin, sinless and thus give a final demonstration of what God can do with humanity.  This is a little hard for me to believe that any generation of Christians could live without sin, particularly the ones who are on the earth when all hell is breaking loose and the restrainer is gone.

     The writer, this Seventh Day Adventist writer further says, This final demonstration will follow the example of Christ and...quote: "Prove that which God did in Christ He can do in every human being who submits to Him," end quote.  So, he is saying it will be a group of Christians who are as sinless as Jesus.

     Now, if you happen to be a Seventh Day Adventist you know that the most important act of righteousness is to keep the Sabbath.  And if you follow the logic a little bit, it's going to be a hundred and forty-four thousand perfect Seven Day Adventists. 

This is on his call in radio show.
JOHN:  ...and I think I've heard you say on one of your tapes that you've referred to Seventh Day Adventists as our friends and if that's possible, I think I've heard you say that.  And I wonder if Ellen G. White is a false prophet, if...

JOHN MACARTHUR:  Well, basically, and I don't want to get into too much on this cause it would take a long time.  Ellen G. White, let me approach it another way.  Yeah, Ellen G. White was not a true prophet, no question about that.

JOHN:  They claim her to be a prophet ________________.

JOHN MACARTHUR:  Well, some of them do.  There's probably going to be a split in the Seventh Day Adventists.  I just got a letter about, it was kind of an interesting letter.  They asked me to speak at their five-year quintennial with 1,200 of their pastors and their national meeting.  They invited me to be the speaker.  They said we need to hear your message.  About a week later they called up and said we've changed our mind.  See, but that's okay.  What that showed me was there's a tremendous tension.  Many of them are moving away.  Through the years, there has been, in the midst of the Seventh Day Adventists movement, a remnant of real believers and I think those are the ones to whom I would refer.  There are some who are still banking on their salvation based on their legalism and they're lost.  But when I use the word "friend," friends, Roman, countrymen, lend me your ear, you know, that's a big word.

JOHN:  Yeah, ____________________.

JOHN MACARTHUR:  _____________________.  I was raised in a Seventh Day Adventists community over in Glendale right at the foot of the hospital.  In fact, all my sisters were born at the hospital.  Myself, I was born Catholic at St. Vincent's (laughter).  But they were all born...they were all born Seventh Day Adventists, you know.  All my kids have been born in that hospital...the Adventists Hospital.  And so we've talked to the doctors and, you know, I've gone through these things many, many times.  I believe that in that...in that group, there are many people who really know Christ and they're moving away and they're, sort of, debunking some of the past and there's a movement to come out that's probably going to precipitate a split.

That man doesn't know WHY he is protesting against the pope.  This guy teaches RC doctrine on every page,  he doesn't know what prostesting means.   He denigrates SDA too.


So, tell me again what's good about McArthur's teaching?

I heard Paul Washer on youtube.  He was very good but I imagine he feels the same way about the sabbath.  If I can contact him in some way, I will ask. 

It doesn't take long to find a trail of stink if you dig deep.


Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 08, 2009, 06:45:51 PM
Kayak, no one is calling for non SDA ministers to come to our churches and preach or teach us doctrine. The point is that the church has is no rigid rule that in certain circumstances would prevent someone of another denomination to share a particular message in our church.

We are not interested in John Macarthur's theology of the Sabbath, or his opinion of Ellen White. What Stan was pointing out and what I agree with is that He has very clear and pointed thoughts on the RCC as well as Rick Warren etc. that should be heard. Tom Mostert and Rick Warren are the only two SDA ministers that I know of who have written books that point out these dangers, and tragically, many of our pastors and even whole conferences are still heading in that direction. Just ask Arnie.
The point is not whether to invite John Macarthur  or anyone else in particular to address our people. The point is that we don't and shouldn't have have a rigid rules about it. We should exercise sanctified judgement, discernment, and common sense in deciding who is in our pulpits whether they are Adventists or otherwise.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 08, 2009, 06:51:54 PM
I'm sorry Larry, I just don't get your reasoning.   But that's ok.  I learn a lot from forums such and these.   :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 08, 2009, 08:04:12 PM
Kayak, no one is calling for non SDA ministers to come to our churches and preach or teach us doctrine. The point is that the church has is no rigid rule that in certain circumstances would prevent someone of another denomination to share a particular message in our church.

We are not interested in John Macarthur's theology of the Sabbath, or his opinion of Ellen White. What Stan was pointing out and what I agree with is that He has very clear and pointed thoughts on the RCC as well as Rick Warren etc. that should be heard. Tom Mostert and Rick Warren are the only two SDA ministers that I know of who have written books that point out these dangers, and tragically, many of our pastors and even whole conferences are still heading in that direction. Just ask Arnie.
The point is not whether to invite John Macarthur  or anyone else in particular to address our people. The point is that we don't and shouldn't have have a rigid rules about it. We should exercise sanctified judgement, discernment, and common sense in deciding who is in our pulpits whether they are Adventists or otherwise.


I believe the sanctified judgement that we should exercise is that of not allowing those who reject our message or are ignorant of such to stand behind our pulpits. With all due respect we do not need someone who rubs our prophet's nose in the dirt telling us about the papacy. I commend to our people Walter Veith. Kayak, I agree with you 100%  We also have people in our church who speak clearly, warning about Rick Warren. The only difference is that non SDAs who speak about such only have a piece of the puzzle but miss the big picture. I do not think anyone outside our denomination has more wisdom and insight into the papacy and Willowcreek than our own people. The problem is that some of our churches resist our own faithful speakers because they will not be controlled by leaders in conferences who are walking in lockstep with both the papacy and Rick Warren.

I agree Kayak. I listen very closely to those of many other faiths when I am in their homes and I agree with them where I can, but I do not invite them to teach the Sabbath school lesson or give a sermon. Shall we invite Macarther to preach in our churches about the papacy and expect that he will not undermine truth.

I would still like to see new light and insight into the papacy and Rick Warren that Sunday Keepers have, and yet Walter Veith, Evan Saddler, Jan Marcussen, and a long list of others are not exposing on a daily basis. Is there no prophet in Israel ?   

I believe true Adventist pride is when we think we can wallow through the mud of error and because we are in the SDA church, come away unscathed. We are not to listen to error seeking for new light.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 08, 2009, 08:24:36 PM
Amen colporteur.  What you have written has brought tears to my eyes.  I am jealous of our message. I'm like a tiger with her cubs when it comes to this situation.  I don't want our lovely message muddied with some high falutin', anti-SDA, anti-truth messenger. If they can't love our message, then they can keep right on moving.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 08, 2009, 08:41:43 PM
I know one thing Kayyak.... I do not wish to have the blood on my hands of those who turned to these non SDA sermons and were led to wander out of the truth and accept a false gospel. This is Satan's plan. It will be of no conselation for one who has bought into MacArthur's  falsehoods to know that the papacy is a bad guy. There are a host of indicators as to what the papacy is doing. We can see the Great Controversy being fulfilled before our eyes.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 08, 2009, 08:53:20 PM
Cp, I don't believe that it would  be wise to make a rule about every potential problem that we anticipate. I'm sure that there are few that would argue that great care shoud be taken and common sense should prevail when scheduling anyone, even SDAs, to preach in our churches. I notice in the link to the article by the North Pacific Union President, (Jerry Patzer?) that there is a warning against using Leo Schefrin. (Sp?) That is a good thing. There are others that could be mentioned as well.

I think, Larry that the principle is that God does not give cutting edge light to those in these last days, who work directly and specifically against His prophets and last day church. Satan may be giving this information with almost imperceptable hooks and while planting subtle doubts about things we little realize. For some in our church they may be so impressed with this man's information on the papacy and such that they decide to investigate other areas of this man's theology... to their eternal destruction.

There should be far more warnings about others in our church.  _______ is just the tip of the iceberg. There were apparent problems with him many years ago.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 08, 2009, 08:56:39 PM

Ellen G. White Estate
Manuscript Releases Volume Sixteen [Nos. 1186-1235] (1990), page 8, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: MR No. 1186 - Wrongdoing to be Condemned; Righteousness to be Exalted
A Call to Watchfulness and Prayer.

The time is at hand when the case of every soul will be decided. The Lord calls upon those who are truly converted to watch and pray; for the controversy between truth and error will increase in intensity. The Bible is to be the man of our counsel.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 09, 2009, 10:01:35 AM
I was raised SDA, but very loosely....As an adult I was attending a Baptist church.  I had a discussion with my father about it one day and he quoted to me Isaiah 8:20  it doesn't not say there is a little light take what you can....so, why would we ask someone to speak in our pulpit if they have no light?

I don't know about having someone from another denomination speak at a meeting in our churches like on finances etc but I do not believe we should have them in our pulpit on Sabbath morning....

It is amazing to me because this same college that invited this non SDA preach, it is common knowledge that they will not let Doug Batchelor preach in their church....                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

What college?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 09, 2009, 10:03:17 AM
Excellant points. The truth is that we have people who are very estute in the realm of financing. I don't think it is so much that our people do not know about financing but that they will not deny themselves and choose to make wise decisions.

Not within the organization! In membership...sure.

By their fruit? When they will  not let our well respected pastors speak from our pulpits but would rather invite A Baptist preacher, the leadership are in reality Baptist in SDA clothing. The laity are not much different who allow such.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 09, 2009, 10:14:02 AM
After I went to the churches web site to see if indeed this man did speak there, yes it is true that he did.  They also said he was the speaker at the pastor's meeting....I believe of the Southern Union.  So, I guess our local conference probably does not have a problem with him...

The things on this man's web site goes against what we believe....so, regardless of whether he said anything about Ellen White, he does NOT need to be speaking in our churches nor to our pastors....

What church? Who was the speaker? Please inform us so we can make an accurate and informed decision on this incident. What were the topics in question? what is his website?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Richard OFfill on February 09, 2009, 03:53:14 PM
I just scrolled down this thread. I didn't read every word but without having done so I would like to share some of my own convictions on the impact that other churches are having on some of us.

1. I read certain authors, especially those of the 19th century such as EM Bounds and Andrew Murray. From the 20th century I am deeply inspired to read AW Tozer. John McArthur's books on the contemporay movement - mostly music etc.were excellent. For a while I bought all the books that he was writing. Then I ran into his book on predestination and realized that there must be a parting of the ways.

2. I would not have a minister from another faith speak in my church or at a worker's meeting. The later, in my way of thinking is a serious mistake and is being done.I do not agree that we should study at their seminaries such as Fuller. Ministry Magazine will use several at an upcoming Ministerial event. I disagree.

3. While there are genuine ones in their midst, the ideology that they represent is hostile to the message that this church is meant to preach. How can they be our ideological friends when our message is to come out of Babylon. I believe that as a group the evangelicals have a vested interested in seeing our believe in the Spirit of Prophecy and the investigative judgment eliminated.  Watch   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbrQaz7IOS8

4. The danger in inviting them in is that we find ourselves diluting our message. I have said more than once that having them to speak to us as a group is not only causing us to downplay our message but also to be congregationalist in our outlook. In this case familiarity breeds more familiarity. Our church in may respects is being split.

A person persuaded against their will is of the same opinion still. I am not convinced that our forte should be an attack but rather we should represent a third option.

To be on the attack is to put ourselves in bad company. It is possible to be a so-called conservative while really being a people hater and those who hate Catholics will easily, when the time comes,be a hater of us. We must not align ourselves with those be them on the right or the left who are without knowing it working together. The net result will be to frustrate and even make impossible the work that called has called on us to do.

The Spirit of Prophesy is being attacked of that there is no doubt. But in defending the 'Lesser Light' we should not do so at the expense the 'Greater Light". Many do nothing but quote the SOP and read scripture very little. Jesus quoted Scripture and so should we.

As many are aware, I have written a book entitled Lord, Save My Church -Tackling the Tough Issues. In it there is much that has to do with some of the issues we face including some on this thread. You may obtain one at the ABC

http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/browse.tpl (http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/browse.tpl)

Perhaps I came into this discussion late and am not aware of its nuances. If I have misspoken I didn't mean to.

Well, I guess I've said enough.  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 09, 2009, 04:34:23 PM
Thank you Pastor O'Ffill. 

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit spealketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 09, 2009, 06:42:14 PM
I just scrolled down this thread. I didn't read every word but without having done so I would like to share some of my own convictions on the impact that other churches are having on some of us.

1. I read certain authors, especially those of the 19th century such as EM Bounds and Andrew Murray. From the 20th century I am deeply inspired to read AW Tozer. John McArthur's books on the contemporay movement - mostly music etc.were excellent. For a while I bought all the books that he was writing. Then I ran into his book on predestination and realized that there must be a parting of the ways.


Pastor,
There are a lot of good Christian people who have believed the Reformed or Calvinist viewpoint on salvation, and take views on predestination that not all folks agree on, but the Calvinist vs Arminian debate has been going on for centuries. Luther and Calvin both believed that it was this doctrine that most clearly separated them from the Roman Catholic Church who was arminian or semipelagain in style. Most people don't know that Luther believed in predestination just as strongly as Calvin, and Calvinism was brought to America by the Puritans.

Ellen White was a big fan of John Bunyan. She wrote that "Bunyan breathed the very air of heaven", and she recommended Pilgrim's Progress. John Bunyan was a staunch Calvinist, but yet this does not disqualify him to be able to expound on the greatness of God, and we can learn great things from his writings as well as many of the Puritans. I have posted several Puritan prayers on here, and I have a book of them I read, and they are some of the most inspiring prayers I have ever read.

You mention Andrew Murray, who is also a Calvinist, and MacArthur.  But these men do inspire a real sense of the Holiness of God, and emphasize obedience and holy living. MacArthur has a soft spot in his heart for SDAs, since all of his kids were born at Glendale Adventist hospital. Many of my very conservative SDA relatives love to read MacArthur because they see a devoted sense of the importance of holiness in the life of a true believer.

Charles Spurgeon was another great preacher who was a Calvinist, and his sermons are very inspiring to read. He was most outspoken in his day about churches who use amusements to get people to church. His famous sermon on this topic is called "Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats"

http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/Church/Spurgeon.htm

This sermon could well have been just as pertinent today.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 09, 2009, 07:17:46 PM
That youtube clip really upset me.  He made one accusation that he did not give the source....  makes me wonder about that one...  I never had read anything in SOP that says what the man claims.   I think they are a bit confused between us and JWs.  Just my impression. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Richard OFfill on February 09, 2009, 07:38:53 PM
I mentioned that I was helped with MacArthur's books on the contemporary movement. It is just that when he got into an apologetic for predestination he was no longer speaking to my "felt needs"  :-)

To me there is no doubt that on a doctrinal head to head the evangelicals are against what we espouse. Believing in liberty of conscience each one my believe as they chose.

My concern is that  among an increasing number of our pastors and people, the trend is toward their ideology, not theirs to ours. Some feel that if we emulate their methods, we will get their results. Frankly our problem is that we go to church on the wrong day and the masses have never signed up to do the will of God.

Perhaps the question is, is there such a thing as truth for a time. If those who read this post have five minutes or so please read my sermon entitled Are Adventists the Only True Christians. You will see where I am coming from and I believe you will be surprised.

http://www.revivalsermons.org/sermons/adventists_true_christians.shtml (http://www.revivalsermons.org/sermons/adventists_true_christians.shtml)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 09, 2009, 08:10:23 PM
Pastor, my main concern on this thread was not so much solving the problem of whether or not a non Adventist minister should ever be allowed to speak in an Adventist church.  When we discuss topics related to people of other faiths, we can sometimes shoot ourselves in the foot by displaying  a lack of humility and an attitude of spiritual pride and superiority.  This is an open forum and we often have many guests who read and do not post.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 10, 2009, 07:11:59 AM
http://www.revivalsermons.org/sermons/adventists_true_christians.shtml (http://www.revivalsermons.org/sermons/adventists_true_christians.shtml)

Amen to that   :salute:
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 10, 2009, 07:36:03 AM
Excuse me for being arrogant and cultish but, Me thinks it's more acceptable to post anti-SDA and other non-SDA garbage on this site than to post EGW.   :uhoh:
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 10, 2009, 08:02:49 AM
Excuse me for being arrogant and cultish but, Me thinks it's more acceptable to post anti-SDA and other non-SDA garbage on this site than to post EGW.   :uhoh:

I've not noticed anyone discouraging you or anyone else from posting Ellen White's writings.

If your goal is to convince others to consider your views, using terms other than "garbage" to refer to what they post might be helpful.  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 10, 2009, 08:03:35 AM
As it is being advocated that it is commendable or  at least acceptable that we point to past author's who speak straitly against our message, I comment to you Ellen G. White.

I wonder how many of our people that read and advocate other authors, which hold considerable error, have read all that the prophet of the end has written. I find it interesting that many in our church who have read only segements of the Spirit of Prophecy are willing to read and point others to authors who put down the SOP, the Sabbath, and other aspects of the three angel's messages. Is there no prophet in Israel.

I am still curious to hear what new light and insight non SDA authors have on the closing events of this earth's history that EGW did not refer to and that some of our most faithful evangelists do not address.  Why point the spot light away from truth to those who present truth and error. This is just how the world lost the true Sabbath. Will we learn? Is there no prophet in Israel ?  
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Richard OFfill on February 10, 2009, 10:32:12 AM
You would like The Best of AW Tozer. It occurs to me that inasmuch as there are not enough of us to speak in Sunday churches each week, that God may see fit to raise up men and women in those churches who will be messengers to His 'sheep not of this fold'.

I am convinced that collectively the evangelicals mean harm to the Adventist message, yet having said that I also believe that there are faithful messengers in the other denominations. Mrs. White suggests that would be the case, but not now.

Please don't be mad at me, but until we let the Lord lead us into being 'loving and lovable' Christians to come among us could be dangerous to their spiritual health.

My heart is touched and I feel guilty when I read from James and  the three books of John as to how the Lord expects us to be with each other, yea more than expects, it is the sign of those who will be saved, that we loved the brethren. I am afraid that until then we, (gasp, blush) are like the pot calling the kettle black.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 10, 2009, 10:55:33 AM
Could you be more specific?  I am a little dense at times.  LOL  :uhoh:
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 10, 2009, 12:45:26 PM
As it is being advocated that it is commendable or  at least acceptable that we point to past author's who speak straitly against our message, I comment to you Ellen G. White.

I wonder how many of our people that read and advocate other authors, which hold considerable error, have read all that the prophet of the end has written. I find it interesting that many in our church who have read only segements of the Spirit of Prophecy are willing to read and point others to authors who put down the SOP, the Sabbath, and other aspects of the three angel's messages. Is there no prophet in Israel.

I am still curious to hear what new light and insight non SDA authors have on the closing events of this earth's history that EGW did not refer to and that some of our most faithful evangelists do not address.  Why point the spot light away from truth to those who present truth and error. This is just how the world lost the true Sabbath. Will we learn? Is there no prophet in Israel ?  
Your concerns are valid, Cp. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 10, 2009, 01:40:56 PM
Pastor;

You seem to imply that when we speak straitly that we are necessarily unloving. I'm not referring to calling people names or directly insulting them but speaking the truth without apologizing for it as though we err.

I believe the point could just as well be or even better be argued that to give error equal time and to soft coat everything in an attempt to be kind is to be unloving and unkind.

 Soli in post #57 brought in non SDA books as a reason for advocating by implication non SDA speakers in our pulpits. It is common practice to vary the topic in an effort to apply the reasoning to another topic.

I think the point that is typically missed when it comes to non SDA authors today and non SDA speakers in our churches is the trade off. Probably no one would argue against the fact that there are non SDA people out there with truth and insight. The question is....is the trade off worth it?  What light out there is so vitally important (which we in the SDA church lack) that we need to sort out all the error for. If there was a great lacking of truth in our church I could understand gambling a bit to search out and supply the loss.
    Probably Rick Warrens books have some truth. There may even be a few instances of helpful truth. My question is.... is there truth in these books and in these speakers that Israel needs to pursue at the risk of being leavened with error?   

Since we haver been told what would enter into our churches in the last days I believe if we error it should be on the side of caution.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 10, 2009, 02:04:18 PM
My point exactly.  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 10, 2009, 02:12:34 PM
While there are some principles that apply to both books and live speakers there are some significant differences. It is not difficult to close a book or skip a chapter. It is very difficult to turn off a speaker or skip part of his sermon. You can seldom be quite sure what a speaker will say and in the act of "kindness" they are  let run the entire sermon. They may not be invited back but the damage is already done. That's not to say that we do not have a great many SDA speakers who should not be behind the pulpit but I think it is responsible for us to at least start with a few ground rules. The bottom line is... when we invite those who know not or know but reject our message we are inviting trouble. We have enough of that with our own speakers.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Richard OFfill on February 10, 2009, 02:34:40 PM
Earlier I said that I don't think we should invite them to speak at our worker's meetings as is being done. There is no doubt that we are using the evangelicals as models. By the way, the latest severe challenge to us is "The Emerging Church" which has elements of spiritualism clear and simple.

I don't think it is a matter of trade off. To me it is not will it be one or the other.

By the way I believe that Warren has been a significant negative to our church. If he had three pages in a three hundred page book that were good, I still wouldn't waste my time.

We are definitely  absorbing more of the others than they are of us. Sad to say, it is my opinion that we are somewhat significantly involved in the ecumenical movement among Christians and to a much lesser but nonetheless a small degree with non-Christian religions.

I don't think it is winner take all. It is not either or. I mentioned Tozer, the the book I referenced is excellent barring non. I believe that in reading others it is possible to ascertain the core. If the core is flawed then I don't fool with them even if they recommend that we shouldn't forget Valentine's Day.  :wink:
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 10, 2009, 06:03:05 PM
Excuse me for being arrogant and cultish but, Me thinks it's more acceptable to post anti-SDA and other non-SDA garbage on this site than to post EGW.   :uhoh:

Kayyak,

That is a beautiful dog you have.

 I just wish you could be a little more charitable. I think we need to be very careful what we call garbage.

The Pastor has posted wonderful non-SDA material on another thread, and I don't see anything wrong with the specific links I posted on MacArthur or Paul Washer, and by the way, the Washer link was from Agatha, as she was very impressed by him.

Remember, Ellen White recommended reading non-SDA authors such as John Bunyan.  The same criticism which was lodged against me for posting MacArthur talking about the RCC could also be said of EGW's recommendation. She said "Bunyan breathed the very air of heaven".

Yet, just like MacArthur, I could link to some anti-Seventh Day Sabbath writing that Bunyan did. Does this mean that just because EGW recommended reading Bunyan's Pilgrim Progress that a person would be led to read his anti-Sabbath material, and thus lose his salvation?

Please read the promise of Jesus in John 10: 27-30

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30I and my Father are one."
----------------------------------------
No, MacArthur, Washer, or Bunyan will not be able to pluck them out of the hand of the Father and Son

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 10, 2009, 06:45:33 PM
Soli;

Did Bunyan speak against the SDA church and the church's prophet ?  I would like to investigate when in the experience of Mrs. White she made the comment about Bunyan. Early in her experience there was little to read that was SDA. Today we have a multitude of inspired books which were the outflow of dreams  and visions from God. Do you recommend the Great Controversy and Ministry of Healing ?

Pastor;

The title of this thread is about guest speakers of different denomiinations. You have said that you are not in favor of non SDAs speaking at our workers meetings. Do you feel the same about having them preach in our churches on Sabbath?

Do you think it is likely that many of our people can read non SDA books that contain truth and error without some of the subtle error taking root ? The same might be said about so many of our SDA books. I wish we were willing to continually point our people to books by EGW which we can have complete confidence in.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Richard OFfill on February 10, 2009, 07:22:54 PM
1- If I had a congregation I would not invite a minister from another faith to preach.

2. I have found no subtile error in the books that I have recommended. Error is error it is only subtile to those who might not know the difference.

3. I think that the reading of anything including the Spirit of Prophecy can easily become a substitute for a study of the Word. I personally don't think we do what the Spirit of Prophecy was meant to do when all of our points are made from a quotation from one of her books. We must be careful that we don't root and ground ourselves in the lesser light rather than the greater light. I hope I am wrong, but many have replaced Scripture with the Spirit of Prophesy. She continually quoted from Scripture, why don't we.

I was talking with a lady who had been recently baptized. She was having a problem with the Spirit of Prophesy. In a conversation, a person had said, "The Bible says, and Mrs. White confirmes it....."
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 10, 2009, 07:26:55 PM
Soli,

Thank you for the compliment on my dog.  His name is Stinky and is the most precious of God's creation.  

I'm sorry you think that I am not charitable. If you knew me, you would know that I am most charitable and tenderhearted.   I am grounded in scripture, and scripture tells me to stay away from wolves with doctrines of devils.   Sure those people may have some truth; I don't doubt that, but you cannot mix error with truth, and come away unscathed.   God raised the reformers to bring the people out of error. And we are supposed to go back into error? I wouldn't dare call them whores and prostitutes if Jesus didn't say it first.

Do you think the Holy Spirit would work in the hearts of people and protect their minds when they are hearing error?  I don't want to be blown about with every wind of doctrine.  Do you?

‘A lie is halfway round the world before the truth has got its boots on.’ But, eventually, truth gets booted and spurred, and the lie gets a good licking. [1996 National Review 6 May 6

As far as posting sites that denigrates SDA, (probably that wasn't your purpose) wouldn't it be better to post scripture concerning right or wrong?  We cannot go wrong with scripture.  And yes, it is garbage that speaks against SDA.   I am vigilant when I listen to SDA speakers too.  I ask for discernment.  Who wants to be caught up in error? Not me.  This isn't a one-for-all and all-for-one life when it comes to spiritual things.  We are on our own. My focus is on Jesus because no one else can take me to heaven on their back.  There is no sliding in the back door of heaven.  

If standing for truth is uncharitable, then I guess I am uncharitable.

1Cr 16:13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.  

Gal 5:1 Stand fast  therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.  

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.  

Est 3:2 And all the king's servants, that [were] in the king's gate, bowed, and reverenced Haman: for the king had so commanded concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did [him] reverence.  

I want to be a Mordecai, don't you?  :-)


Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 10, 2009, 08:28:29 PM
Kayak, if we stand for truth in a way that turns people off by sounding harsh and contentious, we are not standing for the truth. Jesus had some harsh rebukes to the Pharaisees but he never talked to the common people like that, even when they rejected Him.  He washed Judas' feet when he knew Judas was about to betray him. On the cross He prayed "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." 

I want to be more like Jesus but sometimes it is hard to restrain myself from coming back with a sharp reply, or a Bible text or Ellen White quote that proves that I am right and the other person is wrong. I believe that using the Bible and Ellen White's writings in order just to win an argument and destroy anothers argument so I can "Be Right" and prove the other person "WRONG!!" iis a misuse of those writings. . If we are not careful to avoid a argumentive and contentious attitude when we deal with those with whom we seem to disagree, we can be in danger of engaging in spiritual abuse.  That is apparantly common on some discussion forums.

So you understand where I am coming from, we have had sad and difficult experiences on this forum in the past with people who want to fight about things, or who have a private agenda that they want to push. This tends to elicit the worst in people. We have learned to try to maintain a curteous Christian attitude on the forum as we discuss God's truths with one another, even when we disagree, keeping in mind that there have been as many as  as many as 30 or 40 guests at one time reading our threads and our posts. But it is true that sometimes it is hard to maintain a Christian attitude.

We use to have a list of guidelines for participation on the forum but we were hacked last summer and we lost it and have neglected to finish posting another one. One of the guidelines is to keep things on a curteous and respectful basis.

I appreciate your participation and your willingness to engage in the discussions. It has been very quiet on the forum for several weeks, but things have been picking up.

God bless
Larry
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 10, 2009, 08:38:10 PM
Well, I guess I can't quote EGW, Bible or?  I had nothing more to say anyway.  Thank you for your time and courtesy.
 :-D
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 10, 2009, 09:10:02 PM
Well, I guess I can't quote EGW, Bible or?  I had nothing more to say anyway.  Thank you for your time and courtesy.
 :-D
Kayak, I guess I wasn't clear. I was talking about using the Bible and Ellen White writings as clubs to beat people up with. If you read through the various topics, you will see that we all, as far as I can tell, hold EGW and The Bible in the highest regard.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 11, 2009, 07:23:00 AM
It should be made clear that the "Aventist authors only"position has never been the official position of the Church. Nor was it a stated position of Ellen White. In fact, her practice was to read widely among a variety of non-Adventist authors.  (I know that there were not many Adventist authors in her day. However, there is no evidence that she would read only Adventist authors today. Such a view is nothing more than an assumption.)

If someone wishes to read only Adventist authors, that is their right. However, it should be recognized that it is just and only that: their personal position. In my opinion, to impose such a view on others violates a core principle of God's government -- freedom.

I remiain a Seventh-day Adventist Christian because I have had the freedom to read widely and consider the arguments of both Adventists and those who disagree with us.  If I had been told when I was baptized that I could henceforth read only Adventist authors, I would probably not be an Adventist any longer. The God who said "Come, let us reason together" and who has run such great risks of being misunderstood would not, in my opinion, require that I read only those books and articles written by Adventists.

I know whereof I speak. I grew up in Adventist home but had my doubts as I entered my twenties. I really came to meet and begin to know God through the writings of non-Adventist authors. If an "Adventist only" position had been drummed into me as a youth, I probably would have been turned off to God altogether. (And if Baptists thought like this, we would have a very hard time converting anyone....)

There are some who, having accepted the truth, settle into it and see not further need for investigation. That is just fine. I am sure that they love God. But there are many, many people who want to accept God's invitation to "come and reason" together. The fact that some read and find blessing in non-Adventist authors should not be seen as a threat by those who do not. Nor should those who do so be penalized or looked at as "less Adventist" than those whose devotional reading consists entirely of Ellen White and the pioneers of our Church. As Paul said, "Let each be convinced in his own mind." There is no need for a lack of uniformity on this issue to impede unity in Christ.

God did not stop speaking in 1915. The Holy Spirit is not the sole province of Adventists. I have learned a great deal about the Bible from non-Adventists that is not addressed in the writings of Ellen White. I have learned a great deal about God from non-Adventist sources. As a result, I know God better, I trust Him more, I love Him more and I like Him more. Which is, after all, the main point of the whole idea.

Ellen White wrote that "The truth has nothing to fear from close investigation." How can anyone investigate, compare and reach their own decisions if they read only Adventist materials?  I want to know what those who disagree with us think! Let us see if their arguments pass muster. If our doctrines are true, then they can withstand criticism and attack. Indeed, withstanding such efforts will only enhance their credibility. 



Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 11, 2009, 08:06:35 AM

God did not stop speaking in 1915. The Holy Spirit is not the sole province of Adventists. I have learned a great deal about the Bible from non-Adventists that is not addressed in the writings of Ellen White. I have learned a great deal about God from non-Adventist sources. As a result, I know God better, I trust Him more, I love Him more and I like Him more. Which is, after all, the main point of the whole idea.

 Wow!   It is the Holy spirit and only the Holy spirit that leads us into all truth.  If not, we are led of another spirit. I agree that God did not stop speaking in 1915. He still speaks to us today through the writings of EGW if we are willing to listen and appreciate. God is still speaking through the Scriptures even though the cannon was closed long ago. On the other hand I believe it is not wise to think that God is raiising up true prophets for the end within the ranks of Babylon and not sourced of the Holy Spirit.

What specifically have you learned about God from non SDA sources that was not available within the church'es writings and speakers ?

I always wonder and without exception never get an answer to the question of "what is to be learned from non SDA sources that we do not have with a last day prophet, and with thousands of speakers and authors and with many milllions of members. Since this is never answered I can only conclude that waht our people are seeking on the moutside is an wider and easier road.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 11, 2009, 08:37:21 AM
1- If I had a congregation I would not invite a minister from another faith to preach.

2. I have found no subtile error in the books that I have recommended. Error is error it is only subtile to those who might not know the difference.

3. I think that the reading of anything including the Spirit of Prophecy can easily become a substitute for a study of the Word. I personally don't think we do what the Spirit of Prophecy was meant to do when all of our points are made from a quotation from one of her books. We must be careful that we don't root and ground ourselves in the lesser light rather than the greater light. I hope I am wrong, but many have replaced Scripture with the Spirit of Prophesy. She continually quoted from Scripture, why don't we.

I was talking with a lady who had been recently baptized. She was having a problem with the Spirit of Prophesy. In a conversation, a person had said, "The Bible says, and Mrs. White confirmes it....."

I believe that error can be so subtle that even the most dedicated can be leavened by it. Perhaps you are beyond being deceived but I know that I am not when I go to material that is questionable. Deception by its very nature is just that. It is subtle. You may not have found error but that does not mean that it does not exist. There have been books recommended on this forum by authors that have spoken directly against our church and the SOP.

I think we risk pitting the Testimony of Jesus against the Testimony of Jesus when we do not wish points to be proven from the gift manifested after the Bible was canonized. I believe we do continually quote Scripture. It is not even easy to quote much from the writings of EGW without quoting Scripture as it runs all through her writings. I think it is a very sad day when it is looked down upon to quote the SOP from our pulpits but perfectly ok to quote many other sources, some of which is filled with error and none of which is the Testimony of Jesus / Spirit  of Prophecy.   I do not think that our people are typically, too rooted and grounded in the SOP. Probably not one in 1000 have even read all of Mrs. White's writings and probably not one in 20  have even read all of the Conflict of the Ages. I don't think we should use abuses or statements where a wrong word was used as though this is the norm. The Bible says it and the SOP amplifies it. There is a considerable amount in the SOP that is not specifically stated in Scripture especially relative to the health message. Some wish to simple stay with the Bible because it is not so specific and pointed. One can even smoke tobacco on occasion and think the Bible does not condemn it. The SOP takes  a fair amount of the optional digressions out of the picture. For every missue of the SOP among the conservative ranks there is probably 100 neglects and abuses among the other classes in the church. My question then is "as conservatives why are we taking the minority and sounding as though it is the majority issue? unless, we have, in some respects, moved into the majority ourselves.

Mr. Paulsen has recently said "that the conservatives will not let the church heal."  This was stated as though those who have sought to maintain the standards are the party that has caused the wounds. Meanwhile he is taking on some very liberal views. Women's ordination has threatened to divide the church. Who  brought this in and who has been pushing against and in some ways bypassing the decisions of the world church?
0
I guess my point is that it is becoming politically correct, sometimes subtly and sometimes not, to divert from our message and messages and looking for help from babylon. Unless we are no longer the remnant church militant we look the wrong direction and adopt fallen standards by seeking advice from babylon. While we may think that this is growing and maturing the question is...what will we become ? I believe that the bottom line is that we that we tend to accept quotes from that which does not cut across the life. Nothing so cleanly cuts across the life as the Testimony of Jesus  as given to the remnant church for the last days. No doubt this is why so often we get tired of hearing or reading the SOP but move to other authors who are less specific in areas that trouble us.

I am happy to hear that you would not invite a minister of another faith to preach in our churches. I would also not invite a person of another faith who is not a pastor to minister to our people from the pulpit. Pastor or no pastor, when one stands behind the pulpit they are the acting pastor and fulfil the same role producing more or less the same fruit.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 11, 2009, 08:54:10 AM
What do you think about having a "guest speaker" of a different denomination, (Baptist) yet it is our pastor who is standing in the pulpit?  Kind of a riddle, yes?  Well, that is what we are suffering through for 9 Sabbaths...(I think there are 5 more to go.) Our pastor is presenting a series of sermons from different speakers, (mainly Rick Warren,) all from the Saddleback church.  He was even so bold with it, as to give handouts with Warren's name at the top...this was the second sermon of the series.  My mind went into "prejudiced overdrive" and I did not hear a word of that sermon, because I was sitting there praying, asking God to tell me what to say when I went out.  I knew there was no one else who would say anything, and I felt impressed that someone just must!

When I shook hands with him, I said, "Pastor, I guess there were some good thoughts in your message, but I am disappointed that you took them from Rick Warren."  He said, rather flippiantly, "Well, one takes things where we find them."  But, I said, "No, Pastor, we don't.  Not if we are preaching Truth.  You went to an apostate Protestant church, to broken cisterns, looking for Living Water, and you cannot find it there."  Later, he came to me and asked if I had a minute, so we talked.  He tried to explain that no one seemed to be listening to what he had been presenting, so he thought he would try this series from Saddleback.  He assured me that he was carefully filtering it, and if I heard anything from the pulpit that was unbiblical, to tell him.  Of course, I know he is not going off on some heretical track from the pulpit...I told him, "You are missing the point.  It is not so much what you are preaching, as what you are not preaching...because the sermons you are bringing could be preached from any pulpit in the city.  Also, it is the source you are going to, we have the true message, yet you are going to apostate sources to get food for the people."  Of course, these sermons are really not much different than what we have ever heard from him; it has been so long since we have heard anything  that could be labeled a Seventh-day-Adventist message I cannot remember.  In talking with some other ladies in the church, I find that they feel the same.

What is so sad, I am sure our pastor is just one of many of the SDA pastors who refuse to preach the Three Angels' Message.  We want so much to "be like the world," yet to say we are God's people.  "And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach."  Is that not what so many of the SDA churches are doing today? And, the pastors are leading out in it, encouraged by most of the conferences.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 11, 2009, 09:05:37 AM
Good for you, Dora.

Even if your pastor, filters the information correctly, which is highly doubtful, he is leading some of the people to Warren's books. Is the pastor going to be in the heads of the people that read the books on their own time, filtering their information for them. The very premise of what he is doing shows he has given up on the message as we know it. It is not his duty to simply find semons the people will listen to. Some of the sermons we are called to give...thge people do not generally wish to listen to. I think of Noah. What if Noah would have preached a different sermon?

It is understandable that our pastors struggle with stiff necked people but we cannot exchange the message to make the people happy. Thank you for kindly taking this to task. Somebody has to.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 11, 2009, 09:26:29 AM
Thank you, CP, for your encouragement and for the thought re the pastor leading the people to read Warren's books, also the question, "Is he going to filter them in the minds of the people as they read?"  He knows we are going to talk again, so that is a question I can ask him.  Three weeks ago, he made the statement, "I know that some do not especially like the material I am bringing, but I am going to finish it anyway."  It was an hour long "lecture" and we had an appointment later with our granddaughter's dad, to take her to him, or I would have talked with him again.  He asked me if I wanted to talk, but I told him it was too late.  Besides, I really wanted to pray about it, and know that what I am saying is not me, but the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 11, 2009, 10:54:23 AM
Dora,
We were just thinking along the same lines if one quotes from outside sources in a presentation wouldn't that be the same as a quest speaker?  Your post answered that question for me.
I mentioned CS Lewis once on the forum and I was attacked by the members at that time.  Since then I have noticed how often his work is quoted in our quarterlies and on our programs by our denomination.  Hmmmmmmm....  as Dalfie would say...

Cp,
I don't think there were any people running up the plank to the ark after the animals do you? 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 11, 2009, 11:55:57 AM
Wow!   It is the Holy spirit and only the Holy spirit that leads us into all truth.  If not, we are led of another spirit. I agree that God did not stop speaking in 1915. He still speaks to us today through the writings of EGW if we are willing to listen and appreciate. God is still speaking through the Scriptures even though the cannon was closed long ago. On the other hand I believe it is not wise to think that God is raiising up true prophets for the end within the ranks of Babylon and not sourced of the Holy Spirit.

My point was that God speaks to non-Adventists. Your assumption that God has nothing to say to or through non-Adventists is just and only that -- your assumption. Ellen White did not share it as she read non-Adventist authors. The claim that the Holy Spirit is not with people outside of our communion, if that is what you meant, is a truly extraordinary one that I cannot agree with.

