Revival Sermons

Theology => Sanctification => Topic started by: Raven on November 01, 2008, 02:15:35 PM

Title: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on November 01, 2008, 02:15:35 PM
I'm not sure if this is the right board to start this topic, but if it's not, I'm sure Larry will move it accordingly.   :-)

With all the bad reports we hear of the watering down of our message, including the idea that we can't overcome sin before Jesus returns, I was pleased to hear our young pastor affirm the fact that we can, and must, have victory over sin in this life; that we can, by the power of the Holy Spirit, stop sinning; that to say otherwise is a denial of God's power.

I thought the fact that there are still pastors (and not just the old-timers) who believe in victory over sin would be encouraging for the rest of you to know.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: reaching4heaven on November 01, 2008, 03:08:53 PM
I'm not sure if this is the right board to start this topic, but if it's not, I'm sure Larry will move it accordingly.   :-)

With all the bad reports we hear of the watering down of our message, including the idea that we can't overcome sin before Jesus returns, I was pleased to hear our young pastor affirm the fact that we can, and must, have victory over sin in this life; that we can, by the power of the Holy Spirit, stop sinning; that to say otherwise is a denial of God's power.

I thought the fact that there are still pastors (and not just the old-timers) who believe in victory over sin would be encouraging for the rest of you to know.

 :yay: It's been many years since I've heard a sermon like that in church. Praise God that the truth is still spoken in churches.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on November 01, 2008, 04:31:26 PM
I'm not sure if this is the right board to start this topic, but if it's not, I'm sure Larry will move it accordingly.   :-)

With all the bad reports we hear of the watering down of our message, including the idea that we can't overcome sin before Jesus returns, I was pleased to hear our young pastor affirm the fact that we can, and must, have victory over sin in this life; that we can, by the power of the Holy Spirit, stop sinning; that to say otherwise is a denial of God's power.

I thought the fact that there are still pastors (and not just the old-timers) who believe in victory over sin would be encouraging for the rest of you to know.

I wished I'd been there to hear it!  We'd better have victory over sin before probation closes for the church.....  just around the corner.  Mark 13.

Good topic.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Pamela Adams on November 02, 2008, 06:20:03 AM
In our little church we get a very good message on the importance of overcoming sin.........but what I have been really impressed with of late...is what God is doing among our young people....there does seem to be a polarization going on....either we are growing into the likeness of Jesus or or we are growing into the likeness of that other fellow...

Several weeks ago, the grandson of one of our members......for whom she has prayed for diligently......asked if he could give the sermon.  As I listened to this young man...I was so impressed with his message.....the content...the conviction that he displayed while talking.......I knew little of him except that she was always praying for him......I had not met him.  It was as if listening to a Paul or a Peter, I imagined he had been to Amazing Facts school or similiar. I do not think he has had any training that I am aware of other than personal study. At the conclusion of his sermon....he spoke of his past life[now I understand the grandmother's concern over his physical and spiritual life] and how Jesus had delivered him....and how he had loss over a hundred pounds by being on a vegan diet.....all of this in just a year......and he is only 22 yrs old.

I believe that God is moving on our young people and I just praise our Jesus for the GYC...and the www.Advent-Hope.org........and other similiar conferences with the same goals. I think as a church we should try to encourage as many as possible to go to these conferences, and if they cannot because of finances, than we should try to raise money so that they may attend if at all possible.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on November 02, 2008, 09:52:40 AM
Pamela,
This is all we can do... is to give our witness..  This young person has done a wonderful thing to share and it will impress others....
It is more difficult for those grown up in the church however...

newbie
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Pamela Adams on November 02, 2008, 11:11:56 AM
Newbie......I think somehow those who are older in the faith.....have wonderful testimonies etc. of how God worked in their lives....but they are now packed away in some suitcase and stored away......if brought out and shared with others....their own spiritual condition would be revived.....and then they would have fresh experiences and then be eager to share.............and all would be blessed.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on November 02, 2008, 04:33:10 PM
Newbie......I think somehow those who are older in the faith.....have wonderful testimonies etc. of how God worked in their lives....but they are now packed away in some suitcase and stored away......if brought out and shared with others....their own spiritual condition would be revived.....and then they would have fresh experiences and then be eager to share.............and all would be blessed.

This would be wonderful.. I'd love to hear a few of them.... 
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 13, 2009, 02:26:50 AM
Lots of folks have lots of opinions of what victory over sin is and they might get loud and long about it.

But has anybody ever searched out from inspiration -

1.  Does Jesus say what he views, as victory over all actions of omitted or committed sin, and  of present tense unmet needed acts of restitution and carnal mindedness ?        (Obvious answer is yes)

2. Does Jesus say how ?      (Obvious answer is yes )

3. Where ?       ( I will let you answer that )
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: CONCRETE on May 22, 2009, 08:21:00 AM
With all the bad reports we hear of the watering down of our message, including the idea that we can't overcome sin before Jesus returns, I was pleased to hear our young pastor affirm the fact that we can, and must, have victory over sin in this life; that we can, by the power of the Holy Spirit, stop sinning; that to say otherwise is a denial of God's power.

Water down we must not; so how would you compare the verse below with the statement above?

1 John 1:10 (Amplified)

If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].

To me, this verses says it is my attitude thats counts. If we can absolutely stop sinning than what is the purpose of God's grace?
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on May 22, 2009, 12:01:07 PM
Water down we must not; so how would you compare the verse below with the statement above?

1 John 1:10 (Amplified)

If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].

To me, this verses says it is my attitude thats counts. If we can absolutely stop sinning than what is the purpose of God's grace?

Those who go through the time of trouble, will not have a Mediator.  They will not be sinning.  Probation will have closed.  They will not know that probation has closed.  They will not say that they are without sin.  But they must be without sin or they will not be translated. 

I assume that you've read the last few chapters of Great Controversy.  It's pretty clear from even a quick read, that those who survive the time of trouble will, by the power of the Holy Spirit, have given up sin.  Otherwise God could not say, "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still."

Without God's grace we would not even have a chance to be justified, much less be sanctified.  God's grace gives us that which we do not deserve--a second chance.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on May 22, 2009, 12:40:02 PM
Please don't make this a 'cheap grace' argument or insinuate that I think we can happily keep sinning until we die. This is not my argument.  I simply  believe that there are serious problems with the topic at hand.

Those who go through the time of trouble, will not have a Mediator.  They will not be sinning.  Probation will have closed.  They will not know that probation has closed.  They will not say that they are without sin.  But they must be without sin or they will not be translated.

Please explain to me why the grace of God seems to have done nothing  but merely make us able to stand on our own merits and our own righteousness? Please explain to me how and why our salvation hinges not on Christ's blood covering our lives, but on our own acts and thoughts (these even bred from a sinful nature prone to sin with all its propensities) at a specific point in time?

Better yet...why then? Why not now? If it is possible to not sin at all, then Pelagius was correct. Our salvation hinges on last day decisions and thoughts. Basically, Christ's death and resurrection only set our sin clock back to zero so we could base our salvation on sanctification from here on end.

I wonder how many of our 80-90 year old saints who've been SDAs all their live achieved sinless perfection by the time they died. I fail to see how the Spirit helps us not to sin at the end of probation so we can stand alone but hasn't seemed to have this same power in the saints that have passed on? By your accounts, they should have been able to do it. What if they didn't??  Did they have to be sinlessly perfect at their death right now? Why not? Is not Christ's blood sufficient for all ages to cover our sins and make us spotless before God? I fail to see how Christ's blood is sufficient and necessary for us now when we die tomorrow, but it is not acceptable at the end of time when we will need his intercession the most! It makes no sense, Raven.

"God, thank you for you grace covering my sins right now. However, when all hell breaks lose at the end times,, I do expect to stand on my own. I really won't need your help. Thanks! My salvation is in my hands. If I sin, I'm doomed...I'll take a chance with myself anyway."

Is that not a bit of a slap in the face to the saving grace of God?

assume that you've read the last few chapters of Great Controversy.  It's pretty clear from even a quick read, that those who survive the time of trouble will, by the power of the Holy Spirit, have given up sin.  Otherwise God could not say, "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still."

Perhaps because 'he that is righteous' has found His righteousness in Christ's covering robe. It is too late to choose Christ. The choice has been made to either reject Christ's righteousness or accept it. The Bible makes it clear that 'our righteousness is as filthy rags'. This righteousness is found in the blood of the lamb, covering our sins and imperfections.

It doesn't matter how good you are, Raven. Your acts and thoughts mean nothing as far as your standing goes with God. You are still sinful and anathema to the righteousness of God without Christ's robe covering your sins.

Do you not understand that? Sin is a condition, not just acts. The best person in the whole world is on the same level as the law breaking murderer. Being sinless (or having the appearance of) in thought and action at the time of trouble doesn't put you on better footing salvation wise than the worst sinner. The cross is the great equalizer! The ground is level at the foot of the cross. Without the cleansing blood of Christ and His robe covering us...we are sinners and will not get into heaven no matter how good we can act.

It is Christ that makes us fit for heaven, not sinless perfection.


Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on May 22, 2009, 05:04:10 PM

Please explain to me why the grace of God seems to have done nothing  but merely make us able to stand on our own merits and our own righteousness? Please explain to me how and why our salvation hinges not on Christ's blood covering our lives, but on our own acts and thoughts (these even bred from a sinful nature prone to sin with all its propensities) at a specific point in time?

I wonder how many of our 80-90 year old saints who've been SDAs all their live achieved sinless perfection by the time they died.

It doesn't matter how good you are, Raven. Your acts and thoughts mean nothing as far as your standing goes with God. You are still sinful and anathema to the righteousness of God without Christ's robe covering your sins.

Do you not understand that? Sin is a condition, not just acts. The best person in the whole world is on the same level as the law breaking murderer. Being sinless (or having the appearance of) in thought and action at the time of trouble doesn't put you on better footing salvation wise than the worst sinner. The cross is the great equalizer! The ground is level at the foot of the cross. Without the cleansing blood of Christ and His robe covering us...we are sinners and will not get into heaven no matter how good we can act.

It is Christ that makes us fit for heaven, not sinless perfection.


Where to start?  So many misrepresentations, so little time.  Not sure where you got the idea that "the grace of God seems to have done nothing  but merely make us able to stand on our own merits and our own righteousness," out of what I said.  I said nothing about our own merits or righteousness.   We have none.  I was only summarizing what is stated in GC.  Have you read it?  Do you believe it?  If so, then you know that it is very plainly stated that the saints must live in the sight of God without a mediator after the close of probation.  They will not be sinning after the close of probation.  If that's not "sinless perfection"  (in the sense that one has ceased sinning, not that one has a sinless nature, yet), then I don't know what it is.  I don't profess to understand it fully--I don't need to.  The inspired commentary is enough for me.  But maybe I just have a simple mind.  One can argue theological fine points all day, but one cannot get around the fact that no one who sins after the close of probation will enter heaven.

All this is made possible, of course, because of Christ's merits, and our choice to surrender to His Spirit.

"Being sinless (or having the appearance of) in thought and action at the time of trouble doesn't put you on better footing salvation wise than the worst sinner"?  Why not?  If what Ellen White says is true, and I believe it is, then those who have allowed the Holy Spirit to sanctify them will not be sinning, and will obviously be on a better footing than "the worst sinner"--not because of any inherent righteousness, but because the righteousness of Christ covers them--but it does not cover those who have chosen to continue in their sins.

Your arguments sound like they stem from the Augustinian concept of original sin--which is not the same thing as having a sinful nature.  If his theology is true, then of course one could never stop sinning, because sin would not be a choice, it would be part of you.  A newborn baby would be sinning the moment it was conceived.  That's why some denominations practice infant baptism.  Having "sinful propensities" is not the same as being born guilty--which is the conclusion to which belief in original sin leads us.

As for those who die before Christ comes, I don't profess to understand where they stand in terms of sanctification.  What I read in the SOP leads me to believe that they progressed as far as possible, and the robe of Christ's righteousness makes up the difference.  But those who are translated are to go through a different experience than any other generation that has ever lived.  Why is it so hard to believe that this special group will achieve what Jesus achieved?  Only He achieved it from beginning to end, rather than progressing toward it as the end time saints will.

Why do so many have a problem with the concept that perfection can be achieved this side of heaven?  Mrs. White says that only those who would rather die than sin will survive the time of trouble.  That plainly implies that there will be a group that will have chosen to serve God at all costs, and they will have been so grounded in the truth, and so committed to God that they will not be able to be overcome anymore by Satan.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 22, 2009, 05:23:02 PM
This debate brings up perhaps the most significant paradox in the Bible, and I believe that we must deal with it as individuals or we will not truly understand how we are saved. It is true that it is the shed blood of Christ that saves us. The robe of righteousness is provided by him. We do nothing to create it. However, we must cooperate with Christ to obtain it and cooperate with Him as he works in us to fit us for heaven. There is a work for us to do. Our works in and of themselves do not save us, but we will be lost if we do not produce the works that Christ has described that we must have. As James said "Faith without works is dead." The book of Revelation tells us that the saved are "they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

This paradox is described by one writer (Leroy Moore) as truth having two poles, llike a car battery. We must grasp and protect both poles. To grasp only one side of truth is to not have the truth at all. Another writer, (Herbert Douglass), describes the truth as an elliptical circle. One side of the ellipse contains Law, the other side contains grace. Having the "truth" consists of honoring both sides of the ellipse and taking care that we do not emphasize one side and neglet or toss out the other. There are many, many, Bible texts and SOP quotes to back this up.

To reject either side of the truth is like being in a row boat with only one oar and only paddling on one side.  Grace and obedience are a single package. We can't really have one without the other.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: GraceVessel on May 22, 2009, 05:58:37 PM
My take on this, after reading the Bible and SOP is in relation to possession.   The points above are all good points and reflect both sides of the poles as Larry Lyons states very succinctly.  In the end times there are two kinds of people.. those that are fully possessed with the Holy Spirit and have "settled into the truth" not merely on a knowledge "sin is the trangression of the law", but relationally... "whatsoever is not of faith is sin"... this deeper meaning, or spiritual reality if you will is the depth of the Christian's faith in the last days... namely... to reflect God in all things... the Holy Spirit having full possession of our minds, thoughts, heart, and devotion we are sealed into a complete walk with God. 

Grace is applied at EVERY step of our walk with God which encompasses, conversion, repentance, forgiveness, but most directly movitation... as we draw nearer to God and realize His holiness --- we have two options... walk deeper in faith... or choose to not walk.  The Bible and the SOP are truth and are good schoolteachers to help focus our minds on the things that matter most to God in the last days... what he treasures most... His Law... and those that live by faith in Him.

Currently, there are three groups of people... those that are possessed, those that arent and are in the valley of decision, and those that are posessed.  To be totally called out to God ... means a walk of faith and growth... I am not so much concerned about be "holy" at the end of time... rather my focus should be ... (based on what I have studied to be true from God's word) what is my motivation towards God today? Is it pure... does he own my heart.   

God's grace imparts to us a saving component that we experience in and by faith... so that as we look back and give thanks we see God's handiwork in our lives... which gives us even more confidence to allow God to cleanse our motives when our all is on the altar.

Unless we are totally called out to God in the last days... we will be deceived... because we must fully know that God has saved us... is saving us by His grace continually and that we are self aware of His presence in our lifes at all times.

