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Other Forums => Town Hall => Topic started by: colporteur on August 24, 2008, 09:07:39 AM

Title: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on August 24, 2008, 09:07:39 AM
    I am hearing that David Gates has been removed from Audio Verse because he is considered a sensationalist. I have not heard what I would consider sensationalism from David. He has said that he thinks the economy could crash this year. I don't think this is sensational and it is not a claim to a dogmatic prophetic fact. He has said it could go two years and if God provides a miracle three. He has set know dates for anything. I do not think the greater danger is to sound an alarm that the end is coming soon but rather to ignore all the signs and keep sleeping. While it has not been validated yet and this may not be possible unless the GC makes a public statement, which is unlikely, they are involved in this. My only concern with David was his temporary support of Ernie's dreams. I question his discernment to publicly support something so questionable from the onset. While he apparently has renounced his support of the dreams I wonder why he was not more cautious given the deceptiveness of Satan. Even so, we are erring and it is easy to make a public statemen giving opinion in a question and answer session not intending that it make headlines. I don't know where David is headed spiritually but I do know that if a liberal conference worker would have made such a statement and then changed their position  when they learned more about Ernie's dreams nothing would come of it. After all, most of even the most cautious of us on the forum did not take a hard stand one way or the other and were not sure intitally what to think of the dream's. I took issue with them early on because of the tone but did not outright condemn them because there was alot of truth involved and it took time and investigation to be able to nail them down as being doctrinal error.

     I hope David is on track and, simply made an error by not taking enough time with the dreams and not careful enough in what he said in a public setting before he was more sure, and is simply experiencing the same ostracizing that so often takes place with those who are watchmen sounding the warning in a sleepy church.

     As pastor oF'fil has said, truth can afford to be patient.
 Time will reveal much.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Raven on August 24, 2008, 09:23:19 AM
 
     As pastor O'Ffill has said, truth can afford to be patient.
 Time will reveal much.

I wish more people understood that concept.  Human nature is rather impatient.  Notice how long Jesus put up with Judas.  The truth came out eventually, and it all worked out for good (well, not for Judas, but for the advancement of gospel).
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Dalfie on August 24, 2008, 10:34:24 AM
There are still 32 results in my search on "David Gates" on AudioVerse. Is it possible that only certain presentations were removed?
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on August 24, 2008, 07:50:16 PM
There are still 32 results in my search on "David Gates" on AudioVerse. Is it possible that only certain presentations were removed?

Might be. I'll check into it.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colleenHF on August 24, 2008, 11:01:02 PM
There are still 32 results in my search on "David Gates" on AudioVerse. Is it possible that only certain presentations were removed?

The following is a quote from David Gates in his FrontLine Mission Report regarding AudioVerse.
"The Approaching Storm was one of audioverse.org
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: countrymouse on August 27, 2008, 05:04:03 PM
Apparently part 2 has been removed also.  I find that disturbing that they would do that.  If the Sabbath becomes controversial will they that those also?
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: CountryBoy on August 28, 2008, 07:00:32 AM
I downloaded part 2 from the gospelministry.org link above and listened to most of it. I think the concern may perhaps be related to his assertion that the US currency was becoming worthless and not acceptable in Latin America. This might be true in Venezuela due to the leftist direction that country has taken lately, but my wife and I were in Costa Rica earlier this month for a week and had no trouble using US dollars.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on August 28, 2008, 07:41:17 AM
I downloaded part 2 from the gospelministry.org link above and listened to most of it. I think the concern may perhaps be related to his assertion that the US currency was becoming worthless and not acceptable in Latin America. This might be true in Venezuela due to the leftist direction that country has taken lately, but my wife and I were in Costa Rica earlier this month for a week and had no trouble using US dollars.

I wonder if that is because Costa Rico is not so third world as Venzeuela. I know David had issues in Bolivia too. Perhaps there might be some exaggeration in certain areas but our $ is now worth less than Canadian currency. It may also be that the problem is in using the money on the streets rather than exchanging at the banks. We didn't have any problems in Dominican Republic but we exchanged at the bank.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Dalfie on August 28, 2008, 08:51:39 AM
I have found evidence online from nonaffliliated sources that there are currency issues in Bolivia.

I think the problem people are having is David Gates' assertions about the US economic condition.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Pamela Adams on August 28, 2008, 11:38:35 AM

Regarding current topic on financial...check out to see if your bank is safe? 


http://www.thestreet.com/screener/index.html?src=ratingsindex&tab=3
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: newbie on August 28, 2008, 12:08:46 PM
Regarding current topic on financial...check out to see if your bank is safe? 


http://www.thestreet.com/screener/index.html?src=ratingsindex&tab=3

Thanks Pamela.... good info. to check out...  we are living in shaky times! 
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on September 15, 2008, 05:12:02 AM
I don't consider David Gates' warnings as sensational. I have been saying some of the same things about the economy, only more along the lines of the real estate bubble about to burst, for over four years. Further evidence of the crumbling, or "financial meltdown":

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080915/financial_meltdown.html (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080915/financial_meltdown.html)
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: countrymouse on September 15, 2008, 05:02:21 PM
After today it looks like David Gates knew what he was talking about.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Kevin Barrett on September 15, 2008, 07:00:39 PM
Part 1 and 2 of "The Approaching Storm" are both available on David's website. One really doesn't even have to listen to the recordings to recognize that it
is not 'business as usual'  Bro. Gates in my opinion, is merely stating the obvious. Stating time frames in months versus years probably makes some
uneasy. It obviously grabs your attention, but David isn't setting specific dates. Truly God is in control. He has a purpose in allowing things and
circumstances to happen at a rapid pace.

As dire as these circumstances have (and will) become, and as interesting as last day events are to understand (we really need to understand them) I
need to be careful of what I'm beholding. It doesn't take long for me to become captivated with all the nuances of what ails the church, economy, environment,
medicine, politics etc...  I have the assurance that I serve a big enough God who remains in control of all situations.
Many families are hurting financially, but the gold nugget in this is that some are drawing closer to their Savior in these trying times.

Personally, I need to behold more the author and finisher of my faith. If I seek Him first and His kingdom and His Righteousness, I need
not worry about one temporal thing. I am blessed to be able to face whatever storm with Him. What a window of opportunity I have to share some really
Good News with those around me who are trying to face the storm without Him.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on September 15, 2008, 08:23:43 PM
Amen!
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on September 22, 2008, 07:38:13 PM
Hi Brethren!

Truly the times are troubled! And yet, couldn't one find it strange that a ailing economy is motivation for Christian living and material for Christian sermons?

Why should these troubleous times motivate us to do anything different (spiritually)--isn't that a purely selfish reason for re-acting? (Obviously there may be useful physical preparation--should some of these things happen as they say).

I have a lot of thoughts on this, but want to respect our 5000 character limit.

Please see what I pray are timely thoughts at http://www.thebibleunderstood.org/2008/09/18/the-approaching-storm/ (http://www.thebibleunderstood.org/2008/09/18/the-approaching-storm/)

May God help us all to act today--with Christ as our goal and His love in our hearts!

Love,

Tony Evert
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Kevin Barrett on September 22, 2008, 09:34:04 PM
Tevert, Welcome to the forum!

Your article makes some very good points. Truly, Christ is all the motivation I need to draw close to Him regardless
of circumstance. However, If it takes a crisis to get my attention to think about my need for a Savior, then so be it.

I can only speak for myself, but my initial motivation for serving our Lord was more self-serving than
it is today. As I grow in my understanding of what Jesus did and continues to do for me, I pray that my
motivation for service will continue grow even more selfless.

I believe that tough times are permitted to arrest the attention of those that aren't currently in an abiding
relationship. I'm not a proponent of the use of sensational devices as the times are sensational enough! Yes, there
are those that over-emphasize calamity and play to our natural sense of self-preservation. Perhaps more
emphasis should be devoted to sharing how to have "a peace that passes all understanding" regardless of
what happens in the Middle East, on Wall Street or Main Street?
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on September 23, 2008, 06:35:28 AM
I read this yesterday, and could hardly wait to share it!

     "The disciples had that day witnessed the wonderful works of Christ. It had seemed that heaven had come down to the earth. The memory of that precious, glorious day should have filled them with faith and hope. Had they, out of the abundance of their hearts, been conversing together in regard to these things, they would not have entered into temptation. But their disappointment had absorbed their thoughts. The words of Christ, 'Gather up the fragments, . . . that nothing be lost,' were unheeded. Those were hours of large blessing to the disciples, but they had forgotten it all. They were in the midst of troubled waters. Their thoughts were stormy and unreasonable, and the Lord gave them something else to afflict their souls and occupy their minds. God often does this when men create burdens and troubles for themselves. The disciples had no need to make trouble. Already danger was fast approaching."   Desire of Ages, p. 380.

That should be a lot of food for thought in these troubled times!
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: newbie on September 23, 2008, 08:32:36 AM
I read this yesterday, and could hardly wait to share it!

     "The disciples had that day witnessed the wonderful works of Christ. It had seemed that heaven had come down to the earth. The memory of that precious, glorious day should have filled them with faith and hope. Had they, out of the abundance of their hearts, been conversing together in regard to these things, they would not have entered into temptation. But their disappointment had absorbed their thoughts. The words of Christ, 'Gather up the fragments, . . . that nothing be lost,' were unheeded. Those were hours of large blessing to the disciples, but they had forgotten it all. They were in the midst of troubled waters. Their thoughts were stormy and unreasonable, and the Lord gave them something else to afflict their souls and occupy their minds. God often does this when men create burdens and troubles for themselves. The disciples had no need to make trouble. Already danger was fast approaching."   Desire of Ages, p. 380.

That should be a lot of food for thought in these troubled times!



That is evidence of our lack of faith and doubt...  we all have great faith when the sun is shining and we have all our needs met.  Take any of that away and we are frightened sheep and food for wolves.  Me included...


Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on September 23, 2008, 10:02:25 PM
I believe that tough times are permitted to arrest the attention of those that aren't currently in an abiding
relationship.

Yes this is clearly true. As Deep Waters rightly mentioned:

Their thoughts were stormy and unreasonable, and the Lord gave them something else to afflict their souls and occupy their minds. God often does this when men create burdens and troubles for themselves."

Of course this wasn't their "Time Of Trouble" (the arrest and crucifixion of their Master). It was a tool used to try and ready them for that time. And we need to take careful heed not to confuse the purpose of today's personal difficulties and trials with the general persecution of God's church in the last days. I have a great many friends who have essentially said, "We/Our church needs some persecution so that we will get our acts together." But it is the daily tests and trials that purify us. Raise your hand if you don't have any of those today!  :wink:

Now if there is a global depression, which of course there may very well be, it will be a personal trial to a great many people. And in that way, it would prove a blessing as "the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." James 1:3-4--provided there was enough time during and after it to get ready.

The sobering thought that came home to me recently is: times of general persecution of the church do one thing: they weed out those who are not already consecrated. They only provide an environment for purging out the dross.

