Revival Sermons

Theology => Justification => Topic started by: Richard OFfill on July 26, 2008, 09:48:14 AM

Title: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Richard OFfill on July 26, 2008, 09:48:14 AM

Which is more important Justification or Santification? What is the danger when we consider these topics?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on July 26, 2008, 10:24:37 AM
I will be guilty of plagiarism, but I once heard a very well respect preacher say, "Which is more important, getting married, or staying married?"  You can't have one without the other.  So it is with justification and sanctification.  Justification is not a destination, it is instantaneous.  Sanctification is also not a destination, it is a process.

I think the danger may be when we emphasize one over the other.  Usually it is the former that is overemphasized, at the expense of the latter.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on July 26, 2008, 10:28:37 AM
Which is more important Justification or Santification? What is the danger when we consider these topics?

Neither. The question I have is which one is most often viewed as optional in the church ? If sanctification is just as critical to salvation as justification and if the former is seen as less important, then under that scenerio the point might made that it Sanctification is more important because it is the side of the coin being neglected. To my thinking this is like asking which of the 10 commandments is most important?  Is the 4th commandment the most important? I believe the answer is yes and no. "No," in that if we break one law we have broken them all. Yes, in that the 4th is the most controverted.

Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Richard OFfill on July 26, 2008, 05:30:12 PM
I have commented on other occasions that the evangelicals have more to say about  commandments 7 and 8 (abortion and homosexuality). We must be careful not to preach only one. What about number 10?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Jim on July 26, 2008, 05:49:47 PM
What about number 10?

A most excellent question. #10 gets to the heart of the matter almost literally. Unlike the rest of the commandments most of the time there are no tell signs that it's been committed. Although there can be. There is a saying that character is what you do when no one is looking. I think character is what you think when you believe no one can read your thoughts.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on July 27, 2008, 03:04:13 AM
It is interesting that we often disfellowship people who break the 7th commandment, but I've never known on anyone who was disfellowshipped for breaking the 10th.  I have a feeling that our list of sins (most offensive versus least offensive) would read somewhat differently that God's.  I say that because of the text that lists pride as the first in a list of 7 sins the Lord hates.  Prov. 6:16-19.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on July 27, 2008, 06:25:58 AM
Which is more important Justification or Santification? What is the danger when we consider these topics?
They are both equally important.  The danger is that we overemphasize one at the expense of the other.  The result - either way - is distorted theology, neither of which glorify God or help us to to have the Christian experience or testimony that the Lord desires for us.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: El on July 27, 2008, 01:32:52 PM
I have commented on other occasions that the evangelicals have more to say about  commandments 7 and 8 (abortion and homosexuality). We must be careful not to preach only one. What about number 10?

Does not stealing usually come from coveting the thing that is stolen? And what about the 5th commandment?  'Honor thy father and thy mother'. Interesting!!! I have never heard of anyone losing membership for breaking these commandments.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: El on July 27, 2008, 06:21:18 PM
It is interesting that we often disfellowship people who break the 7th commandment, but I've never known on anyone who was disfellowshipped for breaking the 10th.  I have a feeling that our list of sins (most offensive versus least offensive) would read somewhat differently that God's.  I say that because of the text that lists pride as the first in a list of 7 sins the Lord hates.  Prov. 6:16-19.

I have never heard of any member losing membership for having or showing too much pride.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: reaching4heaven on July 27, 2008, 07:36:20 PM
I have never heard of any member losing membership for having or showing too much pride.

Could that be because pride is often a hidden heart problem, where as adultery or theft is not? What would the criterion be for knowing someone is prideful? Owning a house or car worth more than a certain amount? Clothing not bought at Wal-Mart or Sears? The outward appearance would only touch the issue...and may not even be a sign of pride(?).

Not getting after anyone on this part of the discussion, I am in agreement of what was said. Only thinking it would be a difficult reason to disfellowship people.

Also wondering if in past years when some were disfellowshipped when the Independent Movement swung through, if pride was an issue. I definitely experienced & saw hardness of heart on both sides. (This was the time I became an SDA, and it was through the Independents that I learned of SDAism.)
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on July 27, 2008, 07:40:49 PM
Probably pride is more difficult to identify than adultery and tends not to be as flagrant. I beleive often people comment on pride when they wish to take a light stance on other thing. What appears to be pride may not be anymore than an attempt to cover inferiority. Many times when people bragg about their accomplishments it is not because they are proud but that they are trying to be somebody because they think they are nobody and good for nothing. It may not be that they are trying to be better than others but that they want to be esteemed as well as others.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on July 28, 2008, 04:28:06 AM
Probably pride is more difficult to identify than adultery and tends not to be as flagrant. I beleive often people comment on pride when they wish to take a light stance on other thing. What appears to be pride may not be anymore than an attempt to cover inferiority. Many times when people bragg about their accomplishments it is not because they are proud but that they are trying to be somebody because they think they are nobody and good for nothing. It may not be that they are trying to be better than others but that they want to be esteemed as well as others.