What specifically have you learned about God from non SDA sources that was not available within the church'es writings and speakers?
A great deal, far too much to list here. And it's not always a matter of "I learned this fact here and I learned that fact there." God used a variety of writers to speak my heart, to impress upon me various truths about him. If you must have an example, the writings of Ray Van Der Laan (spelling?) have helped me to understand the Scriptures in the context of their time much more clearly. There are others, Lewis, Yancey, Bell, to name a few. They have helped me see God more clearly. I shall always be grateful to them.

Even as I answer your question, I have to wonder what good even a longer recitation will do. You believe that risk of contamination is too great to read non-Adventist authors. Your mind is clearly made up and that is fine, for you but, respectfully, you ought not try to impose your convictions on others.


I always wonder and without exception never get an answer to the question of "what is to be learned from non SDA sources that we do not have with a last day prophet, and with thousands of speakers and authors and with many milllions of members. Since this is never answered I can only conclude that waht our people are seeking on the moutside is an wider and easier road.

You are, of course, free to conclude what you wish. I could just as easily assume and conclude things about those who hold your position that would be less than kind. What do you say that we both try to believe the best about one another and not prescribe motives to people that we've never even met?  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 11, 2009, 12:14:02 PM
Slingshot;
 I'm not going to read those authors  to determine what you got from them that you could not as clearly get from the SOP.

You did not state a single thing that you learned from them.

It is not so much, or only.... contamination... but I would rather go a more direct line to truth. I believe the prophet God raise up is far more powerful, clear, lacking of error than folks that still believe in Sunday sacredness and a whole host of error.

I did not say that God never speaks through non SDAs but I do not believe he has raised up people in Babylon to teach and lead the remnant people especially in the closing events of this earth's history.. I believe he is primarily using non SDAs who are seeking him to lead those in their churches to more truth but we need not truth and error intermingled. I responded to your statement to the effect that SDAs consider that the holy spirit is always at work. I hold to the fact that the Holy spirit is without exception always and absolutely He who leads into all truth.

Please do not divert into issues of being kind. This is always a last resort to persuade acceptance of a liberal idea. I am not enforcing abstaining from non SDA speakers and their books these days. I am simply persisting in defending what is all truth (SOP) over those speakers and writers that believe and sometimes, if not always, express error. I don't think it is restricting religious freedom to persuade or attempt to persuade our people not to invite non SDA speakers and purchase non SDA books on theology and such. Neither is it old fashioned or narrow to point people to and emphasize heavily, one of the distinguishing aspects of the remnant church....the Spirit of Prophecy. While I/we do not emphasize the SOP over the Bible I/we do emphasize the SOP over non SDA author's and speaks who have not come yet to the light and some of who work against it.

Incidentally,  according to the posting I have seen, pastor does not agree with having non SDA speakers behind our puplits and in our workers meetings. Is he imposing his convictions on others?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 11, 2009, 12:17:39 PM
Having said all of this, we still must be good searchers and researchers of the truth even from our own churches and in house speakers.... 

Do other faiths ask for guest speakers from the SDA denomination?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 11, 2009, 12:26:29 PM
Having said all of this, we still must be good searchers and researchers of the truth even from our own churches and in house speakers.... 

Do other faiths ask for guest speakers from the SDA denomination?

Absolutely ! 

Only on occasion do other churches invite our speakers. Even so, and even if they had open doors for us to preach every week, there should be no  fair trade agreement with babylon. Too many times Israel made leagues with the outside only to become like them. While the motivation might have sometimes been good the result rarely was.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 11, 2009, 12:41:51 PM
Slingshot;
 I'm not going to read those authors to try to determine what you got from them that you could not as clearly get from the SOP.

You did not state a single thing that you learned from them.

It is not so much, or only.... contamination... but I would rather go a more direct line to truth. I believe the prophet God raise up is far more powerful, clear, lacking of error than folks that still believe in Sunday sacredness and a whole host of error.

I did not say that God never speaks through non SDAs but I do not believe he has raised up people in Babylon to teach and lead the remnant people especially in the closing events of this earth's history.. I believe he is primarily using non SDAs who are seeking him to lead those in their churches to more truth but we need not truth and error intermingled. I responded to your statement to the effect that SDAs consider that the holy spirit is always at work. I hold to the fact that the Holy spirit is without exception always and absolutely He would leads into all truth.

Please do not divert into issues of being kind. This is always a last resort to persuade acceptance of a liberal idea. I am not enforcing abstaining from non SDA speakers and their books these days. I am simply persisting in defending what is all truth (SOP) over those speakers and writers that believe and sometimes, if not always, express error. I don't think it is restricting religious freedom to persuade or attempt to perusade our people not to invite non SDA speakers and purchase non SDA books on theology and such. Neither is it old fashioned or narrow to point people to and emphasize heavily, one of the distinguishing aspects of the remnant church....the Spirit of Prophecy. While I/we do not emphasize the SOP over the Bible I/we do emphasize the SOP over non SDA author's and speaks who have not come yet to the light and some of who work against it.

Incidentally,  according to the posting I have seen, pastor does not agree with having non SDA speakers behind our puplits and in our workers meetings. Is he imposing his convictions on others?


Thank you for your comments. I will give you the last word.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 11, 2009, 05:46:36 PM
Thank you for your comments. I will give you the last word.

Here goes.

I should have used spell check. It is amazing when the mind and fingers are moving how many typos occur without being realized.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Richard OFfill on February 11, 2009, 06:40:41 PM
I just took care of that for you!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 12, 2009, 08:47:32 AM
Cp, you asked what one could find in other writings that are not given in the SOP.  Indeed we can find pretty much everything in the SOP, but there has to be a little room for other Christian writers who are not prophets yet have something to say that's worth hearing.  One of my favorite non-SDA authors is Maurice Roberts, a minister of the Free Church of Scotland.  His writings are deep, very reverent, serious, very Protestant.  God uses different writers and speakers to present thoughts from above by packaging them in the human elements of personality, experience and culture.   No single author or speaker is able to capture and contain the whole of truth as an entity in their writings or sermons.  This is why there are many mouthpieces and pens and why a little variety is good.  They each reveal different facets and glimpses of truth.  Maurice Roberts speaks my language.  Maybe it's that he's British.  This committed man of God glorifies the Almighty God, reminds us to approach God with awe.  With only traces of piety left in Christianity today, even in our own church, I get a good dose of it in five minutes with Rev Roberts.  I'd love to hear him preach.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 12, 2009, 04:44:35 PM
Cp, you asked what one could find in other writings that are not given in the SOP.  Indeed we can find pretty much everything in the SOP, but there has to be a little room for other Christian writers who are not prophets yet have something to say that's worth hearing.  One of my favorite non-SDA authors is Maurice Roberts, a minister of the Free Church of Scotland.  His writings are deep, very reverent, serious, very Protestant.  God uses different writers and speakers to present thoughts from above by packaging them in the human elements of personality, experience and culture.   No single author or speaker is able to capture and contain the whole of truth as an entity in their writings or sermons.  This is why there are many mouthpieces and pens and why a little variety is good.  They each reveal different facets and glimpses of truth.  Maurice Roberts speaks my language.  Maybe it's that he's British.  This committed man of God glorifies the Almighty God, reminds us to approach God with awe.  With only traces of piety left in Christianity today, even in our own church, I get a good dose of it in five minutes with Rev Roberts.  I'd love to hear him preach.

Lily,

I agree with you on Maurice Roberts. A Google search will reveal a lot of excellent material and online sermons such as here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Rev%5EMaurice%5ERoberts

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 12, 2009, 07:28:24 PM
I went to that site and searched for a minute.  One of the sermons state there are no prophets today, that God speaks to us only through the bible by the Holy Spirit, but according to scripture the gifts of the Holy Spirit continues, until we ALL come to the unity of the faith.  Ephesians 4  We ALL haven't come to the unity of the faith yet, so all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are valid still today.

Another sermon says they keep sunday instead of Sabbath in honor the resurrection. Although he admits the sabbath was made at creation and was written on the tables of stone, he considers it Jewish.

I probably could find a litany of errors but I don't have time, nor the inclination.

Tell me again why I should listen to this guy?  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 12, 2009, 07:47:12 PM
Oh yes, and he has 53 minutes of us and our errors.  How nice!

 :?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 12, 2009, 10:33:01 PM
I went to that site and searched for a minute.  One of the sermons state there are no prophets today, that God speaks to us only through the bible by the Holy Spirit, but according to scripture the gifts of the Holy Spirit continues, until we ALL come to the unity of the faith.  Ephesians 4  We ALL haven't come to the unity of the faith yet, so all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are valid still today.

Another sermon says they keep sunday instead of Sabbath in honor the resurrection. Although he admits the sabbath was made at creation and was written on the tables of stone, he considers it Jewish.

I probably could find a litany of errors but I don't have time, nor the inclination.

Tell me again why I should listen to this guy?  :-)
Kayak, if our goal is to confine our input to only material written by Seventh-day Adventists and refuse to hear or read anything from a person who is not in agreement with all of our doctrines, then, as far as I know, there are only 17 songs in our Hymnal that qualify out of the 695. And those 678 "non Seventh-day Adventist" hymns and gospel songs are full of solid Christian doctrine. 16 of the songs written by Adventists were written by Ellen White's nephew F.E. Belden who later left the church. So the only one we could sing would be "We Have This Hope" written by Wayne Hooper and we would need to outlaw our hymnal because we only sing songs written by Sabbath keeping Seventh-day Adventists. That apparently is the kind of policy  the Jehova's Witnesses have. 
No more Issac Watts, no more Fanny Crosby, no more christmas carols, no more hymnal.

I know you wouldn't advocate that. And it was not necessary for you to listen to "that guy." and it was not suggested that you read and accept what was on the website. One of the differences between the Seventh-day Adventist church and the religious cults like the Catholics and the Jehova's Witnesses is that we believe in and practice freedom of conscience.

Ellen White had hundreds of books in her library most of which were written by other Christians. She kept large scrapbooks that she used to collect stories, poems, articles and other material from other Christian publications to use in the various periodicals that were being produced by our publishing houses during her lifetime. She was especially on the lookout for good material suitable for children. She ended up with several large and heavy scrapbooks filled with material from non Adventist sources that she relied on for use in our publications. She was not afraid of other Christian writers.

Am I saying that we should promote Yancy, Rick Warren, Tony Campolo and all the rest and sell their books in our ABCs? Of course not. That is not what I am trying to say. I am talking about making rules for other people about what they should or should not read and ridiculing and disparaging them if they don't measure up to our specifications.
It is a risk that one takes in posting on the internet  that someone may stretch the words and put a spin on them that was not meant by the person posting and the discussion will be taken off in a direction as though the person has made some ridiculous statement that they did not make or mean and has taken a position that they do not really take.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 13, 2009, 02:52:05 AM
Thank you Larry.

Great points you make about the hymnal and about Ellen White's diversity. If she could say that John Bunyan breathed the very air of heaven even though it is clear that she did not agree with him on some doctrinal points, then we must extend Christian charity today with some of those whom we disagree.

We must still be discerning as you suggest. There is a big difference in reading Rick Warren, and others from the "popular evangelical culture" today vs. those classic writers and people like MacArthur who stand up against the pop culture. Why else would Tom Mostert get permission to use an entire chapter from MacArthur's book for his own book if there was not value to be had?

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 13, 2009, 03:05:50 AM
I went to that site and searched for a minute.  One of the sermons state there are no prophets today, that God speaks to us only through the bible by the Holy Spirit, but according to scripture the gifts of the Holy Spirit continues, until we ALL come to the unity of the faith.  Ephesians 4  We ALL haven't come to the unity of the faith yet, so all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are valid still today.

Another sermon says they keep sunday instead of Sabbath in honor the resurrection. Although he admits the sabbath was made at creation and was written on the tables of stone, he considers it Jewish.

I probably could find a litany of errors but I don't have time, nor the inclination.

Tell me again why I should listen to this guy?  :-)
Oh yes, and he has 53 minutes of us and our errors.  How nice!

 :?

Kayyak,

Larry really said it the best, and I cannot really improve on his remarks.

However, I must say that your sarcastic and smug attitude and tone is very troubling. Please show me the sermon that Maurice Roberts spends 53 minutes attacking Adventists. I went through all the sermons listed, and couldn't find it. Are you always looking for the negative and trying to find something to attack when people post good material?

I went to this sermon here that Roberts preached on the vision of Isaiah 6 which talks about the Holiness of God:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=81807166100

This is really stirring. I would think that most of the sermons he preached, most of those who post on this forum would agree with.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: kayyak on February 13, 2009, 05:47:51 AM
Do a search like I did.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ruth on February 13, 2009, 06:41:11 AM
Do a search like I did.

I gather from what I've read that you are very passionate about this particular topic, and I know it is probably not your intention to sound the way I am reading it.

I'm just a humble reader of this thread, so please don't be offended when I say that your responses are tending towards the abrupt.  Alas... it may be a cultural thing, but since there are other passers-by whose decisions may be affected by our interactions, I just thought you may want to know how it comes across from another perspective.

Just saying....
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 13, 2009, 08:09:35 AM
Kayak, if our goal is to confine our input to only material written by Seventh-day Adventists and refuse to hear or read anything from a person who is not in agreement with all of our doctrines, then, as far as I know, there are only 17 songs in our Hymnal that qualify out of the 695. And those 678 "non Seventh-day Adventist" hymns and gospel songs are full of solid Christian doctrine. 16 of the songs written by Adventists were written by Ellen White's nephew F.E. Belden who later left the church. So the only one we could sing would be "We Have This Hope" written by Wayne Hooper and we would need to outlaw our hymnal because we only sing songs written by Sabbath keeping Seventh-day Adventists. That apparently is the kind of policy  the Jehova's Witnesses have. 
No more Issac Watts, no more Fanny Crosby, no more christmas carols, no more hymnal.

Larry, I don't think we can necessarily compare a short song where we do not need to divide truth from error with a book which contains error either flagrant or subtle. Having said that, there are some Catholic songs that should not have ever been put in our hymnal referring to "the bowing to the rising sun" and a whole host of other more subtle diversions.  There are also some Christmas carols that should not come from the mouth's of God's people

........ And it was not necessary for you to listen to "that guy." and it was not suggested that you read and accept what was on the website. One of the differences between the Seventh-day Adventist church and the religious cults like the Catholics and the Jehova's Witnesses is that we believe in and practice freedom of conscience.

Indeed it was as Soli built up this man and posted a link to the sight. That is advocating and suggesting. I have never heard Soli suggesting Ministry of Healing or Counsels on Health. There have been authors with their links posted on this forum that speak directly against the SOP. That should not be but in the name of love, kindness, and higher learning it continues. We also practice freedom of conscience in terms of paying tithe but I do not hear our leadership saying "do as you see fit." Stressing that we avoid error and authors that speak against present truth is not violating another's conscience.

Ellen White had hundreds of books in her library most of which were written by other Christians. She kept large scrapbooks that she used to collect stories, poems, articles and other material from other Christian publications to use in the various periodicals that were being produced by our publishing houses during her lifetime. She was especially on the lookout for good material suitable for children. She ended up with several large and heavy scrapbooks filled with material from non Adventist sources that she relied on for use in our publications. She was not afraid of other Christian writers.

What willl we  say to those that have been directed to authors who plant seeds of doubt against the Sabbath and the SOP and who are turned from the truth to eternal loss ? Will we say, "I just wanted you to listen to someone who speaks our language." I don't think that will take. You may not be doing this Larry, but by taking a broad stoke at this and allowing others to point people to these sights and authors you are part of the process.

When EGW began to write there was virtually no SDA books to read. Even later in her experience she had not written on many topics, neither had any SDA author. Today we have an entire library of SOP books. We need not read books by authors who plant seeds of doubt about truly Inspired authors, EGW, her gift, our church, and the Sabbath. The church was in its infancy when EGW recommended some of these books. Once again, Lily said she was very blessed by  non SDA author but failed to make a single example but rather pointing people to the author. If other people are speaking our language better than EGW I am wondering what language we are speaking. There were many different languages at the tower of babel. Mrs. White referred to a time at the end when "books of a new order" would come into the church. I wonder what she meant by that ?

   I think the very fact that we are having this discussion in the closing moments of earth's history is evidence of the effects of these non SDA books ,sermons, and medical information.
I have said all that I will say on this other than.... I encourage our people to read all that the prophet has said rather than going to a mixture of truth and error, and at the very most... half the message.



 


Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 13, 2009, 09:31:41 AM
Quoting CP

"When EGW began to write there was virtually no SDA books to read. Even later in her experience she had not written on many topics, neither had any SDA author. Today we have an entire library of SOP books. We need not read books by authors who plant seeds of doubt about truly Inspired authors, EGW, her gift, our church, and the Sabbath. The church was in its infancy when EGW recommended some of these books. Once again, Lily said she was very blessed by  non SDA author but failed to make a single example but rather pointing people to the author. If other people are speaking our language better than EGW I am wondering what language we are speaking. There were many different languages at the tower of babel. Mrs. White referred to a time at the end when "books of a new order" would come into the church. I wonder what she meant by that ?"

CP, this quote reads as though you are giving Sister White a free pass or better yet, "get-out-of-jail-free" card? Why do you say it was genuinely OK for her to consult non-SDA writers, just because there were none? If we had none today would it be OK? I find this argument inconsistent.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 13, 2009, 09:35:25 AM
I was raised SDA, but very loosely....As an adult I was attending a Baptist church.  I had a discussion with my father about it one day and he quoted to me Isaiah 8:20  it doesn't not say there is a little light take what you can....so, why would we ask someone to speak in our pulpit if they have no light?

I don't know about having someone from another denomination speak at a meeting in our churches like on finances etc but I do not believe we should have them in our pulpit on Sabbath morning....

It is amazing to me because this same college that invited this non SDA preach, it is common knowledge that they will not let Doug Batchelor preach in their church....                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         

Can anyone shed any light as to what college is being talked about here? If it is the college I am thinking of (SAU)... it is NOT common knowledge that they will not allow DB to preach there.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 13, 2009, 09:38:02 AM
After I went to the churches web site to see if indeed this man did speak there, yes it is true that he did.  They also said he was the speaker at the pastor's meeting....I believe of the Southern Union.  So, I guess our local conference probably does not have a problem with him...

The things on this man's web site goes against what we believe....so, regardless of whether he said anything about Ellen White, he does NOT need to be speaking in our churches nor to our pastors....

Can someone also shed light on who this speaker was, where did he speak, what were the inaccurate issues spoken from the pulpit, and what is a web address to this speaker's information? So much of the above is hear-say, not fact. Why the silence?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 13, 2009, 11:10:32 AM
Cp, I am not recommending any particular non-SDA author.  You asked for an example.  I gave one.   I read a lot, including the SOP.  A conservative, British male Protestant writer will have a different language to Sr White but is not a substitute for Sr White.  Sr White is staple food, other authors are occasional extras.  In my library there are books galore on end-time events and theological issues, but not so many that talk about the qualities of God.  I enjoy Ty Gibson as an author and the light he sheds on love and grace.  In stark contrast, someone like Maurice Roberts, who is very conservative and very British, in his rich, poignant style, in a sentence or two give much to chew on.  Maurice Roberts I read only on occasion, in tidbits.   I do not go to a non-SDA author to learn about prophecy or end-time events.  I could share a line or two that spoke to me, but not sure there is any value in so doing.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 13, 2009, 11:32:12 AM
We need to acknowledge truth as being truth where we find it.  It is nice to have truth presented as a pure nugget, but sometimes it is going to be like a little piece of gold embedded in quartz - do we toss it completely?  Yes, we are to reject error, but let's not reject those with less truth who are nonethless sincere children of God, as having nothing to offer or to teach. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 13, 2009, 01:07:58 PM
Colporteur, I believe that God was leading the founders of our church and He definately did not lead them  to appoint a Cardinal Ratzinger to protect the flock and make sure members read only materials by certain approved authors. If God thought the flock needed that kind of protection He would have let it be known through His prophet.

If you have read any posts on this thread that suggest that Adventists should be indiscriminate in what they feed their mind on, and should read any and everything found in a Christian book store by any and every preacher or author, I'm afraid you are not understanding what you have read. 


God is in control and will see His church through. He promises and guarantees it.
I pray that we can disagree and still be friends.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 13, 2009, 01:15:46 PM
Cp, I am not recommending any particular non-SDA author.  You asked for an example.  I gave one.   I read a lot, including the SOP.  A conservative, British male Protestant writer will have a different language to Sr White but is not a substitute for Sr White. 

Lily,
 I did not ask for an author but for an example of some specific truth you learned that is not in the SOP. You pointed me to an author's entire writings.

So far I have had zero replies in terms of specific truth in a non SDA theological writing that we do not have in the SOP ...yet... the comments keep coming about clarity and blessings so many other writings supposedly give, some of which strike directly at our message and church.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 13, 2009, 01:37:34 PM
Colporteur, I believe that God was leading the founders of our church and He definately did not lead them  to appoint a Cardinal Ratzinger to protect the flock and make sure members read only materials by certain approved authors. If God thought the flock needed that kind of protection He would have let it be known through His prophet.

If you have read any posts on this thread that suggest that Adventists should be indiscriminate in what they feed their mind on, and should read any and everything found in a Christian book store by any and every preacher or author, I'm afraid you are not understanding what you have read. 


God is in control and will see His church through. He promises and guarantees it.
I pray that we can disagree and still be friends.


As far as I'm concerned. Larry we can still be friends but I don't think what amounts to name calling strengthens your position. EGW did talk about books of a new order coming in and she spoke very derogatorily about them. I understand your position about discrimination but strangely you do not edit posts from people who "appear SDA" but are not, that point our people to authors who strike directly at the SOP and our message. I guess I could be more supportive if someone could just one time point me to some contemporary non SDA spiritual literature that supplies  what the SOP is lacking in terms of information and clarity. In the infancy of the SDA church there was a great lacking in understanding on many things. In the 70 years that God saw fit to bless the church through the Testimony of Jesus much was recorded and there was not doctrinal error. Now we think it higher learning to sort truth from error. Mr. Aurthur clearly writes error of no small degree. I think with all we see coming into the church indeed we do need a few more people willing to speak and if possible protect our people from a flood of non SDA authors and speakers. I don't think you would be willing to charge the pastor as being a Ratzinger because he started this thread and said he is not in favor of inviting non SDA speakers to preach and teach our people. Of course this topic got changed to one about books and authors as a rationale for Stan to give a position counter to that of the pastor.

Anyway, carry on, as I am getting a little weary with this topic that incidently is off topic. We've been through this one before as well but we seemed to slid back to it again. I considered the thread topic a refreshing topic change and a concern in the church that we have not talked about much on the forum. :-)
   
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 13, 2009, 02:53:37 PM
As far as I'm concerned. Larry we can still be friends but I don't think what amounts to name calling strengthens your position. EGW did talk about books of a new order coming in and she spoke very derogatorily about them. I understand your position about discrimination but strangely you do not edit posts from people who "appear SDA" but are not, that point our people to authors who strike directly at the SOP and our message. I guess I could be more supportive if someone could just one time point me to some contemporary non SDA spiritual literature that supplies  what the SOP is lacking in terms of information and clarity. In the infancy of the SDA church there was a great lacking in understanding on many things. In the 70 years that God saw fit to bless the church through the Testimony of Jesus much was recorded and there was not doctrinal error. Now we think it higher learning to sort truth from error. Mr. Aurthur clearly writes error of no small degree. I think with all we see coming into the church indeed we do need a few more people willing to speak and if possible protect our people from a flood of non SDA authors and speakers. I don't think you would be willing to charge the pastor as being a Ratzinger because he started this thread and said he is not in favor of inviting non SDA speakers to preach and teach our people. Of course this topic got changed to one about books and authors as a rationale for Stan to give a position counter to that of the pastor.

Anyway, carry on, as I am getting a little weary with this topic that incidently is off topic. We've been through this one before as well but we seemed to slid back to it again. I considered the thread topic a refreshing topic change and a concern in the church that we have not talked about much on the forum. :-)
   
Colporteur, sorry for the Ratzinger statement. Don't you see that when you continue to demand, like a Grand Inquisitor that someone supply evidence that you want? You are doing exactly what you have accused others of doing. Trying to send them chasing rabbits.  You sound like Senator Joseph McArthy  in his Senate hearings demanding "Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?" That kind of attitude is antagonistic and does not promote respectful, give and take dialog. I would urge you to take a look at how you relate to others who you disagree with.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 13, 2009, 03:19:29 PM
Colporteur wrote:

"Of course this topic got changed to one about books and authors as a rationale for Stan to give a position counter to that of the pastor."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CP
Again you are misrepresnting my position. In no way do I oppose the pastor's position. I have no problem with any denomination protecting the purity of the pulpit and primary teaching positions.

If you were reading, I appreciate the pastor's suggestion to also read non-SDA material such as AW Tozer. Did you miss that post earlier on here?

Only a couple of people on here have advocated a cult-like mindset in wanting not to allow any recommendations for other good Christian material.

As Larry said earlier, it is typical of cults like JW, LDS, and RCC to carefully control what their members read.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 13, 2009, 04:48:36 PM
Colporteur, sorry for the Ratzinger statement. Don't you see that when you continue to demand, like a Grand Inquisitor that someone supply evidence that you want? You are doing exactly what you have accused others of doing. Trying to send them chasing rabbits.  You sound like Senator Joseph McArthy  in his Senate hearings demanding "Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?" That kind of attitude is antagonistic and does not promote respectful, give and take dialog. I would urge you to take a look at how you relate to others who you disagree with.

Larry, none need answer, but all I have asked for is something profound that you have read from non SDA literature that is either not found within our church or the SOP or that is more clear from a non SDA source.. I don't think this is sending someone chasing rabbits to ask them to simply give examples. Sending me to the author is a kin to someone sending you to Chuck Swindoll because they like something he said, rather than stating what it is that is so impressive. If I were to continually advocate, for instance, Charles Stanley's book  _______, wouldn't it be reasonable for someone to want to know what it is specifically that is so impressive ? I know it must frustrating to attempt to support something and to be asked for something one cannot provide. None need answer any question I have as I am just dust...but I don't think to be so vague and general is a strong arguement in favor of these books.

I will reflect on what you have said and your concerns. I also ask that you consider how much your personal position on this topic affects your concern about my persistance. If someone was taking a compromised stance on contemporary music would my persistance be the concern with you that it has been on this topic ? I have been very civil  but strait forward and to my knowledge have not called anyone any names. I would also respectfully like to ask why there has been no attempt to steer this thread back to the original topic and why there has been a diversion off to the topic of non SDA books and authors of which has carried most of the thread space ?

It is very clear to me that diverting to non SDA books was an attempt to ratilonalize non SDA speakers.. Go back to, I believe post #57 and may see what I am speaking of. When our position on a topic is failing we are tempted to resort to criticising one's persistance or methods rather than just staying with the topic.  It was clear that most who are in favor of some non SDA books feel the same about some non SDA speakers in our chuches, something the pastor clearly is not in favor of.  If I am so far off then no one would even feel a need reply to my posts at all and none need reply if they wish not to. I do think it very odd if not erie that we are pointed to books and authors but a part from mentioning that one author has something important on the papacy (but no sample) there seems to be silence.

I think our brothers and sisters know how shakey a ground they are on with this. Why don't we just return to the thread topic?

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 13, 2009, 06:00:05 PM
Colporteur wrote:

"Of course this topic got changed to one about books and authors as a rationale for Stan to give a position counter to that of the pastor."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CP
Again you are misrepresnting my position. In no way do I oppose the pastor's position. I have no problem with any denomination protecting the purity of the pulpit and primary teaching positions.

If you were reading, I appreciate the pastor's suggestion to also read non-SDA material such as AW Tozer. Did you miss that post earlier on here?

Only a couple of people on here have advocated a cult-like mindset in wanting not to allow any recommendations for other good Christian material.

As Larry said earlier, it is typical of cults like JW, LDS, and RCC to carefully control what their members read.

Stan


Stan;

Then why did you early on divert from the thread topic to non SDA books? Are you in favor of advocating doctinal purity in the books our people read? If so you would not have referred  our people on the forum to contemporary non SDA authors who speak against the SOP, the Sabbath, and who knows what else. Do you accept the Sabbath, the IJ, and what the Bible says about prophecy?  You are eccentially saying some of us have the minds like cults simply because we do not believe it right to advocate material form authors, particularly that which speaks directly against the three angel's messages. We are also against allowing people air time who do not believe some of our core doctrines but give the impression of being SDA and who have spoken against the SOP and the reading of such. (I can provide quotes). People have been banned from this forum for less. Under the concept off allowing for freedom of speech and the freedom to read what others have wrote we will see what is censored and what is allowed.
Stan I read all the posts.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 13, 2009, 06:55:05 PM
I'm so busy reading and studying material from the Bible, SOP, James White and our early pioneer writers, I really don't have time to read anything else.

And when it comes to listening to other denominational speakers, since they don't come from the background of the things I'm studying, I really don't have time to listen to them, nor do I want to have to be so discerning that I have to critique the things they say. 

The message for our time, and the message we are to be learning and passing on is the Three Angles Messages.  And no one else comes close to preaching or teaching that one right.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 13, 2009, 07:01:57 PM
I'm so busy reading and studying material from the Bible, SOP, James White and our early pioneer writers, I really don't have time to read anything else.

And when it comes to listening to other denominational speakers, since they don't come from the background of the things I'm studying, I really don't have time to listen to them, nor do I want to have to be so discerning that I have to critique the things they say. 

The message for our time, and the message we are to be learning and passing on is the Three Angles Messages.  And no one else comes close to preaching or teaching that one right.

Ej;

You said it. There are many voices out there today and the ink is flowing

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." John 10:27
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 13, 2009, 08:05:46 PM
Larry, none need answer, but all I have asked for is something profound that you have read from non SDA literature that is either not found within our church or the SOP or that is more clear from a non SDA source.

Some examples of things that I learned from Ray Van Der Laan:

1) What Jesus actually meant when he said "My yoke is easy and my burden is light." "Yoke" was a term used to refer to a rabbi's teaching regarding Torah.

2) What Jesus actually meant when he spoke of "binding and loosing." These terms also related to rabbinical teaching regarding Torah. "Binding" teachings were those that called for strict observance of Torah. "Loosening" teaches were more lenient. Each rabbi had his own "spin" on how to interpret Torah. Jesus' promise is thus that he will be present when we open our Bibles and try to figure out how to apply them to our lives -- binding and loosening.

3) The fact that when the Israelites shouted "The Lord, He is God!" on Mount Carmel, they were actually shouting out Elijah's name: "El" (god) "i" (is) "jah" (Yah, or Yahweh). The imagery of Elijah so in touch with God that he basically represented His character has helped me understand the Elijah message more fully.

4) That "Gethesmane" was the site of an oil press (if I recall correctly, that is actually what the word means). And that is where the Holy Spirit was withdrawn from Jesus. I learned how the Israelites pressed the oil from the olives with massive rocks. It helped me understand what Jesus went through more fully.

5) That Baal worship as practiced in the days of Ahab (sacrificing children for material gain) and our abortion culture have a lot in common.

Things I learned from Rob Bell:

1) That sex and spirituality are inextricably intertwined.

2) That the sexuality expressed in the Song of Solomon is very spiritual.

Things I learned from C.S. Lewis

1) An excellent philosophical basis for defending the basic tenets of Christianity in a way that secular people could understand.

Things I learned from Ravi Zacharias

1) How to distinguish between the claims of Buddhism, Hinduism, secular humanism, and Christianity. Zacharias does a matchless job of using logic to demonstrate the hollowness and hopelessness of human systems compared to Jesus.

I could go on but that should do for starters.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 13, 2009, 11:41:45 PM
Slingshot,

I would be careful with Rob Bell, as he is part of the Emergent Church movement, and his theology has been drifting down some very questionable directions lately.

CS Lewis has been invaluable as an author. I have a good SDA friend who came from atheism to Christianity by reading CS Lewis "Mere Christianity" as God has used that book in a powerful way to bring people to faith. A miraculous recent example is a medical colleague of mine who was atheist and brought up hindu, and she was brought to Christ by reading this book. CS Lewis has a gift few other writers have of being able to logically deal with the difficult questions of skepticism.

Ravi Zacharias' story is amazing, as he came from an East Indian background also atheistic. His conversion story is miraculous. He is now involved in counter cult ministry and has been a missionary to muslims.  He says that most of the musllims who come to faith in Christ do so as a result of a vision where the truth of Christianity is presented, as many times there are no missionaries to bring them the gospel.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 15, 2009, 08:14:46 AM
Slingshot,

I would be careful with Rob Bell, as he is part of the Emergent Church movement, and his theology has been drifting down some very questionable directions lately.

CS Lewis has been invaluable as an author. I have a good SDA friend who came from atheism to Christianity by reading CS Lewis "Mere Christianity" as God has used that book in a powerful way to bring people to faith. A miraculous recent example is a medical colleague of mine who was atheist and brought up hindu, and she was brought to Christ by reading this book. CS Lewis has a gift few other writers have of being able to logically deal with the difficult questions of skepticism.

Ravi Zacharias' story is amazing, as he came from an East Indian background also atheistic. His conversion story is miraculous. He is now involved in counter cult ministry and has been a missionary to muslims.  He says that most of the musllims who come to faith in Christ do so as a result of a vision where the truth of Christianity is presented, as many times there are no missionaries to bring them the gospel.

Stan

Stan has made my point again here in the beginning of this post.

That a book has been instrumental in leading a non SDA to truth is not a reason to continue to promote that book or author among our people. Before I became SDA or even really knew them I read a book "Rapture in 88." It had more error than truth but it got my attention. Even so, Not only would I not direct an SDA to that book but I would not point a non SDA to the book. A donkey talked to man in the Bible but I would not point people to donkeys.
    God is wise enough to use donkeys and he can and does use authors who either present some error or only half the truth but we are insight as when that would be safe to do. EGW pointed peoplle to a couple of books that were not SDA. I figure if I find another prophet as credible and well established as EGW I might read a book they directed me to. So far I have not found a prophet like that, here on the forum. God does not take people to substancial truth and then point them backward to a mix of truth and error when that truth has already been revealed by the prophet. Relatively incidental material such as Slingshot has mentioned is a poor reason to lead people to.... " Rob Bell, as he is part of the Emergent Church movement, and his theology has been drifting down some very questionable directions lately."
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 15, 2009, 08:41:39 AM
Stan has made my point again here in the beginning of this post.

That a book has been instrumental in leading a non SDA to truth is not a reason to continue to promote that book or author among our people. Before I became SDA or even really knew them I read a book "Rapture in 88." It had more error than truth but it got my attention. Even so, Not only would I not direct an SDA to that book but I would not point a non SDA to the book. A donkey talked to man in the Bible but I would not point people to donkeys.
    God is wise enough to use donkeys and he can and does use authors who either present some error or only half the truth but we are insight as when that would be safe to do. EGW pointed peoplle to a couple of books that were not SDA. I figure if I find another prophet as credible and well established as EGW I might read a book they directed me to. So far I have not found a prophet like that, here on the forum. God does not take people to substancial truth and then point them backward to a mix of truth and error when that truth has already been revealed by the prophet. Relatively incidental material such as Slingshot has mentioned is a poor reason to lead people to.... " Rob Bell, as he is part of the Emergent Church movement, and his theology has been drifting down some very questionable directions lately."

Whether understanding the Scriptures in the context of their times and understanding Christian sexuality are "incidental" is doubtless something that is best left to the conscience of the individual. 

Your critique of Rob Bell, Lewis, etc. would be more meaningful to me if you had actually read their books and could discuss their ideas thoughtfully.

As the SDA church does not possess a "banned book list" we are both happily to free to read, or not to read, as we believe God is directing us.  :-)

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 15, 2009, 09:03:33 AM
When Mrs. White was pointing people to non Adventist books, it's my understanding it was for historical information, not salvational.  In the early years before our denomination was established, the Lord gave light to our prophetess and she used God inspired authors to help lend understanding to a very few topics.  However, as colporteur stated, the truths that make up our doctrine have always been established by the Lord through our prophets.  We have never been given permission by the Lord to adopt anything from Babylon without the guidance of a prophet.

The Bible and SOP is very clear on who has truth, who has the light, and who is to be preaching to who.

Rev. 14:1-5, Rev 7, Rev 18:1-8.  Just these texts alone show unequivocally who has the truth and who is to be preaching to who.

We also have a perfect example in Saul, who became Paul.  After his conversion, after he learned the truth and excepted the light given him, the Lord directed him to go to the church and learn what his next course of action would be.  All truth and light comes from God's people, God's church.  From this source is the world to be fed.  God's people, His church is not to be fed from the world.  There is no support nor any example in the Bible or SOP for this.

Errors such as: The reintroduction of the feast days, new styles of music in the worship service, who's salvation might be sealed sooner than others, the special resurrection, close of probation sooner for some, later for others....

All of these errors as well as many others come from outside the Adventist denomination.  All of these errors tried making their way into our church in Mrs. Whites days.    They have previously been dealt with by our prophet.  If our people would spend their time reading the many pages of SOP instead of uninspired writers, our church would not be facing the inner difficulties it has right now.

If someone feels that they receive more spiritual fulfillment listening to and reading from non Adventist authors, then that person has a misunderstanding of what salvational truth is.  Our salvation comes from God and God works through His church and His prophets.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 15, 2009, 02:56:33 PM
When Mrs. White was pointing people to non Adventist books, it's my understanding it was for historical information, not salvational.  

Your information is incorrect. Ellen White relied upon non-Adventist authors for a variety of purposes. Large portions of books such as Steps to Christ are drawn from non-Adventist authors.

In the early years before our denomination was established, the Lord gave light to our prophetess and she used God inspired authors to help lend understanding to a very few topics.  

So God inspired non-Adventist authors in Ellen White's day but no longer does so? What is the evidence for this conclusion?

However, as colporteur stated, the truths that make up our doctrine have always been established by the Lord through our prophets.  

Actually, our doctrines have been established by studying the Scriptures. Ellen White was very clear that the basis of doctrines is to be the Bible and the Bible only. Do you disagree with her?

We have never been given permission by the Lord to adopt anything from Babylon without the guidance of a prophet.

Where does it say this?

The Bible and SOP is very clear on who has truth, who has the light, and who is to be preaching to who.

Rev. 14:1-5, Rev 7, Rev 18:1-8.  Just these texts alone show unequivocally who has the truth and who is to be preaching to who.

We also have a perfect example in Saul, who became Paul.  After his conversion, after he learned the truth and excepted the light given him, the Lord directed him to go to the church and learn what his next course of action would be.  

Actually, Paul almost immediately came into conflict with the Church's leaders over how to treat gentile believers. God used Paul to correct their course. Incidentally, portions of the New Testament make reference to pagan philosophical ideas. The apostle John's repeated description of Jesus as the "Word" ("logos" in Greek) was a direct reference to the writings of the Greek philosopher Heraclitus, as his First Century readers would have instantly recognized. Should we dispense with the Gospel of John because of this pagan reference?

All truth and light comes from God's people, God's church.  

So, no non-Adventist author has any truth? What an extraordinary statement! The work of men like Richard Wurmbrand with Voice of the Martyrs is not of God? Christians in China who are being tortured for their faith but who have never heard of Adventists don't have any "light" and could teach us nothing? The young Christian girl in Pakistan whose face was marred in an acid attack by Muslim youth but who has forgiven her attackers and continues to witness for Christ could tell us nothing useful? 

From this source is the world to be fed.  God's people, His church is not to be fed from the world.  There is no support nor any example in the Bible or SOP for this.

The authors that I have cited are not "from the world." They are Christians, God's children, just like you and me.

Errors such as: The reintroduction of the feast days, new styles of music in the worship service, who's salvation might be sealed sooner than others, the special resurrection, close of probation sooner for some, later for others....