Now to what David Gates is saying: "I can tell you that Jesus
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Raven on September 24, 2008, 03:28:15 AM
What was the motivation for getting ready? (Imminent collapse.) With that motivation lacking, so again will our experience be lacking as Christians.

At some time down the road, things will start to look scary again--and a meltdown imminent again. And when that time comes around, it will be too late. "In this time the gold will be separated from the dross in the church." Now is the time to be gold or I will be separated then.

Praise God! We have plenty of motivation today to get in gear--motivations that will stick with me much more than failed predictions (or worse--the one that will come when it's actually too late).


Let's become truehearted disciples today, and get out and do the work He has called us to!

It should not take an "imminent crisis" to motivate us to get ready.  We should be getting ready all the time because "we know not what hour" probation closes, either for us or the world at large.  All one has to do is read the obituaries in the daily paper to know that probation closes on a daily basis for some.  And so we are counseled:  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.  Matt. 24:44.  It has always interested me that the text says "in such an hour as ye think not."  It won't be when we expect it.  That's why living in a constant state of excitement is not profitable.  It can lead to burn out and unbelief ("where is the promise of His coming?")  Rather, we should be living in a constant state of expectation, while observing the signs of the times, and "occupying" until He comes.  That's why Sister White said plainly that we are not to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are we to put it off for 10 or 20 years (can't remember the exact quote).  Being ready and getting ready seem to be the operative phrases.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on September 24, 2008, 04:44:47 AM
I believe that some points Tevert is making appear to be valid. But when we take a closer look at history as we are admonished to do, we need to see the contrasts as well as the comparisons.

Imminent money market collapse today as compared to 1929: Back then we were not the debtor nation that we are today. Federal Reserve did not pump billions of dollars into foreign money markets as it did yesterday. Also, we did not have so many Roman Catholic politicians in high places as we do today. Today we have a majority of RC jurists on the Supreme Court.

David Gates is telling us that the time for Christ's return is imminent because, like never before, this country is ready to reveal the image to the beast and to force the whole world to worship the image to the beast. With the imminent passage of a National Sunday Law (under the guise of a National Day of Worship) will come national ruin.

Let's not overlook the valid point that David Gates is making. Some may think he is being an alarmist. But let us remember that it was an alarm that awakened the ten virgins from their slumber.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Larry Lyons on September 24, 2008, 10:24:41 AM
I recall that some were warning us about the "the boy who cried wolf" syndrome during the days leading up to Y2K. There was concern that nothing would happen, but further down the line people would fail to take seriously the real crisis that would come. They had a valid point.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on September 24, 2008, 12:27:32 PM
I found the following counsel to be appropriate for these times we live in:

     "A passive piety will not answer for this time; let the passiveness be manifested where it is needed, in patience, kindness, and forbearance. But we must bear a decided message of warning to the world. The Prince of Peace thus proclaimed his work, 'I came not to send peace on earth, but a sword.' Evil must be assailed; falsehood and error must be made to appear in their true character; sin must be denounced; and the testimony of every believer in the truth must be as one. All your little differences which arouse the combative spirit among brethren, are devices of Satan to divert minds from the great and fearful issue before us.
     "The true peace will come among God's people when through united zeal and earnest prayer the false peace, that exists to a large degree, is disturbed. . . . Those who are under the influence of the spirit of God will not be fanatical, but calm, steadfast, free from extravagance. But let all who have had the light of truth shining clear and distinct upon their pathway, be careful how they cry, Peace and safety. Be careful how you make the first move to suppress the messages of truth. Be careful what influence you exert at this time. Those who profess to believe the special truths for this time need to be converted and sanctified by the truth. As Christians we are made depositaries of sacred truth, and we are not to keep the truth in the outer court, but bring it into the sanctuary of the soul. Then the church will possess divine vitality throughout. The weak shall be as David, and David as the angel of the Lord."
     "One question will be all absorbing,--Who shall approach the nearest to the likeness of Christ?"
     "Who shall do most to win souls to righteousness? When this is the ambition of believers, contention is at an end; the prayer of Christ is answered." GCDB, February 6, 1893 (emphasis is EGW's).

Is this not what David Gates has been doing? Encouraging others to approach the likeness of Christ and do all they can to win souls while our possessions still have value enough to purchase tracts and distribute them to those who do not know what is about to happen? Christ is indeed coming soon!
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Dalfie on September 24, 2008, 12:39:23 PM
What people consider unreasonable sensationalism is relative to their experience. Some find David Gates too sensational to take, and the young girl that used to work for me found the reality of the way the second coming is presented in Revelation too sensational.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Raven on September 24, 2008, 02:35:13 PM
What people consider unreasonable sensationalism is relative to their experience. Some find David Gates too sensational to take, and the young girl that used to work for me found the reality of the way the second coming is presented in Revelation too sensational.

I find it more troubling that someone would find Revelation (the inspired word of God) too sensational, than that they would find the speculations of finite man too sensational.  The best that man can do is make an educated (sometimes not so educated) guess.  The Word of God makes predictions based on foreknowledge gathered from the Source--sort of like insider trading  :wink:.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Dalfie on September 24, 2008, 03:51:01 PM
Of course, but I wasn't addressing what troubles me more. It is just that different people define different things as sensational. My young friend is a member of a pre-trib rapture denomination. To her, any talk of any turmoil on earth regardless of source, is sensationalism.   

Basically, when someone tells me someone isn't to be believed because they are "sensational", I take it with a large crystal of sodium. What is believed should be based on what is true, and not our perceived "norms".
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Raven on September 24, 2008, 04:54:41 PM
Of course, but I wasn't addressing what troubles me more. It is just that different people define different things as sensational. My young friend is a member of a pre-trib rapture denomination. To her, any talk of any turmoil on earth regardless of source, is sensationalism.   

Basically, when someone tells me someone isn't to be believed because they are "sensational", I take it with a large crystal of sodium. What is believed should be based on what is true, and not our perceived "norms".

I get your point.  I agree; the criterion shouldn't be whether or not something is sensational, but rather on whether or not it is based on fact.  I'm afraid I'm a born skeptic, and it shows.  I tend to be suspicious of most economic predictions because among any panel of "experts" there will be as many opinions as there are so-called experts.  And I have seen so many of these predictions fail during my short lifetime.  Add to that the fact that the media sensationalizes whatever they want to feature on any given day, and you may understand where I'm coming from.  Having said all that, it is true that during our lifetimes none of has ever seen anything on the economic front like what we have seen over the past few weeks.  I'm just thankful that God is in ultimate control, and that no matter what happens, He will make it possible for the gospel to continue to go to all the world.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Dalfie on September 25, 2008, 06:22:48 AM
I think we're related, Raven! I'm actually fairly skeptical myself. You'd probably first be amazed to know what I think of things sometimes, then amused, then probably join Larry in questioning my sanity!

Predictions come and go. I think the points you've been making are valid. One day, the predictions will be right. I don't hang my religion on them, though. Learning to always be ready, always be leaning on Jesus, is my goal. Sadly, the reality of what is ahead of us is probably worse than anyone's predictions.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on September 25, 2008, 07:51:55 AM
Of course, but I wasn't addressing what troubles me more. It is just that different people define different things as sensational. My young friend is a member of a pre-trib rapture denomination. To her, any talk of any turmoil on earth regardless of source, is sensationalism.   

Basically, when someone tells me someone isn't to be believed because they are "sensational", I take it with a large crystal of sodium. What is believed should be based on what is true, and not our perceived "norms".

I am working on the logic here. Isn't "sensationalism" the excuse people use when analyzed facts are presented in such a manner as induces lifestyle cramps? If so, wouldn't a large crystal of potassium be a better remedy?  :-D
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on September 25, 2008, 09:20:43 AM
 :-D

It seems to me that sensationalism is getting up excitement simply for excitement's sake. If David were doing that in his easy chair with feet back I could see why someone might cry sensationalism. When "sensationalism motivates people to take seriously their walk and work with God maybe the movement has be misdiagnosed and would better be described as converson and fervent revival. Another motive for being "sensational" is monetary profit. Far as I know David is not asking for tithe and does not live richly.

A very high profile GC employee and author said that the American economy is strong. I'm wondering what he bases his thinking on and if he lives in reality.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Raven on September 25, 2008, 02:03:54 PM
. Sadly, the reality of what is ahead of us is probably worse than anyone's predictions.

Which is precisely what Sister White said in relation to the time of trouble.  We just read it in Maranatha recently, but I don't have the page reference with me.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on September 25, 2008, 06:08:23 PM
Mrs. White said it will be far worse than we could anticipate. This is strong words considering the fact that I can imagine a very heavy scenario. It will also take a faith beyond what we can imagine. It is not difficult to realize that there  will be no fence setters when the vice is squeezed up tighter than we have ever even heard about before.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Kevin Barrett on September 25, 2008, 07:39:36 PM

A very high profile GC employee and author said that the American economy is strong. I'm wondering what he bases his thinking on and if he lives in reality.

Seems more like a house of cards against a class 3 hurricane to me. A bail-out delays the inevitable and only addresses the symptom. Assuming that a bail-out
does occur, I fear that a false sense of security will ensue and could lull us further into complacency.

Instead, we should be about our father's business with even more fervor than before. The best investments are heavenly and the dividends are out this world.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: ejclark on September 26, 2008, 06:42:06 AM
Peace and Safety, Peace and Safety..........then

Sudden Distruction.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Dalfie on September 29, 2008, 05:30:12 AM
I am working on the logic here. Isn't "sensationalism" the excuse people use when analyzed facts are presented in such a manner as induces lifestyle cramps? If so, wouldn't a large crystal of potassium be a better remedy?  :-D

I knew someone would argue with my choice of chemicals! ;)  If potassium suits you, use it!

Logically, yes, sensationalism has a actual definition. In the world I live in, it is simply a way to remove credibility from anything you don't want to hear.  Kinda like being "unloving" or "legalistic".
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on September 29, 2008, 06:35:13 AM
I knew someone would argue with my choice of chemicals! ;)  If potassium suits you, use it!

Logically, yes, sensationalism has a actual definition. In the world I live in, it is simply a way to remove credibility from anything you don't want to hear.  Kinda like being "unloving" or "legalistic".

What they really mean by "sensationalism" is "fiction" but they have not the courage to say they do not believe.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on September 29, 2008, 09:27:34 AM
Um, let's not redefine sensationalism, and then attack our new definition, eh? Dictionaries are not so too hard to come by these days. :wink:

Sensational: "Suited or intended to excite temporarily great interest or emotion. Producing or designed to produce a startling effect, strong reaction, intense interest, etc., esp. by exaggerated, superficial, gruesome, vivid, or shocking details."