Isn't it possible to be proud, even with low self esteem?  I believe pride is more pervasive than we may realize, and whether it stems from an attempt to counteract a low self image, or because of a big ego, it is still an undue fixation on self.  I was not trying to lessen the seriousness of sins such as adultery or stealing, etc., only pointing out that in God's eyes, the fornicating drunken thief lying in the gutter may be less guilty in the sight of God than the proud, hypocritical church "member-in-good-standing,"  who looks down on the open sinner, but, in his heart, may be harboring the same attitude as that of the Pharisee who went up to the temple to pray "with himself."  Pride and hypocrisy seem to be closely aligned.  I'm thinking of the Pharisees and Sadducees at the time of Christ as an example.  And I don't expect that anyone will ever be disfellowshipped for being proud, because that's one area in which we can't judge.  I was only pointing out that while we are horrified with these "grosser" sins, are we as horrified at the hidden sins in our own hearts?--such as pride--which bar us from the kingdom as readily as the other, more obvious sins.  I probably didn't say it very well.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Jim on July 28, 2008, 06:57:23 AM
I think the reason why other sins are dealt with more severely is because pride and covetousness does not affect other people until it's manifested in stealing, disrespect for parents, lying, etc.. etc..  Until it's manifested in such a manner you can not prove it one way or other. However, when your sins affect others in such a manner it's a different story and it needs to be dealt with. A person may be wishing(coveting) that they could steal something from someone but the fear of getting caught constrains them. Who here until that happened would dare go to someone say... "I know you're coveting."??
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: GraceVessel on July 28, 2008, 07:48:03 AM
I have been trying to come up with an example of Justification and Sanctification that explains why we as Christians have so much trouble defining this multifaceted issue:

Within the major protestant world today are two major concepts regarding justification and sanctification; both of which pertain to two schools of thought which I will define:

Calvinism: (they use an acronym called TULIP)

Total depravity - The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin.

Unconditional Election - The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.

Limited Atonement - Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", the doctrine of limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus' substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. The doctrine is driven by the concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and the Calvinistic understanding of the nature of the atonement. Namely, Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), and since, Calvinists argue, it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved.

Irresistable Grace - The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.  The doctrine does not hold that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

Perserverance of the Saints - Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security."

Armenianism: (widely held adventist view)

- Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation (see also prevenient grace).
- Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited.
- No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation.
- God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
- Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people.
- God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ.
- Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith.
 

Summary:

There are two sides of the ditch here that need to be noted. First, is that once me make the selection to follow God (predestined in the Calvinistic view), the deal is set and our walk of faith happens on autopilot (This is wrong).  Second, the other, is that, since we do not measure up to the callling of faith (Arminianism) (ie. salvation can be lost).  Our confidence in God's ability to provide grace for us is in flux and is lacking, ie the other side of the ditch.

Put simply, I am justified in Christ during my walk of faith.  At any point on the walk of faith, I am sanctified at each step as I grow in faith and grace.  Paul talked in the past tense, in the new testament, that he was sanctified.

Having a good understanding of both Calvinism and Arminianism has provided me a good framework from which to share the Good News of the TAM and also SDA specific truths, especially regarding the judgment (Calvinism beliefs all judgment ended at the cross) - Preterism.
(NOTE: You will find a duality in that judgment is Preteristically stipulated and Reformed Theology Eschatology is very Futurism oriented).

Hope this helps define what you are asking,

Best regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Lazarus on July 28, 2008, 07:56:19 AM
Thanks, GraceVessel, for this comparison of the Calvinist and Arminian views. I don't ever recall this comparison being discussed in any of the Sabbath School lessons or evangelical series I read or attended growing up SDA (although there were of course frequent and disparaging comments made regarding Once Saved Always Saved theology). It would have been helpful if it had been. On the other hand, the fact that it wasn't gave me an opportunity to seek the information out. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: El on July 28, 2008, 08:35:33 AM
Probably pride is more difficult to identify than adultery and tends not to be as flagrant. I believe often people comment on pride when they wish to take a light stance on other thing. What appears to be pride may not be anymore than an attempt to cover inferiority. Many times when people brag about their accomplishments it is not because they are proud but that they are trying to be somebody because they think they are nobody and good for nothing. It may not be that they are trying to be better than others but that they want to be esteemed as well as others.