All of these errors as well as many others come from outside the Adventist denomination. All of these errors tried making their way into our church in Mrs. Whites days.    They have previously been dealt with by our prophet.  If our people would spend their time reading the many pages of SOP instead of uninspired writers, our church would not be facing the inner difficulties it has right now.

If we all real only the same materials it would doubtlessly create more unity. Perhaps we should too should have a list of prohibited books so that we can complete uniformity of belief. However, there appears to be no basis for this as even the Apostolic church was not in complete unity on every point of doctrine. They managed to work to advance the Gospel in spite of their disagreements (as in the case of Paul and Barnabbas).

If someone feels that they receive more spiritual fulfillment listening to and reading from non Adventist authors, then that person has a misunderstanding of what salvational truth is.  

Please explain this and provide some evidence for this proposition.

Our salvation comes from God and God works through His church and His prophets.

I agree that God works through the Adventist church and through the prophets. But if you believe that God works only through the Adventist church, I must respectfully but strongly disagree with you.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 15, 2009, 04:13:51 PM
No one on this forum has taken the position that non adventist religious writers should be promoted to the church members.

The I will venture to say that if we looked at the books that are in the personal libraries of many of our solidly conservative writers and thought leaders, we would find not just a few, but many books and commentaries by writers and scholars that are not Seventh-day Adventists. If we could look at the books that are owned and have been read by Samuel Pipim, Ron du Preez, the late C. Mervyn Maxwell, Doug Batchelor, Brian Neumann, Randy Skeete, David Ascherick, Richard O'Ffill, and any others you can think of, we would see that is true. I could be wrong, but I doubt if there is a single serious student of the Bible among Adventist pastors who would take the position that non Adventist books must never be read and that it is a sin to do so.

Incidently, it was posted that "we have not been given permission" to read non Adventist books. The Seventh-day Adventist church does not now and has never taken upon itself the authority to "give permission" to our members what they may read, or tell them what they may not read.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 15, 2009, 04:43:01 PM
Just browsing through the 3rd Volume of Arthur White's biography of his grandmother Ellen White, I came across a few non Adventist authors that she highly esteemed. She had a large personal library which I suppose is available to view at the Whtite Estate, although I'm not sure of that.
D' Aubigne's History of the Reformation, "The Life of Christ" by Geikie, "The Life of Paul" by Conybeare and Howson, "Words tht Shook the World" (A biography of Martin Luther taken from his own writings) by Charles Adams, "Life and Epistles of the Apostle Paul,"  by Conybeare and Howson, to name only the ones mentioned in chapter 12.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 15, 2009, 07:23:32 PM
Slingshot

Interesting how you split all of my paragraphs apart and made them into single sentences so that you could change the meaning of them.
I doubt I will continue discussing this with you even if you can support your opinions with Biblical doctrine.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 15, 2009, 08:48:52 PM
I believe if our people truly heard the voice of God speaking through the Testimony of Jesus today we would not be much talking about contemporary non SDA authors.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 15, 2009, 09:21:47 PM
Slingshot

Interesting how you split all of my paragraphs apart and made them into single sentences so that you could change the meaning of them.
I doubt I will continue discussing this with you even if you can support your opinions with Biblical doctrine.

EJ:

I apologize for any misunderstanding. I did not intend to change the meaning of the thoughts in your paragraphs. My purpose was to respond to specific points in each paragraph in a clear way.  I routinely do this and this is the first time that anyone has mentioned it as being a problem.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 15, 2009, 11:21:47 PM
I believe if our people truly heard the voice of God speaking through the Testimony of Jesus today we would not be much talking about contemporary non SDA authors.

CP,
Are you saying that Adventists should never read non-SDA authors?  I think I know your answer to this.  But please correct me if I am wrong that this is your belief.

Have you ever read John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress that EGW did suggest reading?  Have you read even one book by CS Lewis? If you never read any other great Christian literature, how can you sit in the seat of the scornful and judge these writings?  Between you, kayyak, and ejClark, I sense a spirit of hostility towards non-SDA writings that are entirely unwarranted.  Excuse me if I even wonder about a conflict of interest in this discussion since you sell nothing but SDA literature for a living.

Larry is absolutely right when he says that virtually all SDA authors have great classic books by non-SDA authors in their libraries.  You cannot deny that Ellen White read many non-SDA authors.

Do you believe Elder Thomas Mostert was wrong in borrowing an entire chapter from John MacArthur's book for his book?

Why is it that non-SDA authors are automatically labelled as "Babylon" by some of the hardliners on here?  By speaking in this way there is such a spirit of arrogance and pride. There are many fine non-SDA authors who have truly NOT bowed the knee to Baal, and the Lord is working among these faithful teachers to bring many people to faith.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 15, 2009, 11:26:02 PM
EJ:

I apologize for any misunderstanding. I did not intend to change the meaning of the thoughts in your paragraphs. My purpose was to respond to specific points in each paragraph in a clear way.  I routinely do this and this is the first time that anyone has mentioned it as being a problem.


Slingshot,
I really appreciated your prior post which honestly analyzed the remarks of ejclark. I thought you were fair, and brought out excellent points, and made good arguments.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 15, 2009, 11:58:43 PM
I believe if our people truly heard the voice of God speaking through the Testimony of Jesus today we would not be much talking about contemporary non SDA authors.
Cp, if I understand your statement correctly, your judgement is that if someone does not believe the same as you do on this issue, it  means that that person does not hear the voice of God speaking through the Testimony of Jesus. I take it that in your judgement that means anyone who fails to agree with you on this issue is not a true follower of Jesus Christ. Am I correct in my interpretation?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on February 16, 2009, 04:49:09 AM
Interesting how this thread has moved from whether or not non-SDA's should be allowed to speak in our pulpits (most of us would agree that they should not), to whether or not we should read non-SDA literature.  It must depend on what type of literature we're talking about.  I confess to having read Pilgrim's Progress several times, as Ellen White recommended.  On issues of creation/evolution I read whatever I can find, since (with the exception of Walter Veith) SDA's are not doing much in this area; indeed, many of us have caved in to pressure, and no longer believe the earth is only 6,000 years old.  Fox's Book of Martyrs would seem to be well worth one's time, as would D'Aubigne's history of the Reformation.  However, I have no use for Max Lucado, Chuck Swindoll, etc., etc.  Many of the modern authors seem to have an agenda that goes beyond the basics of Christian living.  They're out to prove their particular, usually aberrant, doctrines.  I believe few, if any, of them have anything to offer us.  The few kernels of truth contained in their writings are not worth the effort of sorting through all the error, some of it obvious, some not so obvious--especially when we have an infallible source of truth from which to feast upon.

For the most part, when I'm not reading the SOP, I'd rather read Pippim, watch Bohr and Veith, listen to O'Ffill, and some of the other names mentioned in earlier posts.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 16, 2009, 05:47:54 AM
The issue isn't wether it's right or wrong to read non Adventist authors, it's wether or not we are reading these authors for spiritual guidance.
Quote
Thus Jesus gave sanction to the authority of His organized church and placed Saul in connection with His appointed agencies on earth. Christ had now a church as His representative on earth, and to it belonged the work of directing the repentant sinner in the way of life. {AA 122.2}

Many have an idea that they are responsible to Christ alone for their light and experience, independent of His recognized followers on earth. Jesus is the friend of sinners, and His heart is touched with their woe. He has all power, both in heaven and on earth; but He respects the means that He has ordained for the enlightenment and salvation of men; He directs sinners to the church, which He has made a channel of light to the world. {AA 122.3}.......Christ is the fountain; the church is the channel of communication. {AA 122.4}

If God was using these non Adventist writers and speakers to work for Him, the first thing these people would be doing is converting their hearts to the truth, the whole truth.

By ignoring this God established method, we are following the same path that led the church into the Dark Ages.

Again, those who appose this really need to show their Biblical support and not be expressing opinion.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 16, 2009, 07:44:16 AM
The issue isn't wether it's right or wrong to read non Adventist authors, it's wether or not we are reading these authors for spiritual guidance.
If God was using these non Adventist writers and speakers to work for Him, the first thing these people would be doing is converting their hearts to the truth, the whole truth.

I do not see this principle reflected in the quotes that you have cited.

Let us assume that there is some area of truth of which Adventists are ignorant. Does that mean that everything that we are presently doing is not of God?

It seems that if this principle were true that the works of the early Adventists, including Ellen White, would have to be discounted as they had not yet embraced all truth. And this would apply to some later Adventists as well: Uriah Smith and General Conference President Butler resisted the message of righteousness by faith in 1888. Does this mean that everything they  wrote is no longer safe for consumption?

Ellen White shared the platform with Sunday-keeping members of the Women's Christian Tempeance Union to support probition of alcohol. Was she wrong to do so since if these women were truly working for God the first thing they would have done is become Adventists?

Incidentally, I cannot think of an attitude which will better prevent non-Adventists from becoming Adventists than to say that until they do, they have nothing useful to tell us. I doubt that any non-Adventists reading this thread will be encouraged to join our fellowship. 


By ignoring this God established method, we are following the same path that led the church into the Dark Ages.

The Church, as a whole, has never had complete uniformity of belief on every jot and tittle of theology. The apostolic church mentioned in first quote you cited was not uniform in belief: Consider the disagreements between Jewish and Gentile believers, the disagreements between Peter and Paul, and the misunderstandings regarding the "baptisms" of Paul and Apollos. Desipte these misunderstandings and differences, it appears beyond dispute that God blessed the efforts of both sides in the disputes mentioned above, including both those who were correct theologically and those who were not. Paul never took the position that because Peter did not agree with him on every issue that the work Peter did was not of God. Nor did Paul state that the work of Apollos and Barnabbas was not of God because they did not see eye to eye. God seems to have agreed.

These differences did not lead the Church into the Dark Ages. Indeed, God blessed the Church despite the differences. Rather, it was compromise with pagan civil authorities for the sake of temporal power that brought in a time of spiritual darkness.


Again, those who appose this really need to show their Biblical support and not be expressing opinion.

Respectfully, there appears to be little Biblical or historical basis for the position that you have adopted -- in other words, it is your opinion. If you wish to avoid non-Adventist authors, you are free to do so without condemnation from me. But to say that those who do not share your consciencious stand regarding reading are leading the Church into apostasy appears to be unsupported by any compelling evidence.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 16, 2009, 11:44:31 AM
Interesting how this thread has moved from whether or not non-SDA's should be allowed to speak in our pulpits (most of us would agree that they should not), to whether or not we should read non-SDA literature.  It must depend on what type of literature we're talking about.  I confess to having read Pilgrim's Progress several times, as Ellen White recommended.  On issues of creation/evolution I read whatever I can find, since (with the exception of Walter Veith) SDA's are not doing much in this area; indeed, many of us have caved in to pressure, and no longer believe the earth is only 6,000 years old.  Fox's Book of Martyrs would seem to be well worth one's time, as would D'Aubigne's history of the Reformation.  However, I have no use for Max Lucado, Chuck Swindoll, etc., etc.  Many of the modern authors seem to have an agenda that goes beyond the basics of Christian living.  They're out to prove their particular, usually aberrant, doctrines.  I believe few, if any, of them have anything to offer us.  The few kernels of truth contained in their writings are not worth the effort of sorting through all the error, some of it obvious, some not so obvious--especially when we have an infallible source of truth from which to feast upon.

For the most part, when I'm not reading the SOP, I'd rather read Pippim, watch Bohr and Veith, listen to O'Ffill, and some of the other names mentioned in earlier posts.
Raven, I think we are pretty much on the same wave length. I think the agenda of the Lucados, the Swindoll's etc. has a lot to do with selling books. I believe that is less likely to be a motivation for Adventist authors, especially those published by PP and R&H since the author receives an insignificant amount and has to buy their own books if they want to distribute them at their speaking engagements etc.

You bring up a very good point. There are an increasing number of writers in the area of science who are demolishing the logic and "science" of evolution. Some of the best of them are not Adventists and some not necessarily creationists, but are brilliant in challenging the evolutionist scientific establishment's hold on almost the entire field of science.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 16, 2009, 09:10:57 PM
I'm going to try to kill two birds with one stone here so I refer this post to Stan and Larry. :-D

First of all Stan, you make a judgment call when you say that because I sell only SDA literature that this is a conflict of interest. There is a good deal of SDA literature that I would use for kindling and I sell what I sell because it is the best not because it is simply SDA. Incidentally, I am not completely happy with all I sell but it is still the best out there. What I am saying is that it is very unwise to point our people to contemporary non SDA authors that deal with theology and particularly those who speak against the Advent message. I don't know how many times I have said this. There is gross corruption in Babylon. Yes those outside of our church are in Babylon...all of them. God is calling them out of Babylon. Come out of her and join us, Stan. One (but not all) of the distinguishing marks of Babylon is Sunday sacredness. This is the papal mark. And no Stan I will not be tempted by you or others to read these books. I have not rejected the SOP and would guess that not a person on this forum that is recommending these books has even read all the prophet has wrote. The false evangelical gospel permeates the literature out there. It has done untold damage to our people and our church because many have been leavened by it thinking themselves wise to sort truth from error. So far the profound truth I have heard another say they have learned is that sex is spiritual. I'm sorry but I don't think that is profound neither does it need to come from  any author outside of the Bible and SOP. All that we do according to God's will within the marriage covenant is spiritual. All that we do period, within God's will is spiritual because it is obeying God's voice.

Larry, what I meant by my statement is that when we are fed we do not search for other food by those who are either ignorant of or reject our message. It's that simple.
Much has been said about Mrs.White referring to or using this or that from an SDA author. Personally when someone on the forum has the gift of prophecy, has had dreams and visions which have been tested tried and true, has even been commended by many of her former critics, has had a life of ministry such as hers and the close sacrificial walk with God that Mrs. White had then I will consider them to be a parallel to her in terms of having the wisdom, insight, and foresight to direct our people to safe reading outside of our church. If we are going to use her as a model of what we may do then we ought to have walked a similar path and carry a similar authority.  I will hesitate very much to point people in our church to modern non SDA spiritual literature in an age when Satan is pulling out all the stops and is more sharp than when he tempted Christ. God used a book that was a mess to get my attention but I would never venture to guess that I should recommend it to an SDA or non SDA when we have literature that does not divert from the truth. I do not know what this fascination is for contemporary non SDA authors? 

Why is it when the three angel's messages are being poured out that our people are thinking they are hearing God's voice coming from modern day Babylon ? 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 16, 2009, 09:16:18 PM
Raven, I think we are pretty much on the same wave length. I think the agenda of the Lucados, the Swindoll's etc. has a lot to do with selling books. I believe that is less likely to be a motivation for Adventist authors, especially those published by PP and R&H since the author receives an insignificant amount and has to buy their own books if they want to distribute them at their speaking engagements etc.

You bring up a very good point. There are an increasing number of writers in the area of science who are demolishing the logic and "science" of evolution. Some of the best of them are not Adventists and some not necessarily creationists, but are brilliant in challenging the evolutionist scientific establishment's hold on almost the entire field of science.

Yes, Robert Gentry (SDA) for one, Walter Veith (SDA) for another. There are others.

I agree that it is interesting that there is an insistence that the topic stays on promoting contemporary non SDA authors when SDA authors excell in this area as well. i have tried several times to steer the thread back to the original topic but I guess we are promoting books.  :wink: :-D

I don't think as an SDA, Larry, you need convincing against evolution and if Robert Gentry, Walter Veith, Ellen White and the Bible do not convince an SDA I doubt very much that a non SDA author or speaker will convince them either.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 16, 2009, 11:38:18 PM
I'm going to try to kill two birds with one stone here so I refer this post to Stan and Larry. :-D


Larry, what I meant by my statement is that when we are fed we do not search for other food by those who are either ignorant of or reject our message. It's that simple.
Much has been said about Mrs.White referring to or using this or that from an SDA author. Personally when someone on the forum has the gift of prophecy, has had dreams and visions which have been tested tried and true, has even been commended by many of her former critics, has had a life of ministry such as hers and the close sacrificial walk with God that Mrs. White had then I will consider them to be a parallel to her in terms of having the wisdom, insight, and foresight to direct our people to safe reading outside of our church. If we are going to use her as a model of what we may do then we ought to have walked a similar path and carry a similar authority.  I will hesitate very much to point people in our church to modern non SDA spiritual literature in an age when Satan is pulling out all the stops and is more sharp than when he tempted Christ. God used a book that was a mess to get my attention but I would never venture to guess that I should recommend it to an SDA or non SDA when we have literature that does not divert from the truth. I do not know what this fascination is for contemporary non SDA authors? 

Why is it when the three angel's messages are being poured out that our people are thinking they are hearing God's voice coming from modern day Babylon ? 
Colporteur, It is basically a variation of the same topic.
It appears to me that you reading much too much into statements that have been made, and your conclusions are incorrect. That is the fallacy of globalizing. When 2 or 3 people say that there are books written by Christian authors that are worth reading, you magnify the 2 or 3 people to be "our people" in general, and insult us by assuming we are 'not being fed" and accuse us of being so stupid and fallen that we hear God's voice coming from Babylon. Actually, nobody was seeking to promote non adventist authors. I don't care whether anyone reads any of the writers mentioned or not, it is not an issue with me, and I doubt if it is an issue with the others either. The real issue here is whether people have the right to thier own opinion and the right to express it without being attacked. It hurts me when you try to impose your views on others. It hurts me when I see how you often treat people who do not agree with your point of view on things.  

I believe that we must guarantee as far as possible, the emotional safety of those who would like to engage in discussions on this forum. This is a Christian forum, people ought to be able to expect to be treated in a Christ like manner, even if they say something others do not agree with. A disagreement does not have to be a war of words with people stoning each other with Bible texts and EGW quotes. I am certain that God does not approve of this taking place among His people. This could be a model Seventh-day Adventist discussion forum where other Adventists and other Christians or non Christians can stop by and see a demonstration of how followers of Jesus treat each other and join in the discussions. 

 I look back and cringe at some of the things I have said in the past. I trust that Jesus will help us all learn to consistently copy His true pattern if we are willing.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 17, 2009, 12:25:59 AM
The false evangelical gospel permeates the literature out there.

CP,
Would you like to explain what the false evangelical gospel message is?  Would you say that Billy Graham preaches a false gospel at his crusades, or have you even listened to his presentation? (BTW, I am not a huge fan of Billy Graham, but a false gospel?)

Would you classify all non-SDAs as preaching a false gospel?

It is very serious to accuse someone of preaching a false gospel. Some gospel preaching may not be as good as others, but if a person is preaching a message based on the doing and dying of Christ, and the Christ they are preaching is fully God and fully man, then it is not a false gospel.

Paul stated clearly what the gospel is in 1 Cor. 15:1-4

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
---------------------------------------------------

If a person declares that Jesus is the only way to salvation, and the only way to have salvation is to trust in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ, then that evangelical gospel is not false.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on February 17, 2009, 04:41:05 AM
CP,
Would you like to explain what the false evangelical gospel message is?  Would you say that Billy Graham preaches a false gospel at his crusades, or have you even listened to his presentation? (BTW, I am not a huge fan of Billy Graham, but a false gospel?)

Would you classify all non-SDAs as preaching a false gospel?


Stan

Without presuming to answer for cp, I think one could take the postion that any gospel that is not a complete gospel is a false gospel.  The gospel as preached by Billy Graham, Chuck Swindoll, etc., etc., lacks a very important component, namely the 3 angels' messages.  As Pastor O'Ffill has said, these evangelical preachers may be able to "get you saved" if you die soon.  But their message will not protect their hearers from being deceived.  One of the unique aspects of the message given by the remnant church is that it is designed to guard against the powerful deceptions that are soon to come upon us.  The message we preach is to come out of Babylon; evangelical Christianity preaches against "sheep stealing."  And so, in many ways I believe, as does cp, that it is an incomplete, and therefore false, gospel.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 17, 2009, 05:48:44 AM
I agree that it is interesting that there is an insistence that the topic stays on promoting contemporary non SDA authors when SDA authors excell in this area as well. i have tried several times to steer the thread back to the original topic but I guess we are promoting books.  :wink: :-D

The Biblical principal applies to both speakers and authors equally.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 17, 2009, 07:31:02 AM
CP,
Would you like to explain what the false evangelical gospel message is?  Would you say that Billy Graham preaches a false gospel at his crusades, or have you even listened to his presentation? (BTW, I am not a huge fan of Billy Graham, but a false gospel?)

Stan, nobody that adheres to the false evangelical gospel thinks its false so to go there with you will be an endless round that accomplishes nothing. You were once SDA so I think you know our understanding of this. I am not impressed with Billy Graham. I think if you could see clearly and were better informed on what he has been saying you would not be so supportive. Walter Veith has collected some of his quotes. Graham is in lockstep with the Vatican though having an evangelical protestant surface. He atells people to go to the church of their choice. While that may sound good to you, simply going to any church (including the Catholic church) when he has been approached with and is very aware of the true Advent message is to promote a false gospel. Jesus Billy Graham absolutely preaches a false gospel because it is misleading. No apologizes and were he hear I would tell him so.




Would you classify all non-SDAs as preaching a false gospel?

I will be happy to answer all your questions if you will answer all of mine. I think that is fair enough...open and up front. I will ask my questions at the end of this post.
I would not classify all non SDAs as preaching a false gospel but at best it is incomplete. The framework of the gospel that some preach may be correct but the details are off in some vital areas.



It is very serious to accuse someone of preaching a false gospel. Some gospel preaching may not be as good as others, but if a person is preaching a message based on the doing and dying of Christ, and the Christ they are preaching is fully God and fully man, then it is not a false gospel.

Oh, I know it is serious but not as serious as preaching error. This is a serious matter.

Paul stated clearly what the gospel is in 1 Cor. 15:1-4

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
---------------------------------------------------

And Jesus Himself said "If ye love Me keep my commandments." John 14:14 KJV. This is the gospel summed up in one verse.[/b]

If a person declares that Jesus is the only way to salvation, and the only way to have salvation is to trust in the substitutionary death and resurrection of Christ, then that evangelical gospel is not false.

It is indeed "false" when one separates this verse from other verses that define what it means to trust in God. You present cheap grace because not a word is said that would indicate what it means to trust in and to follow God. We are to compare Scripture. with Scripture here a little there a little rightly dividing the word of God. Faith without works is dead. The way you quote this an leave off the m other...practicing homosexual couples could use the same verses and feel very comfortable about their activities. Preachinbg half the gospel is to preach a false gospel. The Bible was never intended to have a few texts pulled aside and left there.


Stan

Would you conclude that to intentionally break one of the 10 commandments such as the 4th after having known its significance would be to follow a false gospel ?

Do you support and believe the 28 fundamental  believes of the SDA church and its belief as being biblical that those who beleive in Sunday sacredness and the imortal soul are in babylon ?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 17, 2009, 07:38:06 AM

I would also respectfully like to ask why there has been no attempt to steer this thread back to the original topic and why there has been a diversion off to the topic of non SDA books and authors of which has carried most of the thread space ?


I think our brothers and sisters know how shakey a ground they are on with this. Why don't we just return to the thread topic?



I have asked questions, twice, in regards to the original topic.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 17, 2009, 07:38:56 AM
Quote
Without presuming to answer for cp, I think one could take the postion that any gospel that is not a complete gospel is a false gospel.  The gospel as preached by Billy Graham, Chuck Swindoll, etc., etc., lacks a very important component, namely the 3 angels' messages.  As Pastor O'Ffill has said, these evangelical preachers may be able to "get you saved" if you die soon.  But their message will not protect their hearers from being deceived.  One of the unique aspects of the message given by the remnant church is that it is designed to guard against the powerful deceptions that are soon to come upon us.  The message we preach is to come out of Babylon; evangelical Christianity preaches against "sheep stealing."  And so, in many ways I believe, as does cp, that it is an incomplete, and therefore false, gospel.

Raven and CP, I have to agree with you that even if the "gospel" being preached contains "directions to be saved," yet does not contain all the Bible truths, is surely is a false gospel.  The reason I say this, we live in a community with no SDA church, and rub elbows all the time with those who do not believe the truths about Christ's second coming, the 70 week prophecy, the state of the dead, the Sabbath or even the truths about salvation.  Most believe "once saved, always saved," and it sounds like heresy to them when we try to explain it.  When a neighbor dies here, I take food, I go to the evening visitation, I help in any way I can.  But, I have almost quit going to the funerals.  Even my brother-in-law is so set in his beliefs about the 70 week prophecy, the Jews and Jerusalem, that even though my husband often takes his Bible and goes to talk with him, he refuses to see light.

This is mostly a Baptist community, and seems to be the hardest to work with.  But, we spread literature, and talk with anyone who will listen...but, I cannot bear to listen to the Baptist sermons on the radio.  I do not know this for sure, but have been told that Billy Graham does know the truth about the Sabbath, but refused to preach it.  I cannot see why he would not, as much as he has surely studied.  If that is true, that he knows the truth but does not preach it, and instead, preaches error, isn't that a false gospel?

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 17, 2009, 07:40:13 AM
The Biblical principal applies to both speakers and authors equally.

I agree Ej ,that the principles apply but not always the application.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 17, 2009, 07:41:36 AM
Stan;

Then why did you early on divert from the thread topic to non SDA books? Are you in favor of advocating doctinal purity in the books our people read? If so you would not have referred  our people on the forum to contemporary non SDA authors who speak against the SOP, the Sabbath, and who knows what else. Do you accept the Sabbath, the IJ, and what the Bible says about prophecy?  You are eccentially saying some of us have the minds like cults simply because we do not believe it right to advocate material form authors, particularly that which speaks directly against the three angel's messages. We are also against allowing people air time who do not believe some of our core doctrines but give the impression of being SDA and who have spoken against the SOP and the reading of such. (I can provide quotes). People have been banned from this forum for less. Under the concept off allowing for freedom of speech and the freedom to read what others have wrote we will see what is censored and what is allowed.
Stan I read all the posts.

I have noticed that you want support for the truth being written by non-SDA authors. Do you have support for the direct attacks against the Bible and SOP? If you do, please share with us the author and reference.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 17, 2009, 07:49:30 AM
I have noticed that you want support for the truth being written by non-SDA authors. Do you have support for the direct attacks against the Bible and SOP? If you do, please share with us the author and reference.

Do you own homework Concrete. The most flagrant evidences have been hacked but anyone who has followed the forum and was posting remembers. Why don't you personally ask the individual  you are referring to what they believe about the SOP, the Sabbath, and the IJ. Once again you folks are simply diverting from the thread topic. This has been the majority of this thread. Why is this?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: reaching4heaven on February 17, 2009, 08:13:20 AM
I'm going to try to kill two birds with one stone here so I refer this post to Stan and Larry. :-D

First of all Stan, you make a judgment call when you say that because I sell only SDA literature that this is a conflict of interest. There is a good deal of SDA literature that I would use for kindling and I sell what I sell because it is the best not because it is simply SDA. Incidentally, I am not completely happy with all I sell but it is still the best out there. What I am saying is that it is very unwise to point our people to contemporary non SDA authors that deal with theology and particularly those who speak against the Advent message. I don't know how many times I have said this. There is gross corruption in Babylon. Yes those outside of our church are in Babylon...all of them. God is calling them out of Babylon. Come out of her and join us, Stan. One (but not all) of the distinguishing marks of Babylon is Sunday sacredness. This is the papal mark. And no Stan I will not be tempted by you or others to read these books. I have not rejected the SOP and would guess that not a person on this forum that is recommending these books has even read all the prophet has wrote. The false evangelical gospel permeates the literature out there. It has done untold damage to our people and our church because many have been leavened by it thinking themselves wise to sort truth from error. So far the profound truth I have heard another say they have learned is that sex is spiritual. I'm sorry but I don't think that is profound neither does it need to come from  any author outside of the Bible and SOP. All that we do according to God's will within the marriage covenant is spiritual. All that we do period, within God's will is spiritual because it is obeying God's voice.

Larry, what I meant by my statement is that when we are fed we do not search for other food by those who are either ignorant of or reject our message. It's that simple.
Much has been said about Mrs.White referring to or using this or that from an SDA author. Personally when someone on the forum has the gift of prophecy, has had dreams and visions which have been tested tried and true, has even been commended by many of her former critics, has had a life of ministry such as hers and the close sacrificial walk with God that Mrs. White had then I will consider them to be a parallel to her in terms of having the wisdom, insight, and foresight to direct our people to safe reading outside of our church.  If we are going to use her as a model of what we may do then we ought to have walked a similar path and carry a similar authority.  I will hesitate very much to point people in our church to modern non SDA spiritual literature in an age when Satan is pulling out all the stops and is more sharp than when he tempted Christ. God used a book that was a mess to get my attention but I would never venture to guess that I should recommend it to an SDA or non SDA when we have literature that does not divert from the truth. I do not know what this fascination is for contemporary non SDA authors? 

Why is it when the three angel's messages are being poured out that our people are thinking they are hearing God's voice coming from modern day Babylon ? 


Amen!


Larry, your response to the above post is puzzling to me because it appears that others can read and say what they want but cp can't disagree with them.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 17, 2009, 08:13:40 AM
Do you own homework Concrete. The most flagrant evidences have been hacked but anyone who has followed the forum and was posting remembers. Why don't you personally ask the individual  you are referring to what they believe about the SOP, the Sabbath, and the IJ. Once again you folks are simply diverting from the thread topic. This has been the majority of this thread. Why is this?

I am asking you the question! It appears you can't and wont support your claims.

It is not about doing my own homework. Your retort speaks volumes about your ignorance in your accusations! You ask for support, many times, from others, but this statement tells me you have no support for yours (in regards to the un-tuths spoken or written by non-SDA's).

Apparently, you are not aware of how to adequately support and reference your statements. All our SDA authors do this, why not you? Why should I take your word for it? If you truly want to help convict me of the TRUTH, support and reference your statements. If you can't, preface them by saying they are your opinion rather than truth.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 17, 2009, 08:43:15 AM
Since apparently no one wants to follow the original thread topic here I would like to bring clairity to a statement Stan mande in post 126

"Only a couple of people on here have advocated a cult-like mindset in wanting not to allow any recommendations for other good Christian material.

As Larry said earlier, it is typical of cults like JW, LDS, and RCC to carefully control what their members read."

What you have assisted in recommending Stan is a book by an author who spoke directly against the Bible and some of our core beliefs, beliefs that you also reject.

As is often the situation Stan embelished and added to Larry's statement. While JW's try to forbid the reading of other material the Mormons do not. Thousands of sets of our books have been sold to the Mormons in Utah and all over the nation. I have sold to a number myself even one who was fairly high up in the organization. Cult they are but they do not carefully control what their members read. While the Catholic church forbid the reading of the Bible and the writings of the reformers they do not do so today. They tend to put down the bible and particularly Revelation (for obvious reasons) they do not forbid or carefully control at least not in this country. I have taken SDA material directly to the local priest when I was searching for truth years ago. While he was less than enthusiastic about the material, he did not forbid or even tell me not to read it. I was Catholic. While these churches are indeed cults their is only one of them that controls what their members read. My point, that people will use half truth and error to aid their cause.
     Half truths and embelishinbg what others say to aid our cause is not convincing. It is interesting to me that people on both sides of this equasion feel the other's position is nothing more than opinion, yet some seem to really struggle with another sharing their convictions. As far as I'm concerned SDAs and non SDAs may read and have freedom to read everything and anything in print, and they do. I don't think it is right though that we play the prophet and feel so secure and untouchable as to recommend to our people authors that know not our message or work against our message. You may not like my convictions, but that is ok. You don't have to.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 17, 2009, 09:03:28 AM
As I said Concrete go straight to the horses mouth. Don't trust me. Ask him what he believes and then report back. As I said, most of what was said was hacked. That was very convenient.
Just keep reading as those who have struck against our message cannot keep quiet for long. It will surface again. Frankly, the way you deal with subjects i don't think you would see some things if they struck you dead on.

The fact that the diversion in this thread from the original topic and the insistence on talking about books, opinions, personalities, and everything and anything but the thread topic is evidence that there are those who claim to not wish to promote non SDA literature who wish to do just that and then control the ability of others to express their convictions that this is not wise. An author was highly recommended on this thread that spoke directly and specifically against the Sabbath and the SOP. When this was brought to light a moderator defended the author and recommendation because the author "apparently" had some good stuff on the papacy.

Incidently, it has been stated that all SDA authors have a library of non SDA authors. Perhaps this is some of our problem today. It seems that almost every speaker out there today SDA or otherwise has to write a collection of books. I remember Samuel Pipim asking once "why all these books?" He was referring to the fact that our libraries tend to be full of all these books while the Bible and SOP languishes for want of being read. No, i am not saying SDAs should not write books. I am saying that we have a prophet in Israel. I do not think we have a church full of prophets in Israel. Why is it when we point people to the Testimony of Jesus we soooo often hear " We are told to go to the Bible." Then these same people pull out a Purpose Driven Church book or some other non SDA book? What in the world is going on here?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 17, 2009, 10:17:48 AM
As I said Concrete go straight to the horses mouth. Don't trust me. Ask him what he believes and then report back. As I said, most of what was said was hacked. That was very convenient.
Just keep reading as those who have struck against our message cannot keep quiet for long. It will surface again. Frankly, the way you deal with subjects i don't think you would see some things if they struck you dead on.

The fact that the diversion in this thread from the original topic and the insistence on talking about books, opinions, personalities, and everything and anything but the thread topic is evidence that there are those who claim to not wish to promote non SDA literature who wish to do just that and then control the ability of others to express their convictions that this is not wise. An author was highly recommended on this thread that spoke directly and specifically against the Sabbath and the SOP. When this was brought to light a moderator defended the author and recommendation because the author "apparently" had some good stuff on the papacy.

Incidently, it has been stated that all SDA authors have a library of non SDA authors. Perhaps this is some of our problem today. It seems that almost every speaker out there today SDA or otherwise has to write a collection of books. I remember Samuel Pipim asking once "why all these books?" He was referring to the fact that our libraries tend to be full of all these books while the Bible and SOP languishes for want of being read. No, i am not saying SDAs should not write books. I am saying that we have a prophet in Israel. I do not think we have a church full of prophets in Israel. Why is it when we point people to the Testimony of Jesus we soooo often hear " We are told to go to the Bible." Then these same people pull out a Purpose Driven Church book or some other non SDA book? What in the world is going on here?


I am going to your "horses-mouth" and asking you questions! Why do you divert the issue? I think you find my questioning as threatening when you respond with an assumption such as, " Frankly, the way you deal with subjects i don't think you would see some things if they struck you dead on" (You have no idea how I deal with subjects). Why not accept my challenge and support your claims instead of launching personal attacks?

Frankly, it is your opinion based on your assumption that I wouldn't see things if they hit me dead on.

Jesus wouldn't say that! He also wouldn't say "do you own homework". He would site his sources as he did to Satan when being tempted (Satan already new the source). He didn't say, "Satan, look it up yourself!" He stated clearly where is truth came from (where do you get yours?). Everyone knew where Jesus' authority came from because he told everyone directly. He didn't avoid the subject or dance around with it.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 17, 2009, 12:25:48 PM
Colporteur wrote:

"I am not impressed with Billy Graham. I think if you could see clearly and were better informed on what he has been saying you would not be so supportive. Walter Veith has collected some of his quotes. Graham is in lockstep with the Vatican though having an evangelical protestant surface. He atells people to go to the church of their choice. While that may sound good to you, simply going to any church (including the Catholic church) when he has been approached with and is very aware of the true Advent message is to promote a false gospel. Jesus Billy Graham absolutely preaches a false gospel because it is misleading. No apologizes and were he hear I would tell him so.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that Billy Graham is way too ecumenical, and I am very aware of the problems in his ministry. But the fact remains, many people have come to true faith through the imperfect preaching of Billy Graham.  Also I love the singing of George Beverly Shea.  Maybe you would suggest CP that SDAs keep his hymns out of the hymnal because he is associated with Billy Graham, and even this small influence might pollute the SDA church?

Colporteur wrote:

"You present cheap grace because not a word is said that would indicate what it means to trust in and to follow God. We are to compare Scripture. with Scripture here a little there a little rightly dividing the word of God. Faith without works is dead. The way you quote this an leave off the m other...practicing homosexual couples could use the same verses and feel very comfortable about their activities. Preachinbg half the gospel is to preach a false gospel. The Bible was never intended to have a few texts pulled aside and left there."
--------------------------------------------------

Cp, again what a terrible misrepresentation of my beliefs. You are telling me I believe in cheap grace, and then apply applications to scripture quoted that I never intended

It is really impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you since your style is quite offensive and insulting in the nature that you reply to those who disagree with you.

I see no value in any further dialogue with you Colporteur.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 17, 2009, 03:02:53 PM
Colporteur wrote:

"I am not impressed with Billy Graham. I think if you could see clearly and were better informed on what he has been saying you would not be so supportive. Walter Veith has collected some of his quotes. Graham is in lockstep with the Vatican though having an evangelical protestant surface. He atells people to go to the church of their choice. While that may sound good to you, simply going to any church (including the Catholic church) when he has been approached with and is very aware of the true Advent message is to promote a false gospel. Jesus Billy Graham absolutely preaches a false gospel because it is misleading. No apologizes and were he hear I would tell him so.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that Billy Graham is way too ecumenical, and I am very aware of the problems in his ministry. But the fact remains, many people have come to true faith through the imperfect preaching of Billy Graham.  Also I love the singing of George Beverly Shea.  Maybe you would suggest CP that SDAs keep his hymns out of the hymnal because he is associated with Billy Graham, and even this small influence might pollute the SDA church?

Colporteur wrote:

"You present cheap grace because not a word is said that would indicate what it means to trust in and to follow God. We are to compare Scripture. with Scripture here a little there a little rightly dividing the word of God. Faith without works is dead. The way you quote this an leave off the m other...practicing homosexual couples could use the same verses and feel very comfortable about their activities. Preachinbg half the gospel is to preach a false gospel. The Bible was never intended to have a few texts pulled aside and left there."
--------------------------------------------------

Cp, again what a terrible misrepresentation of my beliefs. You are telling me I believe in cheap grace, and then apply applications to scripture quoted that I never intended

It is really impossible to have a reasonable conversation with you since your style is quite offensive and insulting in the nature that you reply to those who disagree with you.

I see no value in any further dialogue with you Colporteur.

Stan

I just heard that W. Phipps (sp?) is singing for B. Graham (his son Franklin) crusade.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 17, 2009, 07:19:27 PM
I just heard that W. Phipps (sp?) is singing for B. Graham (his son Franklin) crusade.
To me it is a bad sign. Apparantly this is nothing new. According to Wiki, he as performed with the Billy Graham crusades in the past as well as having appeard on Schulers Hour of Power program. He has appeard at the Vatican, and has been on Oprah, and also Saturday Night Live, just to name a few.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 17, 2009, 07:31:57 PM
To me it is a bad sign. Apparantly this is nothing new. According to Wiki, he as performed with the Billy Graham crusades in the past as well as having appeard on Schulers Hour of Power program. He has appeard at the Vatican, and has been on Oprah, and also Saturday Night Live, just to name a few.

Oy... I did not know this....  is he trying to spread our message?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 17, 2009, 07:38:51 PM
I am going to your "horses-mouth" and asking you questions! Why do you divert the issue? I think you find my questioning as threatening when you respond with an assumption such as, " Frankly, the way you deal with subjects i don't think you would see some things if they struck you dead on" (You have no idea how I deal with subjects). Why not accept my challenge and support your claims instead of launching personal attacks?


  With all the rapid posting I misread  your question. Go to post number 58. Then go to the sight referred to there and read the questions and answers. Let us know what you come up with.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 17, 2009, 08:18:34 PM
Oy... I did not know this....  is he trying to spread our message?