Best regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 22, 2009, 08:25:01 PM
Thank you Gracevessel. Excellent post. It gets down to what really counts.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: CONCRETE on May 25, 2009, 06:45:50 AM
Those who go through the time of trouble, will not have a Mediator.  They will not be sinning.  Probation will have closed.  They will not know that probation has closed.  They will not say that they are without sin.  But they must be without sin or they will not be translated. 

I assume that you've read the last few chapters of Great Controversy.  It's pretty clear from even a quick read, that those who survive the time of trouble will, by the power of the Holy Spirit, have given up sin.  Otherwise God could not say, "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still."

Without God's grace we would not even have a chance to be justified, much less be sanctified.  God's grace gives us that which we do not deserve--a second chance.

I'd be interested in Biblical support for this. After reading the fundamentals of belief for the SDA church (as I understood it), it did not say anything like this at all. It did say there are three categories of people: those who believe in Christ and have faith that he is their savior, those who absolutely reject him and those who think they are saved because they have the appearance of a good Christian. This concerns me as this last categorie appears like the statement above.

Isn't it God's grave that has saved us? It is his grace that is our righteousness, not our own.

Romans 10:3-4 (Amp.) says,

3 For being ignorant of the righteousness that God ascribes [which makes one acceptable to Him in word, thought, and deed] and seeking to establish a righteousness (a means of salvation) of their own, they did not obey or submit themselves to God's righteousness.

4 For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.

Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on May 25, 2009, 08:56:06 AM
I'd be interested in Biblical support for this. After reading the fundamentals of belief for the SDA church (as I understood it), it did not say anything like this at all. It did say there are three categories of people: those who believe in Christ and have faith that he is their savior, those who absolutely reject him and those who think they are saved because they have the appearance of a good Christian. This concerns me as this last categorie appears like the statement above.

Isn't it God's grave that has saved us? It is his grace that is our righteousness, not our own.

Romans 10:3-4 (Amp.) says,

3 For being ignorant of the righteousness that God ascribes [which makes one acceptable to Him in word, thought, and deed] and seeking to establish a righteousness (a means of salvation) of their own, they did not obey or submit themselves to God's righteousness.

4 For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.



Of course it is God's grace that has saved us.  It is His grace that has made everything possible for us.  Without it we would be lost.  But God's grace does not nullify the process of sanctification.  God cannot take unsanctified people to heaven.  Those who are translated are a unique group; unlike any generation that has ever lived on the earth.  They will, for a short time, live in the sight of God without a Mediator.  Rev. 22:11, 12 announces the close of probation, ands the fact that Jesus is about to arrive in the clouds.  The saints will not know that this pronouncement has been made.  They will make no claims to any righteousness of their own.  They will feel like Isaiah, or anyone else who has a proper grasp of God's holiness.  But they will have also learned to live lives of continual surrender to the Holy Spirit.

I can't explain it nearly as well as Ellen White in Great Controversy.  She was shown what would take place.  I have no reason to doubt the validity of what she presents in that book.  It does not contradict Scripture, although it fills some of the blanks which are not spelled out in Scripture.  I believe it addresses the very points on which you have questions.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: wondering on May 25, 2009, 09:10:10 AM
They will feel like Isaiah, or anyone else who has a proper grasp of God's holiness.  But they will have also learned to live lives of continual surrender to the Holy Spirit.

Good points. Those who live without a mediator still survive by living under the control of the Holy Spirit. Mediation may have ceased, but our dependence on God for obedience will not have stopped. I only bring this up because sometimes people think that when we talk about living without a mediator, we are also saying that we will live sinless apart from the Holy Spirit.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on May 25, 2009, 01:08:51 PM
Good points. Those who live without a mediator still survive by living under the control of the Holy Spirit. Mediation may have ceased, but our dependence on God for obedience will not have stopped. I only bring this up because sometimes people think that when we talk about living without a mediator, we are also saying that we will live sinless apart from the Holy Spirit.
This is true....  our prayers will go directly to the Father... no mediator.  And, we will have the Holy Spirit with us all through the tough times.   
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Deborah Risinger on May 26, 2009, 11:09:07 AM
Not to be contrary here...but I have a question...do any of us really understand what it is, for a fallen human creature, to be "without sin" before a Holy God?"

Another question....what does it mean "to have complete victory over sin?"

What I do know is that....when any of us are judged....what God sees is Christ...His covering (blood) over me...His life for mine...His Righteousness for my filth.

When the Mediator is removed....my life, your life, is still hid in Christ.  We will be impowered to stand as did Luther , John, Paul and the like.

I am not sure the "English language" can adequately explain the "sinless experience."  I do think it is "realized" by individuals who walk with Christ...He makes it a reality to enjoy and work out and except by faith.....


Just my thoughts...

God's Blessings'
Deborah  :-)
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on May 26, 2009, 02:03:57 PM
Not to be contrary here...but I have a question...do any of us really understand what it is, for a fallen human creature, to be "without sin" before a Holy God?"

Another question....what does it mean "to have complete victory over sin?"

What I do know is that....when any of us are judged....what God sees is Christ...His covering (blood) over me...His life for mine...His Righteousness for my filth.

When the Mediator is removed....my life, your life, is still hid in Christ.  We will be impowered to stand as did Luther , John, Paul and the like.

I am not sure the "English language" can adequately explain the "sinless experience."  I do think it is "realized" by individuals who walk with Christ...He makes it a reality to enjoy and work out and except by faith.....


Just my thoughts...

God's Blessings'
Deborah  :-)

It is hard for us to imagine what it will be like to live without sin but EGW and bible promises this so it must be truth.  I have a relative that had a remarkable experience and if that time is ANYTHING like the power and love that he received it will possible.  He said that for 6 months he had no desire to sin and not because it was a rule, it was because of the power of Love from Jesus that he wanted to sin no more. 
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: CONCRETE on May 27, 2009, 08:57:31 AM
It is hard for us to imagine what it will be like to live without sin but EGW and bible promises this so it must be truth. 

Please share your biblical references for this. Thanks.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on May 27, 2009, 11:02:38 AM
All texts in REv. about the 144K.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on May 27, 2009, 11:24:25 AM
Of course it is God's grace that has saved us.  It is His grace that has made everything possible for us.  Without it we would be lost.  But God's grace does not nullify the process of sanctification.  God cannot take unsanctified people to heaven.

Really? What about all the saints who have died before us? I know for a fact that none of them that I know were all 'fully sanctified', but I've no doubt that they will be in heaven. Raven, what you are saying is what Paul spoke against. He that says he is without sin is a liar'. Sanctification may never be completed in our lifetimes! Sanctification does NOT save us. Only the covering robe of righteousness makes us fit for heaven.

If I died tomorrow, my status for heaven would not be found on whether I was 'unsanctified', but whether I asked God to come into my life, give me His grace, and cover my sins. The robe of righteousness covers me! His grace qualifies me for heaven.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on May 27, 2009, 02:00:45 PM
Really? What about all the saints who have died before us? I know for a fact that none of them that I know were all 'fully sanctified', but I've no doubt that they will be in heaven. Raven, what you are saying is what Paul spoke against. He that says he is without sin is a liar'. Sanctification may never be completed in our lifetimes! Sanctification does NOT save us. Only the covering robe of righteousness makes us fit for heaven.

If I died tomorrow, my status for heaven would not be found on whether I was 'unsanctified', but whether I asked God to come into my life, give me His grace, and cover my sins. The robe of righteousness covers me! His grace qualifies me for heaven.

Your last statement leaves out one important factor:  surrender.  It is one thing to ask "God to come into my life, give me His grace, and cover my sins."  It's quite another thing to surrender completely to Him.  This is the problem with the evangelical "Romans Road, sinners prayer"  program.  It fixates on the text that says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved," while ignoring the texts that talk about surrender and performance.  "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."  "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."  James 1:22, 2:17.

Do you or do you not believe the statement by Ellen White that "sanctification is the work of a lifetime?"  Or the one about the fact that sin must be overcome in this lifetime?  How do you define "fully sanctified."  If you know that none of the sleeping saints were "fully sanctified," you must know more than any other mortal on this planet.  You seem to have missed my statement that the saints who are translated (as well as those who are resurrected) will not say that they are without sin.  You seem to be denying the possibility of overcoming sin in this lifetime.  That's what the "original sin" proponents believe, and I assume that, being an Adventist, you reject their theology.  Those who have died in faith, have lived a life of repentance.  Their purpose was to serve God.  They did not profess to be without sin, but they had their eye on the goal of character perfection, and were steadily advancing in that direction.  They were like David in that their purpose was to serve God.  They were like the mountain climber who struggles up a slippery, gravelly slope, sometimes slipping backwards, but always pressing forward with his eyes fixed on the summit--not taking delight in looking back toward the dismal swamps behind him.  How do you interpret I John 3:6:  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:  whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." ?

While I do not profess to understand how God decides who is fit for heaven, I do know that only those who would rather die than sin will be saved.  Those who still love sin cannot be saved.  Jesus said that we cannot serve two masters.  We either love God or we love Satan.  There is no middle ground.  Those who were still serving the flesh when they died will be lost.  I'm not talking about absolute perfection.  No human will ever be absolutely perfect, since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."  But sanctification is about advancement toward that goal of perfection.  Some die at the beginning of that process (the thief on the cross); some, like Moses, have an entire lifetime to perfect their characters.  It is the internal motives that make the difference at to whether or not they are saved.  The thief on the cross and Moses are similar in one respect:  they both advanced as far as they could under the circumstances.  That's all God asks or expects.  But to use the excuse that we have a sinful nature, and therefore can't overcome sin in this lifetime is not acceptable to God.  It make Him out to be a liar.  How does one understand Jesus' statement, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect," if we don't take it at face value?  Paul said he could do all things through Christ.  Why do we limit the power of God's Holy Spirit to bring us victory over sin?  We do not decide when we have gained the victory, because "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked."  But God knows when that moment has come it is He who affirms it.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on May 27, 2009, 03:40:56 PM
Really? What about all the saints who have died before us? I know for a fact that none of them that I know were all 'fully sanctified', but I've no doubt that they will be in heaven. Raven, what you are saying is what Paul spoke against. He that says he is without sin is a liar'. Sanctification may never be completed in our lifetimes! Sanctification does NOT save us. Only the covering robe of righteousness makes us fit for heaven.

If I died tomorrow, my status for heaven would not be found on whether I was 'unsanctified', but whether I asked God to come into my life, give me His grace, and cover my sins. The robe of righteousness covers me! His grace qualifies me for heaven.

Victory over sin was one of the pillars of the church in 1863.

There were some that the bible records as fully sanctified...   but after that time period we do not know..  the martyrs during the reformation, the Waldensians, there may have been some there... we just don't know..  If they have lived up to all the light the Lord has given them then His grace and mercy will be sufficient for their salvation as Jesus died for their sins of ignorance.

But for the time of the end in the closing events of this earth's history there will be no excuse.  There will be a group that will have victory over sin.  Jesus said more than once to 'go and sin no more' and if He said it, it must be truth.

Here are some well known quotes from REv. 7 and Rev. 14 about the sealed group that will go through without an intercessor and will have no guile in their mouths.

Quote
Rev. 7:
4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev, 14: 1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2: And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5: And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on May 28, 2009, 10:02:02 AM
Those who have died in faith, have lived a life of repentance.  Their purpose was to serve God.  They did not profess to be without sin, but they had their eye on the goal of character perfection, and were steadily advancing in that direction.  They were like David in that their purpose was to serve God.  They were like the mountain climber who struggles up a slippery, gravelly slope, sometimes slipping backwards, but always pressing forward with his eyes fixed on the summit--not taking delight in looking back toward the dismal swamps behind him.  How do you interpret I John 3:6:  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not:  whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

Either sanctification saves us now as much as later or it doesn't, Raven. You can't say, 'Oh, well they were as sanctified as they can be'. People have died while still struggling. They are saved, not by their overcoming (or lack thereof) but because they have served God within a genuine conversion and despite their sins and failings, are covered by the blood of the lamb. Nothing changes in the future. We are saved the same yesterday, today and for the future.

His grace and mercy will be sufficient for their salvation as Jesus died for their sins of ignorance...But for the time of the end in the closing events of this earth's history there will be no excuse.  There will be a group that will have victory over sin.

I completely disagree in the strongest sense possible without getting sanctioned.  God's grace and mercy are for all people at all times. There isn't a time in history when we are saved by God's grace but it isn't sufficient at the end when we are saved by our sanctified status. God's grace is EVERYTHING. It is not merely one tool that is 'sufficient' (like there could be better things but God's grace will do for the time being) but what qualifies us past , present an future.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on May 28, 2009, 10:08:03 AM
Here are some well known quotes from REv. 7 and Rev. 14 about the sealed group that will go through without an intercessor and will have no guile in their mouths.


You are assuming that being 'without guile' and 'without fault', are because of their good deeds. 'By the works of the law, NO man is justified'. The 144 000 are these things because they have put their faith in the blood of Christ and have 'washed their robes', not because they gritted their teeth and did everything without Christ.  These same people are called 'without guile' and 'without fault because they 'were redeemed from among men' (vs 4). This redeeming is why they are like that. Redemption doesn't come because of sinless perfection.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on May 28, 2009, 10:59:18 AM

GUi,
Just proving that there will be a group that will be sinless and have victory over sin at the end times.  That's all.  Rev. 7 and 14 prove this well with the 144K.  Not for forget that Jesus more than once said... go and sin no more!  So it is possible.

Quote
Rev. 7:
4: And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev, 14: 1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2: And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5: And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on May 28, 2009, 12:01:16 PM
Christ is our mediator. We are declared righteous when we are justified, and as long as we abide in Christ, we are accounted perfect in Christ. This is the truth that Martin Luther was willing to die for, and the truth that William Tyndale did burn at the stake at the hands of the Roman church. If we are abiding in Christ, we still sin, but if we do sin we have an advocate with God the Father who is our mediator:

1 John 1:8-10

 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


 


Matthew 28:19,20

 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus as our mediator says He is with us until the end of the world. Does this mean only to the end of probation, or to the end of the world?

Jesus has promised to keep us safe in His and the Father's hand in John 10:28-30:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 30I and my Father are one.

----------------------------------------------------


Soli Deo Gloria (To God alone be the glory)

Stan
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 28, 2009, 08:11:03 PM
Will we have a period of time after we are in heaven to overcome our character defects?
Our characters consist of our thoughts and feelings. That would include our motives. The Bible tells us that our physical bodies will be changed "like unto His glorius body" but the Bible does not tell us that our characters will be changed. If that were so, then everyone could be saved. In heaven we will be the same person we were on earth. Our thoughts and our feelings will still run in the same channells that they did on earth.

If it says in the Bible that we will be able to overcome the problems we have with our sinful thoughts and feelings after we get to heaven, then we don't have anything to worry about. If anyone can find such a text, please post it. Or, if anyone can find a statement that Jesus will miraculously change our characters at his coming or afterwards, please give us that text as well.  But if those ideas are not supported by Scripture, then Jesus has a problem. If he takes someone who is alive at His coming to heaven who has unforgiven sins registered in the books of heaven, then, in order to be consistent, he has to take everybody, even the devil and his angels. This is why Satan works so hard to keep the saints sinning. He wants to delay Jesus' coming, and he will catch many unprepared when Jesus does come. Jesus will not delay His coming indefinately.

For those who die before He comes, Jesus can save all who were cooperating with Him in His work of sanctification in them. He can say "I wasn't finished with them, but I was making progress. They are mine!"