Pride is more difficult to distinguish--but didn't the pride and vanity of Lucifer start the rebellion in heaven?  Lucifer was envious that he had not been included in the creation of the world.  Lucifer wanted to exalt himself.  There is no justification for the the terrible sin of Lucifer, the lightbearer--His pride and covetousness talked himself right into becoming Satan.  And one third of the angels listened, Eve listened, Adam chose to go the way of his wife, and here we are today. It all started with pride and coveting.  We still see it in our churches everytime the nominating committee works for the good of the church. Pride and envy is prevalent, and you are right, only God can deal with that kind of sin.  What does all this have to do with justification?  It is a personal thing and I guess that we all have to deal with it in our own way.  Can we be justified with these sins in our hearts?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 29, 2008, 01:17:46 PM
Quote
Sanctification is also not a destination, it is a process.

For me Sanctification happened in an instant. One moment I was unsanctified and the next .... I was sanctified.

And I now remain sanctified.

Sanctification by Faith. I gave my heart to God and I became sanctified. Set apart to be used by God.

I don't really like the term 'Justification by Faith". I prefer the term "Salvation by Faith".

No matter how much faith I have .... I can't be justified. I am sinful. But, I do have salvation because it was given to me. Why? Because HE is justified. Not me.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Jim on August 29, 2008, 01:43:57 PM
For me Sanctification happened in an instant. One moment I was unsanctified and the next .... I was sanctified.

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. {AA 560.3}
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 29, 2008, 03:12:41 PM
For me Sanctification happened in an instant. One moment I was unsanctified and the next .... I was sanctified.

And I now remain sanctified.

Sanctification by Faith. I gave my heart to God and I became sanctified. Set apart to be used by God.

I don't really like the term 'Justification by Faith". I prefer the term "Salvation by Faith".

No matter how much faith I have .... I can't be justified. I am sinful. But, I do have salvation because if was given to me. Why? Because HE is justified. Not me.
He Did It All, do you believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on August 29, 2008, 03:59:12 PM
For me Sanctification happened in an instant. One moment I was unsanctified and the next .... I was sanctified.

And I now remain sanctified.

Sanctification by Faith. I gave my heart to God and I became sanctified. Set apart to be used by God.

I don't really like the term 'Justification by Faith". I prefer the term "Salvation by Faith".

No matter how much faith I have .... I can't be justified. I am sinful. But, I do have salvation because if was given to me. Why? Because HE is justified. Not me.

Justification of the saints is a Biblical doctrine.  Rom. 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith . . . .  Titus 3:7 says that we are "justified by His grace."  James 2:21 says that Abraham was "justified by works."  Rom. 8:30 says that God justifies those whom He calls.  So, to say that you cannot be justified is unbiblical.  By accepting Jesus as one's personal Saviour, one is automatically justified, but not sanctified, as was pointed out by Jim.  If you accept the SOP, then you must accept the fact that sanctification is, as previously stated, is process which lasts a lifetime.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: newbie on August 29, 2008, 06:22:59 PM
For me Sanctification happened in an instant. One moment I was unsanctified and the next .... I was sanctified.

And I now remain sanctified.

Sanctification by Faith. I gave my heart to God and I became sanctified. Set apart to be used by God.

I don't really like the term 'Justification by Faith". I prefer the term "Salvation by Faith".

No matter how much faith I have .... I can't be justified. I am sinful. But, I do have salvation because if was given to me. Why? Because HE is justified. Not me.

What's the way.... how did it happen for you?  Can you tell us what we need to do to have what you have..... sanctification imparted.....  we all desire this...  Tell us please how to be at this point...  :)
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 29, 2008, 09:20:12 PM
Quote
He Did It All, do you believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved?

No.

I am sanctified ... or ..... set apart to be used by God. But, although I am set apart .... I do slip and become selfish.

I do fail.  But I am not sure that being "set apart" means that I will alway succeed. I don't know. We don't slip in and out of God's good graces like a yo-yo. I think that when we fail .... we are still in His good Graces and considered in the family of "set apart". And those set apart ask forgiveness when they become selfish and miss the mark.

Not sure if any of this makes sense to you?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 29, 2008, 09:26:10 PM
What's the way.... how did it happen for you?  Can you tell us what we need to do to have what you have..... sanctification imparted.....  we all desire this...  Tell us please how to be at this point...  :)

I became 'set apart to be used by God' at an early age. I had good faithful Adventist parents and teachers. Baptism was a big point in my life. I became set apart to be used by Him at that point. While I have been set apart .... I still do slip and not show that at times. But that does not remove the fact that I am still 'set apart to be used by God'.

I am glad that you also desire this. All you have to do is to give your heart to God and allow Him to direct you life. That is all it means ... saying to Jesus that you want to be set apart for His service.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 29, 2008, 09:34:58 PM
Quote
But, I do have salvation because it was given to me. Why? Because HE is justified. Not me.