There is more reason to be concerned than this but it is not as easy to validate as his appearing in some of these places and with some of these people. This is very sad as he (Phipps ) is so gifted. I hope that somehow it is not as it appears. Being at the top is a very dangerous place.

I used to hold Billy Graham in high esteem. It has only been after years of hearing and seeing that I believe he has sold out. I don't take any pleasure in saying that. That is not to say no one ever benefited from his preaching but his was a crippled gospel. I am not niave to the fact that we have plenty of the same within the denomination. At the same time we have powerful preachers that are light years above those out of our faith when it comes to preaching depth of truth. While i am not in favor of cloning (not even close) we could use many more Steve Bohr's and Randy Skeetes, and Ivor Myers.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ruth on February 18, 2009, 04:41:03 AM
Colporteur, It is basically a variation of the same topic.
It appears to me that you reading much too much into statements that have been made, and your conclusions are incorrect. That is the fallacy of globalizing. When 2 or 3 people say that there are books written by Christian authors that are worth reading, you magnify the 2 or 3 people to be "our people" in general, and insult us by assuming we are 'not being fed" and accuse us of being so stupid and fallen that we hear God's voice coming from Babylon. Actually, nobody was seeking to promote non adventist authors. I don't care whether anyone reads any of the writers mentioned or not, it is not an issue with me, and I doubt if it is an issue with the others either. The real issue here is whether people have the right to thier own opinion and the right to express it without being attacked. It hurts me when you try to impose your views on others. It hurts me when I see how you often treat people who do not agree with your point of view on things.  

I believe that we must guarantee as far as possible, the emotional safety of those who would like to engage in discussions on this forum. This is a Christian forum, people ought to be able to expect to be treated in a Christ like manner, even if they say something others do not agree with. A disagreement does not have to be a war of words with people stoning each other with Bible texts and EGW quotes. I am certain that God does not approve of this taking place among His people. This could be a model Seventh-day Adventist discussion forum where other Adventists and other Christians or non Christians can stop by and see a demonstration of how followers of Jesus treat each other and join in the discussions. 

 I look back and cringe at some of the things I have said in the past. I trust that Jesus will help us all learn to consistently copy His true pattern if we are willing.


I am a bit befuddled at this point in my reading... so I would like some clarification if it is not too much trouble.

Is this not all an SDA has to use in defense of truth? (referring to the section I placed in bold)  Otherwise, would it not just be a 'he-said-she-said' scenario?  Would that not be rather worse?
 :?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 18, 2009, 08:39:09 AM
I am a bit befuddled at this point in my reading... so I would like some clarification if it is not too much trouble.

Is this not all an SDA has to use in defense of truth? (referring to the section I placed in bold)  Otherwise, would it not just be a 'he-said-she-said' scenario?  Would that not be rather worse?  :?

I cannot speak for Larry but it seems to me that the issue is not whether we refer to inspired writings to arrive at truth -- we all agree that should be our practice. The question is how to handle disagreements, which will be inevitable, over what those writings mean.

I agree with Larry that people ought to be able to express disagreement without being attacked or having their motives impugned. This thread is a good example: There is no clear, red-line rule on the issue of whether reading non-Adventist authors is a good or a bad thing.

The complete absence of clear authority has not stopped people from using their opinion on this question as a sort of test: We were told that this question would not have arisen if people had not been "leavened" by reading inappropriate material. While I didn't curl up on the floor and cry, I found the implication that I am "leavened" distasteful. It was a negative statement about me personally that really had no place in the discussion.

I don't really care whether anyone on this Forum agrees with me. I know that many do not on many issues.  What does matter to me, and to others I believe, is that we be respectful of each other and give the Holy Spirit room to convince other people. This cannot and will not happen while we batter them with our interpretation of Scripture or the writings of Ellen White. I have greatly appreciated the many people on the Forum who can engage in a respectful dialogue without recourse to personal attacks.

Ellen White wrote:

When a doctrine is presented that does not meet our minds, we should go to the word of God, seek the Lord in prayer, and give no place for the enemy to come in with suspicion and prejudice. We should never permit the spirit to be manifested that arraigned the priests and rulers against the Redeemer of the world. They complained that He disturbed the people, and they wished He would let them alone; for He caused perplexity and dissension. The Lord sends light to us to prove what manner of spirit we are of. We are not to deceive ourselves. {GW 301.3}

In 1844, when anything came to our attention that we did not understand, we kneeled down and asked God to help us take the right position; and then we were able to come to a right understanding and see eye to eye. There was no dissension, no enmity, no evil-surmising, no misjudging of our brethren. If we but knew the evil of the spirit of intolerance, how carefully would we shun it! {GW 302.1}


So, it seems to me that perhaps the most important thing, particularly on issues such as this where no clear rule exists, is how we treat each other and not whether we are "right" or "wrong."  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 18, 2009, 11:20:25 AM
Ruth, I was not saying, , as slingshot has pointed out,  that we should not use Scripture and EGW writings, but that if we use them to defeat an opponent in a spirit of anger and malice, we are misusing God's word. If we cannot have an attitude of kindness and respect towards one another, even in disagreement, regardless of whose view is correct, it would be better if we did not post at all.  We give ground to the enemy when, as brothers and sisters, we fight and quarrell. Especially on an open forum.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ruth on February 18, 2009, 12:01:03 PM
Ruth, I was not saying, , as slingshot has pointed out,  that we should not use Scripture and EGW writings, but that if we use them to defeat an opponent in a spirit of anger and malice, we are misusing God's word. If we cannot have an attitude of kindness and respect towards one another, even in disagreement, regardless of whose view is correct, it would be better if we did not post at all.  We give ground to the enemy when, as brothers and sisters, we fight and quarrell. Especially on an open forum.



Got you! :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 18, 2009, 09:38:21 PM
CP, have you been asked to leave?  I do not agree with things  that even our pastor is bringing to us, as he is using material from the Saddleback Church, and I have told him so.  Maybe I will be asked to leave the church, but I have said that they will have to throw me out on the parking lot, and run me over with a truck...I am not leaving.

You know you have brought some good things to this board, and I always read your posts.  Maybe you have not always said things in quite the way you could have, but you have had many good thoughts, and I, for one, would miss you!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: colporteur on February 18, 2009, 09:40:37 PM
CP, have you been asked to leave?  I do not agree with things  that even our pastor is bringing to us, as he is using material from the Saddleback Church, and I have told him so.  Maybe I will be asked to leave the church, but I have said that they will have to throw me out on the parking lot, and run me over with a truck...I am not leaving.

You know you have brought some good things to this board, and I always read your posts.  Maybe you have not always said things in quite the way you could have, but you have had many good thoughts, and I, for one, would miss you!

That's putting it nicely. Take care.  :-D

Incidently, my wife said  "Praise the Lord I get him back."  :-D

Thank you for kindness.
It may seem alarming what God's people will soon experience.. ...from the church.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 18, 2009, 09:45:32 PM
CP, have you been asked to leave?  I do not agree with things  that even our pastor is bringing to us, as he is using material from the Saddleback Church, and I have told him so.  Maybe I will be asked to leave the church, but I have said that they will have to throw me out on the parking lot, and run me over with a truck...I am not leaving.

You know you have brought some good things to this board, and I always read your posts.  Maybe you have not always said things in quite the way you could have, but you have had many good thoughts, and I, for one, would miss you!

me too  :-(
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 18, 2009, 09:55:26 PM
CP, I am very serious, please don't leave!  Tell your wife you will take a little vacation, but you have to come back here, for there is unfinished work.

I think you are so right...it is alarming what God's people will experience...from the church..for that is where persecution will start.  I have experienced some of it, but I am sure I have seen very little to what there will be.

Thank you, Newbie, for support.  Sometimes one has to speak up, don't we?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 18, 2009, 10:02:18 PM
CP, I am very serious, please don't leave!  Tell your wife you will take a little vacation, but you have to come back here, for there is unfinished work.

I think you are so right...it is alarming what God's people will experience...from the church..for that is where persecution will start.  I have experienced some of it, but I am sure I have seen very little to what there will be.

Thank you, Newbie, for support.  Sometimes one has to speak up, don't we?


There has to be a logical solution to this ..... 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 18, 2009, 10:10:20 PM
I know that Larry is dedicated first of all to our Lord, and to what is right.  I know that he and Jesus can work this out!!  It has to be tough, though, to be a moderator!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Country Bumpkin on February 18, 2009, 10:20:16 PM
Dear Colporteur,

It is rare that we find children of God who are willing to stay in the kitchen and take the heat.  Those that do are called legalist, un-Christ-like and any number of names that are not their own.  One forgets that when Christ rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees, he did not minimize their sin, but called them hypocrites and administered scathing rebukes.  

It appears to me that we are being attacked on all sides.  Those that are not coerced or compromised are silenced by harassment or shame.  Do not let this be the case.  When John the Baptist was in the wilderness, he was the voice crying in the wilderness.  It appeared he stood alone, but he was preparing the way for the Messiah.  Continue to stand firm.  Don't silence yourself.  God's cause has the most to loose if we buckle under the strain.  We must hold to the truth regardless of the name calling or stigmas that are placed upon us. Remember that these are just the beginnings of what is to come.  Stay in there and stand firm.

Thank you for the stands you have taken and please do not absent yourself from this forum,

CB

 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 18, 2009, 10:39:52 PM
I deleted the private message that Cp posted. It is obviously not appropriate to post PMs on the forum.

The decision about colporteur was not done lightly and was decided after considerable consideration and discussion of past and present issues. It was not determined by Stan's email, and it was not determined by colporteur's theological viewpoints. As anyone knows who has been around for awhile, he and I are in agreement on most things. Thats about all I can say.
I am sorry he had to leave in such an angy manner.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Country Bumpkin on February 18, 2009, 11:00:09 PM
So Larry,

Are you saying Colporteur is ousted and not just leaving voluntarily?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 18, 2009, 11:59:21 PM
So Larry,

Are you saying Colporteur is ousted and not just leaving voluntarily?
That is correct. And welcome to the forum. I'm sorry you had to enter when such a sad situation was occurring.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 19, 2009, 05:38:10 AM
Dear Colporteur,

It is rare that we find children of God who are willing to stay in the kitchen and take the heat.  Those that do are called legalist, un-Christ-like and any number of names that are not their own.  One forgets that when Christ rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees, he did not minimize their sin, but called them hypocrites and administered scathing rebukes.  

It appears to me that we are being attacked on all sides.  Those that are not coerced or compromised are silenced by harassment or shame.  Do not let this be the case.  When John the Baptist was in the wilderness, he was the voice crying in the wilderness.  It appeared he stood alone, but he was preparing the way for the Messiah.  Continue to stand firm.  Don't silence yourself.  God's cause has the most to loose if we buckle under the strain.  

We must hold to the truth regardless of the name calling or stigmas that are placed upon us.

Question: What about name calling by those for the sake of the truth?

Remember that these are just the beginnings of what is to come.  Stay in there and stand firm.

Thank you for the stands you have taken and please do not absent yourself from this forum,

CB

 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ruth on February 19, 2009, 06:49:54 AM
So Larry,

Are you saying Colporteur is ousted and not just leaving voluntarily?

Say what??!! :-o

I am totally out of the loop, and now I looked back over the posts and I have no idea what happened... one minute he's here, the next minute he's not.

Oh dear!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 19, 2009, 08:15:22 AM
I deleted the private message that Cp posted. It is obviously not appropriate to post PMs on the forum.

The decision about colporteur was not done lightly and was decided after considerable consideration and discussion of past and present issues. It was not determined by Stan's email, and it was not determined by colporteur's theological viewpoints. As anyone knows who has been around for awhile, he and I are in agreement on most things. Thats about all I can say.
I am sorry he had to leave in such an angy manner.

Larry,
I don't think Cp was angry as much as hurt/frustrated by that unchrist-like message.  We should not even think such thoughts about our brethren much less put it into writing. 
I don't know how he got the message but he got it, otherwise, he would still be here.  That is the real deal.
We are all of different personalities and have to learn to love each other for those differences or we will not be in the kingdom.
newbie
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: 1WVMom on February 19, 2009, 08:32:57 AM
I just want to say, I am sorry I EVER brought this subject up.  I am amazed at how this thread developed.  My question was speakers of different denominations in OUR pulpits.  I cannot control what others read that is up to them but when they are bringing speakers in that do not agree with our message, which if they did they would be SDA, that is a whole other thing.  Yes, we can walk out...but where do we go????  We are supposed to be "safe" in our churches.  Another thing that came to mind, what are we telling our young people?  This was a university church, do you think that the kids are safe to discern when we apparently are promoting this persons message?  Maybe the older "wiser" members can glean from these people....but what about new members?  I am/was amazed that this was not considered an outrage to the people on this forum.  Even in our church manual it speaks against having others from other denominations speaking in our pulpits.  Maybe I have an older version and it has been updated????

I am sorry too that anyone was banned from the forum.  Maybe this thread should have been locked when it started getting heated, let people have a chance to calm down.  I do believe there is a lot of provoking done on this forum from both sides, again IF things are heated maybe we should take a break.  Again, I want to apologize for anything I may have said to cause this whole mess.....

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Country Bumpkin on February 19, 2009, 08:59:27 AM
Dear 1WVMOM

Don't be sorry.  This is an area that needed to be addressed.  We are not the church we are supposed to be.  My sister has cancer and was give 6 months to live, so she decided she needed to start going back to church.  She hadn't been it 20 years.  She lives in an area where there are quite a few to choose from.  After going to 3 on 3 different Sabbath's she gave up.  She said that although she was living a worldly life.  When she went back to church, she wanted the to find the distinctions the she had known in her youth.  She could not find the Adventist Church that she left, so she gave up.  I find that sad.  How many other people have found themselves in the same situation?  Because of our gradual compromises, we have lost our foundation, so much so that we are actually coming to the place where we are discussing non-Adventist speakers in our pulpits.  How far must we fall before we realize that we are becoming a daughter of Babylon? 

You know, I have always wondered about something.  Why do people JOIN and organization and then set about to change it.  You don't hear of people going to Catholic Schools and trying to change the dress code.  I used to live near a Baptist College and the girls there all knew they would have to wear dresses, that was a requirement to go to school there.  But we, the distinct people of GOD have spent the last 40 years trying to make ourselves so much like the other churches that if you go to your typical Sunday church, you will find almost no difference in the message.  I think it is sad.  We have already lost 1 generation, we are about to loose the next.  I guess Satan found it was easier to do from within what he couldn't do from without.   

It's sad that we have allowed that to happen, because it only happens if we allow it.

CB
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 19, 2009, 10:12:23 AM
Dear 1WVMOM

Don't be sorry.  This is an area that needed to be addressed.  We are not the church we are supposed to be.  My sister has cancer and was give 6 months to live, so she decided she needed to start going back to church.  She hadn't been it 20 years.  She lives in an area where there are quite a few to choose from.  After going to 3 on 3 different Sabbath's she gave up.  She said that although she was living a worldly life.  When she went back to church, she wanted the to find the distinctions the she had known in her youth.  She could not find the Adventist Church that she left, so she gave up.  I find that sad.  How many other people have found themselves in the same situation?  Because of our gradual compromises, we have lost our foundation, so much so that we are actually coming to the place where we are discussing non-Adventist speakers in our pulpits.  How far must we fall before we realize that we are becoming a daughter of Babylon? 

You know, I have always wondered about something.  Why do people JOIN and organization and then set about to change it.  You don't hear of people going to Catholic Schools and trying to change the dress code.  I used to live near a Baptist College and the girls there all knew they would have to wear dresses, that was a requirement to go to school there.  But we, the distinct people of GOD have spent the last 40 years trying to make ourselves so much like the other churches that if you go to your typical Sunday church, you will find almost no difference in the message.  I think it is sad.  We have already lost 1 generation, we are about to loose the next.  I guess Satan found it was easier to do from within what he couldn't do from without.   

It's sad that we have allowed that to happen, because it only happens if we allow it.

CB
CB, I too was out of the church for a time, not because I was against the church or anything, but due to a set of circumstances in my life. When I started attending again after several years, the first thing I noticed was tht people didn't seem to care how they dressed and I was shocked and greatly pained by the music that was being offered as worship. I looked around at the congregation as someone sang a song that, minus the words, was dance music typically heard in bars. It was like seeing an elephant in the room but no one else notices. The sound tracks to me were highly innapropriate. I expected to start seeing someone lip syncing to a recording as special music for worship. I still would not be surprised to see that happen.

I only wish that there had been someone I could have talked to at the time who would have explained to me what had happened within the Adventist church over the years while I was out. Perhaps my anger and anguish could have been better held in check. There was a period when I was very critical and condemning of what was giong on and it did not serve to help or change anything for the better. What is needed is a spiritual revival on an individual, personal level. The Holy Spirit can spread that like a wildfire.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 19, 2009, 10:27:57 AM
I just want to say, I am sorry I EVER brought this subject up.  I am amazed at how this thread developed.  My question was speakers of different denominations in OUR pulpits.  I cannot control what others read that is up to them but when they are bringing speakers in that do not agree with our message, which if they did they would be SDA, that is a whole other thing.  Yes, we can walk out...but where do we go????  We are supposed to be "safe" in our churches.  Another thing that came to mind, what are we telling our young people?  This was a university church, do you think that the kids are safe to discern when we apparently are promoting this persons message?  Maybe the older "wiser" members can glean from these people....but what about new members?  I am/was amazed that this was not considered an outrage to the people on this forum.  Even in our church manual it speaks against having others from other denominations speaking in our pulpits.  Maybe I have an older version and it has been updated????

I am sorry too that anyone was banned from the forum.  Maybe this thread should have been locked when it started getting heated, let people have a chance to calm down.  I do believe there is a lot of provoking done on this forum from both sides, again IF things are heated maybe we should take a break.  Again, I want to apologize for anything I may have said to cause this whole mess.....



I am still interested is knowing at what university did this take place and who was the speaker? Did he/she say anything specific from the pulpit?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 19, 2009, 10:42:52 AM
Larry,
I don't think Cp was angry as much as hurt/frustrated by that unchrist-like message.  We should not even think such thoughts about our brethren much less put it into writing. 

I agree that the Forum is not a place for personal attacks and have said so repeatedly. Many unpleasant things have been said on Forum about those who do not adhere to a particular position on this issue or that.  These include calling for people to be banned and referring to them as "subtle opponents of the truth" and similar terms.

It seems to me that when these things occur routinely, the Forum ceases to be a "Discussion Forum" since only those people strong enough to face a barrage of criticism will be willing to engage in the "discussion." Attacks are not reserved for those who attack the pillars of Adventism but for anyone who disagrees about even an issue about which there is no clear counsel.

This thread is a good example: There is no bright-line rule regarding reading non-Adventist writers. This is not an issue like the Sabbath or the state of the dead. No one advocated changing the Church or forcing anyone to read anything. The discussion was generally polite. Despite this, it was stated that those who do read non-Adventist authors have been "leavened" and do not properly appreciate the writings of Ellen White. Of course, such comments do not relate to the merit of anyone's position and have no place in a "discussion" of an issue. They are really an attempt to undermine someone's position by destroying their credibility. That is not a "discussion."
 

I don't know how he got the message but he got it, otherwise, he would still be here.  That is the real deal.

I don't know why CP was banned. Larry has said that it was not because of the PM. Unless you have other information, perhaps it's best that we take Larry at his word.

We are all of different personalities and have to learn to love each other for those differences or we will not be in the kingdom.

I agree. On a related note, I find the words of support for Colporteur to be very touching. It is obvious that you and others care for him. But I have to wonder if the same words would be said if Colporteur held more liberal views. What I mean is that I wish that sentiments like these were expressed when anyone on the Forum is attacked personally for merely holding a different opinion in good faith. To quote Abraham Lincoln: "We should not be enemies but friends." If more people had spoken up for each other previously, then this whole sorry incident probably would not have occurred.

newbie

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: 1WVMom on February 19, 2009, 11:46:49 AM
I am still interested is knowing at what university did this take place and who was the speaker? Did he/she say anything specific from the pulpit?

I did not mention the school or the speaker specificaly on purpose. I did not want to turn this into a bashing of any specfic person/place.  Again, I am surprised with how accepting many seem to be of having guest speakers of a different denomination....

What I find ironic, we ALL are quick to point out the errors of a SDA that is not presenting our message, but we want to lift up others outside of our church....I do not think if ANY whether they are SDA or not, if they speak not according to this word.....
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 19, 2009, 12:08:09 PM
I did not mention the school or the speaker specificaly on purpose. I did not want to turn this into a bashing of any specfic person/place.  Again, I am surprised with how accepting many seem to be of having guest speakers of a different denomination....

What I find ironic, we ALL are quick to point out the errors of a SDA that is not presenting our message, but we want to lift up others outside of our church....I do not think if ANY whether they are SDA or not, if they speak not according to this word.....

I agree this forum could possibly turn into a bashing session. Yet, from what I remember your information is second hand. Though speculating, I have an idea of where this happened and who the speaker was. From what I have found, and the people I have talked to (and those who would have invited him), your information couldn't be farther from the truth, except for the fact that the speaker was non-adventist speaking at a SDA university. There is already a website out there bashing this fellow for his views.

From my point of view, in order to make an informed conclusion of your example, I would need full disclosure of the information. On the other hand, your intention could possibly be more about the general idea of non-SDAs speaking in SDA churches, rather than the incident itself.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Country Bumpkin on February 19, 2009, 12:27:49 PM
Concrete,
What I find baffling is the fact that the issue seems to be what was said, not whether or not the speaker was an Adventist speaking from an Adventist pulpit.  It appears that we have so lost our distinction that one can not tell the subtle differences between our message and that of the mother and her daughters.  If we are true to our message, there is NOTHING a non-Adventist speaker can say that would be accepted in our churches.  I remember when churches first started swapping pulpits in the other denominations.  We as a people were mortified and stood firm against the ecumenism that was gaining foothold in the world.  But look at us now.  We are debating.... debating the fact that there may or may not be a problem here.  Debating an issue that was an understood.  Debating an issue that we were horrified was happening in the world just 20 years ago, and now we are debating the issue on this forum as if there is something to discuss, as if there is another side to the issue, as if there might be some merit to letting this situation persist.  It reminds me of the Virginia Slims commercial.  We've come a long way Baby.  Yes we have, but to what end.

CB
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: 1WVMom on February 19, 2009, 12:36:06 PM
Concrete,

As far as I can tell, from what you are saying....your information is also second hand.  So, where does that leave us???  For me it is bigger than a specific incident.  This same person also spoke at a convention for our pastors....did we run out of speakers?  I just cannot understand why we have to go outside of our church for this kind of thing????

Time is running out, we need to get serious about our message.  What you read or anyone else is between them and God.  But, as a member of the SDA church I do believe we have to speak up when this type of thing is happening in the church...

It is interesting to me, I was baptized into the church about 15 years ago.  I came in through a Revelation Seminar.  They set me up in the most liberal church in the area at that time, probably still is....I spent a lot of time with the pastor...I had lost my job due to Sabbath issues.  I saw the leaders of the church going to bars, in fact they took me dancing one night....(not second hand).  I asked the pastor about this, I had given up that life to become a Christian...his reply, if you don't like it find another church, which I did.  I am sharing this because things like this are going on in our churches, and worse.  IF we don't speak up who will and where will it end????  

I think it can be done in love but, sometimes we are accused of being to harsh if we have strong convictions....I know when I decided to stand up for the Sabbath, my boss got so angry, why?  I wasn't telling him he had to change, just that I had....We cannot solve this problem but God will....I pray that we will all be ready.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 19, 2009, 12:47:55 PM
Slingshot, you've summed up my sentiments: "If more people had spoken up for each other previously, then this whole sorry incident probably would not have occurred."  I had thought that saying less was the right thing to do at the time, but now I wish I had said more.  It is a sorry incident indeed.   :-(
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 19, 2009, 01:47:52 PM
My thinking is that it ought not be so difficult to express an opinion on an issue in a non provoking way and receive a polite and curteous reply from a person who disagrees with us.   Then one can present what they base their opinion on in a calm and polite way and either modify their position or not. Friends can disagree. We are either Christians or we are not. We "have the mind of Christ" or we do not. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, or we are not. If Jesus was sitting beside us at the computer, would we say the same things we have previously said? That is what the real issue is.

It is a waste of time if we discuss the issues that are negatively affecting our church in a way that does not please God. If we do that we have made ourselves part of the problem. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Country Bumpkin on February 19, 2009, 03:53:56 PM
Slingshot,

I don't think that the issue is liberalism or conservatism.  I used to participate on another site and found that I receive a lot of support in PM's but none in the public forum.  Conservatives have been so severely attacked that most are afraid to stand for anything for fear of being call everything but their name.  I find that sad and shameful.  It is too bad that things get so out of hand among the "children of God".  Until those that are attacked for their opinions are able to stand firm, in public as well as in private, we will continue to fuss over things that should not be issues.  One day we will all have to make a decision and stand on it.  We might as well start practicing standing for the right, NOW!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 19, 2009, 06:20:34 PM
Slingshot,

I don't think that the issue is liberalism or conservatism. 

I agree. This is the only Forum on which I have ever participated but I have no doubt that conservatives have been treated poorly on other forums.

I used to participate on another site and found that I receive a lot of support in PM's but none in the public forum.  Conservatives have been so severely attacked that most are afraid to stand for anything for fear of being call everything but their name. 

I don't think you'll find that the case here..... :-D

I find that sad and shameful.  It is too bad that things get so out of hand among the "children of God".  Until those that are attacked for their opinions are able to stand firm, in public as well as in private, we will continue to fuss over things that should not be issues.  One day we will all have to make a decision and stand on it.  We might as well start practicing standing for the right, NOW!

My experience has been that many Adventists, of all ideological stripes, have no trouble "standing" on their opinions. The problem is doing it in a way that is consistent with God's will. God is gentle. He is patient. He wants to convince and not to intimidate. If we as His people practice these methods, I believe we will be more successful in drawing people to Him.

So, I agree with you that we need to stand. We must also be sure to do so in the right way.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 20, 2009, 10:52:52 AM
Concrete,

As far as I can tell, from what you are saying....your information is also second hand.  So, where does that leave us???  For me it is bigger than a specific incident.  This same person also spoke at a convention for our pastors....did we run out of speakers?  I just cannot understand why we have to go outside of our church for this kind of thing????

Time is running out, we need to get serious about our message.  What you read or anyone else is between them and God.  But, as a member of the SDA church I do believe we have to speak up when this type of thing is happening in the church...

It is interesting to me, I was baptized into the church about 15 years ago.  I came in through a Revelation Seminar.  They set me up in the most liberal church in the area at that time, probably still is....I spent a lot of time with the pastor...I had lost my job due to Sabbath issues.  I saw the leaders of the church going to bars, in fact they took me dancing one night....(not second hand).  I asked the pastor about this, I had given up that life to become a Christian...his reply, if you don't like it find another church, which I did.  I am sharing this because things like this are going on in our churches, and worse.  IF we don't speak up who will and where will it end????  

I think it can be done in love but, sometimes we are accused of being to harsh if we have strong convictions....I know when I decided to stand up for the Sabbath, my boss got so angry, why?  I wasn't telling him he had to change, just that I had....We cannot solve this problem but God will....I pray that we will all be ready.

We may be talking about two different occasions. The speaker I am referring to is Leonard Sweet (Methodist), who spoke at the Southern Adventist University church.

Having listened to the sermon I can say that the information could have been presented by an SDA speaker. Also in talking directly to those who invited him to speak did so with careful consideration. Sweet's message was encouraging us as a church, not just SDA's, to get out of our comfort zone and employ our mission statement given to us by Jesus (declare the gospel to the world). He also stated that we need to reach people in new ways; not old ones from the 1970's, or 1950's, or even in EGW's day. This is referring to the era in which she lived, not an attack for who she was and represents to us today. Most Christians don't do much, even SDAs. He also shared his testimony about his son being baptized as an SDA Christian because of his enrollment in one of our schools.

I think all the facts should be examined about a person and their Christian walk before they speak in an SDA pulpit. It should not be an absolute (and isn't officially) that one must be an SDA to speak. In this case, Leonard Sweet was not asked by just one person but researched by a number of clergy. If someone took his message to task and complained to the conference, well, then they were not listening closely enough.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 20, 2009, 04:32:59 PM
We may be talking about two different occasions. The speaker I am referring to is Leonard Sweet (Methodist), who spoke at the Southern Adventist University church.

Having listened to the sermon I can say that the information could have been presented by an SDA speaker. Also in talking directly to those who invited him to speak did so with careful consideration. Sweet's message was encouraging us as a church, not just SDA's, to get out of our comfort zone and employ our mission statement given to us by Jesus (declare the gospel to the world). He also stated that we need to reach people in new ways; not old ones from the 1970's, or 1950's, or even in EGW's day. This is referring to the era in which she lived, not an attack for who she was and represents to us today. Most Christians don't do much, even SDAs. He also shared his testimony about his son being baptized as an SDA Christian because of his enrollment in one of our schools.

I think all the facts should be examined about a person and their Christian walk before they speak in an SDA pulpit. It should not be an absolute (and isn't officially) that one must be an SDA to speak. In this case, Leonard Sweet was not asked by just one person but researched by a number of clergy. If someone took his message to task and complained to the conference, well, then they were not listening closely enough.
Hope channell sometimes shows sermons by various speakers from what is apparantly an auditorium at the  Adventist Church's world headquarters.  They once had an evangelist named Bill Ring speak. I think he is a Baptist. It was basically an inspirational sermon. Bill Ring was born with cerebral palsy and displays the usual major problems with speech and physical coordination that CP victims have. He was apparantly raised by parents who encouraged him to not allow his disabilities to stop him from doing what he wants to do in life. So inspite of his problems with speaking, he bacame a preacher and evangelist. The gist of his message is that God has a work for each one of us and we ought to be doing it. His punch line is "I have cerebral palsy, what's your excuse?" It is a moving sermon.

However I'm sure it is not their usual practice to bring in outside speakers.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 20, 2009, 07:23:04 PM
Hope channell sometimes shows sermons by various speakers from what is apparantly an auditorium at the  Adventist Church's world headquarters.  They once had an evangelist named Bill Ring speak. I think he is a Baptist. It was basically an inspirational sermon. Bill Ring was born with cerebral palsy and displays the usual major problems with speech and physical coordination that CP victims have. He was apparantly raised by parents who encouraged him to not allow his disabilities to stop him from doing what he wants to do in life. So inspite of his problems with speaking, he bacame a preacher and evangelist. The gist of his message is that God has a work for each one of us and we ought to be doing it. His punch line is "I have cerebral palsy, what's your excuse?" It is a moving sermon.

However I'm sure it is not their usual practice to bring in outside speakers.

I've heard Bill Ring and his testimony was good. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 20, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
I think Doug Batchelor must have been reading this thread. He briefly covered this topic in this week's Sabbath School lesson study on TV. It was in the context of the Priests questioning Jesus as to who gave him the authority to teach.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: 1WVMom on February 21, 2009, 05:51:57 AM
I think Doug Batchelor must have been reading this thread. He briefly covered this topic in this week's Sabbath School lesson study on TV. It was in the context of the Priests questioning Jesus as to who gave him the authority to teach.

I believe that is comparing apples and oranges....The priest could not find fault with anything Jesus said, although they may not have liked it....
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 21, 2009, 09:05:41 AM
I believe that is comparing apples and oranges....The priest could not find fault with anything Jesus said, although they may not have liked it....
You would have to hear what DB said. It would have been more accurate for me to say that DB was speaking in the context of discerning truth from error and recognizing people who have the Holy spirit. He made an application to today. I have never heard DB  making an argument by attempting to compare apples and oranges.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 21, 2009, 09:10:55 AM
Hope channell sometimes shows sermons by various speakers from what is apparantly an auditorium at the  Adventist Church's world headquarters.......However I'm sure it is not their usual practice to bring in outside speakers.
I've seen Mark Finley interview Joni Eareckson Tada ?on Hope channel?  Lovely Christian lady whom I expect to see in heaven.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: 1WVMom on February 21, 2009, 11:22:35 AM
I am about to leave this thread due to the fact we will all have to agree to disagree but first...

I was NOT making a dig at Pastor Batchelor, I do believe that he is a straight shooter which I like.  I was just saying to compare having Jesus in your pulpit and a pastor from a different denomination are apples and oranges in my opinion....but I did not hear it in context.

Also, I believe and we are told there are many not of this fold....I do not have a problem with other Christians from another denomination....what I do believe if/when we ask them to speak in our church for the Sabbath service, it is a slippery slope....
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 21, 2009, 12:18:04 PM
I am about to leave this thread due to the fact we will all have to agree to disagree but first...

I was NOT making a dig at Pastor Batchelor, I do believe that he is a straight shooter which I like.  I was just saying to compare having Jesus in your pulpit and a pastor from a different denomination are apples and oranges in my opinion....but I did not hear it in context.

Also, I believe and we are told there are many not of this fold....I do not have a problem with other Christians from another denomination....what I do believe if/when we ask them to speak in our church for the Sabbath service, it is a slippery slope....

Is a testimony okay that is a personal experience of conversion?  We would all know it was a testimony and not a deep theological study and therefore make the adjustment...

For a deep theological study it seems that we must be careful even if there is only 1% error it is still error.  Can we always find the error?  Can we know the difference?  How can we be sure that there wasn't more if we have not searched it out?  Are we more likely to have error from within or without?  It seems today there is every wind of doctrine floating here and there and those looking for something exciting just might be bait for Satan and his cunning ways.

We had a guest speaker once from the pulpit tell us that we must reconsider the fate of Judas.  He said that we should look again and we will see that Judas was forgiven and may be in heaven.  I didn't stand up and say anything but I knew this was not right.  Did others feel the same way?  I don't know.  I have not seen him back however... :|  This dear man had very high credentials and I will not go into them but it is surprising none the less.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 21, 2009, 01:02:39 PM
I think Doug Batchelor must have been reading this thread. He briefly covered this topic in this week's Sabbath School lesson study on TV. It was in the context of the Priests questioning Jesus as to who gave him the authority to teach.

He also mentioned that we should not be surprised if our next true prophet would come out of Babylon.  Yikes  :-o

I've heard Pastor Doug say things like this before (and obviously disagree with him) and I'm surprised he still hasn't provided any Biblical support for his opinion.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 21, 2009, 06:22:11 PM
I am about to leave this thread due to the fact we will all have to agree to disagree but first...

I was NOT making a dig at Pastor Batchelor, I do believe that he is a straight shooter which I like.  I was just saying to compare having Jesus in your pulpit and a pastor from a different denomination are apples and oranges in my opinion....but I did not hear it in context.

Also, I believe and we are told there are many not of this fold....I do not have a problem with other Christians from another denomination....what I do believe if/when we ask them to speak in our church for the Sabbath service, it is a slippery slope....
IWVMom, I agree with your post. It can be a risk. I doubt if it is done very often as far as a Sabbath worship speaker. I don't think the Bill Ring sermon that I saw was a Sabbath Worship service.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 21, 2009, 07:03:58 PM
He also mentioned that we should not be surprised if our next true prophet would come out of Babylon.  Yikes  :-o

I've heard Pastor Doug say things like this before (and obviously disagree with him) and I'm surprised he still hasn't provided any Biblical support for his opinion.
ej, I didn't hear him say that. What part of his talk did say that in? What was the context?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 21, 2009, 08:08:16 PM
If you start at 40 minutes in the lesson you will see the context and remark.

I listen to Pastor Batchelor a lot, so I'm surprised he said what he did about the prophet.  I would guess if he had it to say over, he would probably say something very different.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 21, 2009, 08:48:40 PM
If you start at 40 minutes in the lesson you will see the context and remark.

I listen to Pastor Batchelor a lot, so I'm surprised he said what he did about the prophet.  I would guess if he had it to say over, he would probably say something very different.
Doug Batchelor is a good man and has been a very effective evangelist. I don't know how many times I have heard people say that they were introduced to the truth by watching him on TV. As far as "coming out of Babylon," EGW and all of our pioneers came out of Babylon. I wonder how many of us all either came out of Babylon or out of the world.  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 21, 2009, 10:00:04 PM
Amen to all you just said, Brother Larry.  I believe Doug Batchelor is "for real" and yes, he does say some things certainly that were not in his sermon notes, but, I doubt that Jesus followed sermon notes too closely, either.

As to how many of us came out of Babylon...I can tell you that I did, and I sing our Jesus' praises for bringing me out!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 22, 2009, 01:46:47 AM
Is a testimony okay that is a personal experience of conversion?  We would all know it was a testimony and not a deep theological study and therefore make the adjustment...

For a deep theological study it seems that we must be careful even if there is only 1% error it is still error.  Can we always find the error?  Can we know the difference?  How can we be sure that there wasn't more if we have not searched it out?  Are we more likely to have error from within or without?  It seems today there is every wind of doctrine floating here and there and those looking for something exciting just might be bait for Satan and his cunning ways.

We had a guest speaker once from the pulpit tell us that we must reconsider the fate of Judas.  He said that we should look again and we will see that Judas was forgiven and may be in heaven.  I didn't stand up and say anything but I knew this was not right.  Did others feel the same way?  I don't know.  I have not seen him back however... :|  This dear man had very high credentials and I will not go into them but it is surprising none the less.



Newbie,

Do you care to share with us what guest speaker with high credentials could even suggest that Judas might be saved?

This sounds like the liberalism running rampant in the truly apostate main stream protestant churches.  But I have also heard this kind of universalism being preached in a liberal SDA church, such as one in the San Diego area.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on February 22, 2009, 04:43:01 AM

We had a guest speaker once from the pulpit tell us that we must reconsider the fate of Judas.  He said that we should look again and we will see that Judas was forgiven and may be in heaven.  I didn't stand up and say anything but I knew this was not right.  Did others feel the same way?  I don't know.  I have not seen him back however... :|  This dear man had very high credentials and I will not go into them but it is surprising none the less.



Just when you think you've heard it all.  :roll: This is wild speculation and has no basis in Scripture.  Sounds like someone who would like to believe in "once saved, always saved."  How can one truly be forgiven if they do not ask for forgiveness?  Is this a sample of "every wind of doctrine" that we were warned about.  Sounds like it to me.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 22, 2009, 08:16:03 AM
So Pastor Batchelor has higher authority than SOP?

I have all the respect in the world for the man, but I will not follow anything anyone says that contradicts SOP.

Testimonies Vol. 3 Chap. 35
Quote
Saul was a learned teacher in Israel; but while he is under the influence of blind error and prejudice, Christ reveals Himself to him, and then places him in communication with His church, who are the light of the world. They are to instruct this educated, popular orator, in the Christian religion. In Christ's stead Ananias touches his eyes that they may receive sight; in Christ's stead he lays his hands upon him, prays in Christ's name, and Saul receives the Holy Ghost. All is done in the name and authority of Christ. Christ is the fountain. The church is the channel of communication. Those who boast of personal independence need to be brought into closer relation to Christ by connection with His church upon the earth.

In Christ's day, He brought the Apostles out of the false religion of Judaism into Christianity.  Again out of the Dark Ages, God raised His remnant church out of a false religion.  Are we again going to follow the errors of those before and ignore the counsel of the Lord?

As established in the Bible and SOP, anyone who comes into the True Spirit of the Lord will first be directed to His remnant church to be a part of that body, not working independently outside of what God has established as His authoritative voice on earth.

As of yet, no one else has been able to contradict this with anything other than opinion.

By contradicting the Bible and SOP on this subject, one gives support to the false teaching that the Adventist Church is of no greater authority than any other protestant church, that the Adventist Church has fallen and become a part of Babylon.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 22, 2009, 10:21:58 AM
Newbie,

Do you care to share with us what guest speaker with high credentials could even suggest that Judas might be saved?