Now, is everything that is sensational wrong? Maybe or maybe not. How do we know? You may have read this: "Some time ago Elder _____ got out some very startling notices regarding the destruction of New York. I wrote immediately to the ones in charge of the work there, saying that it was not wise to publish such notices, that thus an excitement might be aroused which would result in a fanatical movement, hurting the cause of God. It is enough to present the truth of the Word of God to the people. Startling notices are detrimental to the progress of His work."  {Ev 387.3}

How do we know if a sensational topic is OK to present? "It is enough to present the truth of the Word of God." There are some startling messages there. If it's the truth of the Word of God we may present it--even if it could be considered sensational. But I've been looking--did i miss it? Where in God's Word is one word about an economic collapse at the end of time that brings in the time of trouble and the second coming?

We commit sin when God gives us plain instruction and we ignore it.

Now please understand! While the actions may be out of line with God's Word, my point is not to condemn the motives or hearts of those who have been misguided in their presentations or propagation of these presentations. My point is that we need higher motivations for serving Christ--and we need to commit ourselves to serve Him now! Today! See new post /forums/index.php?topic=2688.0 (http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=2688.0).

Let's be careful to live by faith--by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God!  :-)

Love,

Tony

Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Dalfie on September 29, 2008, 03:29:01 PM
I'm not really redefining it the way you seem to imply. This topic is talking about David Gates. I have heard the word "sensational" used to discredit him many times. Now, what these people mean when they use the word "sensational" to discredit Pastor Gates actually is relevant. :) It effects how seriously I take the reasons given... which effects how seriously I take Pastor Gates' messages. How true Pastor Gates' messages are is relevant to the way we perceive the happenings in the world today. (I'm sorry, but I don't feel at liberty to discuss on an open forum the details of why I am saying this, and why I'm looking at this topic from this angle at this time.)

Most people don't use words that are intended to detract from something by the strict dictionary definition. Connotation can mean as much as denotation when trying to understand someone's meaning. Maybe its different in your church, but twisting words to reduce the effectiveness of all things of God is extremely common in mine. I have to be able to live outside of Webster, so to speak, if I'm to understand what is really being said.


There are two ways to look at this topic. First, the way I have been, in relationship to people and how it all functions.   Second, the truth vs. error, which some of the others here have been doing.

On the side I haven't been talking about: Absolutely agreed that our motivations need to be based in Truth, not something new, shocking, or scary.



I seem to be losing people lately, so I guess I'd better stop while I'm ahead.... or am I ahead??
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on September 29, 2008, 03:40:42 PM
Fair enough.

I would just like to add that I have personally witnessed, as a result of these kinds of messages "an excitement" which has resulted "in a fanatical movement, hurting the cause of God."

There has been movement--even apparently positive--as a result of David Gates' messages. In reality, most fanaticism has a genuine appearance to it. Sadly in my personal experience I have seen little fruit from these messages of the actual simple spirituality that results when we "present the truth of the Word of God to the people." And in some cases I have seen a fanatical response in individuals that has been devoid of the Spirit of Jesus. (Just as we were told in Ev 387.)

"Startling notices are detrimental to the progress of His work." That's why my burden has been to shift our attention from "obedience because of the failing economy", to "obedience because of Christ and for the sake of His truth." :-) 

I hope this motivation is clear!

May God bless us all and help us become more like Him!

Tony Evert


Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Dalfie on September 29, 2008, 04:08:07 PM
Fanatical movements can indeed be very detrimental.

(The difficulty is in knowing which "fanatical" movement is the true one, since just about everything about God's end time people could be called such.  :wink:)

With the day's events, the name David Gates could easily be dropped from the economical motivation concern, since totally aside from him, I find the pattern of the last few weeks concerning. It would not be too hard for anyone not firmly grounded in Jesus to slip into a fear-based motivation. (either that or they are comatose??)

Tony, I think we are a 100% agreed on the motivation for obedience part.


The part that is subject to opinion is whether or not the current events are a "vindication" of "sensational" remarks that have been alluded to here.... (I don't have an opinion on this one yet)
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on September 29, 2008, 04:21:40 PM
Fair enough.

I would just like to add that I have personally witnessed, as a result of these kinds of messages "an excitement" which has resulted "in a fanatical movement, hurting the cause of God."

There has been movement--even apparently positive--as a result of David Gates' messages. In reality, most fanaticism has a genuine appearance to it. Sadly in my personal experience I have seen little fruit from these messages of the actual simple spirituality that results when we "present the truth of the Word of God to the people." And in some cases I have seen a fanatical response in individuals that has been devoid of the Spirit of Jesus. (Just as we were told in Ev 387.)

"Startling notices are detrimental to the progress of His work." That's why my burden has been to shift our attention from "obedience because of the failing economy", to "obedience because of Christ and for the sake of His truth." :-) 

I hope this motivation is clear!

May God bless us all and help us become more like Him!

Tony Evert

Tony, there is no doubt that you are a sincere person. But you haven't been to my church. Maybe you need to get out more.

You see, some are like those who passed through the river and dipped cupped hands, quenching their thirst with watchful eyes. They are few in number. But they are motivated for the right reasons. They have seen the signs, and recognize the need for heightened alertness.

     "The true peace will come among God's people when through united zeal and earnest prayer the false peace, that exists to a large degree, is disturbed. . . . Those who are under the influence of the spirit of God will not be fanatical, but calm, steadfast, free from extravagance. But let all who have had the light of truth shining clear and distinct upon their pathway, be careful how they cry, Peace and safety. Be careful how you make the first move to suppress the messages of truth. Be careful what influence you exert at this time. Those who profess to believe the special truths for this time need to be converted and sanctified by the truth. As Christians we are made depositaries of sacred truth, and we are not to keep the truth in the outer court, but bring it into the sanctuary of the soul. Then the church will possess divine vitality throughout. The weak shall be as David, and David as the angel of the Lord."  GCDB, February 6, 1893.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on September 29, 2008, 04:38:59 PM
"The true peace will come among God's people when through united zeal and earnest prayer the false peace, that exists to a large degree, is disturbed. . . . Those who are under the influence of the spirit of God will not be fanatical, but calm, steadfast, free from extravagance. But let all who have had the light of truth shining clear and distinct upon their pathway, be careful how they cry, Peace and safety. Be careful how you make the first move to suppress the messages of truth. Be careful what influence you exert at this time. Those who profess to believe the special truths for this time need to be converted and sanctified by the truth. As Christians we are made depositaries of sacred truth, and we are not to keep the truth in the outer court, but bring it into the sanctuary of the soul. Then the church will possess divine vitality throughout. The weak shall be as David, and David as the angel of the Lord."  GCDB, February 6, 1893.

I agree with every point--especially the bold and colored ones! There is no time for peace and safety! It is nearly too late already to wake up, and no one knows when his probation will close. The critical state of the financial world does not make this any more or less true, right? (We don't have proof from God's Word that "this is it"--it could be another 1929--or God might hold this off as part of the 4 winds). We must get ready now because the Great Controversy is real and happening at this very minute in my life and yours!

You know that I am clearly not in favor of this type of "startling message". Let me just ask a couple honest questions: Does truth = "impending economic collapse" i.e. startling message? Or could one oppose the startling speculation (which is contrary to Christ's method of teaching) without opposing truth?

Does it worry you that a number of speakers are not heeding the what God has told will result from these types of messages: not a "good" type of fanaticism, but the type that is "hurting the cause of God"?

When God tells us to present the startling truths that are actually part of His Word without adding to them startling speculations about the present and future--do you believe that it is important to obey Him in this matter?

If the worldly predictions regarding business matters and economic affairs turns out to be true (not a hard prediction to make by the way), does that justify us using methods that God has told us not to use?

Please understand these are the questions I have had to ask myself. I share them because I feel they are vital to us understanding this matter as we should.

May God help us to, and thank you for your feedback and thoughts!

Tony

P.S. Sadly my church has issues too! We're in the middle of a few of them--and they seem to stem from people being asleep. I feel so sad for our churches--it is possible that God could come for His people around the world and take almost no SDAs from North America!
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on September 29, 2008, 07:53:19 PM
But what does it profit, when from every angle even in the secular world things are screaming "colapse" to think the Lord will delay much longer?  Things are radically different today than in 1929. The world economy is in trouble. We are so much in debt in our country so as not even to be comparable to 1929 inflation factored in. The numbers boggle the mind. David Gates has said that the economy would likelly colapse this year. It already has. Go try to get a home morgage. David  said that the economy could go another year, if the Lord is willing it might last two years and if He provides a miracle three years. Considering the current situation three years is a very long time. It is not fanaticism that has been the Laodicean's church's main problem but sleepiness. If the trumpet is not given a certain sound Laodicea will not awaken until it is too late. Many of our people are still waiting for the right time to leave the cities when the trumpet has been sounding for a century. Many are still waiitng for the time to leave off meat out of their diets. We are told in the SOP that God's last work would be considered fanaticism and would many even in the church would be afraid of it.

There is a certain amount of fear involved in this for all of us especially when we have small children. Some are trying to deal with this through denial of obvious facts. That is not the way to cope.

    We must cry out "the sky is falling... the sky is falling."   But them make sure we include "Jesus is in the sky." In other words we need to share the truth of an eminent end to all things as we know them and yet preach faith and hope in Jesus.

When we think like a non SDA pastor the other day said, that I canvassed, "we're going to pull out of this one" we lead others and ourselves to continue in a careless mode thinking we have a whole life time to get ready.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Kevin Barrett on September 30, 2008, 06:30:50 AM
Have you ever wondered what to say to your neighbors in times like these?

9T38.2-9T38.3

Quote
Visit your neighbors and show an interest in the salvation of their souls. Arouse every spiritual energy to action. Tell those whom you visit that the end of all things is at hand. The Lord Jesus Christ will open the door of their hearts and will make upon their minds lasting impressions.  {9T 38.3}

     Strive to arouse men and women from their spiritual insensibility. Tell them how you found Jesus and how blessed you have been since you gained an experience in His service. Tell them what blessing comes to you as you sit at the feet of Jesus and learn precious lessons from His word. Tell them of the gladness and joy that there is in the Christian life. Your warm, fervent words will convince them that you have found the pearl of great price. Let your cheerful, encouraging words show that you have certainly found the higher way. This is genuine missionary work, and as it is done, many will awake as from a dream.

In summary; this is what you should say:

1. The end of all things is at hand - The second coming
2. Your personal testimony - What Jesus means to you.
3. How blessed you have been in His service
4. Tell them about the Scriptures. The impact that they have had on your life.
5. Tell them about the great satisfaction you have found in the Christian life

This is genuine missionary work!
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deborah Risinger on September 30, 2008, 07:04:08 AM
Tony, welcome...

God's Blessings'
Deborah
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on September 30, 2008, 08:57:05 AM
In summary; this is what you should say:

1. The end of all things is at hand - The second coming
2. Your personal testimony - What Jesus means to you.
3. How blessed you have been in His service
4. Tell them about the Scriptures. The impact that they have had on your life.
5. Tell them about the great satisfaction you have found in the Christian life

This is genuine missionary work!