I have salvation because of HIS justification .... not mine. I have no good in myself. Nothing I can do will make myself worthy. But I am counted as good because I accept Him .... and HE is justified through what He did 2,000 years ago.

Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 29, 2008, 09:54:24 PM
No.

I am sanctified ... or ..... set apart to be used by God. But, although I am set apart .... I do slip and become UN-Set Apart

I do fail.  But I am not sure that being "set apart" means that I will alway succeed. I don't know. We don't slip in and out of God's good graces like a yo-yo. I think that when we fail .... we are still in His good Graces and considered in the family of "set apart".

Not sure if any of this makes sense to you?
Yes, it makes perfect sense and I agree. God does not treat us like a yo yo. We may need to clarify  our definitions a bit but I think we are on the same wave length.
I believe that sanctification means being set apart for divine use, but it includes an inner cleansing and changing that the Holy Spirit does within us as we study the Word and bring our lives into conformity to His Word. That continues a process of sanctification which makes us more and more fit to be used for holy purposes.
I can agree also that it does happen in an instant. The moment we repent and give our hearts to the Lord and commit our lives to Him, we are declared "not guilty" of the sins of our past lives. Thats what justification is. At the same moment we are "sanctified" or set apart for Divine use and the cleansing and refining process starts.  Jesus is our Advocate and our High Priest who is ever watchful and ever ready to lift us up and plead his blood before the Father in our behalf when we stumble and fall. He will never let us go as long as we do not willfully turn away from God and reject His grace and go back to our old ways.  
As I see it, that gives us assurance of salvation, not because we have confidence in ourselves that we have "arrived"  but we trust Jesus as he ministers in our behalf in the sanctuary in heaven.  

Justification means that a person who is actually guilty, is declared not guilty. Jesus never needed justification because He was never guilty. "The wages of sin is death." Sin requires the death penalty. Jesus who is God and who is guiltless, became  man and died in our place. He has the perfect right to declare us not guilty or "justified" the instant we repent, ask God's forgivness  and commit our lives toi Him. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 29, 2008, 10:20:31 PM
Yes. I do think that we are pretty much in agreement. Except I would say we remain Sanctified until we declare we don't want to be. It is completed. We are sanctified. It is not a process. It is a done deal. Now, it would seem to me that 'growth' would be a process. But the act of setting yourself apart to be used by God  ....  is not a process. Either you do it or you don't.  Either you allow your life to be sanctified or you do not. But I do agree that we will continue to grow in the Lord and get to know Him and serve Him better as life goes on. That is the task of a lifetime. We will never stop growing. We will always have sins to overcome.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on August 30, 2008, 03:17:27 AM
Yes. I do think that we are pretty much in agreement. Except I would say we remain Sanctified until we declare we don't want to be. It is completed. We are sanctified. It is not a process. It is a done deal. Now, it would seem to me that 'growth' would be a process. But the act of setting yourself apart to be used by God  ....  is not a process. Either you do it or you don't.  Either you allow your life to be sanctified or you do not. But I do agree that we will continue to grow in the Lord and get to know Him and serve Him better as life goes on. That is the task of a lifetime. We will never stop growing. We will always have sins to overcome.

Go back and read Acts of the Apostles, p 560, especially the last paragraph.  It is clearly stated to be a process which lasts a lifetime.  Sanctification means more than just being set apart to be used by God.  In that sense only could it be said to be immediate and instantaneous (such as Paul's experience on the road to Damascus).  But it also means (as Larry pointed out, and as I alluded to earlier) the process whereby the character becomes like Christ's character.  That cannot happen in an instant.  "It is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. . . .  It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome."  That is obviously a lifelong process.  There is no stopping point this side of the grave or the Second Coming of Jesus.

It seems that we need to agree on a definition of terms or we will continue to talk past each other and be found in disagreement.  I accept the definition of sanctification as found in the Bible and the SOP.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 30, 2008, 07:32:27 AM
the word sanctify comes from the Latin prefix "sanct" meaning holy. The definition as found in the dictionary includes the following meanings:
1. consecrate, set apart as holy. 2. free from sin. 3. make legitimate or binding by religious sanction; justify. 4. make productive of conducive to holiness.

God can declare us not guilty of our past sins. He can instantly set us apart for holy use, but we do not reach a level of holiness or completeness or maturity that He would have us reach in an instant. It would be a mistake and obviously not true to claim that we have now been made completely holy. Our growth in Christ is in response to the workings of the Holy Spirit as we feed on God's word. That is the process of sanctifcation. It means being made holy in addition to being set apart for holy use.

So my point is, like Raven's, is that we have been set apart by God for holy use but that is not the whole story of sanctification. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 09:36:32 AM
Quote
I accept the definition of sanctification as found in the Bible and the SOP.

I'm glad to hear this. Let's look at the Bible.