This sounds like the liberalism running rampant in the truly apostate main stream protestant churches.  But I have also heard this kind of universalism being preached in a liberal SDA church, such as one in the San Diego area.

Stan

Soli,
I don't know for sure but I think it was soon after that movie came out on the history channel about Judas.  People that saw the documentary were convinced that Judas was forgiven.  We must guard our senses from seeing these kinds of things.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 22, 2009, 10:24:45 AM
Just when you think you've heard it all.  :roll: This is wild speculation and has no basis in Scripture.  Sounds like someone who would like to believe in "once saved, always saved."  How can one truly be forgiven if they do not ask for forgiveness?  Is this a sample of "every wind of doctrine" that we were warned about.  Sounds like it to me.

I think we are seeing every kind of weird  doctrine coming in and taking off.  Those trying to find something new and exciting will fall for every snare set up by Satan.  It has permeated our 'church'.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 22, 2009, 07:48:05 PM
As established in the Bible and SOP, anyone who comes into the True Spirit of the Lord will first be directed to His remnant church to be a part of that body, not working independently outside of what God has established as His authoritative voice on earth.

As of yet, no one else has been able to contradict this with anything other than opinion.

By contradicting the Bible and SOP on this subject, one gives support to the false teaching that the Adventist Church is of no greater authority than any other protestant church, that the Adventist Church has fallen and become a part of Babylon.

It appears to me that you are reading something into the letter Ellen White wrote that is not there. The point of the letter that you quoted from the Testimonies is not that God doesn't speak to or work through non-Adventists.

Rather, it was a letter written to a "Brother A" who was apparently a very strong personality who believed that he should abandon the Church and pursue ministry on his own. Ellen White used the example of Paul being taught by the apostles as an example of why solo Christianity is an unbiblical concept. That seems to be the key idea Ellen White is trying to get across in the letter. Consider these additional quotes:

"Dear Brother A: My mind is exercised in regard to your case. I have written you some things which have been shown me in regard to your past, present, and future course. I feel anxious for you because I have seen your dangers. Your former experience in spiritualism exposes you to temptations and severe conflicts. When once the mind has been yielded to the direct control of the enemy through evil angels, that person should be very distrustful of impressions and feelings which would lead him on an independent track, away from the church of Christ. The first step that such a one would take independently of the church should be regarded as a device of the enemy to deceive and destroy. God has made His church a channel of light, and through it He communicates His purposes and His will. He does not give one an experience independent of the church. He does not give one man a knowledge of His will for the entire church, while the church, Christ's body, is left in darkness. "{3T 414.1}

"Our Saviour follows His lessons of instruction with a promise that if two or three should be united in asking anything of God it should be given them. Christ here shows that there must be union with others, even in our desires for a given object. Great importance is attached to the united prayer, the union of purpose. God hears the prayers of individuals, but on this occasion Jesus was giving especial and important lessons that were to have a special bearing upon His newly organized church on the earth. There must be an agreement in the things which they desire and for which they pray. It was not merely the thoughts and exercises of one mind, liable to deception; but the petition was to be the earnest desire of several minds centered on the same point." {3T 429.1}

"Paul had something to do in the line of confession to the men whose destruction he had premeditated, and God had a responsible work for the men to do whom He had ordained to act in His stead. Paul was to take those steps necessary in conversion. He was required to unite himself to the very people whom he had persecuted for their religion. Christ here gives all His people an example of the manner of His working for the salvation of men. The Son of God identified Himself with the office and authority of His organized church. His blessings were to come through the agencies that He has ordained, thus connecting man with the channel through which His blessings come. Paul's being strictly conscientious in his work of persecuting the saints does not make him guiltless when the knowledge of his cruel work is impressed upon him by the Spirit of God. He is to become a learner of the disciples."{3T 431.2}

The point of the letter seems to be a call for unity and not a claim that Adventists have nothing to learn from non-Adventists.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: V. Hahn on February 23, 2009, 07:05:42 AM
We may be talking about two different occasions. The speaker I am referring to is Leonard Sweet (Methodist), who spoke at the Southern Adventist University church.

Having listened to the sermon I can say that the information could have been presented by an SDA speaker. Also in talking directly to those who invited him to speak did so with careful consideration. Sweet's message was encouraging us as a church, not just SDA's, to get out of our comfort zone and employ our mission statement given to us by Jesus (declare the gospel to the world). He also stated that we need to reach people in new ways; not old ones from the 1970's, or 1950's, or even in EGW's day. This is referring to the era in which she lived, not an attack for who she was and represents to us today. Most Christians don't do much, even SDAs. He also shared his testimony about his son being baptized as an SDA Christian because of his enrollment in one of our schools.

I think all the facts should be examined about a person and their Christian walk before they speak in an SDA pulpit. It should not be an absolute (and isn't officially) that one must be an SDA to speak. In this case, Leonard Sweet was not asked by just one person but researched by a number of clergy. If someone took his message to task and complained to the conference, well, then they were not listening closely enough.

I was gone for a long weekend, and upon returning read your post, Concrete. 

I for one am astounded that one of our Adventist schools would have Leonard Sweet speak.  Any research into his background would reveal a dark side to his beliefs.

You can read about him on the Lighthouse Trails research site (non-SDA discernment ministry) found here:  http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/leonardsweet.htm (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/leonardsweet.htm). 

Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 23, 2009, 04:59:29 PM
The point of the letter seems to be a call for unity and not a claim that Adventists have nothing to learn from non-Adventists.
So then where is the importance of God establishing a Remnant Church?

What is the point of making a call to come out of Babylon?

The most popular topic today in one form or another is justification by faith.
Quote
Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message, in verity."1SM 372
Justification, sanctification, righteousness by faith, everything having to do with my proper understanding of salvation has an attachment not only to the third angel's message, but all three angel's messages.  I'm having enough trouble learning and understanding my salvation from the Bible, SOP and our own ministers.  Why in the world would I listen to or read from someone else of another denomination on these topics.

Eph 4:11-16 "And he (Christ) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

Is Jesus Christ the head of all denominations, or just one?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 23, 2009, 05:21:36 PM
You can read about him on the Lighthouse Trails research site (non-SDA discernment ministry) found here:  http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/leonardsweet.htm (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/leonardsweet.htm). 

Unbelievable.
Unbelievable indeed.

Our new pastor is a fan of Rick Warren and Robert Schuller.  We share him with a larger church in a larger town 30 miles away.
Our church is very small, conservative and leans very heavily on the Bible and SOP.  Our new pastor knows this, so he is very careful and cautious in how he presents new ideas to us.  Fortunate for us, we have been well versed long before he came and we can see right through the New Age things he's trying to introduce us to.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 23, 2009, 07:30:55 PM
So then where is the importance of God establishing a Remnant Church?

What is the point of making a call to come out of Babylon?

The Adventist Church has an important message to share that reveals the truth about God's character. As such, it is a uniquely doctrinal message -- i.e., the state of the dead, the Sabbath, etc.

But because the Adventist Church may have more truth in certain doctrinal areas it does not necessarily follow that we have all of the truth on all topics or that we have nothing to learn from non-Adventists. Israel was God's chosen people. In the days of the Judges, they certainly could have learned some things from the Moabitess Ruth. Jesus said that the Roman Centurion had more faith than anyone in Israel.

In the areas of practical Christian living, non-Adventists have much to say that is valuable. For example, only very recently has the Adventist Church begun to produce quality materials on marital counseling. I think that's pretty important. The Church has only recently begun to develop materials on systematic Christian principles of conflict resolution which I believe is a very important area also.  Very recently I had a conversation with an Adventist minister who confided to me that our resources in these areas are "lousy." You may say that these areas are unimportant and in some respects they are when compared to the grand themes of the Great Controversy. But you would not feel they are unimportant if your marriage was falling apart or if your church was riven by conflict. In many respects, family and handling conflict are the nuts and bolts of Christian living and are more important than a perfectly correct understanding of doctrine.


The most popular topic today in one form or another is justification by faith.Justification, sanctification, righteousness by faith, everything having to do with my proper understanding of salvation has an attachment not only to the third angel's message, but all three angel's messages.  I'm having enough trouble learning and understanding my salvation from the Bible, SOP and our own ministers.  Why in the world would I listen to or read from someone else of another denomination on these topics.

It has been my experience that just understanding these theological terms does not lead to salvation. It is trusting in God and living them that is the key. In some areas of practical Christian living I have found the writings of non-Adventists to be very helpful.

You are quite free to read only Adventist authors and listen only to Adventist speakers if you wish. My point was that the quote that you cited does not mandate that we take that position.  Such a stance is your personal conviction, which you have every right to hold. But it just that -- personal.


Eph 4:11-16 "And he (Christ) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

Is Jesus Christ the head of all denominations, or just one?

It has long been the official position of the Adventist Church that there are saved Christians who love God in every Christian communion. In other words ,there are parts of Christ's Body in every church. I think that position is correct. So while that God has given this Church a special mission, I believe that the Christian Church is much bigger than just our own denomination.  The various parts of God's Body, in whatever church a particular member is in, moves at His call. Jesus is the Head of all His people.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 23, 2009, 09:22:06 PM
I was gone for a long weekend, and upon returning read your post, Concrete. 

I for one am astounded that one of our Adventist schools would have Leonard Sweet speak.  Any research into his background would reveal a dark side to his beliefs.

You can read about him on the Lighthouse Trails research site (non-SDA discernment ministry) found here:  http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/leonardsweet.htm (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/leonardsweet.htm). 

Unbelievable.

Vicky,

This is unbelievable

Here is a short summary from that link:

"The new focus is on unity -- a world-wide oneness reflected in the growing union between the East and West. Leonard Sweet's online book, Quantum Spirituality, sheds some revealing light of the envisioned global "church" for the 21st century. In his view, the offense of the cross has been replaced with a passion for interfaith peace and possibility-thinking. To illustrate this point, Dr. Sweet points to Thomas Merton, the popular Catholic author who popularized mysticism and died in Asia searching the depths of Tibetan Buddhism." The Emerging Global Church by Berit Kjos"
--------------------------------------------------------------

The Emergent church leaders should not be allowed into any Christian church.  Leonard Sweet is indeed dangerous

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 24, 2009, 06:39:16 AM
Vicky,

This is unbelievable

Here is a short summary from that link:

"The new focus is on unity -- a world-wide oneness reflected in the growing union between the East and West. Leonard Sweet's online book, Quantum Spirituality, sheds some revealing light of the envisioned global "church" for the 21st century. In his view, the offense of the cross has been replaced with a passion for interfaith peace and possibility-thinking. To illustrate this point, Dr. Sweet points to Thomas Merton, the popular Catholic author who popularized mysticism and died in Asia searching the depths of Tibetan Buddhism." The Emerging Global Church by Berit Kjos"
--------------------------------------------------------------

The Emergent church leaders should not be allowed into any Christian church.  Leonard Sweet is indeed dangerous

Stan

I have deep concerns regarding the Lighthouse site. For example, it links to the "The Emerging Global Church" site by Berit Kjos. That site, in my opinion, is a hodge-podge of assumptions and straw men. Kjos takes Rick Warren's PEACE plan and by using innuendo and mismatched comparisons does a hatchet piece on Warren that is anything but fair. His basic argument is: "This is what Warren says but this is what he really means" and proceeds to tie Warren into a one-world socialist government conspiracy. It reminded me of a book called "Hidden Agenda" that made the rounds in my area recently. Same sort of thing -- string together a series of quotes, take them out of context, throw in some innuendo and gratuitous opinion and, voila, you have a book!   (Actually, "Hidden Agenda" was not really a book, at least not in the proper sense. It was a collection of quotes ripped out of context that was more edited than actually written. That didn't stop if from having a terrible influence in my area, turning people against pastors and the Conference.)

Unfortunately, what you don't have is fair analysis. I am not saying that I agree with Sweet or Warren about everything. But the basis of my disagreement with them should be based on my personal analysis of their views and not on what someone else says about them. If I don't check it out personally, then I am really letting Kjos or Lighthouse do my thinking for me.  I don't think that's what God wants us to do.

I cannot tell you how many times I have had to correct misconceptions about Adventists that were based not on personal knowledge but on what people heard from friends or read online. It was very frustrating. I think it only fair to any Christian author that we as Adventists do our own thinking and analysis.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 24, 2009, 10:18:35 AM
Well, guess I can get all (and more) that I want from the "horse's mouth" without relying on any other resource if that resource maybe cannot be trusted as is intimated here.  Our pastor is doing 4 more sermons (has already done 5) taken from Rick Warren and the Saddleback Church.  So, I am being exposed to Warren without having to read.  In fact, I am being forced to listen to sermons of Rick Warren's, IF I go to church, so I can easily form my opinion without doing any research, for surely we can trust our pastors?  :?

But, I just do not believe I have to know all about Rick Warren to know he is NOT whose writings we should be studying, nor whose methods we should be practicing.  Not if we really want to be Seventh-day-Adventists.  Now, if we want to be Baptists in a huge congregation, and forget all about the SDA Bible beliefs and teachings, and have "good feeling sermons," then Rick Warren may be the way to go.

We (the Seventh-day-Adventist church) is the third Elijah, with the Elijah message.  That message is:  "How long halt ye between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him...."  Will we, like the people in Elijah's day, "answer not a word?"
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 24, 2009, 11:03:05 AM
Well, guess I can get all (and more) that I want from the "horse's mouth" without relying on any other resource if that resource maybe cannot be trusted as is intimated here.  Our pastor is doing 4 more sermons (has already done 5) taken from Rick Warren and the Saddleback Church.  So, I am being exposed to Warren without having to read.  In fact, I am being forced to listen to sermons of Rick Warren's, IF I go to church, so I can easily form my opinion without doing any research, for surely we can trust our pastors?  :?

But, I just do not believe I have to know all about Rick Warren to know he is NOT whose writings we should be studying, nor whose methods we should be practicing.  Not if we really want to be Seventh-day-Adventists.  Now, if we want to be Baptists in a huge congregation, and forget all about the SDA Bible beliefs and teachings, and have "good feeling sermons," then Rick Warren may be the way to go.

We (the Seventh-day-Adventist church) is the third Elijah, with the Elijah message.  That message is:  "How long halt ye between two opinions? If the Lord be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him...."  Will we, like the people in Elijah's day, "answer not a word?"

Dora,
This is most unfortunate...  do you think the HS of God will be in such a place?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 24, 2009, 12:07:58 PM
Dora,
This is most unfortunate...  do you think the HS of God will be in such a place?
There are two excellent books that explain the dangers of Rick Warren's Purpose Driven movement and Willow Creek and the rest of the church growth "experts" that many Adventist leaders have grown so fond of. Tom Mostert's "Hidden Heresy" and Herbert Douglass' "Truth Matters." Both of these books warn about the hidden spiritualism contained in these movements, and are available in ABCs, and likely on Amazon as well.

The biggest problem with the theology of the non Adventist preachers who are sincere and who reject Rick Warren's approach and reject the encroachment of New Age theology, is that they do not know where Jesus is. They could be said to still be worshipping in the church of Philidelphia. They are preaching what was present truth before Millerite movement began. They cannot preach present truth today, because they either do not know it or have rejected it. Their forefathers rejected the "open door" when in 1844 Jesus left the Holy Place and entered the Most Holy Place. As Ellen White put it, they were worshipping before an empty throne. Those churches have never accepted the sanctuary message and they do not understand what Jesus is doing now in His role as High Priest. The main pillars of our faith can be found in the Most Holy place. That is why when Adventists reject the sanctuary doctrine, it does not take them long to reject God's law, the Sabbath, the Spirit of Prophecy and the health message as well as every other point that distinguishes us from the other churches. I





Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 24, 2009, 12:21:40 PM
No, I do not see how the Holy Spirit or the Holy Angels can inhabit our sanctuary, with the sermons the pastor is bringing, and also it has become  so noisy, and many people treat it as if it were just any room.  One dear lady on the worship committee has brought that up several times to the committee and the pastor, but nothing was said or done about it.

I have seriously thought of going to Sabbath School, then afterwards going to the library and reading during the sermon.  I do not like being in the sanctuary with him preaching these sermons.  But, if I am not there, then I cannot very well say anything about what he is bringing.  Even though I told him it is not as much what he is saying, as what he is not saying, and also the source he is getting it from:  Apostate protestant churches, with broken cisterns, and he is thinking he can bring us the Living Water from there, but as I told him, "You will not find it there."

Newbie, I just now read your last post.  You are so on target!!  Our pastor said (in answer to my question) that he is going to bring some "salvation" sermons, whatever that means.  But, he has yet to even mention the sanctuary in the four plus years he has been there.  If he does not bring "salvation" in the light of the sanctuary, I am afraid it will only be more "Baptist" sermons.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 24, 2009, 12:51:07 PM
I have deep concerns regarding the Lighthouse site. For example, it links to the "The Emerging Global Church" site by Berit Kjos. That site, in my opinion, is a hodge-podge of assumptions and straw men. Kjos takes Rick Warren's PEACE plan and by using innuendo and mismatched comparisons does a hatchet piece on Warren that is anything but fair. His basic argument is: "This is what Warren says but this is what he really means" and proceeds to tie Warren into a one-world socialist government conspiracy. It reminded me of a book called "Hidden Agenda" that made the rounds in my area recently. Same sort of thing -- string together a series of quotes, take them out of context, throw in some innuendo and gratuitous opinion and, voila, you have a book!   (Actually, "Hidden Agenda" was not really a book, at least not in the proper sense. It was a collection of quotes ripped out of context that was more edited than actually written. That didn't stop if from having a terrible influence in my area, turning people against pastors and the Conference.)

Unfortunately, what you don't have is fair analysis. I am not saying that I agree with Sweet or Warren about everything. But the basis of my disagreement with them should be based on my personal analysis of their views and not on what someone else says about them. If I don't check it out personally, then I am really letting Kjos or Lighthouse do my thinking for me.  I don't think that's what God wants us to do.

I cannot tell you how many times I have had to correct misconceptions about Adventists that were based not on personal knowledge but on what people heard from friends or read online. It was very frustrating. I think it only fair to any Christian author that we as Adventists do our own thinking and analysis.



I would tend to agree here. Although the web site has some very disturbing information about many different people and institutions, I am skeptical about watchdog websites. I guess it opens the door to more research for one's self. The only watch dog group I trust is the John Birch Society.

My experience and first hand knowledge of the clergy who invited Sweet would not have allowed him into the Collegedale church if these website claims are true. Furthermore, I need to rely on my findings instead of the clergy or the site. Brings up some good questions though!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: CONCRETE on February 24, 2009, 01:16:53 PM
After reading some info on the Light House website, I would have to agree with it's analysis of the book called "The Shack". My wife wanted to read it together for worship until it displayed gross negligence of scripture and made God to be a "big fat black woman" , and I don't remember what it made Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be. I do remember telling my wife that the story sounded very NEW AGY to me. We did not continue to read it for worship. I am worried as other churches in my area are using as a Sabbath School discussion tool.

here is the link:

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newsletter090808.htm
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 24, 2009, 01:37:16 PM
I would tend to agree here. Although the web site has some very disturbing information about many different people and institutions, I am skeptical about watchdog websites. I guess it opens the door to more research for one's self. The only watch dog group I trust is the John Birch Society.

My experience and first hand knowledge of the clergy who invited Sweet would not have allowed him into the Collegedale church if these website claims are true. Furthermore, I need to rely on my findings instead of the clergy or the site. Brings up some good questions though!
I agree that we need to have our facts straight if we oppose things that are happening in the church, but websites like this do provide a needed service. Most people do not have the time or resources to lread every book that is being written or investigate the ministers and their theology that purports to have something important to say. Certain websites who take it upon themselves to do this at least sound a warning which otherwise may not be heard. People should always seek confirmation if they are in doubt.

Dora, perhaps you could direct your pastor to some material that could educate him.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 24, 2009, 01:54:21 PM
Thank you, Larry.  I have thought of asking our pastor if he has read "The Cross and Its' Shadow."  What other material would you suggest? I doubt he would read anything I suggested, but one can always try. He seems to shy away from the Sprit of Prophecy material, unfortunately. 

I cannot believe anyone using "The Shack" for a SS discussion tool.  The man in our church who "follows" G. Maxwell gave me the link to the site with "The Shack," and one look told me it was gross!!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on February 24, 2009, 05:06:58 PM
Thank you, Larry.  I have thought of asking our pastor if he has read "The Cross and Its' Shadow."  What other material would you suggest? I doubt he would read anything I suggested, but one can always try. He seems to shy away from the Sprit of Prophecy material, unfortunately. 

I cannot believe anyone using "The Shack" for a SS discussion tool.  The man in our church who "follows" G. Maxwell gave me the link to the site with "The Shack," and one look told me it was gross!!
Dora, I would suggest the books by Mostert and Douglass. They are both very fair to Rick Warren and the rest, but do not pull punches in describing the problems inherent in their doctrines. Douglass' approach is a little more comprehensive. Both books are paperback and not too expensive. Perhaps you could buy them and present him the books. Even if he is not particularly interested, he might at least read them out of politeness.  Look over the list of Pastor O'Ffill's sermons. I'm sure there would be relevent material there. I would also consider material by Steven Bohr having to do with the three angel's messages. He may have something on his "Secrets Unsealed" website. Walter Veith also has a lot to choose from on the "Amazing Discoveries" website. I notice he has a DVD lecture titled "Wine of Babylon." I haven't seen that one, but it sounds like a good possibility.

Since you have shared your concerns with him, your presence is a witness. He is reminded of your concerns when he sees you. It goes without saying that a kind and Christian attitude is important to convey towards him if he will ever heed your concerns.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 24, 2009, 07:02:03 PM
 

I cannot believe anyone using "The Shack" for a SS discussion tool.  The man in our church who "follows" G. Maxwell gave me the link to the site with "The Shack," and one look told me it was gross!!

Many have been taken in by such influence and it has not been a good thing...  I'm glad Dora that you are 'heads up' on these winds of doctrine.

newbie
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 24, 2009, 07:42:23 PM
The book "The Shack" was mentioned as being used in Sabbath School??

As mentioned above this book has a lot of theological error.  In fact it is blasphemous and trivializes God, and teaches Tri-theism rather than true Trinitarian theology.

Books like these as well as those by Robert Schuller, Leonard Sweet, and Rick Warren should never be used.  If this material is what is being referred to as "Babylon", then I am in full agreement. This is far different than referring to authors like the pastor mentioned such as AW Tozer, Louis Giglio, and Vance Havner, as Babylon. This is where discernment comes in.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 24, 2009, 08:19:04 PM

My experience and first hand knowledge of the clergy who invited Sweet would not have allowed him into the Collegedale church if these website claims are true. Furthermore, I need to rely on my findings instead of the clergy or the site. Brings up some good questions though!

Concrete,

It shows a clear lack of discernment on the part of the pastors at Collegedale to bring in Leonard Sweet, a United Methodist pastor who is extremely liberal and apostate.  What could they have possibly been thinking in bringing in this guy?  In fact, if this name would have been mentioned at the beginning of this thread, this thread may have taken a different direction. There should not be any controversy about whether someone like this should be allowed to preach in an SDA pulpit, especially a college pulpit influencing kids;

Here are some quotes direct from Leonard Sweet's book:

The first of these five untheorized observations is that New Light embodiment means to be "in connection" and 'in-formation' with other Christians. Deeper feeling and higher relating go together. The church is fundamentally one being, one person, a comm-union whose cells are connected to one another within the information network called the Christ consciousness."
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on February 25, 2009, 04:46:55 AM
The book "The Shack" was mentioned as being used in Sabbath School??

As mentioned above this book has a lot of theological error.  In fact it is blasphemous and trivializes God, and teaches Tri-theism rather than true Trinitarian theology.

Books like these as well as those by Robert Schuller, Leonard Sweet, and Rick Warren should never be used.  If this material is what is being referred to as "Babylon", then I am in full agreement. This is far different than referring to authors like the pastor mentioned such as AW Tozer, Louis Giglio, and Vance Havner, as Babylon. This is where discernment comes in.

Stan

Hi Stan:

Just curious: Have you read it?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: V. Hahn on February 25, 2009, 08:40:11 AM
I have deep concerns regarding the Lighthouse site. For example, it links to the "The Emerging Global Church" site by Berit Kjos. That site, in my opinion, is a hodge-podge of assumptions and straw men. Kjos takes Rick Warren's PEACE plan and by using innuendo and mismatched comparisons does a hatchet piece on Warren that is anything but fair. His basic argument is: "This is what Warren says but this is what he really means" and proceeds to tie Warren into a one-world socialist government conspiracy. It reminded me of a book called "Hidden Agenda" that made the rounds in my area recently. Same sort of thing -- string together a series of quotes, take them out of context, throw in some innuendo and gratuitous opinion and, voila, you have a book!   (Actually, "Hidden Agenda" was not really a book, at least not in the proper sense. It was a collection of quotes ripped out of context that was more edited than actually written. That didn't stop if from having a terrible influence in my area, turning people against pastors and the Conference.)

Unfortunately, what you don't have is fair analysis. I am not saying that I agree with Sweet or Warren about everything. But the basis of my disagreement with them should be based on my personal analysis of their views and not on what someone else says about them. If I don't check it out personally, then I am really letting Kjos or Lighthouse do my thinking for me.  I don't think that's what God wants us to do.

I cannot tell you how many times I have had to correct misconceptions about Adventists that were based not on personal knowledge but on what people heard from friends or read online. It was very frustrating. I think it only fair to any Christian author that we as Adventists do our own thinking and analysis.

Slingshot, you are correct that we have to be discerning in what we read, even in so-called watch-dog sites.  Sometimes they get over-zealous to find something new and sensational.  But as Larry said, these sites provide a needed service to those who don't have time or inclination to read and examine every popular book or author who comes down the pike. 

Discernment sites can be valuable by just listing the people who endorse a book or who are quoted or extoled therein to know that the book (or speaker) should probably be avoided. For example, if an author is a fan of and quotes Thomas Merton, this in itself should be a warning to stay away.

I believe that it is better to be safe than sorry and not have non-SDA preachers in our pulpits. It would be a tragedy to have even one soul go down the wrong road by making a wrong decision.  [An exception to this rule may be in the case of creationist or biblical archeology presentations, for example.] 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on February 25, 2009, 01:44:19 PM
Frankly, I find this whole issue quite foolish.
Use discernment as we are told to do in 1 Thessalonians 5:20...'prove all things, hold fast that which is good'

I think we need to be careful who we bring into the pulpit...the key word here is 'careful'. Banning anybody simply because they are of a different faith is not logical, especially, as Larry has pointed out, when they have something specific, relevant and important to say.

As far as literature goes....take the good and learn from it and throw out the bad.

Simple as that.

I'm sure EGW had to do that with Bunyan and Spurgeon. She loved the truths that these men had published (who also preached error in her mind) that she used many of their words verbatim. She has admitted herself that these men brought out the truths in such a clear way that she felt she could never say it better.

I think the WAY that simple truths are brought out say alot. Some authors are much better at that than others. Many non-SDA authors are better at it on specific subjects than SDA authors. I dare any of you to read Phillip Keller's "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23" and not come away changed at the profound truths Keller brings up through metaphor on this verse.

It blew my mind when I first read it.

Have many other SDA authors preached on this? Probably.

However  nobody brought it out in the way David meant it to be presented like Keller has.

Highly recommended!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Richard OFfill on February 25, 2009, 02:36:58 PM
I watched the DVD "Indescribable" by Giglio and wept!

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on February 25, 2009, 03:55:44 PM
I watched the DVD "Indescribable" by Giglio and wept!

Yes, my wife and I just bought 4 of his DVDs. His ones on 'hope and hurting' are great. Of course he does have the typical 'the souls in heaven' erroneous theology but the way he brings out John 16:33 with Christ saying He has overcome the world and how that applies to our hurting just floored me. It was so clear that  Christ suffered to ease our own suffering....ah, I can't even bring it out the way he does.

These are just great examples of how we can sift through error (after all, were we not in the same place with our old beliefs at some point in time?) to find those nuggets of truth that bring us close to the throne?

What a blessing we can miss out on due to prejudice and paranoia.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 25, 2009, 04:33:02 PM
I'm sorry, but I just can't knowingly go to Babylon to learn salvation.

Rev 14:4"These are they (speaking of the 144,000) which were not defiled with women (not singular but plural, goes along with Babylon is fallen, is fallen; includes not only the beast but also the apostate churches who follow her, Zech 5); for they are virgins (meaning they haven't been partaking of anything coming out of Babylon).  These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth...." 

There is a path of authority in which God and Jesus work through, and by my conscience I will follow only the path the Lamb walks.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on February 25, 2009, 05:02:18 PM
I'm sorry, but I just can't knowingly go to Babylon to learn salvation.

Who said anything about gong to 'Babylon' to 'learn salvation'? We are gleaning spiritual truths that are made more meaningful in a way that may speak to us differently than it does to you. We are not going, 'Hmm.. I don't know anything about this salvation issue! Tell me your version and I'll accept it!'

As I said before, Phillip Keller has an amazing link of experience to shepherding that has illuminated how David compared sheep to people. The man has lived what David has compared. His analogies are fantastic and his personal experience have made the profound truths of Psalm 23 come alive.

There is no doctrinal error
There is no anti-Adventism
There is no scriptural contradiction as we interpret scripture

How is gleaning a spiritual insight that brings you closer to Christ wrong with the above criteria being met? Simply because it isn't Adventist, it is wrong? I'm sorry but I see way more error in the SDA church than in some of these other writings. If it is true to scripture and brings me closer to God, how is that a bad thing?? I just don't understand this mentality.

If we are not willing to be open to learn from other's spiritual experiences and knowledge, we are no better than the Jehovah's Witnesses who expect everyone else to listen to them and read their literature but will not listen to anybody else. This is an etlitist mindset that will get us nowhere with other Christians. How is this getting along and having a spirit of understanding and mutual fellowship with other brothers and sisters in Christ? Are we not mature and spiritually grounded enough to sift through what we deem as 'bad'? Do you not think that they will do the same to us according to what they deem as truth?

How can we expect to learn to get along and walk together when we refuse to acknowledge that someone else has something else to say that we can glean further insight from?

I guess this question must be asked,

Do you, ej, believe that other Christians are 'brothers and sisters' in Christ? If so, do you not feel that you should give them the time of day with something they feel is important to say as you'd expect them to do to you?



Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on February 25, 2009, 05:58:10 PM
Who said anything about gong to 'Babylon' to 'learn salvation'? We are gleaning spiritual truths that are made more meaningful in a way that may speak to us differently than it does to you. We are not going, 'Hmm.. I don't know anything about this salvation issue! Tell me your version and I'll accept it!'

As I said before, Phillip Keller has an amazing link of experience to shepherding that has illuminated how David compared sheep to people. The man has lived what David has compared. His analogies are fantastic and his personal experience have made the profound truths of Psalm 23 come alive.

There is no doctrinal error
There is no anti-Adventism
There is no scriptural contradiction as we interpret scripture

How is gleaning a spiritual insight that brings you closer to Christ wrong with the above criteria being met? Simply because it isn't Adventist, it is wrong? I'm sorry but I see way more error in the SDA church than in some of these other writings. If it is true to scripture and brings me closer to God, how is that a bad thing?? I just don't understand this mentality.

If we are not willing to be open to learn from other's spiritual experiences and knowledge, we are no better than the Jehovah's Witnesses who expect everyone else to listen to them and read their literature but will not listen to anybody else. This is an etlitist mindset that will get us nowhere with other Christians. How is this getting along and having a spirit of understanding and mutual fellowship with other brothers and sisters in Christ? Are we not mature and spiritually grounded enough to sift through what we deem as 'bad'? Do you not think that they will do the same to us according to what they deem as truth?

How can we expect to learn to get along and walk together when we refuse to acknowledge that someone else has something else to say that we can glean further insight from?

I guess this question must be asked,

Do you, ej, believe that other Christians are 'brothers and sisters' in Christ? If so, do you not feel that you should give them the time of day with something they feel is important to say as you'd expect them to do to you?




Most of us hardly have the necessary time to study the Bible and the inspired writings of Ellen White.  Why should I spend valuable time sorting through the errors of other Christian writings to glean a few nuggets of truth, when I have a wealth of truth at my disposal, with no fear of subtle error?

No one denies that most of God's true followers are outside the SDA Church, but they do not yet have the understanding of truth that they need to make it through the time of trouble.  We aren't called to go and learn from them, but to present them with the truth that will prevent them from being deceived.

It's one thing to have give and take with Christians of other denominations in our efforts to introduce them to truth; it's quite another thing to peruse their literature, expecting to find some hidden truths, when we've already been given what we need.  I don't believe this is elitist, any more than I believe that calling ourselves God's remnant church is elitist.  It is backed up by Scripture.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 25, 2009, 08:22:26 PM
Most of us hardly have the necessary time to study the Bible and the inspired writings of Ellen White.  Why should I spend valuable time sorting through the errors of other Christian writings to glean a few nuggets of truth, when I have a wealth of truth at my disposal, with no fear of subtle error?

No one denies that most of God's true followers are outside the SDA Church, but they do not yet have the understanding of truth that they need to make it through the time of trouble.  We aren't called to go and learn from them, but to present them with the truth that will prevent them from being deceived.

It's one thing to have give and take with Christians of other denominations in our efforts to introduce them to truth; it's quite another thing to peruse their literature, expecting to find some hidden truths, when we've already been given what we need.  I don't believe this is elitist, any more than I believe that calling ourselves God's remnant church is elitist.  It is backed up by Scripture.

There are some that have been in the church for a long time and may have read all of the SOP and Bible.  This is only my 9th year in the church and i'm not even close to knowing and reading all that we have....  Every day is a constant task of trying to come a little closer to understanding........

newbie
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on February 25, 2009, 08:36:16 PM
As I said before, Phillip Keller has an amazing link of experience to shepherding that has illuminated how David compared sheep to people. The man has lived what David has compared. His analogies are fantastic and his personal experience have made the profound truths of Psalm 23 come alive.
I read this book probably ten years ago, Guibox, and recall it being very good. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 26, 2009, 01:36:52 AM

Just curious: Have you read it?

Slingshot,

You asked me if I read the book called "The Shack"

I have not read the entire book, but I have read enough extended quotes from the book to see that it is not worth wasting valuable time. There are statements in the book that are quite disturbing. I know that it is supposed to be a novel, but it should be theologically accurate and at least view the doctrine of the Trinity in a Biblical way.  I don't have the time to give a lot of examples.

But I especially can't understand why this book would be the subject of a SS class.

Why does every faddish book whether it is "Purpose Driven Life" (which is a lot more theologically accurate than "the shack"), or "The prayer of jabez" suddenly become the rage?

There are so many great classic Christian books which truly God glorifying that are worth reading. 

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 26, 2009, 01:45:35 AM
Frankly, I find this whole issue quite foolish.
Use discernment as we are told to do in 1 Thessalonians 5:20...'prove all things, hold fast that which is good'

I think we need to be careful who we bring into the pulpit...the key word here is 'careful'. Banning anybody simply because they are of a different faith is not logical, especially, as Larry has pointed out, when they have something specific, relevant and important to say.

As far as literature goes....take the good and learn from it and throw out the bad.

Simple as that.

I'm sure EGW had to do that with Bunyan and Spurgeon. She loved the truths that these men had published (who also preached error in her mind) that she used many of their words verbatim. She has admitted herself that these men brought out the truths in such a clear way that she felt she could never say it better.

I think the WAY that simple truths are brought out say alot. Some authors are much better at that than others. Many non-SDA authors are better at it on specific subjects than SDA authors. I dare any of you to read Phillip Keller's "A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23" and not come away changed at the profound truths Keller brings up through metaphor on this verse.

It blew my mind when I first read it.

Have many other SDA authors preached on this? Probably.

However  nobody brought it out in the way David meant it to be presented like Keller has.

Highly recommended!

Guibox,

Thanks for joining this discussion.  Good post!

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ruth on February 26, 2009, 06:58:25 AM
Most of us hardly have the necessary time to study the Bible and the inspired writings of Ellen White.  Why should I spend valuable time sorting through the errors of other Christian writings to glean a few nuggets of truth, when I have a wealth of truth at my disposal, with no fear of subtle error?

No one denies that most of God's true followers are outside the SDA Church, but they do not yet have the understanding of truth that they need to make it through the time of trouble.  We aren't called to go and learn from them, but to present them with the truth that will prevent them from being deceived.

It's one thing to have give and take with Christians of other denominations in our efforts to introduce them to truth; it's quite another thing to peruse their literature, expecting to find some hidden truths, when we've already been given what we need.  I don't believe this is elitist, any more than I believe that calling ourselves God's remnant church is elitist.  It is backed up by Scripture.

Amen!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on February 26, 2009, 07:21:35 AM
No one denies that most of God's true followers are outside the SDA Church, but they do not yet have the understanding of truth that they need to make it through the time of trouble.  We aren't called to go and learn from them, but to present them with the truth that will prevent them from being deceived.

I disagree. Sure, they may not have the same outlook of 'truth' as you do, but that doesn't mean that we can't learn from them. As has been pointed out many times already, EGW did just that, because the truths that she already knew were expounded on and revealed more clearly to her that she even used some of their words verbatim in her writings (which got us all into this whole plagiarism mess)...the point is, is that EGW admitted that their words explained much better what she received in vision and so she used them.

We can always learn something from other faiths and not compromise what we deem as truth.

It's one thing to have give and take with Christians of other denominations in our efforts to introduce them to truth; it's quite another thing to peruse their literature, expecting to find some hidden truths, when we've already been given what we need.

And this is the exact reason why people avoid Jehovah's Witnesses like the plague and call them a 'cult' more than anything else: We have the truth and you must listen to it...but don't expect me to listen to you.

I can't help but feel that this is more Pharisaical in nature than NT apostolic Christianity. I don't believe that we will get past first base with anyone with this approach, never mind 'introduce them to the truth'. What good is truth if no one is listening because of a bad approach?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on February 26, 2009, 08:58:47 AM
Quote
And this is the exact reason why people avoid Jehovah's Witnesses like the plague and call them a 'cult' more than anything else: We have the truth and you must listen to it...but don't expect me to listen to you.

I can't help but feel that this is more Pharisaical in nature than NT apostolic Christianity. I don't believe that we will get past first base with anyone with this approach, never mind 'introduce them to the truth'. What good is truth if no one is listening because of a bad approach?

If you are talking about having discussions with people of other faiths, yes, we have to discuss with them, and allow them to state their beliefs, otherwise, no one would listen to what we have to share.  But, does that mean we need to go into depth studying their literature?  I think not.  It does not take long to see the errors there, and I, for one, do not have time to study errors.  Why would one want to read such books as "The Shack?"  It is fantasy, (which we do not need, and it is gross!"  I saw enough on the book review to know that.)  Yesterday, my husband and I had to "kill some time" before an appointment, so we went to "Books a Million" to check on their concordances.  Right up front was an advertisement of "The Shack."  So, evidently, it is a very popular book right now. 

One of my SDA sisters used to read Charles Stanley books, and she gradually began to lose interest in the church.  I have seen that happen with people reading much of Rick Warren's writings.  Once again, these authors and speakers have nothing to offer that we do not already have, and ours is the "Third Elijah Message" we are supposed to be giving to the world.  Why mix the worldly concepts in with our message, and then think we have anything of worth to share?

As to the JWs, I invite them in, (unless they come when I am cooking lunch, which seems to be a favorite time) and one dear lady has come to my house for years, and we have had some rather intense discussions.  But, I always laugh at her, saying "You don't play fair, I take your literature, and I do look over it, but you refuse to take anything I want to share with you."