This is based on material from "New Words For Witnessing" which can be read or downloaded from the home page of this website.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on May 28, 2009, 08:43:40 PM
Will we have a period of time after we are in heaven to overcome our character defects?
Our characters consist of our thoughts and feelings. That would include our motives. The Bible tells us that our physical bodies will be changed "like unto His glorius body" but the Bible does not tell us that our characters will be changed.

Larry, the reason WHY we sin is due to our sinful nature, our propensities and inclinations toward evil. These are ingrained in our every fibre, our every cell. Do you not think that a complete change in nature will 'reprogram' us? It is not just simply getting an 'oil change'. Our transformation will be at a cellular level, eliminating all the rust, grime, sludge and 'kinks' that have made us function the way we have. It is not merely a 'body change'.

If that were so, then everyone could be saved. In heaven we will be the same person we were on earth. Our thoughts and our feelings will still run in the same channells that they did on earth.

Then there isn't much hope for those saints who have died before this character change, is there? This is the illogical fallacy of sinless perfection and 'we must have perfect characters before we go to heaven'. There have been MILLIONS who have not achieved this and died.

What do you propose God will do with them that He can't do with us?

If it says in the Bible that we will be able to overcome the problems we have with our sinful thoughts and feelings after we get to heaven, then we don't have anything to worry about. If anyone can find such a text, please post it. Or, if anyone can find a statement that Jesus will miraculously change our characters at his coming or afterwards, please give us that text as well.

The same can be said to you, Larry. If there is a text that says we must be sinlessly perfect or we will never make it to heaven, please show it. If there is a text taht says all we take to heaven is our character and get merely a 'body' change, please post it. If there is a text that says that the final generation vindicates God by their good behavior, please post it.

If he takes someone who is alive at His coming to heaven who has unforgiven sins registered in the books of heaven, then, in order to be consistent, he has to take everybody, even the devil and his angels.

A repentant heart and the blood of Jesus will forgive those sins, not sinless perfection and personal sanctification achieved without a Mediator. Is the blood of Jesus not sufficient, or must we show that we can stand on our own merits?


For those who die before He comes, Jesus can save all who were cooperating with Him in His work of sanctification in them. He can say "I wasn't finished with them, but I was making progress. They are mine!"

Back to my previous post...The bottom line is that their characters were not fully sanctified. What is God to do with them? Why do they get a wiped out memory and reprogrammed sinlessness but we must achieve this through a teeth gritting, sanctification process of perfection??

Larry, my friend. Do you not see that this is so much speculation? Do you not see that this is the same type of unsupported thinking of far out ideas we get from Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, the same illogical thinking of Muslims? How in the world can we blame them for what we deem as 'cultic' fabrications when we spin such tales that are as far removed from the Reformation gospel and biblical grace as Brittany Spears is from opera??
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on May 29, 2009, 12:27:14 AM
The Roman Catholic church has also wrestled with this problem of being sanctified enough to save, so they came up with purgatory. But I am troubled by some of what I read above that some have at least a degree of the same thinking that defines Romanism

Larry posted an interesting thread last December at this link:

http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=2840.0

This was an excellent presentation on the differences between Romanism and Protestantism, and it would be well to review this information. Because, what I am reading from a few is a classical works righteousness system which the Reformers fought so hard against.

Here is the quiz that Larry posted and all the right answers that Newbie gave:

                      QUESTIONS ON JUSTIFICATION

1. (a) God gives man right standing with Himself by mercifully accounting him innocent and virtuous.
    (b) God gives man right standing with Himself by actually making him into an innocent and
          virtuous person.
2. (a) God gives a man right standing with Himself by placing Christ's goodness and virtue to his
         credit.
3. (a) God accepts the believer because of the moral excellence found in Christ Jesus.
    (b) God makes the believer acceptable by infusing Christ's moral excellence into his life.
4. (a) If a Christian becomes "born again," (regenerate, transformed in character), he will achieve
         right standing with God.
    (b) If the sinner accepts right standing with God by faith, he will then experience transformation
         of character.
5. (a) We receive right standing with God by faith alone.
    (b) We receive right standing with God by faith which has become active by love.
6. (a) We achieve right standing with God by having Christ live out His life of obedience in us.
    (b) We achieve right standing with God by accepting the fact that He obeyed the law perfectly
          for us.
7. (a) We achieve right standing with God by following Christ's example by the help of His enabling
         grace.
    (b) We follow Christ's example because His life has given us right standing with God.

8. (a) God first pronounces us Good in His sight, then gives us His Spirit to make us good.
    (b) God sends His Spirit to make us good, and then He will pronounce that we are good.
9. (a) Christ's intercession at God's right hand gives us favor in the sight of God.
    (b) It is the indwelling Christ that gives us favor in the sight of God.
10. (a) Only by faith in the doing and dying of Christ can we fully satisfy the claims of the Ten
           Commandments.
      (b) By the power of the Holy Spirit living in us, we can fully satisfy the claims of the
           Ten Commandments.

1.a
2. a
3. a
4. b
5. a
6. b
7. b
8. a
9. a
10. a
------------------------------------------------------

We are declared righteous by faith alone in the imputed righteousness of Christ. The thief on the cross had no time to become more righteous, but the imputed righteousness of Christ is what saved this poor sinner, and when he gets his glorified body, it will be impossible for him to sin again in heaven. This is the way it is for all believers. There is no need for purgatory, or for a certain degree of character perfection in order for God's amazing grace to save us. The Reformers gave their lives for this truth. The only basis for our salvation is faith and trust in the perfect work of Christ for us. We are not made ready for heaven by the work of Christ in us, because this work of sanctification will never be complete this side of heaven, and Rome has always taught this version of sanctification. Look carefully at the questions and answers above for example number 7 above:

From what I read in a few posts above, the RCC position of 7a seems to be the right answer. But it is 7b that is correct.

We obey God out of gratitude for saving us and giving us the perfect righteousness of Christ as a gift of grace. God has declared us righteous , even though we haven't perfected a character that is sinless. All who are saved will be given glorified bodies and minds and will not have the propensity to sin in heaven

The result of this marvelous saving grace is stated in Romans 5:1,2

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God
.
-------------------------------------------------

Stan

Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on May 29, 2009, 02:26:17 AM
The ultimate answer of what makes us fit for heaven was given by Jesus in John 3:1-8:

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

-------------------------------------------

So the only criteria that Jesus gives to enter the kingdom of heaven is that we be born again.  When we are born again, we are positionally seated with Christ in heaven as Ephesians 2 states clearly:

 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
--------------------------------------------------------------
When we are born again, we receive the spirit of adoption according to Romans 8:15,16

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

------------------------------------------------------

We are adopted as His child, and when born again, like a child we grow in grace in the process of sanctification, but a child is not perfect.
 We are always fighting our sinful nature as Paul says in Romans 7:

14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
As even the apostle Paul struggled with sin, and he called himself the chief of sinners, so we all fight this battle on a daily basis. We are delivered from our bodies of death when Christ comes to take us home.

Stan
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 29, 2009, 10:43:09 AM
Guibox and Stan, do you really believe the deadly doctrine that we can continue to tolerate sin in our lives and still be saved? I don't think you really do.  Does the fact that Jesus' death provides for the forgiveness of sins also enable us to continue in sin? Did Jesus actually die so that He can take the disobedient to heaven?  Does the Gospel mean that Christians will be saved in our sins? The complete gospel includes the forgiveness and cleansing from sin and the freedom from the bondage of sin and the empowerment to overcome sin. A half gospel is no gospel at all. To cling to half of the truth is to not have truth at all.

Stan, does being born again mean that we can keep on sinning? Jesus said:
(14) If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

Do you think Paul was tolerating sin in his life near the end of his life when he wrote the words, in 2 Timothy 4:7 "I have fought a good fight, I have kept the faith," ? Do you think he might have made progress in his spiritual walk during his life? Of course.

However, if a Christian dies before Jesus comes, and that person has not apostasized or gone into  a condition of rebellion against God, Jesus can save him and still be "faithful and just." The Christian has been forensically justified and he is making progress in his Christian walk. Jesus was active and progressing in doing His work of cleansing and sanctification in him but was not finished. The person still sometimes failed to do the right thing, he sometimes missed the mark and fell short of God's expectations for him, but God does not cast him aside. He is not rejected and at the second coming, Jesus can say before the universe in a full expression of justice and mercy "He belongs to me!" "He is covered by my robe of righteousness."

One question before the Universe is can God save sinners and exercize justice and still be merciful?
The other question is, is it possible for mankind to live in obedience and compliance with God's requirements and expectations?


(25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it;
(26) That He might sanctify it and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
(27) That He might present it to Himself a glorius church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Ephesians 5: 25-27)

(9) If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1John 1:9)

Is God going to do the cleansing after we get to heaven? Of course not.

(21) To him that overcometh  will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne. (Revelation 3:21)

(24) Now unto Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
(25) To the only wise God our Saviour be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever, Amen. (Jude 24, 25)

Concerning those who are aliveat the second coming, the bible has this to say:]
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they which keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

Please read New Words for Witnessing. It is not a heavy theological treatise, but it makes come good points. It was developed by pr Daniel O'Ffill, the Pastors father.



Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on May 29, 2009, 11:52:20 AM
Larry, the reason WHY we sin is due to our sinful nature, our propensities and inclinations toward evil. These are ingrained in our every fibre, our every cell. Do you not think that a complete change in nature will 'reprogram' us? It is not just simply getting an 'oil change'. Our transformation will be at a cellular level, eliminating all the rust, grime, sludge and 'kinks' that have made us function the way we have. It is not merely a 'body change'.

Then there isn't much hope for those saints who have died before this character change, is there? This is the illogical fallacy of sinless perfection and 'we must have perfect characters before we go to heaven'. There have been MILLIONS who have not achieved this and died.

A repentant heart and the blood of Jesus will forgive those sins, not sinless perfection and personal sanctification achieved without a Mediator. Is the blood of Jesus not sufficient, or must we show that we can stand on our own merits?


Ellen White said that "we need not retain one sinful propensity."  That means the sinful nature can be overcome.

Larry did not say anything that is not plainly stated in the SOP.  Have you read what she says about this subject?

As for those who die before Jesus comes, I will quote Larry's  statement on this, since he said it so well:  "They died before  Jesus was finished with them, but He can claim them as His own.   But He doesn't have that option with those who are alive when he returns. His church must be without spot or wrinkle and all of their sins must be forgiven and overcome or he cannot take them to Heaven."

No one has suggested that anyone can attain character perfection without a mediator.  The perfection of character must take place before the close of probation.  Then the saints are sealed, and must live sinless in the sight of God without a Mediator.  This is all laid out plainly in Great Controversy, and Story of Redemption.  Have you read them?

I don't see how you can come to your conclusions unless you believe in original sin; that is you are born sinning, and don't choose to sin.  Only if sin is a choice can it be said that "we need not retain one sinful propensity."
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on May 29, 2009, 02:15:49 PM
Guibox and Stan, do you really believe the deadly doctrine that we can continue to tolerate sin in our lives and still be saved? I don't think you really do.  Does the fact that Jesus' death provides for the forgiveness of sins also enable us to continue in sin? Did Jesus actually die so that He can take the disobedient to heaven?

You are speaking of willful disobedience and unabashed acceptance of sin and sinful acts in our lives. We are talking about the propensties that our sinful nature grows in us. The times we fall to temptation and make errors. It is ridiculous to think that somehow the last generation will have all these things conquered where they can NEVER slip up.

Even Paul never got to this point as Stan pointed out, and yet he said things like 'he who is of God does not sin'.

 
Does the Gospel mean that Christians will be saved in our sins? The complete gospel includes the forgiveness and cleansing from sin and the freedom from the bondage of sin and the empowerment to overcome sin. A half gospel is no gospel at all. To cling to half of the truth is to not have truth at all.

Yes, it is about surrender to God to allow Him to work in our lives. Nonetheless, we are still human and still have a sinful nature. If God expected full, perfect, and sinless obedience, our entire nature would be changed at conversion. Either God's blood is sufficient for these short comings or we are saved by sanctification. You can't have it both ways.

The whole point of Christ coming to live a perfect life was to do it because we couldn't. Nothing has changed in man's nature from the OT to today, Larry. The Spirit was there to give sinless perfection to the children of God just like you say the last generation will. If we'd expect sinless perfection, surely the patriarchs would have achieved this in their 400+ years of life! Goodness, they had enough time to do it in! And yet we see constant failings from Abraham, Jacob, Moses and David.

If we can do it today by the power of God, then they could have too. We see that this was not so. NOWHERE is the concept of sinless perfection taught or demonstrated in the Bible (especially the OT), despite some of Paul's texts. And Paul made it quite clear that even though he had 'fought the good fight' and KNEW that a crown of righteousness was laid out for him, he could still say that he struggled with sin.

the last generation doesn't have any more advantages than we do. If we can die now not fully sanctified, then they can to. The blood of Jesus to cover our short comings due to our sinful nature will be just as readily available and sufficient for them as it is now.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on May 29, 2009, 02:36:01 PM
It is ridiculous to think that somehow the last generation will have all these things conquered where they can NEVER slip up.


The whole point of Christ coming to live a perfect life was to do it because we couldn't.


the last generation doesn't have any more advantages than we do. If we can die now not fully sanctified, then they can to. The blood of Jesus to cover our short comings due to our sinful nature will be just as readily available and sufficient for them as it is now.


If those who live through the 7 last plagues, after the close of probation, are not without sin, they will not be saved.  Read your GC.  Why is it so ridiculous to believe that there is a unique generation that will live on the earth after the close of probation?  What good is the sealing if it does not also guard those who are saints from "slipping up?"

I thought one of the reason's Jesus that Jesus came and lived a sinless life was to prove that it could be done.  Your statement implies that He had an advantage that we don't have.  It that were true we would be able to cry "unfair" on the day of judgment.  If Christ only showed us how God could live while on earth, what good was it?  But He showed that it is possible for man to live without sin.  Just because we choose to sin does not prove that one cannot choose, through the power of the indwelling Spirit, to live as Jesus did.  That's what the 144,000 will have chosen to do, and that is why they will be sealed.

The fact that the last generation doesn't have any advantages than any other generation (in fact they are confronted by an angrier and more sophisticated devil than Adam had to face) makes their accomplishments that much more extraordinary.  That's why they are singled out in Revelation as a special group, who "follow the Lamb" wherever He goes.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Richard OFfill on May 29, 2009, 02:42:22 PM
A few thoughts,  It seems to me that when we were perfect we wouldn't know it. -- like the man who wrote the book, "Humility and How I Obtained It".

There is a danger perhaps, 1. that it may seem that when we 'arrive' we won't need Jesus anymore. 2. that we like sin and prefer to stay that way as long as we possible can.

 A few years ago I was mulling over the concept of perfection in light of the fact that it is something that can easily divide Christians when it is actually a great truth that should unite us.  I happen to keep a journal.  In trying to resolve the tension between the points of view, I wrote the following which has helped me to understand some of the issues that are involved: There is a difference between Godlikeness and being gods.  God's perfection is the way He is intrinsically.  In Him is life, unborrowed and underived.  Our life is and always will be borrowed and derived.  In Him we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:26).  And this is going to be our permanent state.  Even when we get to heaven we will always have to eat from the tree of life (Revelation 22:2).  God's work in our life is always a perfect work.  He saw what He made, and behold it was very good.  His work in our lives is perfect, yet He is continuing to perfect us.