Amen!  :-)
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on September 30, 2008, 06:57:34 PM
You know that I am clearly not in favor of this type of "startling message". Let me just ask a couple honest questions: Does truth = "impending economic collapse" i.e. startling message? Or could one oppose the startling speculation (which is contrary to Christ's method of teaching) without opposing truth?

Does it worry you that a number of speakers are not heeding the what God has told will result from these types of messages: not a "good" type of fanaticism, but the type that is "hurting the cause of God"?

When God tells us to present the startling truths that are actually part of His Word without adding to them startling speculations about the present and future--do you believe that it is important to obey Him in this matter?

If the worldly predictions regarding business matters and economic affairs turns out to be true (not a hard prediction to make by the way), does that justify us using methods that God has told us not to use?

Please understand these are the questions I have had to ask myself. I share them because I feel they are vital to us understanding this matter as we should.

May God help us to, and thank you for your feedback and thoughts!

Tony

P.S. Sadly my church has issues too! We're in the middle of a few of them--and they seem to stem from people being asleep. I feel so sad for our churches--it is possible that God could come for His people around the world and take almost no SDAs from North America!

Tony,

When the truth as it is in Jesus is presented at the right time, it is startling. Now is not the time to be bickering about David Gate's "startling", "sensational" statements. You are starting to come across as someone who doesn't like the noise of the alarm and the way to deal with it is to throw the alarm against the wall opposite.

For those who discern the signs of the times, this is not a false alarm. Just last night, I was talking to a friend who has an MBA. I asked him about David Gates message. He said that he agrees with the conclusion. Then he told me about an international finance class he took. The professor wrote a formula on the board, then spent the next two class periods showing how that formula took every influential factor on the outcome of an economy. He then showed the class how the United States stood in light of that formula, and showed how the only mathematical outcome for the USA is hyper-inflation which will only result in economical disaster such as we have never seen.

Without even knowing about that formula, I saw disaster coming when I was a loan officer in California, and saw mortgage institutions offering low interest rate loans to folks with a 55% debt ratio. That was five years ago, and I started then to warn people that should the practice of obtaining loans one could not afford to pay would lead to record foreclosures which would affect even those in the mid-west.

Now, David Gates predicted financial collapse, and reminded us that Ellen White said the national ruin would be preceded by national apostasy. He is merely trying to alert us to where we are in time. And by the look of things, he was right and will continue to be right. Which is why we should be praying for more time, pleading with God for forgiveness of our neglect and for hearts to do what we can to redeem the time.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Larry Lyons on September 30, 2008, 07:35:33 PM
Amen DW. The OT prophets were never chastened by God for sounding the alarm.  One of the major characteristic of Israel's apostasy was that they refused to listen to the warnings of the prophets.

"God's people must take warning and discern the signs of the times. The signs of Christ's coming are too plain to be doubted; and in view of these things every one who professes the truth should be a living preacher. God calls upon all, both preachers and people, to awake. All heaven is astir. The scenes of earth's histroy are fast closing. We are amid the perils of the last days. Greater perils are before us, and we are not awake. This lack of activity and earnestness in the cause of God is dreadful. This death stupor is from Satan." (Testimonies vol 1 pp 260, 261)

Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on September 30, 2008, 08:37:41 PM
This bring up another honest question about these messages:

David Gates predicted financial collapse, and reminded us that Ellen White said the national ruin would be preceded by national apostasy.

Yes. What national apostasy? "When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land, and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." LDE 133.

Not only will Sunday Laws be followed by national ruin--they will cause it! Again talking about the enforcement of Sunday Laws: "There will be a national apostasy, which will end only in national ruin." LDE 133.

Does that not raise a red flag? We have an impending national ruin and no Sunday laws to bring it about. Even if those Sunday laws were enacted tomorrow, no honest person could say that the economic collapse was a result of the Sunday laws.

So what do we do to harmonize this with the predicted September/October collapse and ruining of the nation?

What do you think?
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on September 30, 2008, 08:49:45 PM
Please pray for the Holy Spirit to open your mind to hear this important point. (Could it be that some crucial thoughts about this are being missed because of reading with prejudice?)

I'm not sure how this idea could possibly come across, so let me clarify!!

Quote
You are starting to come across as someone who doesn't like the noise of the alarm and the way to deal with it is to throw the alarm against the wall opposite.

I have repeatedly sounded the alarm that we must be getting ready now. I am sounding the alarm that we are departing from the plain words of scripture when it comes to these types of messages. Alarms are urgently needed.

If David Gates, and others, left out the parts of their messages that violated God's instructions regarding startling messages, and replaced the startling speculation about the timing of worldly catastrophes with the startling "truth of the Word of God", I would be very much in harmony with their messages!

Of course we need to wake up. Of course we need stirring messages from God's Word. And as I have said repeatedly, when we obey God and "present the truth of the Word of God to the people" it will have an awakening and even startling effect sometimes.

That is not the issue. We need stirring messages.

But! If we give a stirring message that violates a plain principle of God's Word, or promote that message because we think it is doing good in spite of the fact that it is disobedience to give a message in that way, then how are we not violating God's Word as truly as if we were openly sinning some other way?

So far these are the answers I am hearing to the questions I just posed:

Does it worry you that a number of speakers are not heeding the what God has told will result from these types of messages: not a "good" type of fanaticism, but the type that is "hurting the cause of God"?

No it doesn't worry us that we are not heeding what God has told us.

When God tells us to present the startling truths that are actually part of His Word without adding to them startling speculations about the present and future--do you believe that it is important to obey Him in this matter?

No it is not important to obey Him in this matter.

If the worldly predictions regarding business matters and economic affairs turns out to be true (not a hard prediction to make by the way), does that justify us using methods that God has told us not to use?

Yes. The end justifies using methods God has told us not to use.

If I am hearing correctly then what a shame on us! If we do not heed God's Word better than this--then who will? (Please, if you feel those summary answers do not reflect your thinking, then answer them directly--taking into account our counsel in Ev 387.)

If we will not obey God in this small area, then what can we say to our friends who are worldly or breaking the Sabbath? How are we any better? "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10.

Let's be serious about following the Word 100%. Let's be serious about giving stirring messages--and a loud call to repentance. But let's do it according to the direction of our Heavenly Leader. Let's not dishonor Him by openly ignoring what He has told us to do--instead let's sound the alarm and give the call to repentance using the methods He has told us to use!

It pains me to come to the realization that the best people in God's church only regard God's Word in certain areas. Let's wake up! We need a revival in our own midsts! We need to begin to heed God's Word not just in the usual areas of diet, dress, or entertainment--but in every area that He has given us direction! Even this one.

That is pretty much what I see that needs to be considered. What more can I say?  :-) I don't find words to make this point clearer--so I don't see wisdom in me continuing to try to press home this truth--as I do not wish to propagate an argument for the sake of argument!

Please just ask yourself--am I in any way giving heed to the plain statements of God's Word regarding these kinds of messages--am I considering how they apply to my case and my relation to these messages? Am I giving the alarm in the way God wants me to right now? :-)

Love,

Tony Evert
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: reaching4heaven on September 30, 2008, 08:51:51 PM
This bring up me to another honest question I've had about these messages:

David Gates predicted financial collapse, and reminded us that Ellen White said the national ruin would be preceded by national apostasy.

Yes. What national apostasy? "When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land, and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." LDE 133.

Not only will Sunday Laws be followed by national ruin--they will cause it! Again talking about "The papal sabbath". "There will be a national apostasy, which will end only in national ruin." LDE 133.

Does that not raise a red flag? Hmmmm. We have an impending national ruin and no Sunday laws to bring it about. Even if they were enacted tomorrow, no honest person could say that the economic collapse was a result of the Sunday laws.

So what do we do to harmonize this with the predicted September/October collapse and ruining of the nation?

That had me wondering earlier, too. I have not been reading this thread carefully, nor have I been following the bank situation closely. I figure what happens happens whether or not I'm up to date on the details, so please be gentle with answering my observation/inquiry.

Does SOP state what "national ruin" means? Could it not be the ultimate spiritual turning away of this nation that happens when it does pass a Sunday Law? Or does that make the "national apostacy" and "national ruin" the same thing? Could not this financial collapse (if it does happen or is it a done thing?) be what provokes the people to cry for a Sunday Law (national apostacy) which will result in "national ruin"?
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on September 30, 2008, 09:10:05 PM
Tony,

We have not had the financial ruin yet. We still have time to postpone it. But please, comprehend this: what is about to happen to us economically, and what has already happened in the wake of natural disasters, is already getting grass roots attention and calls for national repentance. We have already had a recent pope call for Sunday observance, a present president state we should implement that pope's teachings, a supreme court packed with RC justices, and a current pope who used to head the inquisition. What more evidence do you need in order to comprehend that we could still have a national day of worship law pass before our impending economical collapse occurs?

Your positions are such that they express doubt that the final movements will be rapid ones. As such you are encouraging doubt even as you assert that you believe and agree with what I have posted.

Really, Tony, you should beware, for while you reprimand, through your questions, the motives of those who believe David Gates is speaking the truth, you are crying peace and safety at a time when there is none!
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on October 01, 2008, 07:15:49 AM
If I understand the SOP correctly there is no quote that says the Sunday law causes national ruin. National ruin is well on its way by the time the Sunday law is legislated and enforced.. The Sunday law is simply the nation's final drops that fill her cup. We are in process of national ruin right now but the process is not completed and will not be complete until  after the Sunday law. A very troubleous time brings on the Sunday law and this is where we are currently. The Sunday law cannot be far off.

National ruin is not defined in the SOP as simply financial colapse. Even with financial colapse the leadership of the nation can continue at least for a time. Resources are still here. Military might is still here. Outside countries joining with the US can keep it functioning at least on the upper levels.

David Gates has simply echoed what was obvious.. that being that financial colapse was eminently close. The fact is  we have already experienced it but the full fruitage is still not realized by any means. Now they are appearing to try to jump start the stopped heart of the economy. It may erratically beat along for a while before the patient dies (national ruin).  I guess what I am saying in a nutshell is that financial colapse and national ruin need not take place at the same time. They are not ultimately synonymous though the ruin will follow the colapse.
     
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: reaching4heaven on October 01, 2008, 07:40:49 AM
If I understand the SOP correctly there is no quote that says the Sunday law causes national ruin. National ruin is well on its way by the time the Sunday law is legislated and enforced.. The Sunday law is simply the nation's final drops that fill her cup. We are in process of national ruin right now but the process is not completed and will not be complete until  after the Sunday law. A very troubleous time brings on the Sunday law and this is where we are currently. The Sunday law cannot be far off.

National ruin is not defined in the SOP as simply financial colapse. Even with financial colapse the leadership of the nation can continue at least for a time. Resources are still here. Military might is still here. Outside countries joining with the US can keep it functioning at least on the upper levels.

David Gates has simply echoed what was obvious.. that being that financial colapse was eminently close. The fact is  we have already experienced it but the full fruitage is still not realized by any means. Now they are appearing to try to jump start the stopped heart of the economy. It may erratically beat along for a while before the patient dies (national ruin).  I guess what I am saying in a nutshell is that financial colapse and national ruin need not take place at the same time. They are not ultimately synonymous though the ruin will follow the colapse.
     