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on February 26, 2009, 10:20:27 AM
I disagree. Sure, they may not have the same outlook of 'truth' as you do, but that doesn't mean that we can't learn from them. As has been pointed out many times already, EGW did just that, because the truths that she already knew were expounded on and revealed more clearly to her that she even used some of their words verbatim in her writings (which got us all into this whole plagiarism mess)...the point is, is that EGW admitted that their words explained much better what she received in vision and so she used them.

We can always learn something from other faiths and not compromise what we deem as truth.

And this is the exact reason why people avoid Jehovah's Witnesses like the plague and call them a 'cult' more than anything else: We have the truth and you must listen to it...but don't expect me to listen to you.

I can't help but feel that this is more Pharisaical in nature than NT apostolic Christianity. I don't believe that we will get past first base with anyone with this approach, never mind 'introduce them to the truth'. What good is truth if no one is listening because of a bad approach?

You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I.  I just think you're way off base.  Those who do not have a proper understanding of the end time truths given to us so graciously through the Spirit of Prophecy will be deceived in the last great deception, unless they come to a proper understanding on such things as the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the identification of Babylon, to name a few.  I should go to them to seek truth?  My source for truth is the Bible and the SOP.

This is not Pharisaical.  The Pharisees were wicked, while fooling themselves into thinking that they were righteous.  They pretended to be righteous, while knowingly committing sin--they were hypocrites.

You've also changed the subject.  We're not talking about the method of approaching someone with truth; we're talking about going to the fallen churches of Babylon to learn truth.  We have been warned not to do this by Sister White.  She says not to attend their meetings.  If I'm not to attend their meetings because of the promulgation of error that occurs there, why should I peruse their literature, which contains the same errors?

I question how much, if any, theological truth was gleaned by Ellen White from the broken cisterns of Babylon.  If I remember correctly, the message that Babylon had fallen was preached before she even had her first vision, so it would be unlikely that she would look to those sources to find truth.  The sources she used were mostly historical accounts which helped fill details that were necessary when writing books such as The Great Controversy.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on February 26, 2009, 11:02:18 AM

You've also changed the subject.  We're not talking about the method of approaching someone with truth; we're talking about going to the fallen churches of Babylon to learn truth.  We have been warned not to do this by Sister White.  She says not to attend their meetings.  If I'm not to attend their meetings because of the promulgation of error that occurs there, why should I peruse their literature, which contains the same errors?

Because the discerning mind can distinguish truth from error, and the mature Christian has no problem glossing over that which does not agree with their belief system. We must understand that writers write according to the truth they know. There is no sense making a big deal out of it as it is not relevant to what I am studying. Who cares if while I'm studying an important concept I come across a passage that makes it sound like 'my soul goes to heaven'. I'm not there to learn about the afterlife...I already know the truth.

If someone has 90% of the truth told wonderfully but I throw it out because of the 10% error, I might as well lock my mind out of anything outside my sphere of influence. Surely we are grounded enough to be able to sift and take what is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:20 says this same thing. Not everything is going to be truth, but we glean what we can.

I question how much, if any, theological truth was gleaned by Ellen White from the broken cisterns of Babylon.  If I remember correctly, the message that Babylon had fallen was preached before she even had her first vision, so it would be unlikely that she would look to those sources to find truth.  The sources she used were mostly historical accounts which helped fill details that were necessary when writing books such as The Great Controversy.

I believe you'd be hard pressed to prove that. The majority of plagarism accusations of what EGW borrowed are not merely her historical data. How much historical data was there in Life Sketches of Paul that had been copied? No, EGW herself said that when she did use the words of others to describe her visions , they were the words of other's because they said it exactly how she would have liked to have said it. Their words expressed the truth so well that no improvement could be made on it.

If you feel that EGW simply used the historical facts of other Christian writers, I'd like to see which parts they are.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on February 26, 2009, 01:36:28 PM
You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I.  I just think you're way off base.  Those who do not have a proper understanding of the end time truths given to us so graciously through the Spirit of Prophecy will be deceived in the last great deception, unless they come to a proper understanding on such things as the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the identification of Babylon, to name a few.  I should go to them to seek truth?  My source for truth is the Bible and the SOP.

This is not Pharisaical.  The Pharisees were wicked, while fooling themselves into thinking that they were righteous.  They pretended to be righteous, while knowingly committing sin--they were hypocrites.

You've also changed the subject.  We're not talking about the method of approaching someone with truth; we're talking about going to the fallen churches of Babylon to learn truth.  We have been warned not to do this by Sister White.  She says not to attend their meetings.  If I'm not to attend their meetings because of the promulgation of error that occurs there, why should I peruse their literature, which contains the same errors?

I question how much, if any, theological truth was gleaned by Ellen White from the broken cisterns of Babylon.  If I remember correctly, the message that Babylon had fallen was preached before she even had her first vision, so it would be unlikely that she would look to those sources to find truth.  The sources she used were mostly historical accounts which helped fill details that were necessary when writing books such as The Great Controversy.

Raven,
I agree with you...  this is why "The Living Temple" was destroyed by God in the fire at Battle Creek.  There was so much truth and just a little bit of error and written so cunningly that people could not see the error and accepted it.  She called it the alpha of apostasy.
When we are confident that we know truth from error Satan will design a work especially for us to keep us happy in the snare.
Discernment is a gift and so is knowledge and wisdom and prophecy....When we start relying on our own wisdom, we are in trouble.
newbie
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on February 26, 2009, 02:52:43 PM
Because the discerning mind can distinguish truth from error, and the mature Christian has no problem glossing over that which does not agree with their belief system. We must understand that writers write according to the truth they know. There is no sense making a big deal out of it as it is not relevant to what I am studying. Who cares if while I'm studying an important concept I come across a passage that makes it sound like 'my soul goes to heaven'. I'm not there to learn about the afterlife...I already know the truth.

If someone has 90% of the truth told wonderfully but I throw it out because of the 10% error, I might as well lock my mind out of anything outside my sphere of influence. Surely we are grounded enough to be able to sift and take what is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:20 says this same thing. Not everything is going to be truth, but we glean what we can.



The key phrase is "distinguish truth from error."  The deceptions will be so great that "if it were possible" even the elect would  be deceived.  That tells me that the deceptions will not only be the obvious ones, but also subtle ones.  This is not only future, but is taking place even now, as is evidenced by so many people who have become confused about the investigative judgment, thanks in part to Desmond Ford. 

I'd rather close the avenues of deception as much as possible by being very selective in what I read, even from SDA authors.  Our biggest danger in the end times is not persecution, but deception.

I won't argue with you on the use of other sources by Sister White, because I haven't really studied into it that much.  She has met the test of being a true prophet of God, and that's all that matters to me.  The Holy Spirit guided her as she wrote, whether by direct revelation, or by leading her to sources that presented truth.  Here role was unique, and none of us has been called to do what she did.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: A cruce salus on February 26, 2009, 06:55:07 PM
The key phrase is "distinguish truth from error."  The deceptions will be so great that "if it were possible" even the elect would  be deceived.  That tells me that the deceptions will not only be the obvious ones, but also subtle ones.  This is not only future, but is taking place even now, as is evidenced by so many people who have become confused about the investigative judgment, thanks in part to Desmond Ford. 

I'd rather close the avenues of deception as much as possible by being very selective in what I read, even from SDA authors.  Our biggest danger in the end times is not persecution, but deception.

I won't argue with you on the use of other sources by Sister White, because I haven't really studied into it that much.  She has met the test of being a true prophet of God, and that's all that matters to me.  The Holy Spirit guided her as she wrote, whether by direct revelation, or by leading her to sources that presented truth.  Here role was unique, and none of us has been called to do what she did.



I agree with Raven why would i want anything that would open up an avenue in my life that may let the devil through since he is going about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

In the churches today there is soo much confusion and error what comes down the pipe if you will needs to be tested by the word of God.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on February 26, 2009, 07:13:26 PM
the way he brings out John 16:33 with Christ saying He has overcome the world and how that applies to our hurting just floored me. It was so clear that  Christ suffered to ease our own suffering....ah, I can't even bring it out the way he does.

I don't think that's Biblical.
Rom 8:17 "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Perhaps I will be accused of brow beating with the Bible, but the texts are so simply clear to me.

2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

I do believe people of other denominations are our brothers and sisters in Christ, but as a member in the Remnant Church, we are to be the teachers, not the students.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on February 26, 2009, 08:27:27 PM
I don't think that's Biblical.
Rom 8:17 "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

ej, it's been awhile since I have seen it so I am most likely misquoting him and it is hard to summarize what he has brought out in a systematic way.

However, Jesus promised us to 'come to Me all ye that are heavy laden and I will give you rest'. John 16:33 promises us that no matter what we've gone through, we need not have fear because by Christ's suffering and victory, He has overcome the world. Because He has overcome the world, He can and will overcome that which besets us and offers us peace that we cannot have through the storms without Him.

That is a wonderful promise.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: SDA4Life on February 28, 2009, 12:10:45 PM
I disagree. Sure, they may not have the same outlook of 'truth' as you do, but that doesn't mean that we can't learn from them. As has been pointed out many times already, EGW did just that, because the truths that she already knew were expounded on and revealed more clearly to her that she even used some of their words verbatim in her writings (which got us all into this whole plagiarism mess)...the point is, is that EGW admitted that their words explained much better what she received in vision and so she used them.

We can always learn something from other faiths and not compromise what we deem as truth.

Is their a Biblical example of either direction to look at what other faiths were saying about God, or, where any of the patriarchs/prophets/apostles examined what others believed?

And this is the exact reason why people avoid Jehovah's Witnesses like the plague and call them a 'cult' more than anything else: We have the truth and you must listen to it...but don't expect me to listen to you.

I can't help but feel that this is more Pharisaical in nature than NT apostolic Christianity. I don't believe that we will get past first base with anyone with this approach, never mind 'introduce them to the truth'. What good is truth if no one is listening because of a bad approach?

In all of the Bible studies and evangelistic meetings I have been involved with I have taken what you would call the "Jehovah's Witness" approach of I have the truth as found in the scriptures, please listen. I agree whenever possible, but always present the truth in a Christ-like way. Have there been some that have been turned off? Sure, that's what will happen when the truth is presented. But there have been many, many more in which we have gotten past first base and all the way to the baptismal tank and active church membership. What good is knowing the truth if we never share it because we are too busy listening?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on February 28, 2009, 01:06:21 PM
Is their a Biblical example of either direction to look at what other faiths were saying about God, or, where any of the patriarchs/prophets/apostles examined what others believed?

SDA4life,

I don't think it is quite fair to compare the situation in Israel or the time of the apostles to this discussion.  On this thread, we are talking about different denominations WITHIN the same CHRISTIAN faith. For all in the world who are true believers regardless of the denomination, believe the basic truths of the Christian faith. However, even within the "Christian" denominations we have emphasized the need for discernment, and this goes for discernment among SDA teachers. For example I would heartily endorse HMS Richards SR, but would say that the writings of Graham Maxwell should be thrown out along with all the other pop seeker sensitive materials

AW Tozer, Louie Giglio, and other fine examples of other Christians mentioned on this thread, are not of another faith. If this were true, we should not be endorsing their materials at all, but the fact is that these and many others are true Christians and have valuable books and DVDs.

I agree that as Christians we are not to be examining other religions for any particular truth. There is value in knowing what other religions believe, in order to better witness to them.
The Apostle Paul was well versed in all the religions and philosophies that he witnessed to, so he could try to relate to them, as he did so well in his Mars Hill sermon.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Jim on February 28, 2009, 02:33:29 PM
I have not take the time to read this whole thread so please forgive me if this seems a little out of place. I don't have time to read 26 pages of responses.

However, just recently I read D'aubigne's biography of Martin Luther. I believe that Martin Luther was a great man used by God and in my lowly estimation will probably be in Heaven. There is no doubt that he played a significant positive role in the reformation. And I agree with him in many points of doctrine. However, if he were alive today I would not ask him to preach from my local Seventh-day Adventist's church pulpit.

It's one thing to sit at home and read or listen to material by other Christian authors and spit out the "seeds" of their message for yourself. It's an entirely different thing to preach from the pulpit and give influence to a person that only has a few points in common with your beliefs. We're told by Christ... " for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." He would not be able to check all his biases and beliefs at the door.

Not everyone sitting in the church pew is mature enough in their Christian walk to discern subtle error. We don't want to cause our weaker brother to stumble. There are even Seventh-day Adventist pastors, speakers, and authors that I don't listen to or read their material. Call me closed minded but I choose to not expose myself to error that will eventually come out.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: SDA4Life on February 28, 2009, 03:17:54 PM
SDA4life,

I don't think it is quite fair to compare the situation in Israel or the time of the apostles to this discussion.  On this thread, we are talking about different denominations WITHIN the same CHRISTIAN faith. For all in the world who are true believers regardless of the denomination, believe the basic truths of the Christian faith. However, even within the "Christian" denominations we have emphasized the need for discernment, and this goes for discernment among SDA teachers. For example I would heartily endorse HMS Richards SR, but would say that the writings of Graham Maxwell should be thrown out along with all the other pop seeker sensitive materials

AW Tozer, Louie Giglio, and other fine examples of other Christians mentioned on this thread, are not of another faith. If this were true, we should not be endorsing their materials at all, but the fact is that these and many others are true Christians and have valuable books and DVDs.

I agree that as Christians we are not to be examining other religions for any particular truth. There is value in knowing what other religions believe, in order to better witness to them.
The Apostle Paul was well versed in all the religions and philosophies that he witnessed to, so he could try to relate to them, as he did so well in his Mars Hill sermon.

Stan

Stan,

The question posed was more in relation to gui's follow-up statements and question. If SDA's want to read something by an author of a different denomination that is not inherently wrong, as has been said discernment is needed. That is not the issue that I was addressing, although having reread my post I can see why that was unclear.

I was addressing the concept that I must listen to what someone else believes in order to witness to them.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 01, 2009, 12:26:28 AM
Thanks SDA4life for the clarification, as it looks like I misunderstood you. Sorry about that.

It is true that to be a good apologist and reach people in cults and false religions, it is necessary to learn a little of what they believe, so that possible common ground can be reached. It would be helpful to know some of the basic beliefs of JWs, or Mormons before having a conversation at your door when they do come by, just in case they might be open to listen.

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on March 01, 2009, 11:06:43 AM
I was addressing the concept that I must listen to what someone else believes in order to witness to them.

SDA, I don't believe I was speaking about that. It's not about 'witnessing to them' it's about learning something from other's beliefs.

However, in relation to 'listening' for 'witnessing', there is a correlation here. If the party you are talking to only believes they are tuning them out to formulate your next argument, you are not going to get anywhere with them. This is just common sense in communication. This is why so many people don't want to talk to JWs. They KNOW that they are not supposed to listen to anything you say. Their job is to come in and convince you of THEIR arguments. This is why they will not read anything people give them...but they freely hand out their literature to you. This is why they will not step foot in another church...but they will try to have you come visit the Kingdom Hall.

This is elitist Pharisaism that slams the door on effective communication and witnessing.
This is another identifier of a brainwashed cult who isolates themselves from everyone while pushing their agenda.

The SDA church is better than that and has a higher calling in the witnessing of the world than to fall into that rut.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on March 01, 2009, 02:16:49 PM


It's one thing to sit at home and read or listen to material by other Christian authors and spit out the "seeds" of their message for yourself. It's an entirely different thing to preach from the pulpit and give influence to a person that only has a few points in common with your beliefs. We're told by Christ... " for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." He would not be able to check all his biases and beliefs at the door.

Not everyone sitting in the church pew is mature enough in their Christian walk to discern subtle error. We don't want to cause our weaker brother to stumble. There are even Seventh-day Adventist pastors, speakers, and authors that I don't listen to or read their material. Call me closed minded but I choose to not expose myself to error that will eventually come out.

I agree Jim with this viewpoint...

newbie
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 01, 2009, 03:23:04 PM
Hummmmmmmmmmmm, perhaps a human slingshot named David  :uhoh:
hhhe ehee heeeee

Deborah
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 01, 2009, 04:25:15 PM
This is an interesting forum to read...I have been trying to catch up here.........why would an SDA Church use a book (The Shack) for Sabbath School?

Actually, why use it and many other books for "worship?"  Have we gotten that bored with Scripture??? Have we "exhausted" Scripture to the point that we set it aside???

Perhaps this is why our "reference points" of life have moved...and our frame of mind has been won over to the world.

Early Writings has a sad section in it...  pg. 226-228 titled "The Church and the World United"

This thread  explains alot to me.

God Keep Us All, I pray He does............

Deborah    :-(
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on March 01, 2009, 09:52:05 PM
Quote
The Church and the World
                          United


     .....

     Satan therefore decided that he must come in a milder form. He had already corrupted the doctrines of the Bible, and traditions which were to ruin millions were taking deep root. Restraining his hate, he decided not to urge on his subjects to such bitter persecution, but lead the church to contend for various traditions, instead of for the faith once delivered to
                                                                            227
the saints. As he prevailed on the church to receive favors and honors from the world, under the pretense of receiving benefits, she began to lose favor with God. Shunning to declare the straight truths which shut out the lovers of pleasure and friends of the world, she gradually lost her power. {EW 226.2}

     The church is not now the separate and peculiar people she was when the fires of persecution were kindled against her. How is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed! I saw that if the church had always retained her peculiar, holy character, the power of the Holy Spirit which was imparted to the disciples would still be with her. The sick would be healed, devils would be rebuked and cast out, and she would be mighty and a terror to her enemies. {EW 227.1}

     I saw a very large company professing the name of Christ, but God did not recognize them as His. He had no pleasure in them. Satan seemed to assume a religious character and was very willing that the people should think they were Christians. He was even anxious that they should believe in Jesus, His crucifixion, and His resurrection. Satan and his angels fully believe all this themselves, and tremble. But if this faith does not provoke to good works, and lead those who profess it to imitate the self-denying life of Christ, Satan is not disturbed; for they merely assume the Christian name, while their hearts are still carnal, and he can use them in his service even better than if they made no profession. Hiding their deformity under the name of Christian, they pass along with their unsanctified natures, and their evil passions unsubdued. This gives occasion for the unbeliever to reproach Christ with their imperfections, and causes those who do possess pure and undefiled religion to be brought into disrepute.
                                                                            228
{EW 227.2}

     The ministers preach smooth things to suit carnal professors. They dare not preach Jesus and the cutting truths of the Bible; for if they should, these carnal professors would not remain in the church. But as many of them are wealthy, they must be retained, although they are no more fit to be there than Satan and his angels. This is just as Satan would have it. The religion of Jesus is made to appear popular and honorable in the eyes of the world. The people are told that those who profess religion will be more honored by the world. Such teachings differ very widely from the teachings of Christ. His doctrine and the world could not be at peace. Those who followed Him had to renounce the world. These smooth things originated with Satan and his angels. They formed the plan, and nominal professors carried it out. Pleasing fables were taught and readily received, and hypocrites and open sinners united with the church. If the truth had been preached in its purity, it would soon have shut out this class. But there was no difference between the professed followers of Christ and the world. I saw that if the false covering had been torn off from the members of the churches, there would have been revealed such iniquity, vileness, and corruption that the most diffident child of God would have had no hesitancy in calling these professed Christians by their right name, children of their father, the devil; for his works they did. {EW 228.1}

     Jesus and all the heavenly host looked with disgust upon the scene; yet God had a message for the church that was sacred and important. If received, it would make a thorough reformation in the church, revive the living testimony that would purge out hypocrites and sinners, and bring the church again into favor with God.

Emphasis in bold is not in the original text and this is excerpted from the chapter so it is not as long.

newbie
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 01, 2009, 10:12:40 PM
Emphasis in bold is not in the original text and this is excerpted from the chapter so it is not as long.

newbie

What is the point of this quote as it relates to this thread?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 02, 2009, 12:30:34 AM

However, just recently I read D'aubigne's biography of Martin Luther. I believe that Martin Luther was a great man used by God and in my lowly estimation will probably be in Heaven. There is no doubt that he played a significant positive role in the reformation. And I agree with him in many points of doctrine. However, if he were alive today I would not ask him to preach from my local Seventh-day Adventist's church pulpit.


I would think that any church that considered itself truly Protestant would welcome Martin Luther to preach in their pulpit.

Jim, that is an excellent biography of Luther. Have you read any of his writings?  There are good translations of Luther's works out there.  There is a commentary he did on the book of Galatians that is excellent.

Here is an online site to be able to read this book and it is free:

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=38436&pageno=1

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on March 02, 2009, 05:56:08 AM
What is the point of this quote as it relates to this thread?

If you were spending more time in Adventism you'd understand.

Exellent post Newbie.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 02, 2009, 06:02:52 AM
If you were spending more time in Adventism you'd understand.

Exellent post Newbie.

 :?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on March 02, 2009, 06:05:05 AM
I would think that any church that considered itself truly Protestant would welcome Martin Luther to preach in their pulpit.


Stan


If you can find a Protestant church in this day and age.  :roll:  Stephen Bohr has an excellent sermon on the demise of Protestantism.  It is well worth watching.  I think it is entitled either  "Protestants Are No More," or Protestantism Is No More."
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on March 02, 2009, 06:23:07 AM
If you were spending more time in Adventism you'd understand.


ej, let's avoid these potshots, shall we? Comments such as these can only further divide us and can end up escalating into areas where people either leave or get banned.  I came back on this forum against my better judgement due to comments like this and a lack of intolerance I've experienced. I'd like to wipe the slate clean and not have an agenda of divisivness and argumentation.

How about you explain newbie's quote to Slingshot instead?  :wink:
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 02, 2009, 06:31:51 AM
This is an interesting forum to read...I have been trying to catch up here.........why would an SDA Church use a book (The Shack) for Sabbath School?

My guess is that it was used in a large church that has several different classes, some with the quarterly and others with different emphases. It's a common practice in large churches and has been for some time.

Actually, why use it and many other books for "worship?"  Have we gotten that bored with Scripture??? Have we "exhausted" Scripture to the point that we set it aside???

We don't know whether they have "set aside" the Bible. My experience has been that SS groups that use study materials other than the quarterly use them in conjunction with the Scripture.  Unless we know, why don't we assume the best?

Perhaps this is why our "reference points" of life have moved...and our frame of mind has been won over to the world.

I do not know what you mean here. The implication appears to be that reading materials like "The Shack" has moved people from a Bible-based world view to a more worldy one. If that is what you meant, I disagree.

The real evidence of Christ in a believer's life is not ireading only 100% doctrinally correct material. Nor is it intellectual assent to a set of doctrinal propositions. The evidence of God's presence is the Fruit of the Spirit and a changed heart.

There are plenty of traditional, conservative Bible-and-Spirit-of-Prophecy-only Adventists who would never pick up a non-Adventist piece of literature who are just as "worldly" as the local bar crowd. They are worldly not because they have been exposed to worldly ideas in non-Adventist books but because, while their heads have the right knowledge, their hearts are the same as they were before -- controlling, grasping, judgmental, cruel, vindictive, and, at the base of it all, self-centered. (This can just as easily go for "liberals" too.)


Early Writings has a sad section in it...  pg. 226-228 titled "The Church and the World United"

I agree that this is a sad passage but Ellen White ain't talking about reading material, she's talking about the condition of people's hearts. The passage you cited reads in part:

"Hiding their deformity under the name of Christian, they pass along with their unsanctified natures, and their evil passions unsubdued. This gives occasion for the unbeliever to reproach Christ with their imperfections [What "imperfections" among God's people would an unbeliever reproach Christ with? Drinking coffee? Wearing a necklace? The people that Ellen White is writing about have unconverted hearts and are so self-centered that even non-Christians are repulsed by their actions.] and causes those who do possess pure and undefiled religion to be brought into disrepute....

Pleasing fables were taught and readily received, and hypocrites and open sinners united with the church. If the truth had been preached in its purity [You must have a new heart. Self-centeredness is the root of our problem. We can't do business as the world does.], it would soon have shut out this class. But there was no difference between the professed followers of Christ and the world. I saw that if the false covering [this is not an obvious problem -- it's a problem of the heart] had been torn off from the members of the churches, there would have been revealed [Again -- It wasn't obvious.] such iniquity, vileness, and corruption that the most diffident child of God would have had no hesitancy in calling these professed Christians by their right name, children of their father, the devil; for his works they did.


What Ellen White is describing is not people who read "unsanctioned" material. She's not describing people who wear jewelry or drink coffee. She is describing people who look on the outside like good Adventists but whose essential inner nature -- selfishness -- is unchanged despite their tithe paying and sabbath keeping.

The Adventists who she is describing didn't get that way by reading "The Shack" or Rob Bell or C.S. Lewis or Stormie Omartian. They were that way before they joined the church and their intellectual assent to a set of doctrines hasn't changed them. They need to be born again.


This thread  explains alot to me.

God Keep Us All, I pray He does............

As do I.

Deborah    :-(
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 02, 2009, 01:17:00 PM
Slingshot,

What value can there possibly be in studying the book "The Shack" in an SS class or at all for that matter?

This is just another one of those faddish books that pop Christianity is famous for.  Before classes have studied "Purpose Driven Life", and "Prayer of Jabez".  So what is the next faddish book that is going to sell millions of copies?

These books do not have any scriptural depth to them. They are emotionally appealing, and that is why they sell.  The marketers behind these books know all about the best of slick "Madison Avenue" marketing techniques.

Maybe you can tell us why any Adventists or other Christians should pay attention and buy or read these books?

Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 02, 2009, 01:50:59 PM
Slingshot,

What value can there possibly be in studying the book "The Shack" in an SS class or at all for that matter?

This is just another one of those faddish books that pop Christianity is famous for.  Before classes have studied "Purpose Driven Life", and "Prayer of Jabez".  So what is the next faddish book that is going to sell millions of copies?

These books do not have any scriptural depth to them. They are emotionally appealing, and that is why they sell.  The marketers behind these books know all about the best of slick "Madison Avenue" marketing techniques.

Maybe you can tell us why any Adventists or other Christians should pay attention and buy or read these books?

Stan

I have not read The Shack so I cannot speak to its merits. Some very good Christian friends of mine have read it and absolutely loved it. My understanding is that it is an allegory much like some of C.S. Lewis' books. As I recall that you have not read it either, your criticism has less weight than it would had you done so.

I did go the author's website and he seems a pretty impressive guy from some of his testimonies. I found his discussion of God freeing him from materialism to be particularly powerful. As he seems to be a believer who loves God, perhaps we should be a bit easier on him. And it seems that God has spoken to some people through the book, if what people have told me is any indication. Perhaps we shouldn't be so hasty to judge.

I guess what I'm saying is that "value" is relative. Some things speak to you and won't speak to me and vice versa. That's why God had different people with different temperments and personalities write the Scriptures. I'm not going to tell God that He can't use author X to appeal to point of view in another reader that I don't share. I think that's presumptuous.

I did read both the other books you cited. I enjoyed The Purpose Driven Life and found parts of it useful while not agreeing with all of it. I read The Prayer of Jabez and thought not really seeing what all the fuss was about, enjoyed it too. I might mention that I have found much of the criticism of the latter book to be misplaced and based upon a misunderstanding of the author's main point. Neither book had a huge impact on me and I would be hard pressed to conduct an in-depth discussion of either without reviewing them. (I'm not even sure where my copies are.....)

I found both the books that I did read to be well-reasoned and not purely based upon an appeal to emotion. But let us assume for a moment that they were largely emotional. So what? God gave us emotions. A relationship with God is a matter of both the head and the heart. Keeping them in balance is the key. If you peruse the Psalms and the Prophets, you will find that they are plenty emotional. I enjoy intellectual stimulation as much, and probably much more, than most people. But I enjoy a good laugh or a good cry as well.

The books are marketed. Again, so what? All books are marketed. The books that you find meaningful were marketed. That doesn't make them bad. Sometimes an unworthy but well-marketed book takes off and becomes influential in excess of its merits. That happens in every arena from books to music to people so I don't let it bother me.

As to my explaining why you should read this or that book right now....I think that I'll pass. I've already explained why certain books and authors were meaningful to me. As these books really weren't like that for me, I would be a poor spokesman. And if you're not the person who's willing to take a flyer on a book that you might not like, then I don't know if there's much point in the exercise anyway.

Additionally, it sounds as though you and I have different tastes in reading and that's OK. When I read parts of Scripture or the writings of Ellen White and a light bulb goes off or when I read Lewis or a passage in Bell or Donald Miller, I am sometimes filled with a sense of wonder that is difficult to articulate. I don't know that I want to "bare my soul" and try to justify why something touched my heart on an open forum. If you'd like to discuss the matter further, I'd be happy to exchange some messages with you.  :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 02, 2009, 02:08:22 PM
Hello Slingshot...to start, I hope you took what I said in my post with humor.(a slingshot named David)...there was no intent to offend.  Just trying to be friendly with some humor.

Back to your post about my reference to Early Writings.

In looking at our Sabbath School Q. lesson #8 "The Authority of the Prophets" it seems to me, the essence of that lesson and this thread comes down to "authority and judgment." So in that frame of mind I will try to satisfy your inquiry.

Probably most of us on this forum read SDA and non-SDA materials. I do not see that as an issue. Let each decide for himself.

However, it would seem to me, this conversation is asking questions that the answers will be dis-satisfing for some..IE Martin Luther to preach in our churches...sharing the pulpit with those of different persuasions "in our chuches" and the like. And, basically how much time do I (we/us) give to those of other religious thought).  It is alway good to be acquainted with the train of thought of those we want to win to the "Biblical Christ." 

Having said all this....in response to reading The Shack..I don't know of the book, but, if I had to read "every book" to make it "fair" to make any statement..."ever" is not fessable.

Concerning my statement about "reference points" I think is valid.  Our reference points....those principles of recommendations from which we weigh out and make our judgment calls, is a make or break proprosition for each of us.

Equating the SS lesson #8 and the reference from Early Writings "The Church and the World United" explains why we have these differences in thought.  All decisions that take place in the mind...all actions that become follow through due to the way we think has everything to do with this thread....

When we leave "sound Biblical thought...IE..sola scriptora" then who we read, who we let preach, whose ideas we take on will eventually own us.

 Lesson #8 speaks of what has happened to God's people through the ages...including us....We as a people have been greatly influenced by "secular norms (culture), analogy (human parables that have come from imaginations effected by sin) and causation (cause and effect....the means justifies the end...which by the way is nothing more than manipulation...which is a species of lying). Please, remember this last statement here is made  in the light of "not using biblical principles to make decisions verses human rational, lest I be misunderstood.

We live in the last arena before the 2nd/coming...not a good time to have those who have not been "settled into the Truth as it is in Christ" to preach from the pulpit I would think. Seems this could lend to more confusion...as if we need more of that.

It was my understanding God teaches us "His doctrinal propositions" to help us effectively enlarge our understanding of Himself. Not that we would want to evaluate one's salvation because they are "not SDAs'....(or because they "are" SDAs')...or to ignore the presence of The Holy Spirit in their lives.....

I won't touch your statements about your views of conservatives/liberals  with some very distasteful attributes as you see them.

I would think that the condition of our hearts either "allows or not allows" us to "do, read, go, participate, eat, hear or see" whatever comes to us in life. Our hearts have everything to do with what we "are, or are not" becoming.  I respectfully disagree that this passage in Early Writings has nothing to do with this thread.  All of the variables of the condition of our hearts, has to do with our lives...IE..again, what we "think, do see, read...etc...and the like.

Again, in reference to your paragraph referencing "Hiding their deformity"...etc....for all of us has to do with the condition of our hearts...me included.  I am not sure where you are going here.

The next statement "Pleasing fable"....please explain your intent...sorry, I am not following you well. But, am I incorrect to think that if I am like the world around me...how I think, how I live, where I go, how I eat, how I dress has "nothing" to do with my relationship to Christ?  Or have I misunderstood you?  It would seem to me how I look on the outside is a window to how I am on the inside.    Obviously, if I am a prostitute..I want the "johns" to know that.....(a loose analogy I am sure, but it makes the point I believe). I am not trying to be offensive....

I am taken by your judgements of people...however, God says we are to be "fruit inspectors"...I do hope that privilege you are taking is extended to us all...

God's Blessings'
Deborah   :-)










Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 02, 2009, 02:25:04 PM
I'm going to break my reply to this up into a couple of parts.

Hello Slingshot...to start, I hope you took what I said in my post with humor.(a slingshot named David)...there was no intent to offend.  Just trying to be friendly with some humor.

No offense taken.

Probably most of us on this forum read SDA and non-SDA materials. I do not see that as an issue. Let each decide for himself.

Agreed.

Having said all this....in response to reading The Shack..I don't know of the book, but, if I had to read "every book" to make it "fair" to make any statement..."ever" is not fessable.

I agree that criticism of a book without reading it is not feasible. That was, in fact, my point: How can you make a "fair" statement regarding any book unless you've read it? It seems to me that if one hasn't read a book, the only fair thing to do is to reserve judgment within reason. I add "within reason" because one doesn't have to read The Satanic Bible to know that it runs counter to the Bible.

Concerning my statement about "reference points" I think is valid.  Our reference points....those principles of recommendations from which we weigh out and make our judgment calls, is a make or break proprosition for each of us.

Equating the SS lesson #8 and the reference from Early Writings "The Church and the World United" explains why we have these differences in thought.  All decisions that take place in the mind...all actions that become follow through due to the way we think has everything to do with this thread....

When we leave "sound Biblical thought...IE..sola scriptora" then who we read, who we let preach, whose ideas we take on will eventually own us.

Not necessarily. The Scripture is the standard. Paul wrote: "Test everything. Hold fast to that which is good." He did not write: "Read only those things with which you already agree." And how can we know if something agrees with the Scripture -- "is good" -- unless we read it?

 Lesson #8 speaks of what has happened to God's people through the ages...including us....We as a people have been greatly influenced by "secular norms (culture), analogy (human parables that have come from imaginations effected by sin) and causation (cause and effect....the means justifies the end...which by the way is nothing more than manipulation...which is a species of lying). Please, remember this last statement here is made  in the light of "not using biblical principles to make decisions verses human rational, lest I be misunderstood.

I think I follow you here.....

Part two of my reply follows.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 02, 2009, 02:54:25 PM

We live in the last arena before the 2nd/coming...not a good time to have those who have not been "settled into the Truth as it is in Christ" to preach from the pulpit I would think. Seems this could lend to more confusion...as if we need more of that.


It was my understanding God teaches us "His doctrinal propositions" to help us effectively enlarge our understanding of Himself.

Agreed, if the doctrines are rightly understood. But understanding doctrine does not necessarily translate into a knowledge of God. Jesus said that he would have tell miracle-performing "Christians" that He "never knew" them.  You can act like a Christian and not really be one.

I won't touch your statements about your views of conservatives/liberals  with some very distasteful attributes as you see them.

You have misunderstood me and do me a bit of a disservice.  I was not attributing anything to conservatives or liberals as a group. I do not have a problem with conservatives. The Church needs them. I do not have a problem with liberals. The Church needs them. .

My point was that in the passage you cited Ellen White was discussing people who seem pious but whose characters and conduct turn off nonbelievers. She wrote that if the truth were revealed and their pious facade were stripped bare, people would be appalled at what these hypocrites are really like. I specifically stated that this condition was true of both liberals and conservatives. Indeed, my point was not that it is an ideological problem -- it's a human problem.

I would think that the condition of our hearts either "allows or not allows" us to "do, read, go, participate, eat, hear or see" whatever comes to us in life. Our hearts have everything to do with what we "are, or are not" becoming.  I respectfully disagree that this passage in Early Writings has nothing to do with this thread.  All of the variables of the condition of our hearts, has to do with our lives...IE..again, what we "think, do see, read...etc...and the like.

I agree with you about our hearts. But I'm not sure exactly what you're saying otherwise. Maybe we're talking past each other a bit.

You seemed to be suggesting that our abandonement of Scripture, as you perceived it, was the fulfilliment of the EW passage. I disagree with that. Ellen White was not referring to people with faulty theology in their libraries. She was writing about people who seem pious but whose actions turn people away from Christ (and again, I do not think one can reasonably say that this refers to one's library -- she is talking about people who are mean, judgmental, or who have other disagreeable character traits that give Christ a bad name among non-believers).  

Could reading bad theology lead to such a condition? I suppose it could. I think it much more likely that such a condition is more a result of an unconverted heart and less the result of "contamination" from reading Rick Warren.


Again, in reference to your paragraph referencing "Hiding their deformity"...etc....for all of us has to do with the condition of our hearts...me included.  I am not sure where you are going here.

That paragraph was actually a quote from the Early Writings passage with some of my thoughts bracketed inside it. Forgot to put quotation marks up! Sorry 'bout that.

The next statement "Pleasing fable"....please explain your intent...sorry, I am not following you well. But, am I incorrect to think that if I am like the world around me...how I think, how I live, where I go, how I eat, how I dress has "nothing" to do with my relationship to Christ?  Or have I misunderstood you?  It would seem to me how I look on the outside is a window to how I am on the inside.    Obviously, if I am a prostitute..I want the "johns" to know that.....(a loose analogy I am sure, but it makes the point I believe). I am not trying to be offensive....

I am taken by your judgements of people...however, God says we are to be "fruit inspectors"...I do hope that privilege you are taking is extended to us all...

I am not judging people. I did not write about anyone in particular or have anyone particular in mind when I wrote. I specifically stated that the condition that Ellen White described crosses ideological lines and encompasses both liberals and conservatives. I am not trying to do a hit job on conservatives or anyone else. I apologize if I was unclear and that appeared to be my intent.

God's Blessings'

And to you.  :-)
Deborah   :-)











Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on March 02, 2009, 04:02:55 PM
How about you explain newbie's quote to Slingshot instead?  :wink:
It's self explanatory.  Any one studying the Bible and reading SOP would recognize such.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on March 02, 2009, 07:43:02 PM
Hmm...ej, Perhaps a simple, 'I think it's pretty self explanatory, don't you?' might have sufficed. Instead, even in your reply to me, you seem to continue along a condescending vein. I'm sure you didn't intend it to sound that way, but it did.

No harm, no foul. I've said some things in my time that didn't come across well.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 02, 2009, 07:46:12 PM
Slingshot..in response to your post, I will hope to be brief...in saying that, my response will be in the frame of mind of the biblical principle "as you behold, you become" .....  the "stuff" we read, view, ingest in any venue will eventually stick and will determine our eternal destination.

from part 1

I believe your intelligence exceeds mine, and because of that, I think you knew what I meant when made the statement "if I had to read "every book" to make it "fair" to make any statement..."ever" is not feasible.  You responded "I agree that criticism of a book without reading it is not feasible." You and I disagree on what I meant...  If we read every book laid at our feet, there would be not time or energy to put into our relationship with what is most important...finding God through Scripture."

I reserve the right to decide what is worthy or not to read by virtue of, who the author is...who publishes the book..subject matter...theological positions...etc....I reserve the right for you also.  There is no reason to be critical that some choose differently.

Your response to my statement "When we leave "sound Biblical thought.....IE sola scriptora" then who we read, who we let preach, whose ideas we take on will eventually own us."...I fine interesting.   We want our children to pick friends we approve of "because" we know kids pick up eachothers likeness....that is fact.  Just like us adults...who we chose to read become our companions.  If I enjoy an author, and read allot of their writings...I in a sense make them my friend and spend time with them....listening to them, taking on their views and attitudes.

When I find the views of those I'm reading differ than Scripture (which is the mind of Christ for all intent and purpose), then I should choose wisely how much of their mind I want to adopt. Everything I take in either works in harmony or against the biblical principles God is trying to instill in me and you.  Again.."as you behold, you become."

If you are reading from an author that you know has views that are not biblical...we should be very careful...especially when promoting their writings to others who could fall prey to erroneous ideas that could lead away from Truth as it is in Christ. Who wants to have that to face in the judgment?