It has been cited that Jesus will come when His people perfectly reflect His character.  We emphasis the word 'perfectly' and sometimes overlook the significance of the word reflect.  We must never forget that we will always be only reflectors.  He is as it were the sun, we are the moon.  The moon gives a perfect reflection of the sun because it reflects the sun and the sun only.  Yet it is not a total reflection of the sun.  The sun still has more light than the moon can reflect.  Yet the moon itself is reflecting all of the sun it can, given its size and distance from it.  Obviously, if the moon were nearer to the sun, it would reflect more of its light.
 
The moon cannot become a sun because of its nature.  It is combustible and must be content to be a reflector.  To perfectly reflect the character of Christ means that it will be His character that is reflected and not that of another.  Yet it will always be less than Christ because it will be always be a reflection, albeit unobstructed.  As moons are of different sizes, so we as individuals are different.  The reflection of Christ in the lives of His people throughout the ages is always influenced by the size and distancefrom the Son.  Yet the reflection is always perfect because Jesus the perfect Sun of Righteousness is the source of the light.  Though we don't all reflect the same amount of light, like Noah and David of old we serve Him with a perfect heart.
We must always bear in mind that perfection is not established by being compared with something that is imperfect.  Something is called perfect because of its relationship to the standard, not to the broken or inferior.
 
Perfection in the Christian life has to do with the Christian=s relationship to God and His holiness, not with his relationship to sin and the devil.  Sin is another issue.  The goal of the Christian life is not simply to be sinless but to be holy in Christ.  >And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God (Romans 12:2).  Victorious Christian living, therefore, is a means to an end and not an end in itself.  Because of this, we must always see sin as an enemy, because just as the moons relationship to the earth will affect its ability to reflect the sun, so our relationship to the earth will affect our ability to reflect the Sun of Righteousness.
 
I have seven grandchildren.  The newest one is a year old.  She is just learning to walk.  She cannot talk or feed herself or care for even her most basic needs, yet she is perfect.  Not as perfect as she will be as she grows and develops but as perfect as she needs to be given how old she is.  She was born perfect, she is being perfected, and one day she will be perfect.  Do you see?  To those of us who are sons and daughters of God with our hearts perfect toward Him He is working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).  And best of all we have the promise that He who has begun this good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6).

So let's not fight perfection.  Let's go on to perfection.  A perfect God can demand no less than perfection from His people.  Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it. (1 Thessalonians 5:24).  Let us expect to be perfect in Christ.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Richard OFfill on May 29, 2009, 02:59:29 PM
Some more thoughts:

1. I believe there is no sin so strong that Jesus can't break it.

2. There is more to sin than not eating pork.

3. Those who are saved without seeing death will be full of the fruit of the Spirit. To be full of the Holy Spirit would seem to mean that we will never be 'free standing'. How can we ever be more than reflectors. It would seem that the scars in his hands will eternally bind us to him.

4. There is, as I mentioned earlier, the danger that we misinterpret the concept of not needing a mediator anymore. You must have heard of those who say they haven't sinned in two weeks.

5. Why should a person fight the concept of having victory over sin? It would seem to put us on the wrong side of the plan of salvation.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on May 29, 2009, 03:30:03 PM

So let's not fight perfection.  Let's go on to perfection.  A perfect God can demand no less than perfection from His people.  Faithful is He that calleth you, who also will do it. (1 Thessalonians 5:24).  Let us expect to be perfect in Christ.


Amen, Pastor.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on May 29, 2009, 03:31:11 PM
Some more thoughts:

1. I believe there is no sin so strong that Jesus can't break it.


5. Why should a person fight the concept of having victory over sin? It would seem to put us on the wrong side of the plan of salvation.


Amen, again.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on May 29, 2009, 04:58:20 PM
It seems that the word "perfect" has always been problematic in the discussion of sin. I don't know Greek or Hebrew, but I have read that our our Western concept of perfection is derived from ancient Greek philosophy which defines their word for perfect as meaning ultimate flawlessness. That was not part of the Hebrew mind set. The Bible writers, most of whom were Jews, held to the Hebrew meaning of perfection which means something that is mature, finished, or complete in its development.

I think that is consistent with what the pastor has posted.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: CONCRETE on June 05, 2009, 12:16:09 PM
Those who go through the time of trouble, will not have a Mediator.  They will not be sinning.  Probation will have closed.  They will not know that probation has closed.  They will not say that they are without sin.  But they must be without sin or they will not be translated.

Then why does Hebrews say this?

Hebrews 7:24-25 (Amplified Bible)

24 But He holds His priesthood unchangeably, because He lives on forever.

25 Therefore He is able also to save to the uttermost (completely, perfectly, finally, and for all time and eternity) those who come to God through Him, since He is always living to make petition to God and intercede with Him and intervene for them.

Am I misinterpreting the words always, completely, perfectly, finally, and for all time and eternity?



I assume that you've read the last few chapters of Great Controversy.  It's pretty clear from even a quick read, that those who survive the time of trouble will, by the power of the Holy Spirit, have given up sin.  Otherwise God could not say, "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still."

Mica 7 (Amp)
9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against Him, until He pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold His righteous deliverance.

This tells me I am righteous by the grace of Jesus, not on my own accord.

1 John (Amplified Bible)

8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
10 If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].

I haven't found anywhere where the Bible says this changes.




Without God's grace we would not even have a chance to be justified, much less be sanctified.  God's grace gives us that which we do not deserve--a second chance.

Ephesians 1 (Amplified Bible)

7 In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood, the remission (forgiveness) of our offenses (shortcomings and trespasses), in accordance with the riches and the generosity of His gracious favor,
8 Which He lavished upon us in every kind of wisdom and understanding (practical insight and prudence).

No gift is deserved, regardless of the circumstances. No wonder the concept of grace is so simple.

Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on June 05, 2009, 04:42:33 PM
I gather, from your post that you do not believe what Ellen White has written in Great Controversy.  Because she says the opposite of what you have interpreted Scripture to mean.  If I have misunderstood your position on the SOP, please correct me.  The fact that neither you nor guibox will address my references to what is written in GC is somewhat disturbing.  Either you accept what she has written or you do not. 

Without going into a involved study of Greek, I believe the time element implied in the words you have inserted as synonyms for "uttermost" is dependent on the nature of that to which they refer; in this case "those who come to God through Him.''  After the close of probation no one can come to God.  Their characters have become unchangeable, as stated in Rev. 22:11.

Again you misunderstand the nature of the 144,000.  They are not righteous of their own accord, neither do they claim to be without sin (as I have stated at least once before on this thread).  No one has even hinted at that in this thread.  But God sees that they have perfected their characters through the power of the indwelling Spirit, and He declares that they are without spot or wrinkle.  But, since there is no longer a Mediator after the close of probation, it stands to reason that they cannot sin thereafter, or there would be no possibility of forgiveness.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: V. Hahn on June 05, 2009, 08:06:24 PM
In Philip Hamman's paper, "New Words for Witnessing" which Pastor O'Ffill has available here on his website (http://www.revivalsermons.org/witnessing/index.shtml), there is this paragraph (page 9):

"I want you to use your imagination for a moment" I said. "Satan calls all his angels together for a meeting." He tells them, "We lost in heaven, we were cast out for being disobedient to the will of God.  We lost at the cross, we couldn't get Jesus to come down.  We lost at the tomb, we couldn't keep Jesus in it.  But we can win in Christ's judgment of the living.  That last day generation that are alive when Jesus comes."  "How can we win in the judgment?" his angels reply.  Satan says, "By going out into all the world and bringing pressure on the living.  Keep them being disobedient as we were.  Then if Christ in His judgment of the living translates or raptures one soul who's not in repentance and obedience to the will of God, then he has to take me and all my angels back to heaven."  You see God has a problem, he can not reapture a disobedient people.  If He did Satan would have a case and Jesus would have to take Satan and his angels' back to heaven. You might say Christ is in Judgement in how He handles the sin problem.  Christ can not translate a commandment breaking church.  Satan's life insurance is to keep you and me disobedient to God's will.


Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on June 07, 2009, 04:51:26 PM
Will we have a period of time after we are in heaven to overcome our character defects?
Our characters consist of our thoughts and feelings. That would include our motives. The Bible tells us that our physical bodies will be changed "like unto His glorius body" but the Bible does not tell us that our characters will be changed. If that were so, then everyone could be saved.
For those who die before He comes, Jesus can save all who were cooperating with Him in His work of sanctification in them. He can say "I wasn't finished with them, but I was making progress. They are mine!"


This is based on material from "New Words For Witnessing" which can be read or downloaded from the home page of this website.

Larry,

I just read the PDF you referred to:

http://www.revivalsermons.org/witnessing/witness.pdf

These are called "words for witnessing"

I read through page after page trying to count the number of scriptures used for witnessing, and there were about three separate texts in three separate chapters of Revelation, and none of the texts were fully quoted in context. Hamman was using a lot of philosophical arguments and words, but so little scripture.  This really bothers me.

Romans 10:17:

 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
------------------------------------------
So, if faith comes by hearing, then it will be through proclaiming scripture, and not logical and common sense argument, although these arguments are to be used in conjunction with studying scripture.

Larry, the quote I highlighted in bold above seems to discount the importance of the meaning of the new birth, and what it means to be born again. When we are born again by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit, we are new creatures or creations through and through  Body and Soul.

2 Cor. 5:17:

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
------------------------------------------------

If we are new creatures and all things are new, then why would this only refer to our physical bodies as being changed? Our souls (or minds and characters) are also changed. God literally performs a miracle on our hearts when we are truly born again, and gives us the desire to follow after Him, to pray, and study His Word.

1 Corinthians 15:51-56, a beautiful passage which is also sung in Handel's Messiah, and gives me goosebumps every time I hear it says this:

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
----------------------------------
Where does the above passage only assume that our physical bodies are being changed? When the word "We" is referred to this has to mean not only our physical bodies, but our minds and souls. Humans don't exist like animals as only having bodies, but we also have souls.

Why would God have a double standard for salvation? In other words, those who died imperfect can be made perfect, but those who happen to be alive at the second coming must have a different standard of perfection to be saved? I am sorry, this sounds like a salvation by works system for those who are translated vs those who died prior to becoming perfect?

Stan
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on June 07, 2009, 05:36:30 PM
Why would God have a double standard for salvation? In other words, those who died imperfect can be made perfect, but those who happen to be alive at the second coming must have a different standard of perfection to be saved? I am sorry, this sounds like a salvation by works system for those who are translated vs those who died prior to becoming perfect?

Stan

My thoughts exactly, Stan and why I keep harping on this aspect. It seems ridiculous that people who die tomorrow are held to a much looser standard of salvation than those in the final generation. I have yet to see two methods of salvation in the scripture.

Plain and simple: if those who die today need not have character perfection but a right heart with God to be saved, then those before Christ's coming have the same opportunity. On the other side, if the final generation must be sinlessly perfect due to the argument that we must have character perfection to be 'safe to save' and 'allowed into heaven', then those who have died in the past and die today cannot go to heaven.

Either we must have character perfectionfor all by sanctification in our lifetimes before we die, regardless of how long that, is to make into heaven or we don't.

This double standard is not supported in the scriptures. This is the error of the last generation theology and why so many of our SDA scholars do not support it.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 07, 2009, 11:26:28 PM
Stan and guibox, the New Words for Witnessing is intended to be a tool for conversational witnessing. Thats why multiple Bible texts are not used.  Its for "witnessing in the market place," as they say.

Guibox, those who expect to attain a state of essential flawlessness do not understand the mindset of the Bible writers when using the word perfection.  Please read my previous post on that.

Stan, do you actually think that it is not necessary to overcome sin, and we can just keep on sinning and wait for Jesus to come, and after He comes He will miraculously cause us to not sin anymore? That sounds like a "sin and be saved" theology.

We will definately be changed in our bodies which includes our brains. As Steven Bohr once said in a sermon, God will re-format our hard drives when He comes. We will be different, but our characters, in terms of our loyalty to God and our surrender to His will in our lives will have been established before He comes. He will have finished the work He started in us.

There is a high standard for everyone who will enter heaven whether they die first, or whether they will go through the times leading up to the decree "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still.  (Rev. 22 11) That verse describes all, both saved and unsaved who are alive when Jesus returns. There will be only two groups. The decision is made before Christ returns. There will be no forgiveness of sin after that point. See Dan. 12:1

(25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;
(26) That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
(27) That He might present it to Himself, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph. 5:25-27)

(2) Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as he is.
(3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifeth himself, even as He is pure.
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law.
(5) And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.
(6) Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.  (1 John 3: 2-6)

And we mustn't forget 1 John 2:1If any man sin, we have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ, the Righteous. (Very significant text)

 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8,9)

(24) Now to Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless [unblameable--Strongs 299] before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, (Jude 24)

If we plan to be "saved by grace through faith," we must have at least enough faith to believe the promise of Jude 24.

Concerning those who die before Jesus comes, if their name is "written in the Lambs book of life," they will be saved. I do not believe that God casts aside a born again person when he makes a mistake, misses the mark, has lapses in his behavior, has times when he fails to meet God's standard of holiness. We all do that at times, but if we are not in rebellion against God or in apostasy, we are still counted as His. That holds true if we die.

However, as we approach the end, according to Scripture, we will be entering a period of time when God's people will be in a unique situation unlike any time in the past history of the world. In order to have a church "without spot or wrinkle" His people will be fiercely tried and will meet deceptions that "will deceive the very elect if that were possible" and will undergo persecution and villification and will be accounted by the nations as outside of the protection of the law. and worthy of death. But there will be a group that will remain true to God and will see Christ coming in the clouds.

I am not able to even in my wildest imaginings believe that a person will be able to go through that period and at the same time indulge in his favorite cherished sins unforgiven and with a guilty conscience, and yet be saved. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I overcame and am set down with my Father on His throne. (Rev. 3:21)

(6) And the Lord passed before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
(7) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and sin, and will by no means clear the guilty,... (Exodus 34:7)
 





Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on June 08, 2009, 07:28:53 AM
Amen Larry ... good post  :-)
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: CONCRETE on June 08, 2009, 08:36:59 AM
I gather, from your post that you do not believe what Ellen White has written in Great Controversy.  Because she says the opposite of what you have interpreted Scripture to mean.  If I have misunderstood your position on the SOP, please correct me.  The fact that neither you nor guibox will address my references to what is written in GC is somewhat disturbing.  Either you accept what she has written or you do not. 

Without going into a involved study of Greek, I believe the time element implied in the words you have inserted as synonyms for "uttermost" is dependent on the nature of that to which they refer; in this case "those who come to God through Him.''  After the close of probation no one can come to God.  Their characters have become unchangeable, as stated in Rev. 22:11.

Again you misunderstand the nature of the 144,000.  They are not righteous of their own accord, neither do they claim to be without sin (as I have stated at least once before on this thread).  No one has even hinted at that in this thread.  But God sees that they have perfected their characters through the power of the indwelling Spirit, and He declares that they are without spot or wrinkle.  But, since there is no longer a Mediator after the close of probation, it stands to reason that they cannot sin thereafter, or there would be no possibility of forgiveness.

I like to use the amplified bible because it does address the words "lost in translation". The words or sentences used in parenthesis are additional words to describe and apply meaning to the English translation (Hebrew in the OT and Greek in the NT). No need to go into an involved Greek study here. I do have issues with a few things of EGW and thats why I like to examine them using the bible. If I am wrong, then I will have to come to that conclusion on my own and admit to it. However, to reinforce a biblical principle using EGW should not be necessary, as I believe God's word does not need to be scientifically broken down, or have a theologian to interpret it. If the common man can't study the bible (without supplements) and come to a solid conclusion, then we are all in a bad way. To say that the bible needs clarification through EGW could be considered as saying the bible is flawed and fallable. I know people don't say that directly, but implications in tenor tend to show that.