The Bible says a house is sanctifed. Also, garments. A Tabernacle. Instruments. Vessels. Dead people.  A Sheep Gate. A Tower.

It talks about people 'sanctifying themselves'.

He speaks of those being sanctified before they were born.

Throughout the NT ... it says that we ARE sanctified. It talks about it being a done deal. Completed.

Through out the OT and NT it speaks of many specific individuals who ARE sanctified.

No where do I see that those who ARE sanctified are in some kind of incomplete process. The only process there is ... is that of growth. I think you are confusing 'growth' with being sanctified.

How long would it take for a house to be sanctifed. Also, garments. A Tabernacle. Instruments. Vessels. Dead people.  A Sheep Gate. A Tower.
These things do not have lifetimes. And again ... The Bible says that they ARE sanctified. They don't have to keep striving to be sanctified. They ARE.

I would point out that the book of Jude was written to those who ARE sanctified. He doesn't address it to those who are 'workin at it'.

In the next post ... I will provide some Bible texts for your consideration.



Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 09:49:26 AM
2 Chron. 7:16   "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house"

Lev. 8:30   "And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which [was] upon the altar, and sprinkled [it] upon Aaron, [and] upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, [and] his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him. "

Num. 7:1   "And it came to pass on the day that Moses had fully set up the tabernacle, and had anointed it, and sanctified it, and all the instruments thereof, both the altar and all the vessels thereof, and had anointed them, and sanctified them."

Num.  8:17  " For all the firstborn of the children of Israel [are] mine, [both] man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself. "

1 Sam.   7:1   "And the men of Kirjathjearim came, and fetched up the ark of the LORD, and brought it into the house of Abinadab in the hill, and sanctified Eleazar his son to keep the ark of the LORD."

1 Sam. 16:5   "And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice."

2 Chron 7:16   "For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually."

2 Chron 29:15   "And they gathered their brethren, and sanctified themselves, and came, according to the commandment of the king, by the words of the LORD, to cleanse the house of the LORD."

Neh.  3:1   "Then Eliashib the high priest rose up with his brethren the priests, and they builded the sheep gate; they sanctified it, and set up the doors of it; even unto the tower of Meah they sanctified it, unto the tower of Hananeel. "

Job 1:4 -5  "And his sons went and feasted [in their] houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.  And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them."

Jeremiah 1:5   "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

John 17:19  " And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

John  10:36   "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? "

Acts   26:18  " To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. "

1 Cor. 6:11   "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Heb.  2:11   "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren"

Heb. 10:10   "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]."

Heb. 10:14   "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Jude 1:1   "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father"





Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 10:16:30 AM
Of all the previous list of texts ... Let's just focus on this one ...

Quote
Heb. 10:14   "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Those of us who ARE sanctified .... ARE sanctified FOREVER ... through His one offering.

These sanctified ones are not in some process of trying to be sanctified. They are forever sanctified.

Don't confuse this with once saved always saved. We can reject our sanctified status. But we do not have
to jump back and forth with being sanctified and not being sanctified.

HE did it ALL ....
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: SDA4Life on August 30, 2008, 10:21:58 AM
"True sanctification is a Bible doctrine. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonian church, declares: "This is the will of God, even your sanctification." And he prays: "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly." 1 Thessalonians 4:3; 5:23. The Bible clearly teaches what sanctification is and how it is to be attained. The Saviour prayed for His disciples: "Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth." John 17:17. And Paul teaches that believers are to be "sanctified by the Holy Ghost." Romans 15:16. What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Jesus told His disciples: "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." John 16:13. And the psalmist says: "Thy law is the truth." By the word and the Spirit of God are opened to men the great principles of righteousness embodied in His law. And since the law of God is "holy, and just, and good," a transcript of the divine perfection, it follows that a character formed by obedience to that law will be holy. Christ is a perfect example of such a character. He says: "I have kept My Father's commandments." "I do always those things that please Him." John 15:10; 8:29. The followers of Christ are to become like Him--by the grace of God to form characters in harmony with the principles of His holy law. This is Bible sanctification.

This work can be accomplished only through faith in Christ, by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God. Paul admonishes believers: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12, 13. The Christian will feel the promptings of sin, but he will maintain a constant warfare against it. Here is where Christ's help is needed. Human weakness becomes united to divine strength, and faith exclaims: "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 15:57.

The Scriptures plainly show that the work of sanctification is progressive. When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. Now he is to "go on unto perfection;" to grow up "unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Says the apostle Paul: "This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:13, 14. And Peter sets before us the steps by which Bible sanctification is to be attained: "Giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. . . . If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:5-10.

Those who experience the sanctification of the Bible will manifest a spirit of humility. Like Moses, they have had a view of the awful majesty of holiness, and they see their own unworthiness in contrast with the purity and exalted perfection of the Infinite One.