It is interesting the response to my statement about "His doctrinal propositions".......   "Agreed, if the doctrines are rightly understood..etc..."...if you believe this, then why have someone speak from an Adventist pulpit that has wrong views of biblical theology?  IE ...state of the dead, 2nd/coming, Sabbath, Sanctuary......why allow that, if there is a concern of "having correct views?"

We christians have indeed hurt the reputation of Jesus...I gring looking back at myself...even now....the mistakes I make.  The "foot in the mouth thing" is too familiar for me....however, this attack of Satan on the doctrines and people of God and Satan's success toward broken humanity, does not change the message given in the passage of Early Writings. We adventists are too attached to the world...it has rubbed off and it shows....sorry to say.  Whether the "world" is found in what we read, what movies we watch, places we go, attitudes we adopt....If we look, sound, act, live more like those who have not excepted Christ...than the message in Early Writings is for us.

Hiding their deformity.etc.....as the passage says...let me ask...if I preach Sabbath keeping and publicly not keep Sabbath, not guard the edges of the Sabbath...does this not give occasion for the unbeliever to reproach Christ?  If I claim to love Christ and not cling to the lifestyle He has asked of His people...does that not give occasion for the unbeliever to reproach Christ?

In rereading the passage...she is clear as to hold the devil caught God's people in his web...to be more like the world than like Christ.
Speaking of the church  "As he (devil) prevailed on the church to receive favors and honors from the world, under the pretense of receiving benefits, she began to lose favor with God. Shunning to declare the straight truths which shut out the lovers of pleasure and friends of the world, she gradually lost her power."   This is why God said He did not recognize them as His.  Where is she talking about people who are mean, judgmental, or who have other disagreeable character traits that you have stated?

Is there something you are wanting to say about Rick Warren since you brought him up? 

Well, this is very instructive....

God's Blessings' to you,
Deborah   :wink:

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 03, 2009, 05:50:58 AM
I'll break my response into two parts again.
Slingshot..in response to your post, I will hope to be brief...in saying that, my response will be in the frame of mind of the biblical principle "as you behold, you become" .....  the "stuff" we read, view, ingest in any venue will eventually stick and will determine our eternal destination.

from part 1

I believe your intelligence exceeds mine, and because of that, I think you knew what I meant when made the statement "if I had to read "every book" to make it "fair" to make any statement..."ever" is not feasible.  You responded "I agree that criticism of a book without reading it is not feasible." You and I disagree on what I meant...  If we read every book laid at our feet, there would be not time or energy to put into our relationship with what is most important...finding God through Scripture."

I reserve the right to decide what is worthy or not to read by virtue of, who the author is...who publishes the book..subject matter...theological positions...etc....I reserve the right for you also.  There is no reason to be critical that some choose differently.

Nothing could be further from my position. If you've read this thread, then you've seen that I have consistently maintained that people should be free to read, or not to read, as they are personally convinced. My point was that although you are certainly free to think whatever you like regarding a book that you have not read, to publicly criticize a book or author with whom you are personally unfamiliar is not fair to the author. I never suggested that you have read everything laid at your feet. I am suggesting that if you have not read a particular book it is unfair to criticize its author.   

Your response to my statement "When we leave "sound Biblical thought.....IE sola scriptora" then who we read, who we let preach, whose ideas we take on will eventually own us."...I fine interesting.   We want our children to pick friends we approve of "because" we know kids pick up eachothers likeness....that is fact.  Just like us adults...who we chose to read become our companions.  If I enjoy an author, and read allot of their writings...I in a sense make them my friend and spend time with them....listening to them, taking on their views and attitudes.

I agree with that. The question I have is this: Do you agree with your friends about everything? If you disagree with them about something do you break off the relationship? Paul and Peter certainly disagreed. Paul and Silas disagreed. Yet God used them all. There is no evidence that they broke off communications with one another because they feared becoming changed by that communication.

When I find the views of those I'm reading differ than Scripture (which is the mind of Christ for all intent and purpose), then I should choose wisely how much of their mind I want to adopt. Everything I take in either works in harmony or against the biblical principles God is trying to instill in me and you.  Again.."as you behold, you become."

If you are reading from an author that you know has views that are not biblical...we should be very careful...especially when promoting their writings to others who could fall prey to erroneous ideas that could lead away from Truth as it is in Christ. Who wants to have that to face in the judgment?

Two thoughts come to mind here. First, if a person read only those things with which they totally, 100% agree, then they will certainly become more and more entrenched in their views. If there is an area in which they are wrong, they will be less and less likely to recognize their mistake because they have, in a sense, indoctrinated themselves. The Pharisees are a good example of this sort of mindset: They just knew they were right. They discarded all evidence to the contrary because their worldview was so deeply ingrained. This sort of close-mindedness was certainly not Ellen White's practice.

My second thought is this: I don't recommend every book that I've read to my friends. Nor, on the other hand, do I want to adopt the attitude that I'm a sort of gatekeeper and can determine what is "safe" for people to read or hear. Some sanctified common sense will go a long way in this regard, I believe. Freedom is best.


Part two of my response follows.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 03, 2009, 06:18:03 AM
This is the second part of my response.
It is interesting the response to my statement about "His doctrinal propositions".......   "Agreed, if the doctrines are rightly understood..etc..."...if you believe this, then why have someone speak from an Adventist pulpit that has wrong views of biblical theology?  IE ...state of the dead, 2nd/coming, Sabbath, Sanctuary......why allow that, if there is a concern of "having correct views?"

My point about a correct understanding of doctrine had to more to do with keeping doctrine in its rightful perspective than in being in agreement with every Adventist doctrine. My point, I believe, was that simply knowing doctrine is not really the issue. Ellen White said that in her day 1 in 20 Adventists would be saved. They knew the doctrine so that's obviously not the main problem.

As to non-Adventists speaking in our churches, I haven't really addressed that question. For what it's worth, I think it depends upon the situation.  


We christians have indeed hurt the reputation of Jesus...I gring looking back at myself...even now....the mistakes I make.  The "foot in the mouth thing" is too familiar for me....however, this attack of Satan on the doctrines and people of God and Satan's success toward broken humanity, does not change the message given in the passage of Early Writings.

We adventists are too attached to the world...it has rubbed off and it shows....sorry to say.  Whether the "world" is found in what we read, what movies we watch, places we go, attitudes we adopt....If we look, sound, act, live more like those who have not excepted Christ...than the message in Early Writings is for us.

Hiding their deformity.etc.....as the passage says...let me ask...if I preach Sabbath keeping and publicly not keep Sabbath, not guard the edges of the Sabbath...does this not give occasion for the unbeliever to reproach Christ?  If I claim to love Christ and not cling to the lifestyle He has asked of His people...does that not give occasion for the unbeliever to reproach Christ?

What you're saying might be true but I don't think that's the best reading of the particular passage that we're discussing. The focus there is on things that are hidden. The people Ellen White is describing talk a good game and even appear to be pious but their hearts are rotten. Most people don't know what Sabbath keeping is about and would have no idea if one were guarding its edges or not. But they can recognize someone with an unkind heart when they see one. Let me be clear: The things you say about Sabbath observance may be an issue but they are not, in my opinion, what Ellen White is discussing in this passage.

In rereading the passage...she is clear as to hold the devil caught God's people in his web...to be more like the world than like Christ.

And what is the world like? Paul wrote that we do not wage war as the world does. Do we follow the principles of I Cor. 13? Matthew 18? Has that been your experience in the Church? A person can keep the Sabbath and guard its edges perfectly and do none of these things. And if a person is careful with whom they pick their fights and how they do it, they can sit in a church forever and all will think they are great christians. Just like the people that Ellen White wrote about. That is being like the world. That is what turns non-Christians off.

Speaking of the church  "As he (devil) prevailed on the church to receive favors and honors from the world, under the pretense of receiving benefits, she began to lose favor with God. Shunning to declare the straight truths which shut out the lovers of pleasure and friends of the world, she gradually lost her power."   This is why God said He did not recognize them as His.  Where is she talking about people who are mean, judgmental, or who have other disagreeable character traits that you have stated?

Is there something you are wanting to say about Rick Warren since you brought him up? 

No. I used him as an example since he seems to be a sort of all-purpose boogey man for everything wrong with Christianity.

Well, this is very instructive....

I'm not quite sure what to make of this. I am not trying to be instructive or to speak for anyone other than myself or to imply anything that I have not said. I hope that neither you nor anyone else has read into my comments anything that is not there.

God's Blessings' to you,
Deborah   :wink:

And to you, Deborah.  :-)

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 03, 2009, 07:37:54 AM
Hello, hello Slingshot..........To close this conversation...I have found it to be great and enjoyable !!!!

I take no issue that our perspectives are different..that is how we learn and have opportunity to see through eachother's eyes.

 I appreciate that... thank you for the exchange !!!

God's Blessings' to You,
Deborah :lol:
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 03, 2009, 10:27:59 AM
Hello, hello Slingshot..........To close this conversation...I have found it to be great and enjoyable !!!!

I take no issue that our perspectives are different..that is how we learn and have opportunity to see through eachother's eyes.

 I appreciate that... thank you for the exchange !!!

God's Blessings' to You,
Deborah :lol:

You're very welcome. Thanks and blessings to you as well.  :-)

SS
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on March 03, 2009, 01:10:26 PM
wo thoughts come to mind here. First, if a person read only those things with which they totally, 100% agree, then they will certainly become more and more entrenched in their views. If there is an area in which they are wrong, they will be less and less likely to recognize their mistake because they have, in a sense, indoctrinated themselves. The Pharisees are a good example of this sort of mindset: They just knew they were right. They discarded all evidence to the contrary because their worldview was so deeply ingrained. This sort of close-mindedness was certainly not Ellen White's practice.

Yes very true. It is easy to guard against what one deems as 'apostasy' so much that they begin to focus their thoughts and energies inward to themselves, and create their own little theological island where nothing is to penetrate it. The Pharisees were masters at this and something we must guard against as much as slipping into the secular world.  Soon, nothing they believe is considered 'wrong' and they cannot be convinced otherwise. Again, this is why it is so difficult to speak to a JW in trying to convince them of any error they may believe.

I believe that this same mindset is firmly entrenched in many Adventists who insist that they are the 'maintainers of the status quo' of what should and shouldn't be believed in Adventism. To me this is as dangerous as those who say 'anything goes' and toss everything on the wayside.

We must guard against both sides of extremism.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 03, 2009, 03:04:09 PM
During the 1888 General Conference meeting in which Jones and Waggonner made their righteousness by faith presentations, and met with stiff resistence from the "old guard," Ellen White was most disturbed by what she saw as the separation into two parties. Although she agreed wholeheartedly with the righteousness by faith message, she had stern rebukes for both sides because of their antagonistic attitudes. And the fallout from the fight between the"two parties" continues to this day.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 03, 2009, 03:27:20 PM
Hello,hello...

Just my thoughts here...it seems that when the Israelites ventured out they took on the characteristics of the tribes around them....if the stayed to themselves they had their noses in the air and didn't want to be contaminated by the world.....at least this is "my" description of what I hear.  Not necessarily from those on this forum.

I hope we could give Adventists a bit of a break.  Many people live in fear....They fear for their children.and their grandchildren....they fear for churches, they fear for their own sanity....I have some of those characteristics myself.  I try to let the Lord keep me balanced, however I am not balanced as I would like to be.

It seems easy to beat up on adventists..but ... it seems to me (a convert to this great faith and the God Who heads it up) .they carry a heartfelt weight of Truth others have not excepted.  With that....they carry the burden of "sucking up" the "disdain" of much of the Christian community, not to mention those ex-adventists with their bitterness....not to forget their suffering of separation from family and friends that think their loved one (who has excepted the adventist message), has lost their mind, to join a bunch of strange people and then have the gual to call themselves "Christian" when their new found church does not look like the Sunday keeping church down the street.  (That by the way was a "run on sentence") hhhe eheeee

I don't think most adventist wake up in the morning and say.."I will be a good pharisee today"  contrary to popular belief. I do think many get up "hoping" they can be good Seventh-Day Adventist Christians though, and at the same time, struggle with the guilt of knowing they are not what they probably really need to be.

I think there is a whole psychology to "being and Adventist Christian."  It takes time to reconcile the dynamics of entering into a walk of life that "in of its self" has many twists and turns, and is greatly against the norm.

Sorry, I am a bit off topic.

God's Blessings'
Deborah  :-)


 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on March 03, 2009, 04:23:56 PM

I don't think most adventist wake up in the morning and say.."I will be a good pharisee today"  contrary to popular belief. I do think many get up "hoping" they can be good Seventh-Day Adventist Christians though, and at the same time, struggle with the guilt of knowing they are not what they probably really need to be.


No they may not (though I think some come pretty close), but this is the danger. Like the gradual, slippery slope to liberalism, the Pharisaical mindset can be comfortably and unknowingly adopted. The beliefs of our church that we are the 'remnant' and have the writings of a prophet to guide us can make others think that we have 'all the truth' and the 'only correct interpretation of the scriptures', which fosters an elitist, and uncompromising attitude. Such thinking can cause one to withdraw into themselves and their faith like some sort of commune, usually under the argument to 'shut out the world'.
This is done to protect oneself from deviant views or bad influence.

Though I think we all need to put up some sort of vanguards against the world to protect our faith, we must be careful to avoid this almost 'cultic' mindset. To become Pharisaical in nature  will only alienate others further and close our minds and to further truths or the possiblity that our cherished views may indeed be wrong. Again, try and convince a JW using the Bible that their views are wrong...You will have a tough time crossing the moat to the island.

As EGW says:

Quote
"There is no excuse for anyone taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation."

"We are living in perilous times, and it does not become us to accept everything claimed to be truth without examining it thoroughly; neither can we afford to reject anything that bears the fruits of the Spirit of God; but we should be teachable, meek and lowly of heart. There are those who oppose everything that is not in accordance with their own ideas, and by so doing they endanger their eternal interest as verily as did the Jewish nation in their rejection of Christ." (Ellen White, Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 33-42.)

This is pretty hard to do when one is so fully convinced that everything they believe is the truth that further examination or discussion with others who present differing arguments is spurned away with a Pharisaical attitude of "I have the truth, you have nothing further to offer me."

Is it not this discussion and searching that causes us to avoid what Sister White warns against?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 03, 2009, 05:24:56 PM
So, connect the dots for me....

Numbers 15:32-26    story of a man picking up sticks on Sabbath and is condemed to death "by God."

I am just trying to see how we are to "reason" these things out....IE  having a non-SDA pastor preach from the pulpit in a SDA Church... I'm open to listening...

Thanks,
God's Blessings',
Deborah   :-)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Jim on March 03, 2009, 05:52:17 PM
guibox,  I'm very aware of that statement by Mrs. White about new light. However, I'm wondering.... do you think God that would bring new light into His last day church via another denomination?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on March 03, 2009, 05:55:41 PM
guibox,  I'm very aware of that statement by Mrs. White about new light. However, I'm wondering.... do you think God that would bring new light into His last day church via another denomination?

That's not my point. My point is that we can create a mindset that will automatically reject this opportunity instead of using our intellect to sift and glean what we can. It's not necessarily a matter of 'new light'. It can be a matter of changing perspective on something already 'cherished', or to look at something in a different way; even a fruther epiphany on something already held dear. As I said before, I've NEVER seen Psalm 23 in the light it was presented by Phillip Keller. It not only brought me closer to Christ, it opened up completely new doors on how to look at Psalm 23 that were just missing from my point of view looking at other hashed out interpretations of it that all said the same thing and which were previously glossed over.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on March 03, 2009, 06:02:27 PM
So, connect the dots for me....
Numbers 15:32-26    story of a man picking up sticks on Sabbath and is condemed to death "by God."
I am just trying to see how we are to "reason" these things out....IE  having a non-SDA pastor preach from the pulpit in a SDA Church... I'm open to listening...


Why do speakers who come have to be speaking on doctrinal matters? If there is a specific topic that doesn't involve the possible negation of Adventist dogma, why not let someone who may be an expert or have a special insight on that topic to speak? Why do we assume that as soon as we put a non-SDA in the pulpit that they will automatically tear down SOP, the Sabbath and the state of the dead?

Use discernment...yes. But don't let paranoia dictate us to put our head in the sand when we can glean something from a non-controversial speaker who will not negate our special beliefs?

For example, I think it would be great to bring in a Sabbatarian or even another Jew to talk about how they observe and view the Sabbath. Why not bring a counselor in to talk about Christian relationships between a husband and wife?

If you say, 'Why can't we bring in someone from our own denomination who can speak on the Sabbath and relationships?' then I ask 'Why?' If they are offering the same opinion doesn't this come across as 'Let's keep it in the family'?

This then isn't about 'protecting our beliefs' anymore. It is being elitist for the sake of being elitist.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Jim on March 03, 2009, 06:11:25 PM
guibox,  like I said in an earlier post. Reading at home in your privacy is a totally different matter than inviting people people to share the pulpit on Sabbath morning. I'm not even sure how you could be begin to compare the two.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on March 03, 2009, 06:45:16 PM
Why do speakers who come have to be speaking on doctrinal matters?
I'm wondering, could you make a list of topics taught from the Bible that don't relate to doctrinal matters?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Slingshot on March 03, 2009, 07:34:12 PM
Hello,hello...

Just my thoughts here...it seems that when the Israelites ventured out they took on the characteristics of the tribes around them....if the stayed to themselves they had their noses in the air and didn't want to be contaminated by the world.....at least this is "my" description of what I hear.  Not necessarily from those on this forum.

I hope we could give Adventists a bit of a break.  Many people live in fear....They fear for their children.and their grandchildren....they fear for churches, they fear for their own sanity....I have some of those characteristics myself.  I try to let the Lord keep me balanced, however I am not balanced as I would like to be.

I get scared sometimes too. Like anger, fear can be a useful servant but is a very poor master. Think of Jesus' words: " Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom." Also, "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father." God is no one to be afraid of and in God we have nothing to be afraid of.

It seems easy to beat up on adventists..but ... it seems to me (a convert to this great faith and the God Who heads it up) .they carry a heartfelt weight of Truth others have not excepted.  With that....they carry the burden of "sucking up" the "disdain" of much of the Christian community, not to mention those ex-adventists with their bitterness....not to forget their suffering of separation from family and friends that think their loved one (who has excepted the adventist message), has lost their mind, to join a bunch of strange people and then have the gual to call themselves "Christian" when their new found church does not look like the Sunday keeping church down the street.  (That by the way was a "run on sentence") hhhe eheeee

I don't think most adventist wake up in the morning and say.."I will be a good pharisee today"  contrary to popular belief. I do think many get up "hoping" they can be good Seventh-Day Adventist Christians though, and at the same time, struggle with the guilt of knowing they are not what they probably really need to be.

Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound.
I think there is a whole psychology to "being and Adventist Christian."  It takes time to reconcile the dynamics of entering into a walk of life that "in of its self" has many twists and turns, and is greatly against the norm.

Sorry, I am a bit off topic.

No apologies necessary.

God's Blessings'
Deborah  :-)

And to you, Deborah.


 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 03, 2009, 09:03:39 PM
guibox..

Not trying to hurt you...please, I am wanting to inderstand your thinking...

What do you think of the reference from Numbers?  It does not appear that God was being flexable in anyway...

It is my understanding that the Pharisees distorted and "added" to God's "words" for His people, IE... which made Sabbath (as an example, a case in point)a terrible burden...  how do we reconcile this?

It would appear to me, these are some of the dilemmas SDAs' face and have to work out biblically, thoughtfully, even emotionally since so many of God's principles don't really make sense to the "human mind" that has been damaged by sin.

It can be more intimidating to try and wrestle out these issues with Christ than to listen to a non-SDA pastor in the pulpit who really can't challenge us to do what God has asked biblically "because" he has not excepted the biblical challenge himself.

Slingshot,

 I appreciate your words...as you say, we need not be afraid of God..so true.  "That" is a learned response "to" God that He builds in us as we walk with Him...However, when you have children, teens, young adults...parents, loved ones, friends who show little response toward His kindness...the devil uses this against us...IE our thoughts, feelings and emotions.

It is a gift from Christ that He works this fear out of us...the struggle must ensue...it must be engaged with the Holy Spirit ...it is part of the Sanctification process...but lets' be honest...it can be slow and painful.

I have found (an not criticism here, only observation) that many put off engaging the painful part of the spiritual warfare (giving ourselves completely to Christ, myself included on many fronts) which plays to the devil's pleasure....Now I know it is still part of the process, but, the longer we stretch out the avoidance of facing those issues God want to help us work out...the more room there is to build anger, frustration, confusion....some get so tired, it is easier to give in where there may be some great dangers to their salvation.

These are my evaluations....I am not claiming they are true for all people. Obviously "God is able"...however.....the human heart "must be won" to Christ or they will be lost....and we know through scripture......many, many, many will be lost.

I believe these and many other factors are why it is not helpful the have those ministers who are not of our faith preach....even though they may be very nice christian people....why open the "tender shoots" of God's church open to temptation to down play what God has made clear by raising up this precious church for the latter days?

A loose analogy if I may....My son is a  life guard....would you want a person who has not yet passed their life guarding test to be the guard over a summing pool...but not really be prepared to do some serious work to help someone in trouble?  We would not consider it...the stakes are too high. 

I have found coming into the church (again, and observation...not a criticism)...few of us truly believe God will leave us behind....most do not think in those terms....God has the right to protect His home IE....."Eternity".  That is where He lives...He wants us there too...BUT, He "will" protect His family.(those who have never fallen)..from those  of us who He know will fail...even though we don't believe we ever will.  That is why He is the Judge...What we "believe" about ourselves and what He "knows" about us are "most of the time" very, very different.  Jeremiah reminds us of our heart's condition............

Christ say..."And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell"   

I think I can understand why we in the church have some differences...I pray we each will allow God to work all this out in each of us and bring us together.

God Keep Us All,
Deborah 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on March 04, 2009, 05:51:18 AM
Deborah

You do such a better job of putting into kind and loving words the importance of this topic.  Thank you so much.

I loath to read and write long posts, so that doesn't help the cause much.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on March 04, 2009, 06:39:15 AM
I'm wondering, could you make a list of topics taught from the Bible that don't relate to doctrinal matters?

ej, the biggest reason why there is apprehension or plain old rejection of non-SDAs preaching from our pulpit is that they will preach 'another gospel' where distinctive SDA doctrinal beliefs may be contradicted. If an expert on David or some other bible writer could give a great expose on their life there wouldn't be much of a problem. However, to bring the president of the First Day Alliance club inwould bring much cause for alarm.

A loose analogy if I may....My son is a  life guard....would you want a person who has not yet passed their life guarding test to be the guard over a summing pool...but not really be prepared to do some serious work to help someone in trouble?  We would not consider it...the stakes are too high.

But if there was an off duty lifeguard swimming in the pool that had much more qualifications and experience than the actual life guard on duty, I'd be more than happy to hand over the reins to him to get the job done.

If my theme I want to have preached on is the life of David who should I get? Dear little old, Bill the elder who enjoys reading the Psalms and stammers his way through the sermon or the local Baptist preacher who's doctoral dissertation was on the life of David? Must we sacrifice quality for exclusivism?

All I'm saying is that in some instances, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with someone other than an SDA coming in to  preach. Discernment and common sense must be exercised, yes, but to flat outright reject the concept for fear of being 'tainted', smacks of Pharisaical eltism in my opinion.

And jus to show that I'm not picking on a specific group in our church like the conservatives, we have a 'celebration' church in our area that does the same thing...just on the other end. They will rarely (unless they are properly screened first) allow someone of a more conservative belief system in our church come to preach lest they preach against the more liberal views this church holds.

I find this equally as disturbing.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 04, 2009, 11:14:24 AM
guibox...

     Well, I believe the analogy I gave is different than the analogy you gave...however...there is a difference in how close to the line in the road one is willing to drive...I admit I am not willing to go where are are...that is okay.  We  have a difference of opinion...

If you and sat on the same church board...we would cancel out eachother's vote.

Someday, when we are together in eternity reviewing this conversation...we will both see what we don't see right now....a good thing to look forward to.

God's Blessings'
Deborah  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: guibox on March 04, 2009, 01:49:41 PM
guibox...
I admit I am not willing to go where are are...that is okay.  We  have a difference of opinion...
If you and sat on the same church board...we would cancel out eachother's vote.

And I would have no problem with our votes canceling out...but you better have a good explanation for voting the way you do!  :wink:
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on March 04, 2009, 04:39:46 PM
Will do good buddy !!!!   hhhe eheheeee, I always wanted to say something like that !!!!

God's Blessings'
Deborah  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 22, 2009, 11:06:39 PM
I know that this thread has run its course but I just ran across something interesting that was quoted from  "Our Firm Foundation", one of the most conservative SDA publications there are, and this is from Samuel Pipim listening to Carlyle B. Haynes discuss pulpit preaching and using G. Campbell Morgan as an example of great pulpit preaching.  You can learn a lot more about Morgan at this link:

http://www.gcampbellmorgan.net/

I am sure to some who have written on this thread, Morgan would be your typical "Babylonian" preacher.

But read what Pipim and Haynes had to say about preaching.  First Pipim sets the scene with an example of WHAT SHOULD NOT BE A PART OF PULPIT PREACHING:

The Foolishness of Preaching, Not the Preaching of Foolishness
The clear proclamation of God's Word has always been the most
effective method of communicating God's truth. Because this method
went contrary to the gospel gimmicks of his day, the apostle Paul
referred to it as "the foolishness of preaching" 1 Corinthians 1:21.
Evangelist Carlyle B. Haynes has aptly illustrated the difference
between preaching centered on the Word of God and preaching using the
worldly method.


Gospel Gimmicks

Speaking to young ministers several decades ago, Haynes wrote:
"I once attended a meeting conducted by a well-known evangelist who
had achieved an outstanding reputation, and whom many younger
ministers were consulting for suggestions to improve their work. Some
were diligently copying this man's manner of presentation. I had been
out of the country for five years in mission work. Reports came to me
regarding this man, who was looked upon as a successful winner of
souls. His methods, which were certainly innovations among us, were
the subject of much discussion.

"I was eager to get a firsthand look at this man and his techniques.
My appointments brought me to the city where he was conducting an
evangelistic campaign, and I made plans to hear and observe him in
action. Mingling with the large number of people streaming into the
meetings, I sat in the middle of the audience, where I could see and
hear without difficulty. "The tabernacle was well lighted and
decorated. . . . On the rafters above the platform were hung many
lights, and on each side of the platform two spotlights centered on
the preacher.

"There was music, much music, instrumental, vocal, choral, solos,
duets, quartets, and two little tots who sang an amusing ditty which
brought a round of laughter and a handclap or two. Then came an
impressive theme song, which many seemed to know and I had never
heard. At its close the preacher entered in a sort of hush.
"He attracted everyone's attention, including mine. I was not quite
prepared for this. He could not fail to catch attention. Everything
had apparently been done with that in mind. He was dressed in spotless
white, with white tie, white socks, white shoes. Even the Bible he
carried was bound in white. A woman at my back exclaimed breathlessly
to her companion, 'Isn't he a honey?' and I had to agree. He was
indeed. From that first moment he was the focus of attraction. No one
could hear, see, or think of anything else but that 'honey' of a
preacher. His words were little noticed, yet no one moved his eyes
from the speaker, and all heads swung around with him as he stood or
moved about in the glare of the spotlights. . . .

"I didn't listen, but I certainly looked. I couldn't help looking. It
was an impressive performance. What he said, I don't know; but I can
remember yet what he did as he skillfully moved about the platform. .
.. .

"Returning to my hotel room, I tried to recall what he may have read
from the Bible. I could not remember his opening that beautiful white
Bible at all. While I am sure he must have done so, I did not notice
it. The last thing I remember passing through my mind before I sank
into slumber was, 'He certainly is a 'honey.' "
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the next post please read the contrasting description.


Stan
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 22, 2009, 11:13:51 PM
Pipim continues to describe Haynes' experience:

"Traveling about the country for some months after that, I ran into a
considerable number of white suits and spotlights. They broke out like
an epidemic everywhere. The imitation ran its course, as epidemics do,
and then subsided
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on March 23, 2009, 03:42:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------

So, Would G. Campbell Morgan be welcome to speak in an SDA pulpit?  I think so based on Sam Pipim and Carlyle B. Haynes' judgment

Stan


Good preaching does not necessarily mean that truth is being spoken.  Many of the current well-known preachers are very good, but they are not preaching truth.  I'm not passing judgment on Morgan, since I know very little about him; but what must be the criterion for anyone who steps into one of our pulpits, is whether or not they will be presenting present truth.  The vast majority of non SDA preachers will not be, and, sadly, many SDA preachers are not doing so, either.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Dora on March 23, 2009, 05:56:30 AM
Quote
Good preaching does not necessarily mean that truth is being spoken.  Many of the current well-known preachers are very good, but they are not preaching truth.  I'm not passing judgment on Morgan, since I know very little about him; but what must be the criterion for anyone who steps into one of our pulpits, is whether or not they will be presenting present truth.  The vast majority of non SDA preachers will not be, and, sadly, many SDA preachers are not doing so, either.
 
 

Raven, you are so right...just because it is a "good" presentation, does not mean it is truth, and yes, sadly, that is true even with many SDA preachers.  As I told our pastor, "It is not as much what you are preaching, (when he was taking the basics of his sermons from Saddleback) it is what you are not preaching!"  He had told me that if I heard anything unbiblical in his sermons to please tell him, because he "filtered them carefully."  I knew he would not preach blatant heresy, but neither is he bringing us present truth for these days of preparation for "a time of trouble such as never was."

But, no, a non Seventh-day-Adventist has no business standing in the pulpit of the Seventh-day-Adventist church!  It is an abomination!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on March 23, 2009, 08:28:33 AM
Good preaching does not necessarily mean that truth is being spoken.  Many of the current well-known preachers are very good, but they are not preaching truth.  I'm not passing judgment on Morgan, since I know very little about him; but what must be the criterion for anyone who steps into one of our pulpits, is whether or not they will be presenting present truth.  The vast majority of non SDA preachers will not be, and, sadly, many SDA preachers are not doing so, either.

Dora and I both agree.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 23, 2009, 08:41:01 AM
Carlyle Hayne's description of Dr. Morgan sounds very much like Haddon Robinson, a well known Evangelical preacher whose specialty is teaching preaching. I happened to see him on a Korean TV station that sometimes I get on my 3abn dish.  He was speaking to an audience apparantly made up of Korean pastors. He spoke in English and someone translated into Korean. As I recall, he is tall and gangly and his facial features are a bit asymetrical. He is old and handsome is not an adjective that would describe him. He spoke standing in one place. His voice was unremarkable and his gestures few. He preached from the Bible. He had my full attention as well as his audience. I could name several Adventist preachers who would do well to learn from him how to preach.

As far as truth, it is true, they do not have all of the truth, present truth in particular, but many of them preach that Jesus died for our sins and is our only hope for salvation. Many of them will take their stand for present truth when the issues are brought to the forefront and made clear in the political and religious world. It is counter productive to relate to pastors  and members of other denominations as though they are spiritually inferior to us. We will win very few that way. We are all sinners and are saved only by God's grace and we should beware of appearing to claim private ownership of God's kingdom.

The Seventh-day Adventist church will be presenting a series of live TV broadcasts this spring, coming up soon, (I forget the dates) that are planned to especially to attract pastors and preachers of all denominations that will include preaching by several Adventist preachers as well as certain preachers of other denominations. It should be worth watching. I don't have all the details. The information has gone out to the churches.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Jim on March 23, 2009, 08:42:35 AM
So, Would G. Campbell Morgan be welcome to speak in an SDA pulpit?  I think so based on Sam Pipim and Carlyle B. Haynes' judgment. Stan

Stan, if I were you I would not draw that conclusion so easily without actually asking Dr. Pipim. Just because he enjoyed the message doesn't mean that he'd ask him to preach at his own home church. Going to hear someone speak is a totally different matter than asking someone to preach from a Seventh-day Adventist pulpit.

Someone who doesn't believe in the 3 Angels message should not be in the pulpit.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on March 23, 2009, 09:30:38 AM
Raven, you are so right...just because it is a "good" presentation, does not mean it is truth, and yes, sadly, that is true even with many SDA preachers.  As I told our pastor, "It is not as much what you are preaching, (when he was taking the basics of his sermons from Saddleback) it is what you are not preaching!"  He had told me that if I heard anything unbiblical in his sermons to please tell him, because he "filtered them carefully."  I knew he would not preach blatant heresy, but neither is he bringing us present truth for these days of preparation for "a time of trouble such as never was."

But, no, a non Seventh-day-Adventist has no business standing in the pulpit of the Seventh-day-Adventist church!  It is an abomination!

I can identify with your experience with your pastor, Dora.  We had a pastor once who was probably the best preacher we have ever had in the 23 years I've been here; but 95% of his sermons could have been preached in a Baptist or the Methodist church without raising eyebrows.  Not that he was preaching heresy--he just wasn't preaching the Advent message, with few exceptions.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on March 23, 2009, 09:32:43 AM
Stan, if I were you I would not draw that conclusion so easily without actually asking Dr. Pipim. Just because he enjoyed the message doesn't mean that he'd ask him to preach at his own home church. Going to hear someone speak is a totally different matter than asking someone to preach from a Seventh-day Adventist pulpit.

Someone who doesn't believe in the 3 Angels message should not be in the pulpit.


Well stated, Jim.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 23, 2009, 09:43:49 AM
I can identify with your experience with your pastor, Dora.  We had a pastor once who was probably the best preacher we have ever had in the 23 years I've been here; but 95% of his sermons could have been preached in a Baptist or the Methodist church without raising eyebrows.  Not that he was preaching heresy--he just wasn't preaching the Advent message, with few exceptions.
There is a pastor in a church I use to attend who fits that description perfectly. He is still there.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 23, 2009, 10:29:00 AM
This is a little off topic. This past Sabbath one of the elders preached the sermon. The "sermon" consisted mostly in reading from an early version of "The Great Controversy." The chapter he was reading from contained words like "popery" "Romish," and was otherwise highly condemning of the RC church. There were two visitors present, both relatives of different members.

After about 25 minutes of reading that material, the elder said something like, "We know that there are many good people in the Catholic Church. etc. One of our members spoke up and said something like, I am glad you said that because my mother in law who is sitting right beside me is a  Roman Catholic and I can assure you that she is a wonderful person. That pretty much ended his 'sermon" and he stammered to a finish. Afterwards the elder told me that he thought he did a pretty good job with the sermon and the interruption. In other words, he is clueless as to what is appropriate for a sermon and that time and place are most important. The lady was a very good sport and just laughed about it. I told her that I admired her self control.

The moral of the story is that we should keep in mind that we do not know who may come on the forum to see what Seventh-day Adventists are like. Are we kind and loving Christians? Are we people that they can have a warm and friendly conversation with?
My fear is that the forum might be the first and last contact a Catholic or anyone may have with a Seventh-day Adventist. As Adventists we have a very solemn message to give. Some will hear and accept but it will not be welcomed by a majority of people. The time and place can make the difference.

BTW, the version he read from was an early version. In 1888 It was expanded and updated for the use of Colporteurs and the more derogatory terms were changed.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on March 23, 2009, 12:48:06 PM
It just seems like some of you are missing the whole point that Haynes and Pipim were making.

I am very disappointed in some of the responses to this post that came directly from "Our Firm Foundation" around May of 2006. It doesn't seem to matter to some that even the most conservative of SDAs see how much it is possible to learn from "so-called Babylonian sources".  And not only that, Haynes has read EVERY BOOK  that G Campbell Morgan published, and this is a huge library. If Morgan was preaching so much error, why was Haynes so enthralled with this guy?

Here again is Pipim quoting from Haynes regarding Morgan:

Dr. Morgan had no graces of gesture, no spectacular delivery, and no
eloquence in the usual sense. He used no charts, blackboard, pictures,
screen, or gadgets of any kind. Nothing in his talk, movements, dress,
or manner attracted attention to himself or diverted attention from
the Bible. His tremendous power was in what he did with and by the
Word of God. "I was in another world in five minutes, not because of
any elocution or oratorical ability. He talked quite casually and in a
conversational tone, reading with deep reverence and impressive
feeling the passage he was to explore. I forgot the people about me,
forgot the church, forgot the speaker, forgot everything but the
wonders of the world into which I had been led. . . ."I went home
dazed with wonder at the effectiveness of the Bible alone as the
source of great preaching. . . .

"I want to impress upon you that such preaching is wholly within the
reach of every one of you, the most powerful that any man can ever
use. Throw away your accessories, discard your gadgets and pictures,
discontinue your shows and playlets, stop relying on entertainment and
theatrical displays, and get back again to the simple, plain, powerful
exposition of the Word.

------------------------------

Notice especially the above quote:
."I went home dazed with wonder at the effectiveness of the Bible alone as the
source of great preaching. . . .



Here again is G Campbell Morgan's web site   Someone has decided to read his sermons onto mp3, so you can sample some of this for yourself at this link:

http://www.gcampbellmorgan.net/



I will tell you, Conservative Presbyterian preachers have a history of being some of the best expositors of scripture and have included the likes of Morgan and Donald Barnhouse.  I attend periodically a conservative Presbyterian church close to my home, where there is nothing but old hymns played with piano, and a preacher who does nothing but preach verse by verse from a book of the Bible, and the sermons go on for a full hour. There is power in these sermons preached by Ron Gleason, just like Pipim and Haynes noticed from G. Campbell Morgan.

Soli Deo Gloria
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on March 23, 2009, 01:27:55 PM
It just seems like some of you are missing the whole point that Haynes and Pipim were making.

I am very disappointed in some of the responses to this post that came directly from "Our Firm Foundation" around May of 2006. It doesn't seem to matter to some that even the most conservative of SDAs see how much it is possible to learn from "so-called Babylonian sources".  And not only that, Haynes has read EVERY BOOK  that G Campbell Morgan published, and this is a huge library. If Morgan was preaching so much error, why was Haynes so enthralled with this guy?


Soli Deo Gloria

I don't think we've missed the point.  The original subject of this thread was whether or not speakers from non SDA churches should be invited to preach from our pulpits.  And it goes back to the premise I (and others ) stated earlier.  The issue is truth or error.  The pulpit is a powerful medium, and great care must be taken to make sure that only truth is presented.  Too many people have a tendency to believe what they hear the preacher say.  There are few Bereans anymore.   But that's another issue.

I believe the occasion for inviting a non Adventist preacher to speak in one of our pulpits should be very rare, no matter how good he is, for the simple reason that so few of them are preaching the unvarnished truth.  Most of the preaching in the evangelical world today is a mix of truth and error.  Again, I'm not accusing Morgan of that, but he would be the exception, rather than the rule.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Jim on March 23, 2009, 02:00:59 PM
It just seems like some of you are missing the whole point that Haynes and Pipim were making.

Stan, no... we have not missed the point that you are making. But you seem to ignore the fact that preaching from the pulpit and going to listen to someone speak is a very different matter.

There a couple of non-Adventist speakers that have my respect and in some cases are preaching more effectively on Christian living standards than a majority of our own preachers. But I would never ask them to preach from my local church's pulpit. Why?? because they don't believe in the 3 Angels' Messages. For me it is as simple as that. Might they have good cd's, tapes, dvds, and books? Yes... and we have the freedom to purchase these at will.

Just because I'm a conservative doesn't meant I that I agree with everything Dr. Pipim teaches. As a matter of fact I had the opportunity to speak to him personally about something he teaches that I disagree with. He is a most gracious and humble man and has my respect but I still disagreed with him. So the fact that Dr. Pipim or any other "conservative" scholar says something doesn't mean that I follow it.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ejclark on March 23, 2009, 04:44:15 PM
Are we to preach what men say, or what the Bible says?