I will say that I am not well versed in EGW writings and don't have a need to be. On the other, hand I can read, write and understand plain English and have questions about some of EGW writings. When this happens the only place to go is the word of God. I appreciate those, on this forum, who extensively use the Bible to support their statements.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 08, 2009, 09:47:01 AM
Concrete, it seems that you do not accept No. 17 of the Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It states:

"One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lords Messenger, her writings are  a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."

I would suggest you at least invest some time and study into her teachings, as well as the evidence for her prophetic role. It is hardly fair to yourself to toss aside something that has been a great blessing to multitudes by saying "I am not well versed in EGW writings and don't have a need to be."

(20) Despise not prophesyings.
(21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  (1Thessalonians 5:20,21)

(9) And he said unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marraige supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
(10) And I fell at his feet to worship him, [the angel] And he said unto me, See thou do it not; I am thy fellow servant and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus; worship God; for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophesy. (Revelation 19: 9,10)

So it is important that we understand that the Spirit of Prophecy is one of the identifying characteristics of God's people at the end of time. Whidh few would dispute the fact that we are presently in that time.   

Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on June 08, 2009, 12:18:36 PM

I will say that I am not well versed in EGW writings and don't have a need to be. On the other, hand I can read, write and understand plain English and have questions about some of EGW writings. When this happens the only place to go is the word of God. I appreciate those, on this forum, who extensively use the Bible to support their statements.

If there had not been a genuine need God would not have given her the gift of prophecy.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on June 08, 2009, 12:20:48 PM
There is a high standard for everyone who will enter heaven whether they die first, or whether they will go through the times leading up to the decree

According to last generation theology, there ISN'T a higher standard for those who will 'die first'. Those who die first may not have
achieved character perfection where as the last generation is expected to. This is the double standard that Stan and I are talking about which hasn't been properly addressed by yourself.

Larry, bottom line:

1) If all we take to heaven is our character, and
2) merely our bodies and not our character is what is changed at the second coming of Christ and
3) those who have not achieved sinless perfection at the time of trouble cannot be translated

then the logical conclusion is:
Nobody who has died before who has not achieved sinless character perfection can be translated

It's very simple logic that seems to be skated over or ignored by some here.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still.  (Rev. 22 11) That verse describes all, both saved and unsaved who are alive when Jesus returns. There will be only two groups. The decision is made before Christ returns. There will be no forgiveness of sin after that point. See Dan. 12:1

Has it occurred to you that this is not speaking about teeth gritting, sinless perfection and flawless behavior but those who have adopted the righteous robe of the Lamb? In other words, there is no more choice to accept the blood of Christ and salvation by grace through faith? This makes perfect sense as the probation is not to be sinlessly perfect but to make a CHOICE. Accept God's gift or reject it. This text is saying that there is no more chance to accept Christ and become righteous. If we are saved by grace and not of works, then it behooves us to interpret the term 'righteous' accordingly. We are saved by the righteousness of Christ, not our own through sanctification. This verse can easily apply to that.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: CONCRETE on June 08, 2009, 12:30:00 PM
Concrete, it seems that you do not accept No. 17 of the Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It states:

"One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As the Lords Messenger, her writings are  a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."

I would suggest you at least invest some time and study into her teachings, as well as the evidence for her prophetic role. It is hardly fair to yourself to toss aside something that has been a great blessing to multitudes by saying "I am not well versed in EGW writings and don't have a need to be."

(20) Despise not prophesyings.
(21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  (1Thessalonians 5:20,21)

(9) And he said unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marraige supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
(10) And I fell at his feet to worship him, [the angel] And he said unto me, See thou do it not; I am thy fellow servant and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus; worship God; for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophesy. (Revelation 19: 9,10)

So it is important that we understand that the Spirit of Prophecy is one of the identifying characteristics of God's people at the end of time. Whidh few would dispute the fact that we are presently in that time.   



Guess you could honestly say I'm "proving all things" and being totally honest as some have asked me to be on here. Larry, so what if you think I don't accept point 17? Quite a judgment you passed here...seems anything that questions EGW is a soft spot for you personally...how dare I question? So you must be saying I am not one of God's people? Seems any kind of questioning here is considered blatant rejection of EGW.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: CONCRETE on June 08, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
If there had not been a genuine need God would not have given her the gift of prophecy.

As you have asked me about my stance with EGW which should be clear to you in the above threads, so please answer this; So you are saying God said his word is fallable and needed more understanding or an "overhaul"? Your statement brings across a sentiment that the bible has some issues.

I would like to say that from what I have read in scripture that EGW is not, and I'll repeat, IS NOT a salvation issue. Will it define a people? Most certainly and it already does. Jesus is my savior and has extended his grace to me for believing in him, nothing more...FULL STOP!
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on June 08, 2009, 12:39:44 PM

Plain and simple: if those who die today need not have character perfection but a right heart with God to be saved, then those before Christ's coming have the same opportunity. On the other side, if the final generation must be sinlessly perfect due to the argument that we must have character perfection to be 'safe to save' and 'allowed into heaven', then those who have died in the past and die today cannot go to heaven.

Either we must have character perfectionfor all by sanctification in our lifetimes before we die, regardless of how long that, is to make into heaven or we don't.

This double standard is not supported in the scriptures. This is the error of the last generation theology and why so many of our SDA scholars do not support it.

There are two possibilities:  either you are confused in you understanding of the remnant, or Ellen White is wrong.  I happen to believe that she was inspired by the Holy Spirit.  Therefore I accept what she has written in Great Controversy regarding the character of the remnant.  There is no double standard in the idea that those who are translated at the second coming will have reached a higher level than those who have not.  I don't profess to completely understand all the whys and wherefores, but I don't have to.  Everyone who is saved will have died at different levels on the road to sanctification.  One can hardly say that the thief on the cross had reached the same rung on the ladder as Moses had when he died.  But they had one thing in common:  total surrender to Christ.  The remnant are similar in that they are totally surrendered also, but they are different in that they must live without a Mediator after the close of probation, something no one has ever had to do before.  The fact that we are promised that there will be no temptation that will be beyond our capability to resist, shows that sin can be overcome.  If it is not, we have no one to blame but ourselves.  We are not told specifically, but I suspect that Enoch and Elijah had both overcome sin in their lives, or God would not have translated them.  They would never have claimed to  be without sin, but God saw that they had become Christlike, and therefore, fit for heaven.

If, as you say, many of our SDA "scholars" reject what is written in GC regarding the remnant, then they are rejecting the SOP, and should find another church which is more in line with their theology.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on June 08, 2009, 12:52:48 PM
As you have asked me about my stance with EGW which should be clear to you in the above threads, so please answer this; So you are saying God said his word is fallable and needed more understanding or an "overhaul"? Your statement brings across a sentiment that the bible has some issues.

I would like to say that from what I have read in scripture that EGW is not, and I'll repeat, IS NOT a salvation issue. Will it define a people? Most certainly and it already does. Jesus is my savior and has extended his grace to me for believing in him, nothing more...FULL STOP!

Neither Larry nor I have even hinted that God's word is fallible.  It's not the Bible that has issues, but mankind, after centuries of misinterpretating it, has issues.  There was nothing wrong with the OT, but the Jews had so misinterpreted and misapplied it, that Jesus had to clear up the mess.  There is nothing wrong with the Bible, but after nearly 2000 years of the Christian era, there was mass confusion.  God raised up the SDA Church and provided a lesser light to lead us back to the truths already contained in Scripture, but which had often been lost sight of.  The SOP has not added to Scripture; it has shed much light on it.  We reject it at our peril.  I will go further (and Pastor O'Ffill covers this well in one of his sermons).  The SOP was given to us to keep us from going off on a tangent like we see the other churches doing.  We have been told what to expect at the end, and this knowledge, along with a sincere love of the truth, will keep us from being deceived.  Therefore, not taking Ellen White seriously could very well become a salvation issue when every wind of doctrine is blowing and everyone except the elect is deceived.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 08, 2009, 03:23:50 PM
Guess you could honestly say I'm "proving all things" and being totally honest as some have asked me to be on here. Larry, so what if you think I don't accept point 17? Quite a judgment you passed here...seems anything that questions EGW is a soft spot for you personally...how dare I question? So you must be saying I am not one of God's people? Seems any kind of questioning here is considered blatant rejection of EGW.
Concrete, I passed no judgement. You made it clear what you think of EGW. I don't understand how you can "prove all things" in regards to Ellen White if you never read what she wrote. What you do with the Spirit of Prophecy is between you and God so long as you comply with the rules of this forum.  We all need to keep this on a kind and curteous level. Please avoid making provoking statements.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 08, 2009, 03:29:25 PM
According to last generation theology, there ISN'T a higher standard for those who will 'die first'. Those who die first may not have
achieved character perfection where as the last generation is expected to. This is the double standard that Stan and I are talking about which hasn't been properly addressed by yourself.

Larry, bottom line:

1) If all we take to heaven is our character, and
2) merely our bodies and not our character is what is changed at the second coming of Christ and
3) those who have not achieved sinless perfection at the time of trouble cannot be translated

then the logical conclusion is:
Nobody who has died before who has not achieved sinless character perfection can be translated

It's very simple logic that seems to be skated over or ignored by some here.

Has it occurred to you that this is not speaking about teeth gritting, sinless perfection and flawless behavior but those who have adopted the righteous robe of the Lamb? In other words, there is no more choice to accept the blood of Christ and salvation by grace through faith? This makes perfect sense as the probation is not to be sinlessly perfect but to make a CHOICE. Accept God's gift or reject it. This text is saying that there is no more chance to accept Christ and become righteous. If we are saved by grace and not of works, then it behooves us to interpret the term 'righteous' accordingly. We are saved by the righteousness of Christ, not our own through sanctification. This verse can easily apply to that.
Guibox, It doesn't seem like you are reading what I posted. I don't think I can make it any clearer It looks like we will have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Jim on June 08, 2009, 08:46:45 PM
It appears to me that some doubt Mrs. White's counsel as coming from God. Either she is a prophet and her writings should be followed or she isn't and all of her writings should be tossed out. It really is as simple as that.

However, I also realize that in order to bypass that logic that some are now saying that NT prophets are some how less authoritative than OT prophets. Just another ingenious way to cause doubt.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 08, 2009, 09:46:28 PM
It appears to me that some doubt Mrs. White's counsel as coming from God. Either she is a prophet and her writings should be followed or she isn't and all of her writings should be tossed out. It really is as simple as that.

However, I also realize that in order to bypass that logic that some are now saying that NT prophets are some how less authoritative than OT prophets. Just another ingenious way to cause doubt.
Jim, I have failed again in my job as moderator. Pastor O'Ffill has asked me to  to keep the discussions on topic. He has also counseled us to avoid discussing Ellen White if she is made a point of contention. I am guilty on both counts. So I guess I will be forced to ban myself, but the computer wont let me.  :-D Oh Well!!
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on June 09, 2009, 12:29:10 AM

Stan, do you actually think that it is not necessary to overcome sin, and we can just keep on sinning and wait for Jesus to come, and after He comes He will miraculously cause us to not sin anymore? That sounds like a "sin and be saved" theology.

(25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;

I am not able to even in my wildest imaginings believe that a person will be able to go through that period and at the same time indulge in his favorite cherished sins unforgiven and with a guilty conscience, and yet be saved. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I overcame and am set down with my Father on His throne. (Rev. 3:21)


Hi Larry,

 First of all the commandment for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church, is just as valid as any of the 10 commandments. It is interesting how easy it is to focus on the basic important 10 commandments, but somehow not realize the high standard of righteousness that New Testament Christianity demands. I believe that I am trying hard to love my wife even in her current state of disabiltiy as posted elsewhere on here, but I know I fall far short of what is required by the command:   Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it;.

The kind of sacrificial love that Christ gave to the church, could never be matched by any human on this earth. In order to fulfill this command perfectly, we need the perfect imputed righteousness of Christ.

Larry, I think you know by now that I don't believe "we can just keep on sinning and wait for Jesus to come," as you stated above. We don't live with a rebellious heart of disobedience to God if we are truly born again. I think the problem lies in our differences in what we define as sin. If sin is only the gross breaking of the Decalogue, then one might have a point. But the demands of what God requires of us goes so far beyond the Decalogue. Let's just start with the fruit of the spirit as Pastor so often refers to.

How many of us live up to the demands of 1 Cor. 13--the love chapter?   Or how many of us manifest the fruit of the spirit perfectly in Galatians 5? If we don't measure up then we are guilty of falling short of what God requires.

Only the Lord Jesus Christ lived a perfect life and measured up perfectly to what God commands. Our only hope is to put our trust and faith in Him, as He has promised to keep us unto eternal life as in John 10:28-30. It is only His perfect imputed righteousness that will allow us to stand in the judgment as perfect in Him.

As the old hymn says:

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus' name.
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.
----------------------------------------------------------

Soli Deo Gloria!

Stan
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on June 09, 2009, 01:20:25 AM
Just a few more points regarding what true righteousness means.

Jesus was asked by a pharisee in Matthew 22:35-40:

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.   38This is the first and great commandment.

 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
------------------------------------------

I find it fascinating that Jesus didn't quote from the Decalogue. Instead he quoted from Deuteronomy 6:5

5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

 and from Leviticus 19:18:

but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many of us truly love the Lord with all our hearts and all our minds, and with all of our souls?  This is what it means to be perfect.

Then Jesus introduced a new commandment in John 13:34,35:

34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another
----------------------------------
It is so easy to focus on external rules such as abstaining from meats and cola drinks, but miss what is really important.

Think about what our Lord is commanding.  We are to love each other with such a sacrifical love to equal the way in which Christ loved us and gave Himself for us.

This is what it means to achieve sinless perfection, and I welcome anyone to step forward and claim that they are about to reach this standard before Christ comes. This is what it means to reflect the righteousness of Christ perfectly.

Stan
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on June 09, 2009, 06:49:17 AM
It appears to me that some doubt Mrs. White's counsel as coming from God. Either she is a prophet and her writings should be followed or she isn't and all of her writings should be tossed out. It really is as simple as that.

Unfortunately Jim it is not that cut and dried despite what the conservatives and former SDAs would like us to think. Willie White, AG Daniells, WW Prescott, Edward Heppenstall, Fritz Guy, George Knight, Graeme Bradford, Arthur Patrick and Samuele Bacchiocchi among many have shown that this mentality is the WRONG way to view inspiration and Sister White. Many scholars outside Adventism agree that the gift of prophecy WAS different from the OT to the NT.

The all or nothing approach hasn't worked as the fruits of cultic mentality and bitter anti-SDA/EGW diatribe throughout the years has shown.

sorry Larry...back on topic.  :-D
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: V. Hahn on June 09, 2009, 08:20:22 AM
Guibox said, 
Quote
Has it occurred to you that this is not speaking about teeth gritting, sinless perfection and flawless behavior...

Gui, I don't think anyone here is talking about "that" kind of perfection.

I just know that I need to submit to God and His will and surrender to Him moment by moment, day by day.  Christ can then sanctify me.

It's Christ's righteousness, not mine.  His strength, not mine.  My part is to follow where He leads and obey.  God even puts that desire in my heart!

It's not, "I will be perfect if it kills me."  It's, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me!"  Praise God!




Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on June 09, 2009, 08:26:43 AM
Unfortunately Jim it is not that cut and dried despite what the conservatives and former SDAs would like us to think. Willie White, AG Daniells, WW Prescott, Edward Heppenstall, Fritz Guy, George Knight, Graeme Bradford, Arthur Patrick and Samuele Bacchiocchi among many have shown that this mentality is the WRONG way to view inspiration and Sister White. Many scholars outside Adventism agree that the gift of prophecy WAS different from the OT to the NT.

The all or nothing approach hasn't worked as the fruits of cultic mentality and bitter anti-SDA/EGW diatribe throughout the years has shown.

sorry Larry...back on topic.  :-D

gui,
You sound angry in this post.  What is wrong?  Start a new thread and come forward with your beliefs and why you believe such rather than jumping in here and there and confusing the rest of us.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 09, 2009, 10:33:03 AM
Just a few more points regarding what true righteousness means.

Jesus was asked by a pharisee in Matthew 22:35-40:

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

 36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.   38This is the first and great commandment.

 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
------------------------------------------

I find it fascinating that Jesus didn't quote from the Decalogue. Instead he quoted from Deuteronomy 6:5

5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

 and from Leviticus 19:18:

but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

How many of us truly love the Lord with all our hearts and all our minds, and with all of our souls?  This is what it means to be perfect.

Then Jesus introduced a new commandment in John 13:34,35:

34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another
----------------------------------
It is so easy to focus on external rules such as abstaining from meats and cola drinks, but miss what is really important.

Think about what our Lord is commanding.  We are to love each other with such a sacrifical love to equal the way in which Christ loved us and gave Himself for us.

This is what it means to achieve sinless perfection, and I welcome anyone to step forward and claim that they are about to reach this standard before Christ comes. This is what it means to reflect the righteousness of Christ perfectly.

Stan
Stan, I agree that there is a lot more to keeping God's Law than abstaining from meat and cola drinks. Focusing on keeping the letter of the commandments without the spirit of them is not obedience.  Jesus was not dismissing the Ten Commandments when he gave the two great principles upon which they are based. It was He who said I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Mal. 3:6) Paul's statement should have settled the matter once and for all, when he wrote Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) But then then, how do we get around  that pesky problem of the Sabbath?

It almost sounds like you are saying we don't have to obey the law because the two principles that Jesus gave makes us more righteous than the law requires, and which lifts us above the mere Ten Commandments. It is a kind of righteousness by forensic transcendence that saves us.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: guibox on June 09, 2009, 10:47:56 AM
gui,
You sound angry in this post.  What is wrong?  Start a new thread and come forward with your beliefs and why you believe such rather than jumping in here and there and confusing the rest of us.

Sorry newbie. I'm not trying to sound angry in this post. I have talked about this before but unfortunately, the mods in the past have a job to do and have felt that this was too divisive. Topics have become locked or posts deleted. I don't want to put Larry and others in positions where they feel they need to start sanctioning and deleting as this does cause hard feelings.

I don't feel like I'm being angry but this topic does frustrate me. I have seen the fruits of both sides and they are confusing and tearing apart the church and have for many years.  Our youth today have chosen to treat EGW like an absentee relative that shows up every now and then because they are confused by the so many different sides and arguments both for and against her. They'd rather abandon her if they are not given some sort of middle ground.

When faced with an 'all or nothing' approach, sadly, many of them would rather choose 'nothing' just like our former-Adventist brothers and sisters.

And it frustrates me that this middle ground is ridiculed, ignored and slandered by both sides when it needs to be heard. AG Daniells and the rest of the 1919 GC committee felt the same way and pretty much prophesied the situation we are in today because it has not been properly addressed and dealt with.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: CONCRETE on June 09, 2009, 11:44:55 AM
Concrete, I passed no judgment. You made it clear what you think of EGW. I don't understand how you can "prove all things" in regards to Ellen White if you never read what she wrote. What you do with the Spirit of Prophecy is between you and God so long as you comply with the rules of this forum.  We all need to keep this on a kind and courteous level. Please avoid making provoking statements.

Not well versed does not constitute "never" read what EGW wrote. Quite contrary. I guess I would like to see you take issue with my biblical support for my statements and refute my statements with scripture rather than point out a "direction" you think I am heading. You may not have passed judgment directly but you implications and message was clear. You response was to take issue with me and my statements rather that taking my support and refuting it. Provoking only happens when you allow it, almost like saying, "you made me angry" but provoking I did not.

Raven,

Thanks for your comments!
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on June 09, 2009, 04:53:36 PM
Sorry newbie. I'm not trying to sound angry in this post. I have talked about this before but unfortunately, the mods in the past have a job to do and have felt that this was too divisive. Topics have become locked or posts deleted. I don't want to put Larry and others in positions where they feel they need to start sanctioning and deleting as this does cause hard feelings.

I don't feel like I'm being angry but this topic does frustrate me. I have seen the fruits of both sides and they are confusing and tearing apart the church and have for many years.  Our youth today have chosen to treat EGW like an absentee relative that shows up every now and then because they are confused by the so many different sides and arguments both for and against her. They'd rather abandon her if they are not given some sort of middle ground.

When faced with an 'all or nothing' approach, sadly, many of them would rather choose 'nothing' just like our former-Adventist brothers and sisters.

And it frustrates me that this middle ground is ridiculed, ignored and slandered by both sides when it needs to be heard. AG Daniells and the rest of the 1919 GC committee felt the same way and pretty much prophesied the situation we are in today because it has not been properly addressed and dealt with.


Okay, this is good ... tell us your perspective and why and start a new thread...  entitled how ever you want.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on June 09, 2009, 10:28:10 PM

It almost sounds like you are saying we don't have to obey the law because the two principles that Jesus gave makes us more righteous than the law requires, and which lifts us above the mere Ten Commandments. It is a kind of righteousness by forensic transcendence that saves us.


Please Larry, would you kindly point out the phrase above where I said we didn't have to obey the law?  I can't believe you construed my post this way. Why would Jesus not go to the Decalogue when asked what the greatest commandment in the law was?  The Decalogue is where we start in obeying God, but Jesus was simply pointing out that true righteousness goes far beyond.  It seems Larry you are reading things in my posts that are not there, or not intended, and you are not answering many of the issues I did raise.

I wonder if we all were talking face to face, rather in print, if we would come up with the same impressions.

However, this thread is quite interesting to read and this discussion is helpful.

Stan
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 09, 2009, 11:20:42 PM
Please Larry, would you kindly point out the phrase above where I said we didn't have to obey the law?  I can't believe you construed my post this way. Why would Jesus not go to the Decalogue when asked what the greatest commandment in the law was?  The Decalogue is where we start in obeying God, but Jesus was simply pointing out that true righteousness goes far beyond.  It seems Larry you are reading things in my posts that are not there, or not intended, and you are not answering many of the issues I did raise.

I wonder if we all were talking face to face, rather in print, if we would come up with the same impressions.

However, this thread is quite interesting to read and this discussion is helpful.

Stan
Stan, I'm sorry I misunderstood where you were coming from. In that case I don't think we have any disagreement on this. You are right. Jesus made it very clear that a mere outward obedience to the law means nothing if a peson has not been born again and had a change of heart, and love your neighbor as yourself and so on. His definition of adultry as looking at a woman and lusting after her is as clear as it can be. I must have thought you were going somewhere else with your previous two posts, because I don't see how the definition of sin can be misunderstood. 

BTW, it might be good to review the different connotations that the word "sin" has  as it appears in the original Hebrew and Greek. There are actually a few different words that are all translated as "sin" that vary in their meaning. It is all "sin" but there may important implications that are involved.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Deborah Risinger on June 10, 2009, 12:59:45 PM
As I wrestle with sin on a daily bases.....I am reminded, that what "may be perfection" to my understanding ...may be different from the next person.

Also...striving "for perfection" can lead to a "do" religion.

Striving "in" the relationship with Christ, will continually cause me some distress (because I know what I am) and also bring such "relief" because I know Who and what kind of a Person God is. 

These kinds of conversations will forever be "open ended" and need to remain that way.....God would have us continue to seek His heart.seek "His company" as we walk through this land....the "perfection stuff" I would say is His problem in each of us.  He is very good at solving problems.....(a little levity...)

God's Blessings'
Deborah  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on June 10, 2009, 02:12:56 PM
It seems that the word "perfect" has always been problematic in the discussion of sin. I don't know Greek or Hebrew, but I have read that our our Western concept of perfection is derived from ancient Greek philosophy which defines their word for perfect as meaning ultimate flawlessness. That was not part of the Hebrew mind set. The Bible writers, most of whom were Jews, held to the Hebrew meaning of perfection which means something that is mature, finished, or complete in its development.

I think that is consistent with what the pastor has posted.
Deborah, you are right in your post about the word "perfect."  Speaking for myself, some are not undertanding on this thread about what I mean by the word "perfect" as related to discussions about salvation. I. for one,  do not mean "utterly without flaws of any sort." I believe that the Bible writers had the Hebrew mind-set in mind as stated above when they speak of man's prefection. I think an understanding of this would eliminate some of the arguments about the biblical conditions for our salvation.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on June 10, 2009, 04:48:58 PM
Deborah, you are right in your post about the word "perfect."  Speaking for myself, some are not undertanding on this thread about what I mean by the word "perfect" as related to discussions about salvation. I. for one,  do not mean "utterly without flaws of any sort." I believe that the Bible writers had the Hebrew mind-set in mind as stated above when they speak of man's prefection. I think an understanding of this would eliminate some of the arguments about the biblical conditions for our salvation.

Seems to me I remember reading that the underlying meaning of the word which is often translated "perfect" is "mature."  It is not to be confused with the absolute perfection of God, which humans can never achieve.  By that I do not mean that they will never reach a point of being without sin (which is still not perfect in the absolute sense), but that, having been born with a sinful nature, and having chosen to sin, they are in a position that God never has, and never can be; i.e., they are sinners in need of a Saviour.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Richard Holbrook on June 29, 2009, 11:10:37 PM
God has made it very plain what is expected. And He has promised to freely give what is needed to acomplish it.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14

He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. Ps 24:5

And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev 22:17

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, Jude 24
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Pamela Adams on July 04, 2009, 01:06:52 PM
It is interesting that Satan must have had a perfect character before he sinned, as did Adam and Eve.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on July 07, 2009, 09:10:43 PM
Maybe Paul and the other Apostles were onto a way of looking at victory over sin in a way we don't ?

Ro 8:37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

1Jo 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Joh 6:57  As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.


" "Verily, verily, I say unto you," Christ continued, "He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also." The Saviour was deeply anxious for His disciples to understand for what purpose His divinity was united to humanity. He came to the world to display the glory of God, that man might be uplifted by its restoring power. God was manifested in Him that He might be manifested in them. Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was.  {DA 664.4}"

"Chap. 222 - Perfection Now?

     Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48.  {AG 230.1}

     When God gave His Son to the world, He made it possible for men and women to be perfect by the use of every capability of their beings to the glory of God. In Christ He gave to them the riches of His grace, and a knowledge of His will. As they would empty themselves of self, and learn to walk in humility, leaning on God for guidance, men would be enabled to fulfill God's high purpose for them.  {AG 230.2}

     Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled.  {AG 230.3}

     Our Saviour does not require impossibilities of any soul. He expects nothing of His disciples that He is not willing to give them grace and strength to perform. He would not call upon them to be perfect if He had not at His command every perfection of grace to bestow on the ones upon whom He would confer so high and holy a privilege. . . .  {AG 230.4}

     Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character. He is our example. In all things we are to strive to honor God in character. . . . We are to be wholly dependent on the power that He has promised to give us.  {AG 230.5}

     Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was.  {AG 230.6}

     Our Saviour is a Saviour for the perfection of the whole man. He is not the God of part of the being only. The grace of Christ works to the disciplining of the whole human fabric. He made all. He has redeemed all. He has made the mind, the strength, the body as well as the soul, partaker of the divine nature, and all is His purchased possession. He must be served with the whole mind, heart, soul, and strength. Then the Lord will be glorified in His saints in even the common, temporal things with which they are connected. "Holiness unto the Lord" will be in the inscription placed upon them.  {AG 230.7}"


His perfect humanity ......   includes His perfect victories ..........will our required victories be imitations of His through our efforts, or His through us, or a blend of both, or is actual victory 100% submission to God and receiving Him within, in requards to character(thoughts and feelings) & life  (motives, plans, deeds, omissions )  ?

What can be found out from inspiration ?
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: restoretruth on August 18, 2012, 09:45:18 AM
SIN IS PROGRESSIVE

It will:

Take you farther than you wanted to go,

Keep you Longer than you wanted to stay,

Cost you more than you wanted to pay.


When you find yourself standing on the edge in observation --

Immediately TURN TO JESUS FOR HELP!


Adapted from 3ABN Pastoral staff
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on August 18, 2012, 06:16:33 PM
SIN IS PROGRESSIVE

It will:

Take you farther than you wanted to go,

Keep you Longer than you wanted to stay,

Cost you more than you wanted to pay.


When you find yourself standing on the edge in observation --

Immediately TURN TO JESUS FOR HELP!


Adapted from 3ABN Pastoral staff

so true and the counterfeit Satan will do the same points except when you need help, Satan will leave you there
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: GraceVessel on August 19, 2012, 05:14:51 PM
Is victory over sin something that we accomplish? or is it something that Jesus has accomplished (which enables us to "choose" to accept His grace on our behalf)... The definition of what "sin" is.. to a great degree... "slants' how you look at the question to answer it.

When my wife was dying of cancer ... I didn't see her being "obedient" regarding cancer... there was plenty of "behavior causals" to go around... God is punishing you for eating meat.  Using the SDA belief system as the "baseline" my wife didnt "make it" to the finish line -- behavior wise (sin wise).

When it comes down the bottom line... it's all about behavior in socialized Seventh-day Adventism and not relationship.

What I do know is that my wife was totally called out and depended on Jesus for her salvation.  She was sorry for the "areas" of sin in her life (not measuring up completely regarding our "health" message as some define it).  And she made the most of her time by taking time to tell others how awesome Jesus was in her life and how she was thankful for her life and the opportunity to witness for Him.   You see, her witness was doing something for others, a kind jesture, a card, a prayer... not the stuff that counts in today's world or to the Adventist church.  As an adventist we are about "keeping the outward" the inner "motivation means nothing",,, at the end of the day.. it's about obedience and this trumps even grace.  It's a nice sentiment to talk about "Victory over sin"... I don't think my wife ever had that... wasnt her focus... it was about being thankful to God in all things.   Based on SDA defintion I know i am a lost soul... I'll never match up to the obedience bar... and since my motivation on why I would try or not try to "keep the law" is never considered... "sin the the trangression of the law --- ONLY in definition to an SDA"... kinda puts you in the lost camp by default.

it's really sad... that thats how it's viewed from my standpoint... and it's truly how I've been treated and been made to feel.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on August 19, 2012, 05:44:20 PM
Is victory over sin something that we accomplish? or is it something that Jesus has accomplished (which enables us to "choose" to accept His grace on our behalf)... The definition of what "sin" is.. to a great degree... "slants' how you look at the question to answer it.

When my wife was dying of cancer ... I didn't see her being "obedient" regarding cancer... there was plenty of "behavior causals" to go around... God is punishing you for eating meat.  Using the SDA belief system as the "baseline" my wife didnt "make it" to the finish line -- behavior wise (sin wise).

When it comes down the bottom line... it's all about behavior in socialized Seventh-day Adventism and not relationship.