Thank you. I know I need to read up on it. There's just so much to read and so little time.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: reaching4heaven on October 01, 2008, 07:47:25 AM
I like David Gates. We listened to all his sermons on audioverse in one weekend when the weather was too bad to do much else. He
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 01, 2008, 08:15:35 AM
This bring up another honest question about these messages:

Yes. What national apostasy? "When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land, and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." LDE 133.

Not only will Sunday Laws be followed by national ruin--they will cause it! Again talking about the enforcement of Sunday Laws: "There will be a national apostasy, which will end only in national ruin." LDE 133.

Does that not raise a red flag? We have an impending national ruin and no Sunday laws to bring it about. Even if those Sunday laws were enacted tomorrow, no honest person could say that the economic collapse was a result of the Sunday laws.

So what do we do to harmonize this with the predicted September/October collapse and ruining of the nation?

What do you think?

Like I said before, you really should get out more.

As I drive truck through the lower 48, I cannot help but see things that one did not see before. The increase in billboards advertising adult stores still amazes me as I recall NEVER seeing them when I was a child. The last time I drove through Las Vegas, I prayed that God would not destroy the righteous with the wicked. In other words, please wait until I can get out of there!  :-D They had billboards plainly stating what one would receive monetarily if one should stay just one more night to make an adult film. I saw, in St. Louis, a billboard advertising a new Cable series called "Californication".

That is shocking enough. So I won't go any further with the things that I have seen while in my truck driving throughout the nation. National apostasy? Already here! But the final step of no return is the National Sunday Law, under whatever clever guise politicians manage to pass it, because by it men will attempt to usurp the conscience of other men. And, for all you know, it could be slipped into a bill, as a rider, that bails out the troubled financial institutions that threaten imminent economic collapse. Who is to say?

So don't accuse me of rejecting your message of warning. I have compared it to Scriptures, SOP, and the times we live in, and, frankly, you are not giving the trumpet that certain sound we are to be giving. If any one needs to reevaluate, it ought to be you.

Reaching4heaven,

I don't see anyone here trying to make a prophet out of David Gates. If you think that is the case, then you are in danger of chasing another one of the Devil's rabbits.  :puppy:

The prediction that David was making was that we could face economical collapse as early as this September. The events that have occurred are startling when associated with his prediction. Unfortunately, Gates made statements that more or less endorsed Ernie Knoll's dreams. David has since recanted those endorsements. That is why you won't find the sermons on audioverse.com.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on October 01, 2008, 08:46:08 AM
Your positions are such that they express doubt that the final movements will be rapid ones. As such you are encouraging doubt even as you assert that you believe and agree with what I have posted.

You should beware, for while you reprimand, through your questions, the motives of those who believe David Gates is speaking the truth, you are crying peace and safety at a time when there is none!

Let's not attack one another, especially by falsely attributing evil thoughts and motives to each other. Sad to think that you could make a false statement like this (everything I've said is plainly recorded above). I have a different motive: that is to stick with the Word 100%. When God says "don't do this", I attempt to take it seriously. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the final movements will be rapid ones. God's Word makes that plain. :-)

According to God's Word, the second coming is not based on an economic crisis, natural disaster, or war. Enough of those things have happened already for Christ to come. Now all that needs to happen is for "the character of Christ" to "be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own." {COL 69.1}

We don't have a basis in the Word for an economic collapse of the U.S. before the close of probation. Certainly it will happen after the close of probation. But using it as a basis for saying that probation's close is at hand is merely human speculation. Probation may very well close quite some time before the "two or three years at most" that this economy could last are ended! It's also possible for the economy to collapse, and time continue a little while--the Word just doesn't say one way or the other. The economic collapse cannot be a basis for us to get our act together. We must get serious in spite of it and regardless of it. And stick to things that the Word really teaches.

I have tried to emphasize: you and I need to be 100% for God today because our probation might not last until this collapse happens--it might not even last through today. That is not a message of "peace and safety". Indeed saying that we may have "two or at the most three years left" might give us more peace and safety than that. We just don't have that much time.

It's not wrong to want to follow the Lord's instructions related to messages and how we should give them. And I hope it's not in this forum, too.

Love,

Tony Evert
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 01, 2008, 08:52:34 AM
Let's not attack one another, especially by falsely attributing evil thoughts and motives to each other. Sad to think that you could make a false statement like this (everything I've said is plainly recorded above). I have a different motive: that is to stick with the Word 100%. When God says "don't do this", I attempt to take it seriously. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the final movements will be rapid ones. God's Word makes that plain. :-)

On the other hand, we don't have a basis in the Word for an economic collapse of the U.S. before the close of probation. Certainly it will happen after the close of probation. But using it as a basis for saying that probation's close is at hand is merely human speculation. Probation may very well close quite some time before the "two or three years at most" that this economy could last are ended! It's also possible for the economy to collapse, and time continue a little while--the Word just doesn't say one way or the other. The economic collapse cannot be a basis for us to get our act together. We must get serious in spite of it and regardless of it. And stick to things that the Word really teaches.

I have tried to emphasize: you and I need to be 100% for God today because our probation might not last until this collapse happens--it might not even last through today. That is not a message of "peace and safety". Indeed saying that we may have "two or at the most three years left" might give us more peace and safety than that. We just don't have that much time.

It's not wrong to want to follow the Lord's instructions related to messages and how we should give them. And I hope it's not in this forum, too.

Love,

Tony Evert
Tony, I am not attacking you. Your message regarding David Gates and "sensationalism", on the other hand, is the wrong message. You take one quote from Sister White regarding notices about the destruction of New York, and wrongfully try to apply them to David's message, and tell us we are sinning if we believe them. Furthermore, you implied that we are prejudiced if we do not go along with what you say. So enough already. I have other work to do.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: reaching4heaven on October 01, 2008, 09:39:13 AM
I don't see anyone here trying to make a prophet out of David Gates. If you think that is the case, then you are in danger of chasing another one of the Devil's rabbits.  :puppy:

You'll have to explain to me why you think I'm the one chasing a rabbit...

Oh, and by the way, I didn't chase those rabbits. I only endured hearing about them.


The prediction that David was making was that we could face economical collapse as early as this September. The events that have occurred are startling when associated with his prediction.

So if he had said August or November would we be having this conversation?
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 01, 2008, 09:50:38 AM
Amen DW. The OT prophets were never chastened by God for sounding the alarm.  One of the major characteristic of Israel's apostasy was that they refused to listen to the warnings of the prophets.

"God's people must take warning and discern the signs of the times. The signs of Christ's coming are too plain to be doubted; and in view of these things every one who professes the truth should be a living preacher. God calls upon all, both preachers and people, to awake. All heaven is astir. The scenes of earth's histroy are fast closing. We are amid the perils of the last days. Greater perils are before us, and we are not awake. This lack of activity and earnestness in the cause of God is dreadful. This death stupor is from Satan." (Testimonies vol 1 pp 260, 261)

Thank you for that quote, Larry.

I was talking to a friend on the phone, and he shared with me another appropriate quote:

    "We are living in the last days of this earth's history, and we may be surprised at nothing in the line of apostasies and denials of the truth. Unbelief has now come to be a fine art which men work at to the destruction of their souls. There is constant danger of there being shams in pulpit preachers, whose lives contradict the words they speak; but the voice of warning and of admonition will be heard as long as time shall last; and those who are guilty of transactions that should never be entered into, when reproved or counseled through the Lord's appointed agencies, will resist the message and refuse to be corrected. They will go on as did Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar, until the Lord takes away their reason, and their hearts become unimpressible. The Lord's word will come to them; but if they choose not to hear it, the Lord will make them responsible for their own ruin." Vol. 1, Notebook Leaflets from the Elmshaven Library, p. 101. Also found in 2SM 147.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: newbie on October 01, 2008, 09:58:50 AM
DW,
Your emphasis on unbelief is interesting and so true.  Many think that this means all we have to believe is to believe that Jesus saved us and then do as we please.  But it is so much deeper than this.  To believe is to trust in what the word of God says and that we will do.  To believe is to still trust when it seems like evil is all around us and yet count it all joy that a living God is still beside us and counts every tear shed. 

newbie
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 01, 2008, 10:00:27 AM
You'll have to explain to me why you think I'm the one chasing a rabbit...

Oh, and by the way, I didn't chase those rabbits. I only endured hearing about them.


So if he had said August or November would we be having this conversation?

I only made the statement as a matter of warning against chasing after the diversionary tactic used to distract from the real issues.

You really should try to get ahold of those sermons and hear for yourself what he said. Regarding September, he said it could happen as early as September and that it could happen by April of next year, and then he told us to pray that it would not happen that early because we do need more time to spread the gospel. He said that he was praying that God would give us another year or two. So, when it lines up with events over which David personally has no control, well, as one friend of mine says, "It's nearly prophetic". Now, you have seen my posts regarding my warnings I started five years ago, David Gates' warnings, and my friend who told me about what his secular professor said about the state of the economy, and how we believe it to have great significance when compared to the signs of the times in which we live, and you tell me if we are wrong to have this conversation.

Again, I have not heard anyone say anything about making David Gates a prophet until you brought it up in your post, "David Gates is not a prophet. He has never claimed to be from what I have heard, yet some posts on here and other forums seem to hold him in such status." (sorry, no smiley for "rabbit")
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: reaching4heaven on October 01, 2008, 10:13:04 AM
Again, I have not heard anyone say anything about making David Gates a prophet until you brought it up in your post, "David Gates is not a prophet. He has never claimed to be from what I have heard, yet some posts on here and other forums seem to hold him in such status."

I have not heard anyone make this claim on this forum, either...on another forum someone said he was making himself out to be a prophet & I whole-heartedly do not believe that.

Some of the discussion here reminds me of other threads where EGW quotes are picked apart to see what they actually mean. That is what makes me think some might be getting distracted...no idea whose post gave me that impression & I don't want to go back and read it all again. It has just been bothering me so I thought I posted my concerns. My post is intended as a cautionary note and I'll leave it up to the Holy Spirit to take it farther to any individual, or to just let it be.

Have a great day   :-D ...and drive quick through LV   :-o 
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 01, 2008, 10:18:59 AM
DW,
Your emphasis on unbelief is interesting and so true.  Many think that this means all we have to believe is to believe that Jesus saved us and then do as we please.  But it is so much deeper than this.  To believe is to trust in what the word of God says and that we will do.  To believe is to still trust when it seems like evil is all around us and yet count it all joy that a living God is still beside us and counts every tear shed. 

newbie

As it was in the days of Noah....

What did EGW write in Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 95, 96, about the nominal professors of God in Noah's time? How many of them went on the ark?