Since 1844, the message for the hour is the Three Angel's Messages.  It's a tough message to get right.  You have to include the love of God, but you also have to include that we are now living in the time of judgment. 

Rev 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

Of all these feel good sermons about the love of God and Jesus, most often they leave you feeling all warm and fuzzy and feeling good inside.  Where's the rebuking, chastening and repenting in that? 

I heard Ed Reid tell a story on himself one time.  He was giving a pretty good fire and brimstone from Revelation, targeting chap. 13 mostly.  Afterward, someone came up to him and said "did you know there was a catholic in the congregation today?"  Ed Reid said "okay".  The person said "you aren't concerned about what you preached on?"  Ed Reid said "If I go to a Catholic church, I will expect to hear a Catholic sermon, if I go to an Adventist church, I expect to hear an Adventist sermon.  They heard an Adventist sermon." 

We need not apologize for preaching truth.  We should be apologetic though if we preach truth harshly.  Jesus always spoke the truth.  He spoke it in love, but he always spoke truth.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on March 23, 2009, 05:17:37 PM
I think it is wise to not bash other faiths as much as possible but to speak truth from the bible and SOP is okay...  but we need to be careful.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on March 24, 2009, 11:11:43 AM
I think it is wise to not bash other faiths as much as possible but to speak truth from the bible and SOP is okay...  but we need to be careful.
Newbie, that is true. It is necessary to present the truth of the three angel's messages without watering it down, but is important to be tactful and not offensive. Doug Batchelor demonstrated that very well in the series he broadcast from the Washington DC area. "Wise and gentle" are the watchwords.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Carl on October 17, 2010, 08:04:24 AM
In our local college SDA church they had a guest speaker for the Sabbath church service.  This man was from a different denomination.  According to someone that was there in the first service he said EGW was out dated, and we needed to move on without her....during the second service this statement was left out but he still spoke.  My friend called the conference to share her concerns, they did not see a problem.  They said the church board must have voted on it etc....

How should we handle this type of thing????

When this "guest" speaker first uttered those lies about EGW, he should have been shown the door along with those who ok'd it in the first place all the way up to the GC. When Satan knocks at the door, are they so blind as to let him in, much less let him speak?

Once again, political correctness is doing it's evil deeds.

This stuff is amazing and sad that a people who should know better are being so easily deceived. How are these people supposed to withstand the final deceptions?

These poor people, so easily fooled but as prophesied.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 17, 2010, 10:20:07 PM
When this "guest" speaker first uttered those lies about EGW, he should have been shown the door along with those who ok'd it in the first place all the way up to the GC. When Satan knocks at the door, are they so blind as to let him in, much less let him speak?

Once again, political correctness is doing it's evil deeds.

This stuff is amazing and sad that a people who should know better are being so easily deceived. How are these people supposed to withstand the final deceptions?

These poor people, so easily fooled but as prophesied.
If a guest speaker is scheduled and no one knows anything about him or his theology, the speaker should be told ahead of time that the church does not allow attacks on SDA doctrines or EGW. It should be a rare occasion for a preacher to be invited without someone having some idea of their background and theology. Preachers from other denominations should never be allowed in an SDA pulpit. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Carl on October 18, 2010, 08:41:08 AM
If a guest speaker is scheduled and no one knows anything about him or his theology, the speaker should be told ahead of time that the church does not allow attacks on SDA doctrines or EGW. It should be a rare occasion for a preacher to be invited without someone having some idea of their background and theology. Preachers from other denominations should never be allowed in an SDA pulpit. 

Yes, I'm still in amazement and greatly saddened over the tremendous inroads the agencies of evil have infiltrated the SDA Church even just within the past few years.

It all began when I came upon the site EDUCATETRUTH.COM. Until then, I was confident our leaders were doing only what's right with God and the welfare of the remnant church and I held these leaders in high esteem. Boy! has my conception changed about our leaders since, (except our new pres Wilson so far), to where I don't trust most of them whatsoever as they behind the scenes, cozy up to the world to gain acceptance. (political correctness again)

As I continue to search, it goes much deeper yet as I find many if not most of the SDA churches have accepted spiritualism of varying degrees into their midst as they "progress" to a higher plane independent of God. These attacks of the devil are so obvious and even warned by God through Ellen White countless times, yet seems there's no one who questions. (would it do any good even if they did?)

Why the sudden spiritual blindness among a people who have been warned decades in advance? it's very strange, almost like something has their minds captive and that part of their brains have been wiped clean. And, this is only the beginning.

Already, it's gotten to the point where we have to talk among the "like minded" within the church.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Carl on October 18, 2010, 08:51:07 AM
OT

Larry, you need to moderate many other "SDA" forums, including ones by some of our most visible, biggest organizations where they are allowing open, vicious attacks against EGW, the SDA church and all our core beliefs. These forums where the moderator is non-existent, giving Satan free reign and control to thwart minds to evil.

I believe many of these forum attacks are from "disgruntled" or "former" SDA's, some who even followed Satan's suggestion to put up websites of evil against the SDA.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on October 18, 2010, 09:15:36 AM


Why the sudden spiritual blindness among a people who have been warned decades in advance? it's very strange, almost like something has their minds captive and that part of their brains have been wiped clean. And, this is only the beginning.

Already, it's gotten to the point where we have to talk among the "like minded" within the church.

We are Laodicea, and we are in the shaking and it will only get worse.  One time Mrs. White said something  to the effect that if things didn't improve not one in twenty (among church members) would be saved.  If that was the case in her day, can it have improved in 100 years?  We've gone from the Pharisaism of 50 years ago to Sadduceeism today.  We were just as bad off then, but we "obeyed the rules."  Now, since we can no longer figure out why we had the rules, we do whatever we want, and affirm each other with the idea that "God accepts me just the way I am."  Too many of us are unwilling to study for ourselves to know what is truth, and so we are easily deceived by every "wind of doctrine" that blows in the church window.  Sister White clearly stated that those whose minds were not fortified with the truths of the Bible would be deceived.  We're seeing it happen before our eyes, and it will only escalate and the devil's activity increases.  The quote below is enlightening because it explains why things have changed so drastically in the church over the past 40 years.

"God will arouse His people; if other means fail, heresies will come in among them, which will sift them, separating the chaff from the wheat. . . .  Believers are not to rest in suppositions and ill-defined ideas of what constitutes truth. Their faith must be firmly founded upon the word of God so that when the testing time shall come and they are brought before councils to answer for their faith they may be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them, with meekness and fear. "  5T 707
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Carl on October 18, 2010, 05:08:04 PM
We are Laodicea, and we are in the shaking and it will only get worse.  One time Mrs. White said something  to the effect that if things didn't improve not one in twenty (among church members) would be saved.  If that was the case in her day, can it have improved in 100 years?  We've gone from the Pharisaism of 50 years ago to Sadduceeism today.  We were just as bad off then, but we "obeyed the rules."  Now, since we can no longer figure out why we had the rules, we do whatever we want, and affirm each other with the idea that "God accepts me just the way I am."  Too many of us are unwilling to study for ourselves to know what is truth, and so we are easily deceived by every "wind of doctrine" that blows in the church window.  Sister White clearly stated that those whose minds were not fortified with the truths of the Bible would be deceived.  We're seeing it happen before our eyes, and it will only escalate and the devil's activity increases.  The quote below is enlightening because it explains why things have changed so drastically in the church over the past 40 years.

"God will arouse His people; if other means fail, heresies will come in among them, which will sift them, separating the chaff from the wheat. . . .  Believers are not to rest in suppositions and ill-defined ideas of what constitutes truth. Their faith must be firmly founded upon the word of God so that when the testing time shall come and they are brought before councils to answer for their faith they may be able to give a reason for the hope that is in them, with meekness and fear. "  5T 707

Yes Raven, this Laodicean condition appears to be really widespread. As I listen to people in church talk among themselves, it's amazing the lackadaisical attitude many express. As one looks at the faces in church service as vital things are being preached, many are looking half asleep, talking to one another, some even laugh as though it's some stage show, others are making goo goo eyes at each other. How can they be acting this way where Jesus and the holy angels are present? Clearly, their minds are not on God and higher things.

So sad.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on May 15, 2014, 08:49:32 AM
 We have enough problems with our own people without inviting  those to speak who clearly do not know or have not accepted present truth for the last days. We do not need to listen to their speeches in our churches in order to know what they believe

The churches in babylon do not consistently teach fundamental truth. It is interesting that the Jehovah Witnesses try to come across at the door that they accept and teach fundamental Bible truth. However, in their very writings they denounce  the literal  24 hour ,seven day creation week, "as taught by fundamental churches." Since they do not believe in a literal 24 hour a day, 7 day creation week that makes them evolutionists and new agers They clearly raise the scientific thinking of the day above the Bible. They say that science proves millions of years of evolution and they base is all off of one text that they necessarily distort the meaning of. Genesis 2:4. Of course their distorted view of this text completely throws a wrench in the gears of a great deal of other Bible. How can one rest on the Sabbath as stated in the 4th commandment if the Sabbath is a thousands years or longer ? How can one remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy if one does not even know when it begins, when it ends, and how long it lasts ? This is fodder to cause people to FORGET what God has said to REMEMBER.  This is the epitome of confusion.

There are some very nice and very open JWS ( a few) but the militant old bats come across like they have all the answers. I stopped at the JW booth at a fair last year. I was very kind but questioned them a bit. My first question was " what is the next major prophetic event to take place?" The response was " what?"  I repeated the question. It entirely threw the couple for a loop. I was not trying to be cocky but simply trying to carefully lead into a short study on prophecy. I thought they would have some kind of answer but they were stymied. The gentlemen said, " boy you go right for the jugular." I didn't think so. A witness of Jehovah should have some kind of response to that regarding the last days. We ended up in Revelation 13:11. They were pretty open since they did not know where I was coming from. Given the hits they take at their booth they were happy that someone stopped without denouncing them. I left them some literature. Since they worked shifts I stopped at other shifts and I felt was successful in getting some points across and leaving some literature. Word got around as one couple said, "oh you are the one." They really had no message to give other than we are it , join us. I am seeing that their youth are like those of most every other church. They tend not to be able  to defend their faith very well or even know it. Probably the public is so biblically illiterate and so ecumenical that it is increasingly unimportant for them to have to know their stuff. I'm sure some of the old war horses still are knowledgeable  about their error but it seems that this is slipping.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on May 15, 2014, 09:38:26 AM
There is a very consistent pattern  with those who are in favor of inviting those people speak to our people which believe in the immortal  soul and Sunday sacredness  not to mention a slew of other error.

#1 They down play or outright reject present truth.
#2 They do not think babylon exists or that we can identify it. They spiritualize it away.
#3 They hold to low standards.
#4 They are confused regarding prophecy or they side step it.
#5 They think that for God to have a true militant church is arrogant and elitism.
#6 Their experience tends to be founded on emotion and humanitarianism.
#7 They down play and often reject the Testimony of Jesus as given through EGW while uplifting those who teach and believe error.
#8 They often use a leader in the church that supports their view as evidence that settles the matter. Jones and Wagoner were powerful speakers for truth. They apostizised. Kellogg the same. Pipim was very effective in standing for truth but fell very far and we may not have seen the last of this yet with him. Many others will tumble and simply because they said or did this or that proves nothing. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ed Sutton on May 15, 2014, 06:20:34 PM
If it's a COC Pastor named Edward Fudge and the topic is Hell - he has the best exposition point by point I have heard so far, even though he stumbles over ashes and Malachi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4)

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjHVroZYpI  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjHVroZYpI)

As far as Jones & Waggoner the book "Return of the Latter Rain" is an eye opener.

  http://ellenwhiteaudio.org/pioneers/modern-works/the-return-of-the-latter-rain/  (http://ellenwhiteaudio.org/pioneers/modern-works/the-return-of-the-latter-rain/)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on May 16, 2014, 06:13:06 AM
If it's a COC Pastor named Edward Fudge and the topic is Hell - he has the best exposition point by point I have heard so far, even though he stumbles over ashes and Malachi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4)

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjHVroZYpI  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEjHVroZYpI)

As far as Jones & Waggoner the book "Return of the Latter Rain" is an eye opener.

  http://ellenwhiteaudio.org/pioneers/modern-works/the-return-of-the-latter-rain/  (http://ellenwhiteaudio.org/pioneers/modern-works/the-return-of-the-latter-rain/)

That stumbling will likely bring in other stumbling. Are there no prophets in Israel ? What would we do when a man like this  wanders off on a tangent while speaking to our people.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: sdazeal on May 16, 2014, 08:47:50 PM
So, speaking of guest speakers....tomorrow we have the famous Jack Sequeira in our pulpit. I have read different things about Mr. Sequeira, but I find it hard to believe that if his critics are correct that he is allowed to speak in our churches. Are the critics right that he rejects the sanctuary doctrine, EGW and that we have any part in our salvation...among other things?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ed Sutton on May 16, 2014, 10:13:45 PM
Had never looked him up on google for myself before - in this instance have just done so. 

We had better get all of Jones / Waggoner's - 1888 presentations and EGW's presentations on RBF and open our Bibles.

 http://www.jacksequeira.org/personalbeliefs.htm  (http://www.jacksequeira.org/personalbeliefs.htm)

Cans of worms for fish bait can sometimes hold baby snakes and not worms, or both.  As some young boys tragically discovered while fishing. (baby snakes give full venom loads when biting, some of the boys died.)

Jack Sequeira is saying that Jesus took Adam's POST fall nature, that I agree on, and that Jesus must atone for human sinful behaviour and human corrupted nature, and that He took that nature into Himself with out partaking of transgressions in the process and conquered that nature and perfected it.

The theological twisting and turning may be more convoluted and subtil than first feared, it behooves us to be rooted and grounded and ready to follow Scripture + SOP.  Since Jesus is both High priest & Judge - His Words of Scripture + SOP must settle it.   Absolutes NO suppositions.

Wm Miller supposed Earth ='s Sanctuary, innocent mistake due to supposition.   God allowed it, did not step in and change that supposition till Hiram Edson's walk across the corn field.

Theological suppositions though time 's compounding interest = big blunders, or worse yet > forks in the road.

Till the dust settles it would be wiser - to have - NO Sequeira's in the pulpit.   There is no known mandate from God to have him speak, that I know of, any one else know of any such in his case ?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: sdazeal on May 16, 2014, 11:18:02 PM
My understanding of Sequeira's beliefs is that he a kind of universalist; that you are already saved unless you consciously reject Christ and want to be lost. An interesting thought, since in a way he is correct in that people are judged according to their best light and many who do not know the name of Jesus will be saved. However, I do not think he stops there. I remember once attending a SS class taught by his son, Chris. In it, speaking of Jonah and Nineveh, Chris stated that the people of Nineveh would all have been saved even if they had not repented. I left the class and sat in my car praying and regaining my composure. :)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Raven on May 17, 2014, 04:36:15 AM
So, speaking of guest speakers....tomorrow we have the famous Jack Sequeira in our pulpit. I have read different things about Mr. Sequeira, but I find it hard to believe that if his critics are correct that he is allowed to speak in our churches. Are the critics right that he rejects the sanctuary doctrine, EGW and that we have any part in our salvation...among other things?

He came to our church back in the 90's.  I was not comfortable with the idea of his coming, since I had read one of his books (forgot which one) which had some questionable theology regarding justification.  But it was so long ago, that I can't remember much.  His sermon was on Romans, and I didn't detect any errors, but I would pay close attention to what he has to say today.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: sdazeal on May 17, 2014, 04:01:29 PM
A short review of Jack Sequeira's sermon.

Pastor Sequeira seems like a gentle and kind man. He has a pleasant smile and is very sincere. The rumor that he rejects EGW cannot be entirely true , since he read an entire page of DA to start off his sermon. He is real big on the atonement being finished at the cross for all people. His message is quite hopeful and positive, and people enjoyed it. But I can also see where the accusations against him might hold water. He did hint at a disbelief in the heavenly sanctuary altogether, putting an emphasis on Jesus' words "destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days". Thus, he believes that Jesus' body is the only temple ( or sanctuary) that exists. Thus, if the heavenly sanctuary does not exist, the obviously there can be no ministry in that sanctuary. That would fit with his message of completed atonement at the cross.
 In his teaching that Jesus died the Second death, he uses the Garden of Gethsemane words "Father, if it be your will, take this cup from me". He avers that "this cup" is a reference to the second death, not to the crucifixion. Based on Jesus' words to Peter I tend to disagree with that interpretation.  Jesus asked Peter "Can you drink the same cup I drink?" Peter responded yes. Jesus then said "Indeed you will drink from the same cup." Assuming Peter did not die the second death, but was crucified, that the "cup" was in fact the crucifixion.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on May 17, 2014, 06:37:07 PM

  http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-S/J-Sequerawm-501-506.pdf
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: sdazeal on May 17, 2014, 07:36:14 PM
Yes, that was the article I read in adVANCE ( nyuck nyuck) of this morning's sermon. I had wondered how true the article was. Pretty close on a few points. But here's the thing.
As I told my wife, the first 20 minutes were good and error-free, i.e., we cannot be saved by keeping the law. Wish he had stopped there. His heresies are subtle, but they are heresies in my opinion. I think most in the congregation did not catch the point that he does not believe there is a sanctuary in heaven, or if he does, it is only metaphorical. He knows my church is conservative, by and large, and so I believe he "toned it down" on the "OSAS", the "No Sanctuary" and the "Law is ONLY a guide to Christian living". But he did hit all three of these points in a subtle way. The thing I like about the members of my church is that they know what they believe, and are solid Adventists. While error sneaks in from time to time, it falls on deaf ears even if it is not rebuked openly.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on May 17, 2014, 07:55:06 PM
Yes, that was the article I read in adVANCE ( nyuck nyuck) of this morning's sermon. I had wondered how true the article was. Pretty close on a few points. But here's the thing.
As I told my wife, the first 20 minutes were good and error-free, i.e., we cannot be saved by keeping the law. Wish he had stopped there. His heresies are subtle, but they are heresies in my opinion. I think most in the congregation did not catch the point that he does not believe there is a sanctuary in heaven, or if he does, it is only metaphorical. He knows my church is conservative, by and large, and so I believe he "toned it down" on the "OSAS", the "No Sanctuary" and the "Law is ONLY a guide to Christian living". But he did hit all three of these points in a subtle way. The thing I like about the members of my church is that they know what they believe, and are solid Adventists. While error sneaks in from time to time, it falls on deaf ears even if it is not rebuked openly.

Yes, I consider that this is a critique of his position by another. That's why I look most closely  at his quotes. Even though they may have been pulled out of writings that would indicate context even at best some of his quotes are telling. When one says they do not know how  many compartments are in the heavenly sanctuary that indicates some things, not the least being how they relate to the SOP.

He may seem kind and gentle and may be. However, I am reminded how well respected Judas was and how he betrayed Christ with a kiss.
 
I wonder too if the contradiction or seeming  contradiction about him claiming we ought not quote the SOP and then him quoting it may  have to do with different time frames. People tend to move one direction or another over time. They usually either drift further from the truth or else they tend to come around. Or he may be taking a softer stance against the SOP now than previously in an effort to gain more credibility. It seems obvious to me that at this time  he is selectively using the SOP. That is the most deceptive procedure.

Often when questionable people go on and on about not being saved by works they are setting the stage to imply that we are saved in sin or that there is no judgment. His beginning would be a red flag to me (knowing how controversial he is) even before he got to the sanctuary.

He also talked about beating people up with the SOP. While this does happen sometimes this too is what people so often use to set up the dismissing of any authority regarding the SOP. He has a good deal of liberal thrusts. This may be why he is welcomed in so many churches these days. A strong local church would not have him speak to them.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ed Sutton on May 18, 2014, 01:30:38 AM
 Jack Sequeira's beliefs are to quote my daughter in law - a hot mess

Sequeira gave counterfeits ( truth + error > intending to confuse, deceive, destroy in the long run )

It's better to establish each point of truth and openly show the process of getting to each conclusion.
**********************************

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ed Sutton on May 18, 2014, 02:26:58 AM
( "Christs's merits alone" = 1 hit )

Isaiah 43:25  I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Isaiah 46:4  And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.


John 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


Revelation 1:18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Acts 10:
39  And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40  Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41  Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42  And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Quote
.... Men can not remove one stain of sin. Christ's merits alone will avail, and they have been placed at our disposal in rich fulness. Every moment we may draw upon Christ for help. As we turn to Him, He answers, "Here am I." Christ is our Intercessor. He places the incense of His righteousness in the golden censer, to offer up with the prayers of His disciples. The Father hears every prayer offered in contrition and sincerity. Our supplications blend with the supplications of our Intercessor, whose voice the Father always hears. {ST, February 28, 1906 par. 1}

Conclusion - Christ's righteousness and merits are all in all, creature merit is treason trying to improve on, and add to Christ's righteousness, and actually detract from it by adding their own to it. 

Creature merit is NOT the creature trying to obey Christ, creature merit is the creature thinking that creature obedience possesses power to create merits and atone for creature sins and unrighteousness. 

When in reality creature obedience is simply the creature's duty to the Creator. 

Obedience will be either from one way or the other.

Love and and faith and gratitude

or if obedience is attempted or coerced to happen while clinging to cherished idols  on one hand and going through the motions of obedience through drudgery or guilt or fear or phariseeism ( buying salvation through works, forms, ceremonies with a spiritually divided heart ).   

( situation of unconverted child or children - Mom & Dad make me go to Church, but I can't wait to get free. )

Then they stay that way or leave conversion, and become that way, rise through the ranks and spew double mindedness from the pulpit, indoctrinating all who give them place in their minds and affections and beliefs, thus trying to make us and our spouses and our kids and families and our converts and our Bible study interests - just like them. 

They are proselyting rebels advocating holding on to personal idols and advocating Christ in the same profession.

( fickle idols = 7 hits )   
Quote
4. Detachment as Well as Attachment.-....... The reason why many find the Christian life so deplorably hard, why they are so fickle, so variable, is, they try to attach themselves to Christ without detaching themselves from these cherished idols. . . .  {5BC 1143.8} 

     .......... purifieth the soul (Letter 31a, 1894).  {5BC 1144.2} 

(drudgery Christian = 19 hits  ) 
Quote
The young are often urged to speak or pray in meeting; they are urged to die to self. At every step of the Christian way they are urged. Such religion is worth nothing. Let the heart be changed, and it will not be such drudgery to serve God.--Signs, No. 41, 1891.  {PH048 46.4} 

Urged seems to mean - they have to be told,  have to be goaded to do,  what they are unwilling to do,  on their own. 

That's the spirit & attitude - such speakers seem to try to plant, water, and cultivate in our loved ones and in us - by their pulpit verbiage ignited from Satan's hellish torch.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: sdazeal on May 18, 2014, 08:25:44 AM
Yeah, I guess we should put him in the category of  a "guest speaker of a different denomination?" Was kind of my point form the beginning.

Another common theme of guest SDA speakers to my church is the idea that they believe we need to be reminded not to be "glum and unhappy", since it is included in almost every sermon lately. Sequeira also included this in his sermon yesterday. I brought this up to one of our elders yesterday, because the truth is that we have the happiest, kindest and least judgmental congregation I have ever known. I asked the elder if maybe we are stereotyped as "glum and unhappy" because we are a conservative church and don't really clap or yell much during sermons. He agreed. I feel it may also be because they are preaching liberalism and we don't really go for that.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on June 14, 2014, 02:11:39 PM
 Probably , some within and without of the church think we are to glum because we are not rolling in the isles with laughter.

We observed Walter Pearson today speaking and working  to solicit  laughter and hand clapping every 30 seconds. If he would have seen my stone face reaction to his liberalism cloaked with funny faces and antics he would have thought I was the most straight laced person on the planet. I can laugh but I do not do so when it is purposely drawn out of the audience like wages due the speaker. If I wanted to  laugh a something stupid I would rent a video of the Three Stooges ,Abbot and Costello,or the Andy Griffith Show, no thank you !
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: sdazeal on June 14, 2014, 03:01:45 PM
Gilligan's Island, CP, nothing defines "laugh at something stupid" like Gilligan's Island!

But I also grow weary of the continuous effort on the part of preachers to try to draw reactions, whether it be clapping, amens, holding up your hands, laughing, etc., etc. Maybe they do it to keep the attention of the congregation. If that is the case, then try preaching a message that wakes them up instead of the same old "safe" message that they have heard a thousand times already and is dry as the hills of Gilboa without dew or rain.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on June 14, 2014, 05:31:09 PM
I don't know if you saw 3abn campmeeting last week end but it is a different Walter P. now...  after the death of his wife from cancer and his massive stroke.... he is a different person.  His sermon was nothing like he used to give.  Maybe someone will put it on youtube...
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on December 24, 2014, 08:00:18 AM
Go to this site and click on the title " preparation."    Begin watching at about the 7 minute mark to minute 8. Do you see a problem ?

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF2v6LlSwB8


Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on December 25, 2014, 09:57:34 AM
Go to this site and click on the title " preparation."    Begin watching at about the 7 minute mark to minute 8. Do you see a problem ?

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF2v6LlSwB8

This speaker is an SDA elder.

What do you see?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 25, 2014, 01:11:52 PM
Is it possible that a speaker in a pulpit is the conduit for the energies of the master they follow ?

If so........

So if the speaker follows the wrong master, what you hear is the voice of one of the frog-like spirits, and take your pick of dragon, beast, false prophet; as his or her(the speaker's) master.

It's after eleven o"clock in Earth's history...... do you know whom your speaker serves ?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on December 25, 2014, 05:39:39 PM

Am I the only one that caught it ?


Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on December 25, 2014, 06:44:49 PM

Am I the only one that caught it ?
maybe....
I listened to about 45 minutes of it...  later he talks about EGW too but not initially.
what did you observe/see?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on December 26, 2014, 08:22:08 AM

Am I the only one that caught it ?
maybe....
I listened to about 45 minutes of it...  later he talks about EGW too but not initially.
what did you observe/see?

Much of it is ok but at the 7 minute mark you will notice that the question is asked "what is the faith of  Jesus ?" Then it is  answered in Revelation 19:10.  He used the wrong verse Revelation 14:12 when the verse was Revelation 12:17. " And  the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony  of Jesus Christ."   The question was to be " what is the testimony of Jesus?"  Answer Revelation 19:10 testimony of Jesus = Spirit of Prophecy.

That could have been an oops and I am certain that this was not intentional. However, that was apparently in the notes and then not caught when repeating the notes. My point is that there was a blind spot.
 
     I did not carefully listen later on but am told by by another in ministry that he paralleled Joseph, the son of Jacob with the pope. He also believes that the papacy will confiscate all the Bibles and keep them locked up at  the Vatican for 3 1/2 years. That is nonsense  and will never happen neither is it biblical. When we do not follow the health message  it lends itself to our having major blind spots.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on December 26, 2014, 12:01:52 PM
I will admit that I was a bit confused when he did not mention SOP and wondered if he was going to deny EGW but then later he did address it...  Did not realize that he made a mistake just caused me some confusion as I was having a hard time wondering where he was going??? 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on February 14, 2015, 03:22:49 PM
What are your thoughts regarding  unconverted spouses of our SDA people leading out from either behind the pulpit with the mission story, reading the offering reading, reading the Scripture verses and taking prayer requests, or them giving the children's story ?

Is there any danger in that ?  What message doe sit send ? And do we have any SOP or Bible verses that would pertain to that ?
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: GraceVessel on February 15, 2015, 01:26:16 PM
If you want to truly policy behavior. 

1) Have someone prepare an EGW approved checklist to fully itemize and delineate all acceptable behaviors according to church dogma.

2) With a fine tooth comb, scour the church records for all non-sda members that exist within the fellowship so that they can be singled out.

3) Confront them as soon as possible to inform them that any participation in any church activities is extremely forbidden and will be dealt with via church discipline.

4) Make sure that you follow up with all attending church spouses which are unequally yoked for whatever reason and censure them for not following EGW or biblical counsel.

5) If the leaders of the church (pastor/elder/deacons of the local congregation) do not engage with remediation of the non-members and do not follow EGW/biblical and church manual procedures, fill out a petition against the pastor of the church so that political pressure is brought to bear on the local conference to replace the pastor with someone that meets the doctrinal approval of the constituency of the church.

6) Make sure that you comply with Matthew 18:15 and document ever step thoroughly so that no reproach will be evident against the church.

7) Lastly, before ever allowing anyone to do anything in church, make sure they are full members in good standing and totally agree with the church hierarchy.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on February 15, 2015, 02:55:28 PM
You bring up some great points ! I think more policy behavior is a good idea as opposed to just winging it like is typical today in so many of our churches. Policy is no more a bad word than is rule or law. We live in a world of rules and laws for the protection of the people. Check out your insurance policy. Without the policy there is no  assurance of  insurance.

The reason I am asking the question is that we have the spouses of two lifelong SDA members who have been leading out up front.  Two Sabbaths ago one of the ladies gave the children's story. She called it a "children's sermon."  It was about Valentines and the title was "Jesus doesn't Give Valentines." She gave each child a Valentine's Day card and some candy. Then ended with Jesus' love is better than a valentine....... accept for maybe the candy."   In my book that means that candy may be better than Jesus' love. Wonderful !!! Just the message our children need !

My point is, can we expect those who are still hanging onto the world to send our youth and our other members the right message or will the message tend to embolden our struggling members in their folly ?

If we have non members who have been married to members for 10 years or more and have every opportunity to study and accept our message  and yet resist, giving "children's sermons" or adults sermons,... who is minding the store ?

Does it tend the send the message  that it matters little whether or not one makes a public declaration of their faith by giving evidence of surrendering of the hearts and laying down the gold and pearls and is baptized ?  Does giving them  most of the same prerogatives as members lead them and others to think that it matters not much one way or the other ?

GV, would you suggest that the church give non members leadership roles in the church ? If so, is there really any point in baptism and church membership ? I saw in one church where a Pentecostal lady that just walked in off the street was asked to give the children's story. Thankfully there was no incident  but what if she would have become slain in the spirit, broke out in tongues and convulsed on the floor.  Would that have been a good plan?

Church leaders should already know who their church members are so it is not difficult not to offer a non member  a role up before the people and behind the pulpit. This is not singling them out but rather not including them in roles that even some members are not given. While people are not saved via membership, membership should mean something and it should at least be a starting point. It is the same with marriage. Marrying another SDA does not necessarily a good  marriage make however, a starting point ought to be that they are of the same faith. This is sadly neglected in our churches today and to place non members in dutiful roles up front before the people only encourages our people to marry out of the church.

    People who have plenty of time and opportunity to accept the message and be baptized but continue to  resist are in a lost condition. No, I am not judging them but repeating whats God's Word says. By God's grace they may come around but we tend to hinder them when we give impression that all is well and that even professing the message is of little importance as long as they are accepted as one of us in good standing.

Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: restoretruth on February 15, 2015, 03:06:18 PM
GV,

I hope that isn't your church! :-)

There are issues that church members have a responsibility to address! There are times we need to speak out! There is good counsel in the SOP regarding this.

... The work which Christ came to do in our world was not to erect barriers, and constantly thrust upon the people the fact that they were wrong. He who expects to enlighten a deceived people must come near to them and labor for them in love. He must become a center of holy influence.  {GW 373.2} 

In the advocacy of truth the bitterest opponents should be treated with respect and deference. ...treat every man as honest. Speak no word, do no deed, that will confirm any in unbelief. {GW 373.3} 

...Carry forward the work of God firmly and strongly, but in the meekness of Christ, and as quietly as possible. Let no human boasting be heard. Let no sign of self-sufficiency be made. ... GW 374.1}

 The influence of your teaching would be tenfold greater if you were careful of your words. Words that should be a savor of life unto life may by the spirit which accompanies them be made a savor of death unto death. ....  {GW 374.2} 

 We long to see reforms; and because we do not see that which we desire, an evil spirit is too often allowed to cast drops of gall into our cup, and thus others are embittered. By our ill-advised words their spirit is chafed, and they are stirred to rebellion.  {GW 374.4}   

   ...every article you write, may be all true; but one drop of gall in it will be poison to the hearer or the reader. Because of that drop of poison, one will discard all your good and acceptable words.Another will feed on the poison; for he loves such harsh words. He follows your example, and talks just as you talk. Thus the evil is multiplied.  {GW 375.1}

     Those who present the eternal principles of truth need the holy oil emptied from the two olive branches into the heart. This will flow forth in words that will reform but not exasperate. The truth is to be spoken in love. Then the Lord Jesus by His Spirit will supply the force and the power. That is His work.--"{6T120-123}
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: restoretruth on February 15, 2015, 03:15:13 PM
CP,
It seems like you're working against the current where you are! There must be some good reasons why you stay there. Are there many in your church who are troubled by the situation there? We will keep you & your church in our prayers!
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on February 15, 2015, 03:24:12 PM
CP,
It seems like you're working against the current where you are! There must be some good reasons why you stay there. Are there many in your church who are troubled by the situation there? We will keep you & your church in our prayers!

Yes, the reason is that so far it is the best option of the weak options. There is one closer church where a teacher of the youth works at the liquor store on the Sabbath. Need I say more? That is the tip of the iceberg.

There  is some working room where I am but it is hard to change the current. We are simply holding back the tide. Otherwise it would be much worse.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on April 03, 2015, 07:18:36 AM
       J. Saunders entitled C.S. Lewis: A Bridge to Rome.

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/article/sorted/08_Sponsored_Articles/CS_Lewis_a_Bridge_to_Rome.pdf

A conference president tried to shoot me down because this is a non SDA site.  Interesting that he himself quotes Lewis ( a non SDA) from the pulpit in order to instruct the flock regarding spiritual matters and yet he seeks to discredit a non SDA that has concerns about Lewis because the author is not SDA. What's wrong with that ?

Anyway, if someone else runs into that the same article is on the Amazing Discoveries website.





     
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on April 05, 2015, 04:28:14 PM

The following is not SDA (I don't think) but it is most interesting. C.S. Lewis was not even close to getting it right. Apparently some of the Bible like Psalms disgusted him. That's ok. The little I have read from the material of C.S. Lewis disgusts me. How in the world  our people ever got to the place of promoting his work would be beyond me were it not for an understanding of the Society of Jesus and their work.



http://www.scribd.com/doc/28512833/C-S-Lewis-deliberately-promoted-a-Paganised-Form-of-Christianity#scribd
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 05, 2015, 09:56:57 PM
CP
Have you read any of Lewis books such as "Mere Christianity"?
His conversion story is very interesting.  He was an avowed atheist before becoming a Christian.

Sometimes the overly critical spirit of some on this board is quite troubling.  Many have come to know Christ by reading Lewis. 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on April 06, 2015, 09:56:37 AM
CP
Have you read any of Lewis books such as "Mere Christianity"?
His conversion story is very interesting.  He was an avowed atheist before becoming a Christian.

Sometimes the overly critical spirit of some on this board is quite troubling.  Many have come to know Christ by reading Lewis.

Nope, and I am not about to other than enough to analyze. I do not read Harry Potter and I do not read Wicca. I read little of that which I have reason not to be confident in and even that which I do have confidence in I spend a very limited amount of time in  unless it is clearly Inspired.

By the way did you know that modern day avowed witches consider the reading material of C.S. Lewis mandatory ?  Have you looked at his occultic themes running through much of his material and have you read his quotes of disgust for areas of the Bible in Psalms. as well as his disdain for passages that say "Praise the Lord!"   

A mixture of truth and error, paganism and Christianity is Christianity's biggest problem. Lewis had serious problems with the Bible.

Today I called the ABC at Lincoln, Nebraska. There is so much coming out of Lincoln that I expected a full line of Lewis' books to be carried there. The manager said, "we do not carry anything like that. You would have to go to Barns and Nobles for that kind of thing." I was pleasantly surprised and replied with, "good for you." Part of the reason I said tat was to reveal to them that I was not searching for that kind of material but rather researching this.

Critical of such material is just what we need to be especially at this time. There IS a prophet in Israel and it is not C.S. Lewis.

Many that claim to know Christ have an extremely warped concept because of books like this. As SDAs we can offer them so much better than that.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on April 06, 2015, 10:00:42 AM
 Let's discuss the links I posted. Let's look at the problematic material of C.S Lewis. A mixture of truth and error, poison and lemonade can be lethal.

Particularly on this thread  we are talking about SDAs being led to accept material from those who do not know or accept the Three Angel's Messages.


Reflections on Psalms  by C.S. Lewis

Regarding verse 5 of Psalm 23 (“Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies”), he says:

“This may not be so diabolical as the passages I have quoted above; but the pettiness and vulgarity of it, especially in such surroundings, are hard to endure. One way of dealing with these terrible (dare we say?)contemptible Psalms is simply to leave them alone.” (p.18)
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: newbie on April 06, 2015, 06:58:12 PM
i have read the book only because I saw that it was quoted so much by our people...

my take away feeling is that this book is for atheists... that maybe it will get them to think logically about good and where it must come from...  for atheists, I believe it might be a first step...

as for us, I think it should have no place in our quarterlies and writings... 
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on April 06, 2015, 10:49:44 PM
i have read the book only because I saw that it was quoted so much by our people...

my take away feeling is that this book is for atheists... that maybe it will get them to think logically about good and where it must come from...  for atheists, I believe it might be a first step...

as for us, I think it should have no place in our quarterlies and writings...

Thanks Newbie for an honest assessment from someone who actually read Mere Christianity. 
Lewis is so right on when giving an apologetic for the existence of God.

I have problems with those who take pot shots from reading other people's opinions rather than making intelligent observations from actually reading directly from the author. Then it is fair game to critique their writings.
Title: Re: Guest speakers of different denominations?
Post by: ColporteurK on April 07, 2015, 06:33:51 AM
 
  I posted a quote from C.S. Lewis. They are HIS words. If one wishes to add more of his quote that is fine.

Probably even the pope has said something good but we do not promote his literature as recommended reading for enlightenment within our church. If they do, they should be ashamed. Truth mixed with error only serves to make the writer's work the more dangerous and the more to be avoided.

What is amazing is that anyone could take an author's disdain for the word of God so lightly.

I am reminded of a question that never receives a sensible answer. What is it that those who have the light of God's Word and the amplification of God's Word as given through a  modern day prophet (relatively speaking) suppose they are finding in a jumbled mass of truth and error ( Lewis's work) that does not exist with prophetic writings ?  Entertainment ?

If indeed there is ANYTHING profound in ANY of Lewis' writings please present it (specifically) and It will then shown where we already have such truth , minus error, minus occultic imaginations, and minus confusion. An open mind is not an empty mind.

It has been acknowledged by a pro Lewis' fan that Newbie read Lewis with an open mind. Even that is not necessarily correct.  It sounds to me like Newbie read Lewis' because of influences that would tend to give one a preconceived view of the man's writings that they are wonderful. I am not saying that she could not be objective but to say that she  was entirely neutral when beginning to read is the very best one would conclude since she only read it because people were saying it was good. Her conclusion is that Lewis' writings " might be" for atheists.  Even the "might be" is an indication that this was a solid statement of assurance. She then said that his writings are not for SDAs. That is in harmony with the principle direction of this thread. It could be argued whether Lewis' writings are for anybody but the dominant point is that they are not for SDAs.

Can we address the error and attitude toward Scripture of C.S. Lewis or does that not matter ?
A faithful study of anything involves analyzing the content and not just a broad brushed statement of approval.
What standard do we hold when it comes to supporting a professional's work in any field ?

Imagine a brain surgeon having performed  what some  might consider a good maneuver during surgery and then making many serious mistakes like leaving the scalpel inside the patient and rather than sewing up the incision placing the stitches where there is no incision.  Would that be ignored because he may have done something correct during the surgery ? Imagine others in the field of medicine replying with " You need to keep an open mind."

Incidentally, that's pock shots. Error and  distain for any of God's Word should be singled out from the onset.