What I do know is that my wife was totally called out and depended on Jesus for her salvation.  She was sorry for the "areas" of sin in her life (not measuring up completely regarding our "health" message as some define it).  And she made the most of her time by taking time to tell others how awesome Jesus was in her life and how she was thankful for her life and the opportunity to witness for Him.   You see, her witness was doing something for others, a kind jesture, a card, a prayer... not the stuff that counts in today's world or to the Adventist church.  As an adventist we are about "keeping the outward" the inner "motivation means nothing",,, at the end of the day.. it's about obedience and this trumps even grace.  It's a nice sentiment to talk about "Victory over sin"... I don't think my wife ever had that... wasnt her focus... it was about being thankful to God in all things.   Based on SDA defintion I know i am a lost soul... I'll never match up to the obedience bar... and since my motivation on why I would try or not try to "keep the law" is never considered... "sin the the trangression of the law --- ONLY in definition to an SDA"... kinda puts you in the lost camp by default.

it's really sad... that thats how it's viewed from my standpoint... and it's truly how I've been treated and been made to feel.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel


Yes, victory over sin can be accomplished but only through the life and blood of Jesus.  We must let Him into our hearts.  Then, and only then will He change us.  We must have the HS in order to repent.  Then, Jesus cleanses our hearts and comes to dwell within us via the HS.  Then we will hate what Jesus hated and love what He loved.

What your wife did counts...  it counts in God's eyes.  And, should count in ours too but sin has blinded most of us and we don't even know sometimes what is most important.

I am sorry that there were not more kind people to give comfort in the trying times. 
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 19, 2012, 06:31:00 PM
Gracevessell, Anyone who tells you that the Adventist health message includes a statement that God will punish a person by giving them a disease that kills them if they eat meat or other such behavior are totally ignorant of the character of God and the purpose of the Adventist  health message, and they bring Gods character and the health message into disrepute.  

I know that there are Adventists who say or imply such things, whether well meaning or not.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 20, 2012, 06:49:26 AM
Many SDA foolish virgins talk words without knowledge, wisdom, or kindness, to those whom God esteems highly . 

Quote
   "Of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember." Bear in mind that trials of this character are to come upon us, not only from without, but from within our own ranks. Our individual safety is in entire consecration to God (MS 27, 1894).  {7BC 952.4} 
     7, 8 (1 Peter 1:22). Working With Love.--Pure love is simple in its operations, and separate from every other principle of action. When combined with earthly motives and selfish interests, it ceases to be pure. God considers more with how much love we work, than the amount we do. Love is a heavenly attribute. The natural heart cannot originate it. This heavenly plant only flourishes where Christ reigns supreme. Where love exists, there is power and truth in the life. Love does good and nothing but good. Those who have love bear fruit unto holiness, and in the end everlasting life   (YI Jan. 13, 1898).   {7BC 952.5}     

1 Peter 3:4  But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

GraceVessel  your late wife sounds like the decriptions of both love, and the meek and quiet spirit.       Perhaps she is one of Christ's sleeping jewels simply waiting on His call. 

The vain talkers seemed to try to do many things.

Isaiah 42:3  A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.


Matthew 12:20  A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Quote
   To the heart of Christ the very presence of trouble was a call for help. The poor, the sick, the desolate, the outcasts, the discouraged, the desponding, found in Him a compassionate Saviour, a Mighty Healer. "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory." Christ identifies His interests with those of suffering humanity, and He tells us that whatever we do to relieve a sufferer, we do for Him. . . .  {MM 121.1}   

Psalms 1:
1
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Tammy on August 20, 2012, 08:46:21 AM
Ed, some really appropriate things you brought out here.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 20, 2012, 10:12:08 AM
Ed, some really appropriate things you brought out here.
I AgreeTammy. Ed always comes up with the the most appropriate  responses, with Scripture and SOP quotes.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 22, 2012, 07:37:47 AM
part 1 - 5 k limit

How did Adam sin ?  He chose then acted. How did Jesus overcome, He surrendered and waited for directions. 

Chap. 42 - The Law Of God Versus The Law Of Self

     For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. Romans 5:19, 20.  {RC 56.1} 

     Adam did not set his mind in defiance against God, nor did he in any way speak against God; he simply went directly contrary to His express command. And how many today are doing the very same thing, and their guilt is of much greater magnitude because they have the example of Adam's experience in disobedience and its terrible results to warn them of the consequences of transgressing the law of God. So they have clear light upon this subject, and no excuse for their guilt in denying and disobeying God's authority. Adam did not stop to calculate the result of his disobedience.  {RC 56.2} 

     We can stand down here,...and with the aftersight we are privileged to have, we can see what it means to disobey God's commandments. Adam yielded to temptation and as we have the matter of sin and its consequences laid so distinctly before us, we can read from cause to effect and see the greatness of the act is not that which constitutes sin; but the disobedience of God's expressed will, which is a virtual denial of God, refusing the laws of His government. The happiness of man is in his obedience to the laws of God. In his obedience to God's law he is surrounded as with a hedge and kept from the evil.  {RC 56.3} 
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 22, 2012, 07:38:22 AM
conclusion - 5 k limit

 No man can be happy and depart from God's specified requirements, and set up a standard of his own which he decides he can safely follow. Then there would be a variety of standards to suit the different minds, and the government taken out of the Lord's hands and human beings grasp the reins of government. The law of self is erected, the will of man is made supreme; and when the high and holy will of God is presented to be obeyed, respected, and honored the human will wants its own way...to do its own promptings, and there is a controversy between the human agent and the divine.  {RC 56.4}  

     The fall of our first parents broke the golden chain of implicit obedience of the human will to the divine. Obedience has no longer been deemed an absolute necessity. The human agents follow their own imaginations which the Lord said of the inhabitants of the old world were evil and that continually. The Lord Jesus declares, "I have kept my Father's commandments." How? As a man. Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God. To the accusations of the Jews He stood forth in His pure, virtuous, holy character and challenged them, "Which of you convinceth me of sin?"--Manuscript 1, 1892.  {RC 56.5}  

Jesus as a converted man, decided to cling to God to save Him from death ( Hebrews 5:7  ) , by faith, decision, practice in union to God, He shunned the concept of selfish will, planning for it's self.

Quote
Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;  

Quote
 Romans 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; ............  
  It seems apparent that Jesus prays to be kept from choosing to sin, believing Satan's lie of parlaying with evil .........you will not be in danger.......... you can plan for yourself........... do a few things safely on your own.  

Quote
   Well, then, what was the matter with Adam? Adam ventured to transgress one prohibition of God, which was the test that God gave to man to try his loyalty and obedience. There was nothing in the fruit of the tree of knowledge that was a point in itself, but the point was in Adam's listening to Satan, and venturing to transgress. Here was Eve listening to the voice of the tempter. "Ye shall not surely die." God said, "If ye eat of it, ye shall die. "Whom shall we believe?--Manuscript 10, 1894, p. 1. ("Keep the Commandments," February 11, 1894.)  {9MR 235.3}    

Jesus made himself of no reputation, and the first step was to surrender autonomy of governing Himself, that rulership He handed over to Father God. Satan was always trying to get Jesus to try to run His own life and choose on His own.  That would cross the drawbridge and give Satan access to batter the castle doors.  

Quote
  All that Jesus did on the earth was done with an eye single to the glory of His Father. He says, "As the Father gave Me commandment, even so I do" [John 14:31]. "This commandment have I received of My Father" [John 10:18]. In all He did, He was working out the will of His Father, so that His life on earth was a manifestation of the divine perfection. The union of divinity with humanity in Christ, was to reveal to us God's purpose to bring man into the closest connection with Himself. We cannot possibly be happy without Him.  {2MR 225.2}

     The original apostasy began in a disbelief and denial of the truth. We are to fix the eye of faith steadfastly upon Jesus. When the days come, as they surely will, in which the law of God is made void, the zeal of the true and loyal should rise with the emergency and should be the more warm and decided, and their testimony should be the more positive and unflinching. But we are to do nothing in a defiant spirit, and we shall not if our hearts are fully surrendered to God.  {2MR 225.3}  

Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Tammy on August 22, 2012, 08:44:43 AM
In his obedience to God's law he is surrounded as with a hedge and kept from the evil.  {RC 56.3} 

I like this picture.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 22, 2012, 04:06:11 PM
We as fallen humans are used to faith and desire fighting against each other.   What if we discovered how faith and desire worked together coupled with what was offered from above through union with God, with the intent of maintaining that union unbroken ?  Isn't that what Jesus did in His humanity ?

Union with God - obtaining / receiving what God offers from above,  abiding in God's words and promises and teachings and putting them to His intended use as their context shows / directs, and living both His and human objectives, duties He shows and relationships on God's terms - is this or is this not .....  salvation in action ?
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on August 23, 2012, 10:31:13 AM
We as fallen humans are used to faith and desire fighting against each other.   What if we discovered how faith and desire worked together coupled with what was offered from above through union with God, with the intent of maintaining that union unbroken ?  Isn't that what Jesus did in His humanity ?

Union with God - obtaining / receiving what God offers from above,  abiding in God's words and promises and teachings and putting them to His intended use as their context shows / directs, and living both His and human objectives, duties He shows and relationships on God's terms - is this or is this not .....  salvation in action ?
i do not think that we as a church will have this kind of unity until the shaking is over...sad to say
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 24, 2012, 11:13:14 AM
If only you guys and ladies had been students at Wildwood in the early 70's , lots of the students, and homeheads and workers and traveling missionaries and Conference officals & GC officers ............ traveling through ......or there awhile......................because immersed in Scripture & SOP while actively ministering to the community..............there was a big chunk of that unity ongoing.      Not everywhere or always perfect, but far in advance of today's Church sadly.

The only way to get wet and learn to swim is in the water....................... so jump in the Bible / SOP pool & encourage a new friend to join you, and both read to each other and talk over how to do the stuff that's there and form a unified group of TWO.   Then later add a THIRD, and so on............. unity will happen, just fall in active love with LOGOS and just do it and encourage each other.    5yr olds are always united as long as they play together, works for old fat kids like me too.  Swing sets and seesaws have just become Scripture & SOP and helping others.     KiKKISKIG         ...................................   Keep it Kind, Keep It Scriptural / SOP, Keep It Going   :-D

It's like victory over wrong foods,  fill up on the good stuff and keep giving the want too's for the bad stuff to God through prayer till He takes them away or increases faith enough to conquer desire .             Getting ready to chop up some peaches & freeze for making vegan peach ice cream with soymilk & splenda knock off, for Sabbath lunch.

The attitude of unity over that might be each reader that likes peaches, would antisipate and have their mouth water.         Church unity is when two or more personally love God, Scripture / SOP and personally are involved with getting into and doing something with God and Scripture / SOP, and both come together because of mutual love for God & Scripture / SOP and activly doing stuff with them.   One or both brings something nice to share to the table and they both divide, share, eat together, bond with God and each other, and together put Scripture / SOP to use as a team .   
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 25, 2012, 03:40:54 AM
5 k limit  - posting EGW's conversation with a demon possessed  SDA while in Colorado.  Notice the quotes from Jesus intersperced.

Quote
 MR No. 1020 - Message to a Sinner: Look to Jesus, and Live!

Dear Brother:
     I cannot forbear writing to you. I knew your countenance as you were seated in the tent at my right hand on the Sabbath [Sept. 13, 1891] at Colorado Springs. The Lord has presented your case before me as one who was in need of that help which God alone could give you. I heard words of hopelessness and despair coming from your lips. I heard wicked words, blasphemous words. Said Jesus, as He looked upon you piteously, "These are not the words of the man, but the words of the spirit that has possessed him. God will heal him. He has gone far in resisting the Spirit of God, but Jesus is drawing him by the tender cords of His love. He has separated from God, but God has not separated from him. Through a train of circumstances he has lost confidence in himself, in his best friends, and turned from light to darkness, from truth to error, and has been left to feel his own weakness."   {13MR 148.1}
 
     You were the very one I was shown who was under the power of demons. "When this young man gives himself to Christ, the victory is gained." Said the heavenly voice, "Break with the deceiver. He is deluding your soul to your ruin. He will not let you go; only the power of the Mighty Deliverer can save you." Charge not my precious loving Saviour with your unhappiness and your ruin. The storm of temptation has swayed you like a reed in the wind, and through these bitter and almost overwhelming storms you have clung to your mantle of pride, hugging it closer about you. Prostrated in the dust, you are apparently devoid of willpower, without strength to rise. No earthly friend is powerful enough to raise you. You still cling to your pride; you utter the words of Satan abiding in your heart. Said Christ, "It is not he but a demon that speaks. I will save him if he will trust in me as a little child trusts in his father, his mother."   {13MR 148.2}    
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 25, 2012, 03:47:08 AM
next part - 5 k limit

Quote
   Lay your pride at the feet of One who owns you, who loves with a love that is infinite. Stand in your God-given manhood, in the strength of Him who can save to the uttermost all who come unto Him. Then your purposes will not be like ropes of sand. In His presence, standing under the shadow of the cross, His mercy, His love, His forgiveness, cover the blackest stains of sin. The Holy Spirit helpeth your infirmities. The Master has work for you to do, to speak words of hope, of comfort, of love, of Christ's forgiveness, pardon, to the helpless, the wandering, the lost. You have no will that leads you to Jesus, but a will that leads you away from Him. With open arms He will receive you.  {13MR 149.1}
 
     The Lord has made provision for your simple necessities. While you need not despise money, you will appreciate it in a different light than you have hitherto done. You will say, "It is all the Lord's. My skill, my aptness and ability, I have misapplied. I will now let Jesus elevate me by the golden chain of truth that will bind me to His eternal throne."  {13MR 149.2}  

     I ask you to work and walk out on my faith, if you cannot on your own. Answer the drawings of the Holy Spirit of God. Accept the prayers of the people of God in your behalf. Poor, tempest-tossed soul, only believe in Jesus' willingness to save you. Let not Satan be your spokesman any longer. Jesus has work for you to do. Satan will speak for you if you will let him, but tell him "No; let my lips utter only words of faith and hope and truth."
Keep talking faith, rebuke the enemy, and the great black cloud of despair will arise and roll back and disappear.[/color]  {13MR 149.3}  

 You cannot make yourself any better; Jesus can do all this. When the Israelites were bitten by the fiery poisonous serpents whose sting was certain death, the brazen serpent was lifted up on a pole, and Jesus, enshrouded in the cloudy pillar, bade Moses tell them, "Look and live."  The same Jesus has bidden me tell you, Look and live. Do not climb the pole, but only look. I present Christ to you. Look and live. There is hope, comfort, and peace for you. There is even joy in the Holy Ghost for you. Now I bid you in the name of Jesus, Look and live.  {13MR 150.1}    
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 25, 2012, 03:48:27 AM
You may say, "Oh, I am a great sinner." I admit it; Jesus is well acquainted with all this, and He says, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" [Mark 2:17]. He has paid the ransom money for your soul, and the price was His own flesh and blood. The badness of your heart should not keep you away from Christ, but bring you closer to your only Hope, your only Helper. Will you allow Satan to triumph? He has unbalanced your mind, so that you are not able to reason calmly and sensibly. Oh, the marvels of the grace of Christ for you! Behold, how Jesus loves you! Satan is pleased to have you look upon God as a tyrant. There is no wrath in God except for the hateful character of sin. Lay your sin on Jesus; leave it to Him; then do what He tells you to do, as a little child, irrespective of consequences.    {13MR 150.2}  

     Satan is playing the game of life for your soul. Shall he conquer? I say No, a thousand times No. God has a work for you to do, but all you have now to do is to look to Jesus, who was lifted up, and live. {13MR 150.3}  

     It is the love of Christ for your soul that constrains me. Shall Christ have died for you in vain? You are unconsciously groping after the heavenly light. Satan shall not conquer; he shall be expelled through prayer and faith. When you come to Jesus, you find He comes to you and clasps you in His everlasting arms.  {13MR 151.1}  

     In the name of Jesus of Nazareth, I rebuke the foul and wicked spirit that has acted for you. Jesus is the conqueror. You may exert all your powers, were they not under the bewitching power of Satan and you echo his sentiments; but Christ will break his power for his work. He testifies [He] is to break every yoke and set the oppressed free. You have been bought with a price, even the precious blood of Christ. You feel and see only wrath and condemnation, that you may hate God and all who lead you to Jesus. In Christ you may find all you need. The loving Saviour is already drawing nigh to heal you.    {13MR 151.2}  

     Satan would have your soul; shall he have it? Say, No, never; it is Christ's property. Satan says, "Curse God and die." Will you do it? He curses God for you, that you may repeat his wicked blasphemy. Will you do it? No, for Jesus has died; He has purchased your life. Your soul is His property, and He will take you by the hand; He will draw you away from perdition; He will make you, as John, His beloved disciple, to win the crown of eternal life. He bids you, through me, His humble servant, "Look and live." He opens His loving heart to you that you may hide in the cleft of the Rock.  Say not, "There is no hope for me." Satan triumphs every time you say it. Let these thoughts be in your heart, "Thou, O Lord, hast created me for Thyself." He has permitted you to live that you might become acquainted with Jesus and be willing to follow Him.--Letter 85, 1891. (Written to J. A. Starr, Sept. 22, 1891, from Healdsburg, California.)