Further on, in Notebook Leafs, Vol. 1, p. 103, she wrote:
     "There are special duties to be done, special reproofs to be given in this period of the earth's history. The Lord will not leave His church without reproofs and warnings. Sins have become fashionable; but they are none the less aggravating in the sight of God. They are glossed over, palliated, and excused; the right hand of fellowship is given to the very men who are bringing in false theories and false sentiments, confusing the mind of the people of God, deadening their sensibilities as to what constitutes right principles. Conscience has thus become insensible to the counsels and the reproofs which have been given. The light given, calling to repentance, has been extinguished in the clouds of unbelief and opposition brought in by human plans and human inventions."
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 01, 2008, 10:21:17 AM
I have not heard anyone make this claim on this forum, either...on another forum someone said he was making himself out to be a prophet & I whole-heartedly do not believe that.

Some of the discussion here reminds me of other threads where EGW quotes are picked apart to see what they actually mean. That is what makes me think some might be getting distracted...no idea whose post gave me that impression & I don't want to go back and read it all again. It has just been bothering me so I thought I posted my concerns. My post is intended as a cautionary note and I'll leave it up to the Holy Spirit to take it farther to any individual, or to just let it be.

Have a great day   :-D ...and drive quick through LV   :-o 

Thanks for the clarification.

Hope it is a long time before I have to go back to places like LV, or Chicago, etc.  :fear:
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on October 01, 2008, 10:28:59 AM
You take one quote from Sister White regarding notices about the destruction of New York, and wrongfully try to apply them to David's message.

There are many other statements on this too. For example 1SM 180 or GW 383. That would be a profitable discussion--a study from the Bible and SOP why the statement from Evangelism does or does not apply. It certainly appears to apply to me. Otherwise I've said enough on this matter. :-)
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 01, 2008, 10:55:06 AM
That would be a profitable discussion--a study from the Bible and SOP why that does or does not apply. It certainly appears to apply to me. Otherwise I've said enough. :-)

Tony, again, I do not question your sincerity. But it is obvious you quoted one paragraph and used that as the basis for your accusations against David Gates' messages. Let's read the next paragraph:

     "I have sent cautions to the brethren working in New York, saying that these flaming, terrifying notices should not be published. When my brethren go to extremes, it reacts on me, and I have to bear the reproach of being called a false prophet.
     "Think you that if I had said that New York would be destroyed by a tidal wave, I should have urged the purchase of property only sixty miles away from this city, as a sanitarium site, and a place from which New York could be worked?--Letter 176, 1903."    Evangelism, p. 387, 388.

So, why did Ellen White write as she did?

1) A minister/evangelist posted notices that New York City would be destroyed by tidal wave or fire shortly after Ellen White urged that a property within sixty miles be purchased in order to base a ministry where evangelism of New York City could be carried out. Such a notice was detrimental to the work because it influenced people not to give of means in support of such a sanitarium, and caused people to doubt Ellen White as a genuine prophet of God.

2) There was no empirical evidence that such an event would occur.

On the contrary,  David Gates has been telling about impending economical collapse in the United States because missions need our money, and we have been selfishly spending it on ourselves. He is telling the people of the shortness of time, and that soon we will not be able to contribute to the work with the freedom we once had. This is not sensationalism. It is reality. And all one needs to believe that a collapse of our economy will effect the whole world is to look back at 1929. Germany was the worst hit as a result of USA's collapse. It certainly assisted in the promotion of a certain corporal to Dictator.

The signs are fulfilling all around us, and it is dangerous to cry Peace and Safety, we recovered from 1929 so we can certainly recover from this, when God is calling us to repent of our selfishness.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on October 01, 2008, 11:26:29 AM
This discussion is moving in a much more profitable direction. :-)

So it's possible things are as you say. However the statement I mentioned was written July 5, 1906. The paragraphs you quoted were written in August 3, 1903--or three years earlier. Not sure they refer to the same event.

I don't have time to write more now, but here are two more passages to consider:

Now there are in the lessons of Christ, subjects in abundance that you can speak upon. And mysteries which neither you nor your hearers can understand or explain might better be left alone. Give the Lord Jesus Christ room Himself to teach; let Him by the influence of His Spirit open to the understanding the wonderful plan of salvation.  There is a time of trouble coming to the people of God, but we are not to keep that constantly before the people, and rein them up to have a time of trouble beforehand. There is to be a shaking among God's people, but this is not the present truth to carry to the churches.... Satan's object is accomplished just as surely when men run ahead of Christ and do the work He has never entrusted to their hand, as when they remain in the Laodicean state, lukewarm, feeling rich and increased with goods, and in need of nothing. The two classes are equally stumbling blocks.... Let the plain, simple statements of the Word of God be food for the mind; this speculating upon ideas that are not clearly presented there is dangerous business.  {1SM 180-181}

While the "theatrical style" arguable doesn't apply, other aspects of this could. "Some ministers make the mistake of supposing that success depends on drawing a large congregation by outward display, and then delivering the message of truth in a theatrical style. But this is using common fire instead of the sacred fire of God's kindling. The Lord is not glorified by this manner of working. Not by startling notices and expensive display is His work to be carried to completion, but by following Christlike methods. 'Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.' [ZECH. 4:6.] It is the naked truth which, like a sharp, two-edged sword, cuts both ways, arousing to spiritual life those who are dead in trespasses and sins. Men will recognize the gospel when it is brought to them in a way that is in harmony with God's purposes." {GW 383.2}

There's much more to be learned on this subject. Please continue to contribute passages that are relevant.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on October 01, 2008, 11:39:33 AM
There are many other statements on this too. For example 1SM 180 or GW 383. That would be a profitable discussion--a study from the Bible and SOP why the statement from Evangelism does or does not apply. It certainly appears to apply to me. Otherwise I've said enough on this matter. :-)

You cannot be serious, Tony. I read through the pages you quote. There is very little if anything comparable to David's situation. He has a broad ministry where much time is spent in sharing the wonderful providence of God in reaching and saving souls. I believe the reason that he has preached some on the shortness of time and the economic crisis is because others, Hmmm,  have been down playing it and saying that" America is strong economically." Elder Ed Reid. stewardship director for the General Conference, has said exactly that. While fear should not be the reason for sharing some of what David has said, and I don't believe in his case this is behind his message... by the same token...fear should not lead us in a path of denial. I think if you really had a grasp on the financial numbers involved in our economic situation you would not be so hesitant to believe. While we should not bring on a time of trouble ahead of time we should not pretend when it is knocking at the door that it could be far distant. While God is trying to stir His people to consecrated action some are trying to cradle them back to sleep by essentially saying this is all sensational. When even those in Babylon are getting worried it is past time that God's people shake the cob webs, fall on our knees, and then go to work. A perfect example is the fact that many of our people are still waiting for the call to come out of the cities and live in the country. The call came out a century ago and has been made ever since, yet some pay no attention and some are still waiting for a sign. Some are waiting for a Sunday law in order to get serious and others are waiting  for the conference leadership to tell them how near we are to the end.
    You are essentially claiming a missionary is date setting but this is not the case. Some seem to indicate that all David Gates is about is talking economic crisis simply because he has a couple of sermons that include this topic. He has many messages that deal with how God has been opening doors and leading in the missionary field.

 Laodicea is not in danger of being over stimulated. It is in danger of crib death.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on October 01, 2008, 11:50:03 AM
This discussion is moving in a much more profitable direction. :-)



Now there are in the lessons of Christ, subjects in abundance that you can speak upon. And mysteries which neither you nor your hearers can understand or explain might better be left alone. Give the Lord Jesus Christ room Himself to teach; let Him by the influence of His Spirit open to the understanding the wonderful plan of salvation.  There is a time of trouble coming to the people of God, but we are not to keep that constantly before the people, and rein them up to have a time of trouble beforehand. There is to be a shaking among God's people, but this is not the present truth to carry to the churches.... Satan's object is accomplished just as surely when men run ahead of Christ and do the work He has never entrusted to their hand, as when they remain in the Laodicean state, lukewarm, feeling rich and increased with goods, and in need of nothing. The two classes are equally stumbling blocks.... Let the plain, simple statements of the Word of God be food for the mind; this speculating upon ideas that are not clearly presented there is dangerous business.  {1SM 180-181}

cp>>> what is the mystery involved in the econmic crisis. Simply read the news. The mystery to me is how people can think otherwise. D Gates in not constantly keeping this matter before the people. Look at all his messages rather than picking a couple out and acting as though this is all there is. The simple statements of God inlcude .... there is coming a time of trouble such as never was and get ready... get ready...get ready! This is what I have been hearing from DGs. <<<<

While the "theatrical style" arguable doesn't apply, other aspects of this could. "Some ministers make the mistake of supposing that success depends on drawing a large congregation by outward display, and then delivering the message of truth in a theatrical style. But this is using common fire instead of the sacred fire of God's kindling. The Lord is not glorified by this manner of working. Not by startling notices and expensive display is His work to be carried to completion, but by following Christlike methods. 'Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.' [ZECH. 4:6.] It is the naked truth which, like a sharp, two-edged sword, cuts both ways, arousing to spiritual life those who are dead in trespasses and sins. Men will recognize the gospel when it is brought to them in a way that is in harmony with God's purposes." {GW 383.2}

cp>>> Please share how and where this second quote appilies<<<

There's much more to be learned on this subject. Please continue to contribute passages that are relevant.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 01, 2008, 07:08:21 PM
...
So it's possible things are as you say. However the statement I mentioned was written July 5, 1906. The paragraphs you quoted were written in August 3, 1903--or three years earlier. Not sure they refer to the same event.
...
There's much more to be learned on this subject. Please continue to contribute passages that are relevant.

I don't know where you get the July 5, 1906 date for New York. The entire quote from Evangelism is as follows:

"Startling Notices Detrimental.--Some time ago Elder _____ got out some very startling notices regarding the destruction of New York. I wrote immediately to the ones in charge of the work there, saying that it was not wise to publish such notices, that thus an excitement might be aroused which would result in a fanatical movement, hurting the cause of God. It is enough to present the truth of the Word of God to the people. Startling notices are detrimental to the progress of His work. . . . {Ev 387.3}

     I have sent cautions to the brethren working in  [388] New York, saying that these flaming, terrifying notices should not be published. When my brethren go to extremes, it reacts on me, and I have to bear the reproach of being called a false prophet.

     Think you that if I had said that New York would be destroyed by a tidal wave, I should have urged the purchase of property only sixty miles away from this city, as a sanitarium site, and a place from which New York could be worked?--Letter 176, 1903." {Ev 388.1

What is quoted is from the same letter, dated 1903. You claim to have quoted from 1906, but do not supply proof of your claim. But when I keyed in "destruction York"/10, the passage from Evangelism is the only hit to come up.