...

There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary's cross. They feel that it was their sin which caused the agony that broke the heart of the Son of God, and this thought will lead them to self-abasement. Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour.

The sanctification now gaining prominence in the religious world carries with it a spirit of self-exaltation and a disregard for the law of God that mark it as foreign to the religion of the Bible. Its advocates teach that sanctification is an instantaneous work, by which, through faith alone, they attain to perfect holiness. "Only believe," say they, "and the blessing is yours." No further effort on the part of the receiver is supposed to be required. At the same time they deny the authority of the law of God, urging that they are released from obligation to keep the commandments. But is it possible for men to be holy, in accord with the will and character of God, without coming into harmony with the principles which are an expression of His nature and will, and which show what is well pleasing to Him?" -- GC p. 469-471
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on August 30, 2008, 03:42:57 PM
Of all the previous list of texts ... Let's just focus on this one ...

Those of us who ARE sanctified .... ARE sanctified FOREVER ... through His one offering.

These sanctified ones are not in some process of trying to be sanctified. They are forever sanctified.

Don't confuse this with once saved always saved. We can reject our sanctified status. But we do not have
to jump back and forth with being sanctified and not being sanctified.

HE did it ALL ....

Do you or do you not accept the SOP as authoritative?  You seem to have ignored the references we have given you which clearly indicate the fact that sanctification is the work of a lifetime.  I have explained that there is much more to the concept of sanctification than simply "setting aside for a holy purpose," but you seem to either not understand this, or have ignored it.  If you disagree with Ellen White on this, then we have a problem, and will never find common ground on this issue.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 30, 2008, 03:47:52 PM
He Did It all, it sounds like what you are saying is that when we accept Jesus, we are "set apart" in other words "sanctified" and it is a "done deal" and the only way we can be lost is to turn around and reject the sanctification. Is that what you are saying?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 03:51:13 PM
I certainly believe in what Mrs. White has to say. And she has said to check all that she says with scripture. This is what I have done and what you have not been willing to address Raven. Perhaps you don't fully understand what Mrs. White is saying. We have to search with diligence. Have you completed this complete process and no longer need to search?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 03:53:16 PM
He Did It all, it sounds like what you are saying is that when we accept Jesus, we are "set apart" in other words "sanctified" and it is a "done deal" and the only way we can be lost is to turn around and reject the sanctification. Is that what you are saying?

Can you quote me where I have said that? I think the scripture I have quoted speak for themselves. Which scripture that I've quoted ... do you disagree with? What I am saying is that we simply can't wait to be 'set apart'. We can't wait for some long drawn out process. We have to be Sanctified NOW.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on August 30, 2008, 04:06:42 PM
I certainly believe in what Mrs. White has to say. And she has said to check all that she says with scripture. This is what I have done and what you have not been willing to address Raven. Perhaps you don't fully understand what Mrs. White is saying. We have to search with diligence. Have you completed this complete process and no longer need to search?

What is so hard to understand about her statement that "sanctification is the work of a lifetime?"  Either you accept it or you don't.  Her writiings have stood the test of time and Scripture.  That particular statement is not out of harmony with the rest of Scripture, but it would take me more than a few sentences in a few posts of flesh it out.  Someone else on this forum may be able to do it, but not me.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 04:10:49 PM
What is so hard to understand about her statement that "sanctification is the work of a lifetime?"  Either you accept it or you don't.  Her writiings have stood the test of time and Scripture.  That particular statement is not out of harmony with the rest of Scripture, but it would take me more than a few sentences in a few posts of flesh it out.  Someone else on this forum may be able to do it, but not me.

I'm not sure how someone else can explain your view. But I do appreciate you explaining. When we study anything ... we need to establish our terminology. Perhaps this would be a good start for you. Is sanctification referring to 'growth' or being 'set apart'? Could we start with that question? IF we are referring to 'growth' .... then I am in agreement. I would hate to see you bow out so soon. Please explain yourself now that you have made such charges.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on August 30, 2008, 04:41:18 PM
I'm not sure how someone else can explain your view. But I do appreciate you explaining. When we study anything ... we need to establish our terminology. Perhaps this would be a good start for you. Is sanctification referring to 'growth' or being 'set apart'? Could we start with that question? IF we are referring to 'growth' .... then I am in agreement. I would hate to see you bow out so soon. Please explain yourself now that you have made such charges.

It is not my view, but the view commonly held by the SDA Church.  If you will go back to my post earlier today (Reply #26), you'll see that I already defined the terms.  We seem to be talking past each other.  The kind of sanctification that I am talking about, and to which Sister White refers in AA 560, is indeed a process of growth.  No one is arguing that being sanctified, in the sense of being set apart for holy use, is a process, as the texts you cited so aptly show.  But, do you understand what she is talking about when she uses the term?  This is pretty basic SDA theology.