Ellen G. White Estate Washington, D. C. October 5, 1983

Entire Manuscript Released  {13MR 151.3}  
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 25, 2012, 04:13:39 AM
While adding the codes to highlight ............................ something dawned on me.      Jesus is the Rock, and How did the Rock get cleft or split ?  The Divine sword of justice used against Jesus by Father God during the "heart of the Earth time"  Gethsemene - Trial - Calvary - Tomb, for our sakes.

Zechariah 13:7  Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: ColporteurK on October 25, 2014, 08:09:36 PM
 
Today our Bible worker gave  the sermon.  He used power point  and his point was exposing myths regarding salvation. I was very concerned with where he seemed to be going. He said that God is not keeping a record of the sins of the faithful and the faithful do not come under judgement. There was some truth to his message but what he was implying was sweet fodder for Laodicea. He gave a hypothetical list of sins during the day, " Got mad at my wife at 9:00 a.m. repented and at 10:00 a.m. lost my temper at work, confessed and repented" and so it went with about 5-6 events like that during the day. His point was that he was not saved and lost 5 times during the day but saved because God was working with him. One could debate his status in terms of salvation but it left  an impression that was not one of victory over sin but one of bondage. He was trying to show assurance of salvation. However, the implications were dangerous and the very liberal people  in the church loved it.

I asked him after the sermon what will happen to those who "oops" (sin) after Jesus leaves the heavenly sanctuary ? I thought that was an easy question. His reply was, "I don't know, I really haven't studied that out. Obviously you have an answer for that question." This brother is a lifelong SDA and has just graduated from college. He is a Bible worker and considered "conservative" by his friends. He will be going to a foreign mission field  in a year. How can one do all that and not know what happens when probation has closed ? Can one give a correct understanding in a sermon about salvation without knowing this fundamental truth ?

  I really like the young man but he seemed to be  coming form a position of defeat. It would not have been such a concern  if he would  have been preaching to a group of independent legalists but the majority of the congregation is very much into the world.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 26, 2014, 02:06:21 AM
Common sense questions about when the Bible talks about a Pre Advent Judgment. part 1     ( from - "Common sense questions about what the Bible says- Series"  ) a series I am writing, inspired by the format and mind set of Pastor OFfill's  "what to say in a whole new way."

Jeremiah 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.     

A lesser king remembered important things because books of record were opened and read made a judgement ( decision ) base on what was written in the books of record.

Esther 6:1  On that night could not the king sleep, and he commanded to bring the book of records of the chronicles; and they were read before the king.
2  And it was found written, that Mordecai had told of Bigthana and Teresh, two of the king’s chamberlains, the keepers of the door, who sought to lay hand on the king Ahasuerus.
3  And the king said, What honour and dignity hath been done to Mordecai for this? Then said the king’s servants that ministered unto him, There is nothing done for him.
4 ¶  And the king said, Who is in the court? Now Haman was come into the outward court of the king’s house, to speak unto the king to hang Mordecai on the gallows that he had prepared for him.
5  And the king’s servants said unto him, Behold, Haman standeth in the court. And the king said, Let him come in.
6  So Haman came in. And the king said unto him, What shall be done unto the man whom the king delighteth to honour? Now Haman thought in his heart, To whom would the king delight to do honour more than to myself?
 7  And Haman answered the king, For the man whom the king delighteth to honour,
8  Let the royal apparel be brought which the king useth to wear, and the horse that the king rideth upon, and the crown royal which is set upon his head:
9  And let this apparel and horse be delivered to the hand of one of the king’s most noble princes, that they may array the man withal whom the king delighteth to honour, and bring him on horseback through the street of the city, and proclaim before him, Thus shall it be done to the man whom the king delighteth to honour.
10  Then the king said to Haman, Make haste, and take the apparel and the horse, as thou hast said, and do even so to Mordecai the Jew, that sitteth at the king’s gate: let nothing fail of all that thou hast spoken.
11  Then took Haman the apparel and the horse, and arrayed Mordecai, and brought him on horseback through the street of the city, and proclaimed before him, Thus shall it be done unto the man whom the king delighteth to honour.

Why is this king - a mere human - supposedly able to do more than the Living God the Creator of all things ?  If the king can have books and act on them, so can God.



John 5:14  Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.   

What worse thing ?    Acts 10: 38  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39  And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40  Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41  Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42  And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

2 Timothy 4:1  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;   

Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on October 26, 2014, 02:06:42 AM
Common sense questions about when the Bible talks about a Pre Advent Judgment. part 2

In english style writing the order is chronological, but in Jewish writing the order is give the headline then drop back to the foundation and build up from there, so often the last item written in the story occurred first the happening.  So at the time of taking His kingdom Jesus starts the pre Advent Judgment .
 
Matthew 10:27  What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



John 8:11  She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.   

When He said that the context indicates He had power and authority to condemn her, but was choosing at that time not to condemn her, but rather set her free because by His stripes on His back she would be healed from the inside out and not do those sins or be involved in such anymore.

John 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  God did not send Jesus in AD 31 to condemn the world but 1st  Corinthians 11:32 does NOT say that free pass does not expire in the future.


John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Hebrews 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

If people’s bad deeds, and Noah’s good deeds, have power to condemn both evil men and an evil world, why can’t God who is the actual Judge, actually condemn in a real court trial of earth and people ?

1 Corinthians 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.    “With the world” does that sound like the world does get condemned sometime after AD 31 after all ?
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on October 26, 2014, 02:52:27 PM
CP,
seems like a 'smooth' message to me...  we must not take the Lord for granted and especially when we are evaluating ourselves???  the heart is deceitful... satan has blinders on us and we cannot see our own sins unless He shows them to us...
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: ColporteurK on August 04, 2015, 12:06:21 PM

"Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Every one who believes on Christ, every one who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, every one who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ-life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Every one who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression".  {ST, July 23, 1902 par. 14}


"Christ has made every provision for the sanctification of his church. He has made abundant provision for every soul to have such grace and strength that he will be more than a conqueror in the warfare against sin. The Saviour is wounded afresh and put to open shame when his people pay no heed to his word. He came to this world and lived a sinless life, that in his power his people might also lead lives of sinlessness. He desires them by practicing the principles of truth to show to the world that God's grace has power to sanctify the heart.  Mrs. E. G. White. "  {AU Gleaner, January 17, 1906 par. 5} 
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on August 04, 2015, 06:33:24 PM
hearing more and more in our church that we will never have the victory over sin...  SOP and bible says otherwise... so many are just giving up and think that God will accept them no matter what...  they are not even trying... sop mentions effort and self denial ...  we are to do all we can and then Jesus will finish us
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on August 13, 2015, 10:00:07 PM
Goats eat bushes, briars, flowers, finally grass, they often ignore the boundaries and instructions of their Master and thus are filled with food He did not give, and does not want them to eat and live by, thus they put themselves upon His left side in the final day.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: ColporteurK on January 27, 2016, 09:10:35 AM
If someone asks you the question, " Have you stopped sinning yet?" what would be your response ?

Please think about the question, where it is coming from, and what would be the best response.

Many think that we can be abiding in Christ. and sinning at the same time. Sinning is not abiding in Christ.

I John  2:4    He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.  2:5   But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.   2:6   He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on January 29, 2016, 05:48:50 AM
Quote
If someone asks you the question, " Have you stopped sinning yet?" what would be your response ?
 

To quote a fully mortal perfect man - "I don't know", therefore ask Christ because He knows me through and through, but I warn you, He will tell you what He told Peter, " John 21:22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.  So are you asking if I am like Jesus, Noah, Daniel, Job, Paul, James, John yet ?   God is getting there, I am making disciples like Jesus commanded, I only need two more of Job's friends to show up.


Texts & passages backing up the response.

Job - God called him perfect three times - and he both Feared God and also sinned not 

Job 1:1  There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:22  In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Job 2:3  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 9:21  Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.

Writings of Moses - Exodus 20:20  And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.


Noah - Genesis 6:9  These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Daniel - where is the record of his sins ?   They are hid with Christ in God.  No records, no proof, sins hid in Michael The Intercessor, till the I-J is over and sin blotted out, Daniel is treated as sinless. (  Jeremiah 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. )    When God accounts that everyone knows Him, as is needed for their sealing by His authority, He will blot their sins into forgetfulness out of His Books and mind. 

Books of Paul - Colossians 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Book of James - James 3:2  For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Writings of the Apostle John - 1 John 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Words of Jesus written by lesser prophets -

Matthew 28:
18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


John 5:14  Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

John 8:11  She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

*********************

When a former boss whom I respected kept saying "God don't expect someone to be perfect"  day in day out and my explanations did not sink in.  I used Bible software and pulled up an exhaustive list - perfect* = 123  Texts and printed then, bolding and underlining pertinent points, and gave them to her.  She to her credit began to believe Scripture on the matter.  Then I asked her a question. 

What does God say is perfection ?  Can become spiritually perfect if you don't know what perfection is, as it is located, and pin pointed, and explained by God's map, the Bible ?
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on February 20, 2016, 08:29:15 AM
this explains WHY it takes a lifetime to have the victory, to be sanctified, to be righteous, etc....that first sentence is scary

 The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. To remove the stains of sin requires the work of a lifetime. Every day renewed efforts in restraining and denying self are needed. Every day there are new battles to fight and victories to be gained. Every day the soul should be called out in earnest pleading with God for the mighty victories of the cross.   {4T 429.2} 

God is preparing us for yet a higher and higher standard and each day brings upon us new and harder tests that have to be overcome by our efforts and the Grace of God.

If we have messed up, we can begin again, begin now, make a determined effort and pray for help from above.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Hounddog on February 20, 2016, 01:09:34 PM

The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. {4T 429.2} 


I have a problem with this statement. Many people have been reported to be converted in near death situations, although not always did they expect to die. They would have not had time to change their characters. Are they lost? This really gets into where God reads the heart and knows whether the person would have really been making a choice to serve God.

It seems that death bed conversions were the theme of many stories I read growing up. And even the Bible has one death scene conversion where being saved was promised by Jesus, and that being the thief on the cross.

I might be able to buy the concept if you are talking about people who neglected to turn from sin and have their faith in Jesus grow. Those people are the ones who at the end of time, after having neglected preparation for heaven attempt to change but the Holy Spirit has already moved on. Similar people in the Bible are those who change to avoid the punishment without a sincere repentance in their hearts. Careful use of probationary time by those who know better is important. I am aware that many have thought they would enjoy a sinful life until they see the endgames events reach a "critical" point then begin to get ready. I don't have a reference in front of me, but I have read SOP statements that those people will be left behind.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Ed Sutton on February 20, 2016, 01:45:39 PM
If saved at the last possible time, that is the point of conversion, thus a righteous character due to that conversion.

Thus at death the character is fixed, and before taking King of King robes, Jesus gives them righteous characters at minimum.

("the penny" character )= 2 sop hits

Quote
    The reception of the penny by the laborers represents the character that God will give to those who follow him. ..... {RH, July 10, 1894 par. 7}   

Revelation 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Quote
  Holiness is constant agreement with God. Shall we not strive to be that which Christ so greatly desires us to be--Christians in deed and in truth--that the world may see in our lives a revelation of the saving power of truth? This world is our preparatory school. While here we shall meet with trials and difficulties. Continually the enemy of God will seek to draw us away from our allegiance. But while we cleave to Him who gave Himself for us we are safe.  {HP 33.4} 
     The whole world was gathered into the embrace of Christ. He died on the cross to destroy him who had the power of death and to take away the sin of every believing soul. He calls upon us to offer ourselves on the altar of service, a living, consuming sacrifice. We are to make an unreserved consecration to God of all that we have and are.  {HP 33.5}   

Quote
   What does intercession comprehend? It is the golden chain which binds finite man to the throne of the infinite God. The human agent whom Christ has died to save importunes the throne of God, and his petition is taken up by Jesus who has purchased him with His own blood. Our great High Priest places His righteousness on the side of the sincere suppliant, and the prayer of Christ blends with that of the human petitioner.  {TMK 78.2} 
     Christ has urged that His people pray without ceasing. This does not mean that we should always be upon our knees, but that prayer is to be as the breath of the soul. Our silent requests, wherever we may be, are to be ascending unto God, and Jesus our Advocate pleads in our behalf, bearing up with the incense of His righteousness our requests to the Father.  {TMK 78.3} 
    The Lord Jesus loves His people, and when they put their trust in Him, depending wholly upon Him, He strengthens them. He will live through them, giving them the inspiration of His sanctifying Spirit, imparting to the soul a vital transfusion of Himself. He acts through their faculties and causes them to choose His will and to act out His character. With the apostle Paul they then may say, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20). . . .  {TMK 78.4}   

1 Corinthians 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Philippians 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

1 Samuel 10:6  And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: Raven on February 21, 2016, 04:54:00 AM

The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. {4T 429.2} 


I have a problem with this statement. Many people have been reported to be converted in near death situations, although not always did they expect to die. They would have not had time to change their characters. Are they lost? This really gets into where God reads the heart and knows whether the person would have really been making a choice to serve God.



The thief on the cross had no opportunity to build his character after his conversion, since he died within a short time.  But he experienced genuine repentance before he died.  That is the first step in forming a Christlike character.  Obviously he is in a different position than the apostle Paul, and will need a lot more instruction after the resurrection
Title: Re: Victory over Sin
Post by: newbie on February 22, 2016, 04:42:40 PM
The thief on the cross had no opportunity to build his character after his conversion, since he died within a short time.  But he experienced genuine repentance before he died.  That is the first step in forming a Christlike character.  Obviously he is in a different position than the apostle Paul, and will need a lot more instruction after the resurrection

I think it was in DA where she says that the thief that was converted was not as bad as the rest...  He was not the leader but somehow got pulled in with them.  The other points being that he confessed and did good works.  He witnessed to the crowd who Jesus was, he rebuked his friend, and honored Jesus.
It is good to know that even at the last minutes, one can be forgiven and still accepted into heaven at the first resurrection.