Tony, you are giving the wrong message. You are misapplying quotes, and stubbornly clinging to your allegations. Nuff sed.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on October 02, 2008, 07:21:53 AM
"We are to be ready every day." "We are to be ready for Christ to come now." This has been said and it is true. Even so, this reminds me to a certain extent of the person who replies about keeping the Sabbath, "but we are to keep every day holy" or "we are to serve God every day."  While this is true in the proper context it does not take awy from a specific command or counsel. In  a similar way , because we are to be ready now for Christ to come does not negate the need to be watchful , anticipate the signs, and alert those who may be less prepared, that the time is at hand. One fact, in context, does not wash out another.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: ejclark on October 03, 2008, 05:47:48 AM
Someone told me the other day that David is promoting one of Ernie Knoll's dreams.  The one about 1 in 800 birds making it somewhere.  I've not read the dream, nor have I had a chance to listen to David in quite some time. 

I hope what I've heard is not true.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: countrymouse on October 03, 2008, 06:18:28 AM
Does David Gates have a website?
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Kevin Barrett on October 03, 2008, 07:16:50 AM
Does David Gates have a website?

http://gospelministry.org/blog/?page_id=451 (http://gospelministry.org/blog/?page_id=451)
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: reaching4heaven on October 03, 2008, 07:28:04 AM
Someone told me the other day that David is promoting one of Ernie Knoll's dreams.  The one about 1 in 800 birds making it somewhere.  I've not read the dream, nor have I had a chance to listen to David in quite some time. 

I hope what I've heard is not true.

From what I have read on threads with this forum, David Gates had one sermon that he advocated E.Knoll's drems & has since changed his view of them. That one sermon distributed is what people are probably refering to, and they have not heard that he no longer supports E.Knoll. Perhaps someone more in the know has a link to a statement from D. Gates on this?
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: ejclark on October 03, 2008, 09:48:33 AM
From what I have read on threads with this forum, David Gates had one sermon that he advocated E.Knoll's drems & has since changed his view of them. That one sermon distributed is what people are probably refering to, and they have not heard that he no longer supports E.Knoll. Perhaps someone more in the know has a link to a statement from D. Gates on this?

Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Pamela Adams on October 03, 2008, 04:09:43 PM
Dalfie has that information.......

Those DVD's were distributed during ASI and they were not suppose to be passed out because of David's change of heart towards E.K. dreams. It was an oversight of the ministry....
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Dalfie on October 04, 2008, 07:48:11 PM
It was published in the May 2008 Newsletter. I haven't reviewed Gates' website to see if he's since posted it, but when I checked in the past, the newsletters were not posted on his website.  Here, http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=2510.msg51575#msg51575, I posted a copy of the text of the May 2008 statement by David Gates. I verified his position a month or two ago, and it was still in line with his May statement.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: tevert on October 06, 2008, 07:33:19 AM
I've taken a few days off from posting to just consider what has been said, and give others time to share what they've found that relates to this in God's Word.

Posting here has been an interesting exercise. I was disappointed that some of the discussion was personal ("In commenting upon the actions and motives of another, who can be certain of speaking the exact truth?" MB 68). I've seen that every opportunity for sharing teaches things about sharing truth and its reception. And I appreciate the opportunity God gives to continue learning how to teach more effectively--something I desire very much!

The dates related to passages in EV are easily located on the EGW CD-ROM or White Estate web site search. (Or see LS 411.) The EV passage I quoted made reference back to the original situation, and used it as an example to give broader counsel. It applies to what we're discussing.

In my study, I've found that using impending worldly calamities (regardless of their magnitude) to motivate spiritual life and wake people up will not have the desired effect. We need to wake up now--it is practically too late--but we need to do so for better reasons.

I have no hard feelings toward anyone here, and ask forgiveness if anything I have said has unintentionally caused hard feelings. While I disagree, we do not need to let that bring disharmony. "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." John 13:35. I appreciate every one of you.

And the caution has been given to the best of my ability. In the past few days studying this I have read a number of new relevant passages. PM me if you're interested or if you have any questions. :-) That's all for now.

Love,

Tony
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on October 06, 2008, 11:36:55 AM
I've taken a few days off from posting to just consider what has been said, and give others time to share what they've found that relates to this in God's Word.

In my study, I've found that using impending worldly calamities (regardless of their magnitude) to motivate spiritual life and wake people up will not have the desired effect. We need to wake up now--it is practically too late--but we need to do so for better reasons.

I look at this alittle like the topic of hellfire. It is not a good motivator but it gets one's attention... potentially. I don't think many of our people are giving the wake up call as a main motivator but to help stop the natural tendency to drift off. There are those among us that love the
Lord but tend to get lax. Perhaps this is true of all of us. World events are reminders and a reality check. God uses these events to get the attention of His people. If He uses them it seems in order that our preaching include them.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on October 06, 2008, 01:10:16 PM
I've taken a few days off from posting to just consider what has been said, and give others time to share what they've found that relates to this in God's Word.

Posting here has been an interesting exercise. I was disappointed that some of the discussion was personal ("In commenting upon the actions and motives of another, who can be certain of speaking the exact truth?" MB 68). I've seen that every opportunity for sharing teaches things about sharing truth and its reception. And I appreciate the opportunity God gives to continue learning how to teach more effectively--something I desire very much!

Love,

Tony

Hi Tony,
Hang in there if you can. I for one have appreciated very much your posting so far. It is clear that your posting is done in a spirit filled way.

You definitely have to have thick skin while posting on here. There are only a few (maybe even just one) individual(s) who is strongly opinionated and quite judgmental. It seems like that unless you agree with their view, then you stand the risk of a put down. Pastor O'Ffill even referred to these folks as "it's either their way or the highway".

On the other hand, I have found a very good supportive group on here. Some of them are just a little quieter than others, but I think they appreciate what you bring here as well.

Stan
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 06, 2008, 06:26:45 PM
Hi Tony,
Hang in there if you can. I for one have appreciated very much your posting so far. It is clear that your posting is done in a spirit filled way.

You definitely have to have thick skin while posting on here. There are only a few (maybe even just one) individual(s) who is strongly opinionated and quite judgmental. It seems like that unless you agree with their view, then you stand the risk of a put down. Pastor O'Ffill even referred to these folks as "it's either their way or the highway".

On the other hand, I have found a very good supportive group on here. Some of them are just a little quieter than others, but I think they appreciate what you bring here as well.

Stan

Stan, this comment, while intending to be encouraging to Tony, is nothing more than a strong indicator of your willingness to accept Bible and SOP based reproof. From all your posts I have seen a tendency to call those who are like you "spirit filled". While all who disagree with you are "strongly opinionated and quite judgmental."

Let's face the facts. If any one of us believes and teaches a lie, we will be found outside the New Jerusalem for loving and clinging to a lie. And if we stubbornly refuse to accept truth, well, the Bible clearly tells us that stubborness is the same as witchcraft and idolatry.

Now Tony has been trying to teach Peace and Safety, despite the times we live in. The judgments of God are already starting to fall upon this nation, and he is willing to admit we must all get ready, but not pay attention to the signs of God's merciful warning. Rather, he would attack David Gates, and in every way possible make it look like he is a fanatic, an extremist, who would make our lives unnecessarily difficult by bringing on premature persecution. And then tries to make it sound like we have attacked him by getting personal, despite the fact that he was the first to get personal by intimating we were perhaps prejudiced in our thinking. Then he basically states that its okay to disagree, because disagreeing doesn't mean that we are out of harmony.

"Can two walk together except they be agreed?" Amos 3:3.

Perhaps we could better understand what is really going on, and how some are giving the wrong message, an uncertain sound of the trumpet, as we see the signs of the times unfolding before our very eyes, if we can understand what it means to give a united testimony.

"The testimony of every believer in the truth must be as one. All your little differences, which arouse the combative spirit among brethren, are devices of Satan to divert minds from the great and fearful issue before us. The true peace will come among God's people when through united zeal and earnest prayer the false peace that exists to a large degree is disturbed. Now there is earnest work to do. Now is the time to manifest your soldierly qualities; let the Lord's people present a united front to the foes of God and truth and righteousness. . . ."   3SM 20.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 06, 2008, 06:28:38 PM
I don't know where you get the July 5, 1906 date for New York. The entire quote from Evangelism is as follows:

"Startling Notices Detrimental.--Some time ago Elder _____ got out some very startling notices regarding the destruction of New York. I wrote immediately to the ones in charge of the work there, saying that it was not wise to publish such notices, that thus an excitement might be aroused which would result in a fanatical movement, hurting the cause of God. It is enough to present the truth of the Word of God to the people. Startling notices are detrimental to the progress of His work. . . . {Ev 387.3}

     I have sent cautions to the brethren working in  [388] New York, saying that these flaming, terrifying notices should not be published. When my brethren go to extremes, it reacts on me, and I have to bear the reproach of being called a false prophet.

     Think you that if I had said that New York would be destroyed by a tidal wave, I should have urged the purchase of property only sixty miles away from this city, as a sanitarium site, and a place from which New York could be worked?--Letter 176, 1903." {Ev 388.1

What is quoted is from the same letter, dated 1903. You claim to have quoted from 1906, but do not supply proof of your claim. But when I keyed in "destruction York"/10, the passage from Evangelism is the only hit to come up.

Tony, you are giving the wrong message. You are misapplying quotes, and stubbornly clinging to your allegations. Nuff sed.

Tony, you have still to clear up this matter of the differences in dates.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: colporteur on October 06, 2008, 07:17:03 PM
There are also people on this forum who are in apostasy and try to give the appearance of being SDA. They insideously go after the health message and the SOP. They reject much of the SOP that does not suit their liberal opinions and then quote it when they can missaplly it and act as though it is authoratative when they do not believe it carries much weight.  You will know them as they do this under the guise of "the Bible only." The problem they have is that the Bible says the remnant church would have the SOP and  II Chronicles 20:20 says to believe the prophets and prosper.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: newbie on October 07, 2008, 06:10:38 PM
There are also people on this forum who are in apostasy and try to give the appearance of being SDA. They insideously go after the health message and the SOP. They reject much of the SOP that does not suit their liberal opinions and then quote it when they can missaplly it and act as though it is authoratative when they do not believe it carries much weight.  You will know them as they do this under the guise of "the Bible only." The problem they have is that the Bible says the remnant church would have the SOP and  II Chronicles 20:20 says to believe the prophets and prosper.

I'm with you Cp.  There is a clear message if we would only take it to heart and sacrifice a little in order to be ready on all cylinders. 
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Asian Missionary on October 10, 2008, 08:44:56 AM
I believe we are giving brother Gates more attention than he deserves
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Ruth on October 10, 2008, 01:15:18 PM
... the gates of hell cannot prevail! The stock market crashing, notwithstanding!

Hallelujah! :yay:
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deep Waters on October 11, 2008, 02:19:01 AM
....David Gates has said what he has said. The question is, what are you going to do with it? Are you going to prepare for Christ
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: MissionPilot on October 19, 2008, 10:24:09 PM
Greetings to everone from Australia where I have been invited for a few weeks of speaking appointments and also the wedding of our third daughter (yesterday). My wife and I are taking a few days of rest before hitting the road again, and while surfing I ran across your forum on David Gates. I read all nine pages with interest and deeply appreciated the spiritual balance and Christian tone demonstrated there. Thank you.