The main point of this thread is contrasting justification with sanctification, in the context of what they accomplish the life of a believer.  The thread started with Pastor O'Ffill asking which was more important, justification or sanctification.  This is the context of this thread.  It was not about the definition (as valid as it is) that includes the idea of "setting apart for a holy purpose."  That may be why we are currently immersed in this confusion.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 05:02:36 PM
Well .... I do think that we need to be reminded of the Biblical use of 'sanctified'. And like I said .... the idea of growth being referred to as Sanctification is something I acknowledge and that is what Ellen White uses to the  best of my knowledge. I think it is very helpful to be reminded of the Biblical use of the term Sanctified. Many get confused about this. And it appeared that you were. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 05:33:04 PM
Quote
"setting apart for a holy purpose."

This IS the meaning of being sanctified. Again ... we have to define our terms. Can you show me a different meaning from the Bible?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on August 30, 2008, 05:38:43 PM
This IS the meaning of being sanctified. Again ... we have to define our terms. Can you show me a different meaning from the Bible?

Given enough time, yes, but it won't be tonight--my brain starts losing clarity after about 8:30 p.m.

Unless I misunderstand you, and since you won't respond to the plain statement in AA, it seems that  you are implying that what she says is not Biblical.  Am I correct?  If so, we all know what that means.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on August 30, 2008, 05:57:04 PM
This IS the meaning of being sanctified. Again ... we have to define our terms. Can you show me a different meaning from the Bible?

I think you have read the Spirit of Prophecy statement that "sanctification is the work of a lifetime." Do you agree ?  II Chr. 20:20 last part especially.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 30, 2008, 06:24:20 PM
Well .... I do think that we need to be reminded of the Biblical use of 'sanctified'. And like I said .... the idea of growth being referred to as Sanctification is something I acknowledge and that is what Ellen White uses to the  best of my knowledge. I think it is very helpful to be reminded of the Biblical use of the term Sanctified. Many get confused about this. And it appeared that you were. I could be wrong.
According to Strongs, the Hebrew word "quadash" that is translated as sanctify or sanctified does not carry only one meaning. It can mean to consecrate, to make clean, to prepare, to purify, to keep or proclaim.

The Greek word "hagiadzo" also carries more than one meaning. It can mean to make holy, to purify, to consecrate or to venerate or to hallow, or to be holy.

There is not just one biblical meaning of the word sanctify.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 06:34:13 PM
According to Strongs, the Hebrew word "quadash" that is translated as sanctify or sanctified does not carry only one meaning. It can mean to consecrate, to make clean, to prepare, to purify, to keep or proclaim.

The Greek word "hagiadzo" also carries more than one meaning. It can mean to make holy, to purify, to consecrate or to venerate or to hallow, or to be holy.

There is not just one biblical meaning of the word sanctify.

Perhaps you could show us how 'sanctified' is used in the Bible.?
The people here didn't seem to appreciate it when I quoted this from the Bible.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 07:02:36 PM
Quote
A "Thus saith the Lord" is the strongest testimony you can possibly present to the people. Let none be educated to look to Sister White, but to the mighty God, who gives instruction to Sister White". (Letter 11, 1894.)
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: reaching4heaven on August 30, 2008, 07:50:47 PM
I have salvation because of HIS justification .... not mine. I have no good in myself. Nothing I can do will make myself worthy. But I am counted as good because I accept Him .... and HE is justified through what He did 2,000 years ago.

 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8: 29, 30


 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid." Galatians 2:16, 17

Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 07:57:30 PM
Yes. I agree ... Like I say ... I have salvation because of HIS justification .... not mine. I have no good in myself. Nothing I can do will make myself worthy. But I am counted as good because I accept Him .... and HE is justified through what He did 2,000 years ago.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: reaching4heaven on August 30, 2008, 08:23:58 PM
Yes. I agree ... Like I say ... I have salvation because of HIS justification .... not mine. I have no good in myself. Nothing I can do will make myself worthy. But I am counted as good because I accept Him .... and HE is justified through what He did 2,000 years ago.

You say you agree but what you write doesn't read like you agree.

Christ is not justified, those who follow Him are. Christ is already just. We aren't. By becoming followers of Him we are justified.

 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8: 29, 30

 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid." Galatians 2:16, 17
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 08:59:15 PM
Let me be clear. Jesus came to this earth. He perfectly obeyed the Law. He could have disobeyed the Law. Do you think if He failed that we would still have justification GIVEN to us? No. He had to earn it the old fashioned way. It is Him through which we have eternal life. And the reason is because of His doing and dying. Not because of any good works that we might do. Our good works do not earn us Justification.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: reaching4heaven on August 30, 2008, 09:12:16 PM
Our good works do not earn us Justification.