I could say thanks and good bye, but I think I will take the chance to verify a few items, at least from my point of view, just for the record.

1. I've dedicated my life to mission service, and my ministry to rescuing souls. It seems that the main development of my ministry has been to wake up God's people to the reality of the shortness of time and encourage them to make the vital spiritual and physical preparations necessary to survive the events coming upon the world and carry out the mission set out before them.  It is painful to me to see that perhaps in my human frailty, I may not have gotten the same message across to everyone. I was totally surprised to see the tremendous response to those sermons on The Converging Crisis. I didn't expect it at all. It was just a sermon among hundreds of others. Though some have reacted in caution, the vast majority seem to have reacted with a revival and reformation, for which I am deeply grateful.

2. As I speak across the world, I can see that there is a great awakening happening everywhere.  This must surely make the enemy quite nervous. Thus we should not be surprised at seeing a polarization happening. It is painful but necessary. it is called a shaking and it immediately precedes the crisis that will reveal everyone's position. We should feel free to pray for each other, correct each other in the Lord, and keep each other balanced. This is what a body should be like.

3. It is absolutely necessary that God be placed at the center. When He is lifted up, he will draw all men unto Him.  For the past 12 years, this has been what I have tried to do.  Yet, when I clearly saw a storm coming, I acted like the captain of an airplane (which I am).  "We are about to enter severe turbulence ahead. Please fasten your seat belt."  It was not my intention to take the focus away from the Bible or the SOP. Rather simply to draw attention to the storm ahead as one of the signs of the times. I thought I was trying to say, get your spiritual and your physical life in order. Jesus is coming. However, in some ways it appears that I didn't get that message across like I wanted. God knows my heart however. But there is one thing that is certain. Those that don't wake up now, may never have another chance to do it. Once the crisis strikes as an "overwhelming surprise" it will be too late to prepare.

4. Regarding Ernie Knolls, my early support came after people wrote and called me asking for an opinion. I and five other pastors could not find any heresy on the website so I came out in public support. That was a mistake. I should have kept my advice to individual advice and I should have waited. Later I discovered that behind the website is quite another story.  Through this painful experience God taught me a lesson and kept me humble.   God has blessed our ministry worldwide because we move immediately when we see an opportunity. Yet moving fast has its dangers. But I am encouraged to read

"It is even more excusable to make a wrong decision sometimes than to be continually in a wavering position; to be hesitating, sometimes inclined in one direction, then in another. More perplexity and wretchedness result from thus hesitating and doubting than from sometimes moving too hastily." GW, p 135

I close wishing God's blessing on each of you and your homes.  See you on the front lines.

Your brother in Christ,

David Gates
<davico@gospelministry.org>

"God has given me a message for His people. They must awake, spread their tents, and enlarge their borders." ChS, p. 110
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Larry Lyons on October 20, 2008, 09:50:32 AM
Greetings to everone from Australia where I have been invited for a few weeks of speaking appointments and also the wedding of our third daughter (yesterday). My wife and I are taking a few days of rest before hitting the road again, and while surfing I ran across your forum on David Gates. I read all nine pages with interest and deeply appreciated the spiritual balance and Christian tone demonstrated there. Thank you.

I could say thanks and good bye, but I think I will take the chance to verify a few items, at least from my point of view, just for the record.

1. I've dedicated my life to mission service, and my ministry to rescuing souls. It seems that the main development of my ministry has been to wake up God's people to the reality of the shortness of time and encourage them to make the vital spiritual and physical preparations necessary to survive the events coming upon the world and carry out the mission set out before them.  It is painful to me to see that perhaps in my human frailty, I may not have gotten the same message across to everyone. I was totally surprised to see the tremendous response to those sermons on The Converging Crisis. I didn't expect it at all. It was just a sermon among hundreds of others. Though some have reacted in caution, the vast majority seem to have reacted with a revival and reformation, for which I am deeply grateful.

2. As I speak across the world, I can see that there is a great awakening happening everywhere.  This must surely make the enemy quite nervous. Thus we should not be surprised at seeing a polarization happening. It is painful but necessary. it is called a shaking and it immediately precedes the crisis that will reveal everyone's position. We should feel free to pray for each other, correct each other in the Lord, and keep each other balanced. This is what a body should be like.

3. It is absolutely necessary that God be placed at the center. When He is lifted up, he will draw all men unto Him.  For the past 12 years, this has been what I have tried to do.  Yet, when I clearly saw a storm coming, I acted like the captain of an airplane (which I am).  "We are about to enter severe turbulence ahead. Please fasten your seat belt."  It was not my intention to take the focus away from the Bible or the SOP. Rather simply to draw attention to the storm ahead as one of the signs of the times. I thought I was trying to say, get your spiritual and your physical life in order. Jesus is coming. However, in some ways it appears that I didn't get that message across like I wanted. God knows my heart however. But there is one thing that is certain. Those that don't wake up now, may never have another chance to do it. Once the crisis strikes as an "overwhelming surprise" it will be too late to prepare.

4. Regarding Ernie Knolls, my early support came after people wrote and called me asking for an opinion. I and five other pastors could not find any heresy on the website so I came out in public support. That was a mistake. I should have kept my advice to individual advice and I should have waited. Later I discovered that behind the website is quite another story.  Through this painful experience God taught me a lesson and kept me humble.   God has blessed our ministry worldwide because we move immediately when we see an opportunity. Yet moving fast has its dangers. But I am encouraged to read

"It is even more excusable to make a wrong decision sometimes than to be continually in a wavering position; to be hesitating, sometimes inclined in one direction, then in another. More perplexity and wretchedness result from thus hesitating and doubting than from sometimes moving too hastily." GW, p 135

I close wishing God's blessing on each of you and your homes.  See you on the front lines.

Your brother in Christ,

David Gates
<davico@gospelministry.org>

"God has given me a message for His people. They must awake, spread their tents, and enlarge their borders." ChS, p. 110

Greetings David. Thank you for your kind response to our discussion of your sermons. I for one found your sermons to be valuable messages that the church needs to hear. Thank you for taking the time to vist our discussion forum.
May God bless you as you carry Gods work forward in your ministry.
Larry
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: countrymouse on October 20, 2008, 12:36:45 PM
Thanks David.  We played that DVD for Vespers in August.  I sent a lot of people to Audioverse to hear it before it was taken off.  When I heard it was taken off I emailed a complaint to Audioverse which did no good as I expected but at least I got my two cents in.  Please keep telling it as you see it.   :-)
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Deborah Risinger on October 20, 2008, 12:52:26 PM
Hello David...I must say, you have made (for Christ's sake) quite an impression in our church located in Potomac Conference....

May God keep you going...indeed, we will see you on the front lines !!!!!!!!

God's Blessings'
Deborah    :-)
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: wondering on October 20, 2008, 03:06:30 PM
Thanks David.  We played that DVD for Vespers in August.  I sent a lot of people to Audioverse to hear it before it was taken off.  When I heard it was taken off I emailed a complaint to Audioverse which did no good as I expected but at least I got my two cents in.  Please keep telling it as you see it.   :-)

What did you mean when you said "which did no good as I expected"?
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: countrymouse on October 20, 2008, 03:54:22 PM
What I meant was that MY email wasn't going to change their mind and put the sermon back on.  But I was hoping people would write in their opinion.  I just wanted to tell them I was disappointed that it was removed.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: wondering on October 20, 2008, 04:08:59 PM
What I meant was that MY email wasn't going to change their mind and put the sermon back on.  But I was hoping people would write in their opinion.  I just wanted to tell them I was disappointed that it was removed.

Ok. I personally wouldn't have assumed that they don't listen to a single email. But I understand what you meant. They seem like a solid setup to me, so I wouldn't have the same expectations you did.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 01, 2008, 02:41:33 AM
Ok. I personally wouldn't have assumed that they don't listen to a single email. But I understand what you meant. They seem like a solid setup to me, so I wouldn't have the same expectations you did.
It is good that they took it off. I watched the Converging Crises sermons for the first time last week. There is a problem with his support of Ernie, and he has written in  in bold red writing on the DVDs that he no longer supports Ernie's drems.  But the story of the "secret meeting" between the Christian Coalition, the two Catholic groups and the RC Cardinal is also false. He apparantly got that from Hal Mayer of Keep the Faith Ministries who got it from a guy in W. Virginia who had been a pastor there but was terminated by the conference for "ethical reasons" and who has a reputation for fabricating stories to make himself appear important. The RL dept. was already familiar with this person from a similar story he had floated previously.

This story was careful;ly investigated by an Attorney named Hamilton, if I recall correctly, who is the director of the North Pacific Union Religious Liberty Department. I read his report that was posted on another forum. He interviewed all of the people involved including the chairperson of the CC, the W. VA conference office, the offices of Namcy Pelosi and Al Gore who were claimed to have attended, and the Government security agency who supposedly coordinated the event. The only truth to the story was that there was a scheduled meeting of the Christian Coalition and the ex pastor from W. VA was there. He  is NOT a vice chairman of that organization but has some connection to their W.VA chapter. It was not a secret meeting and there was no discussion of a Sunday Law and no RC Cardinal or other Catholics present.

I don't blame David for believing the story. I highly respect him. The story fit right in with things he had been hearing about and preaching about and it is the kind of thing we expect to be happening at any time. I received the CD from Hal Mayer and had no reason to doubt it, but as is often the case, a careful examination of the details should have raised questions.

The GC RL department did not simply say that they could not confirm the story  as David reports in the sermon, and as Hal Mayer claimed, they clearly and emphatically said that the story is false.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: reaching4heaven on December 01, 2008, 05:51:30 AM
Thanks Larry. It's nice to know there were valid reasons for removing the sermon.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: kayyak on January 25, 2009, 08:30:36 AM
It is hard to take something back once it has been said.  We all do that I'm sure. I know that when I am teaching; I am very cautious about saying anything, unless I am totally sure it is a fact.  It is easy for someone to damage their own reptutation.  Satan loves that.   Maybe David needs to regroup, sort out what he wants to say before saying anything.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: Arnie on January 25, 2009, 10:42:26 AM
We all need to be careful in what we say. I can say of myself that I would take more time, and another say well that was not long enough, and another that was too long. Who is to say of what one may be thinking. David Gates made a public statement in regards to what happened quite awhile ago. By us hammering on this issue after the facts, more so since it was awhile ago, is just to keep on digging up old bones. I am certain that David Gates has already re-grouped. He is intelligent, and has already addressed what has happened. I am not here to advocate either for or against him. I know what I would want to see happen if it was me who had done this. Yet at the same time, I am quite well aware that those in leadership positions are to be highly accountable to God in what they say and do. But also, so are all of us who take on the name Christ. Many break the 3rd commandment daily by misrepresenting His name they claim.
Title: Re: David Gates
Post by: kayyak on January 25, 2009, 06:12:27 PM
  Salutes. :-D       YES SIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!