I never said good works earn us justification. Actually, I don't think anyone on here has said that they do. What I haven't heard said from you is that we are justified by Christ.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 09:41:55 PM
I never said good works earn us justification. Actually, I don't think anyone on here has said that they do. What I haven't heard said from you is that we are justified by Christ.

We are justified by Christ. He does the justifying. But ... it is because HE is just. It is because of HIS doing and dying. We are not just. It is HIS that is given to our account.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 30, 2008, 09:48:13 PM
According to Strongs, the Hebrew word "quadash" that is translated as sanctify or sanctified does not carry only one meaning. It can mean to consecrate, to make clean, to prepare, to purify, to keep or proclaim.

The Greek word "hagiadzo" also carries more than one meaning. It can mean to make holy, to purify, to consecrate or to venerate or to hallow, or to be holy.

There is not just one biblical meaning of the word sanctify.
HDIA, this is in response to your suggestion. The biblical meaning of sanctify, in addition to "set apart for holy use" is to "purify" or to "make clean," or "to prepare" a thing or a person so that they can be used for holy purposes. That does not happen in an instant with a person; It is an on-going process.
That is not what you have been saying.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 09:52:49 PM
I've stated that growth is a work of a lifetime and is a process.

But, what I was looking for ... was some Biblical 'examples' of the word "sanctified" being used in this context.

That is something that no one has been able to provide.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: reaching4heaven on August 30, 2008, 10:09:09 PM
We are justified by Christ. He does the justifying. But ... it is because HE is just. It is because of HIS doing and dying. We are not just. It is HIS that is given to our account.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: reaching4heaven on August 30, 2008, 10:12:43 PM
I've stated that growth is a work of a lifetime and is a process.

But, what I was looking for ... was some Biblical 'examples' of the word "sanctified" being used in this context.

That is something that no one has been able to provide.

My favorite:

John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Getting to know truth, God's word, is a process. It is not instantaneous.

and then there's:

Ephesians 5:25-27 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."  Again, it takes time to be "washed by the word."
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 30, 2008, 10:15:08 PM
I have salvation because of HIS justification .... not mine. I have no good in myself. Nothing I can do will make myself worthy. But I am counted as good because I accept Him .... and HE is justified through what He did 2,000 years ago.


HDIA, this is getting rather confusing. Here you are saying it is Jesus who is Justified through what He did 2000 years ago. I presume you mean His death on the cross.
You say "I am counted as good because I accept Him" but then you say Jesus himself was justified through what He did. I have never heard anyone say that Jesus ever needed justification.

In your last post you say that "we are justified by Christ." "It is because of His doing and dying." That is what most Christians believe. I don't know of any Christians who believe that Jesus justified Himself by His death which is what you seem to be saying in the above statement.



Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 10:33:11 PM
Quote
I have never heard anyone say that Jesus ever needed justification.

Thanks you Larry. I am happy to explain.

If Jesus was to save this Earth ... from their sins .... and be our Saviour ....

He needed to keep all of the commandments and live the perfect life.
If He had failed .... The wages of sin are death.

He needed justification ...
 to give to us ... so that He could give to us ... Eternal Life.
If He had failed ... He could not have been justified in giving us Eternal Life.
It is through HIS life that I am saved.

Praise God He is Just. And it is because of His being Just and True ... that I can have life.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 30, 2008, 10:49:58 PM
My favorite:

John 17:17 "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Getting to know truth, God's word, is a process. It is not instantaneous.

and then there's:

Ephesians 5:25-27 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."  Again, it takes time to be "washed by the word."


That wasn't the word I referred to ...
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on August 31, 2008, 03:04:41 AM
Thanks you Larry. I am happy to explain.

If Jesus was to save this Earth ... from their sins .... and be our Saviour ....

He needed to keep all of the commandments and live the perfect life.
If He had failed .... The wages of sin are death.

He needed justification ...
 to give to us ... so that He could give to us ... Eternal Life.
If He had failed ... He could not have been justified in giving us Eternal Life.
It is through HIS life that I am saved.

Praise God He is Just. And it is because of His being Just and True ... that I can have life.

Justification is to be declared righteous (through and because of the merits of Jesus).  Jesus did not need justification because He was inherently righteous from the moment He was born.  To say that He needed justification is to imply some imperfection in His character, which cannot be.  Justification is needed only by a sinner--which Jesus was not.

Still waiting for your response to AA 560.  Do you believe it or not?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: newbie on August 31, 2008, 07:52:19 AM
Justification is to be declared righteous (through and because of the merits of Jesus).  Jesus did not need justification because He was inherently righteous from the moment He was born.  To say that He needed justification is to imply some imperfection in His character, which cannot be.  Justification is needed only by a sinner--which Jesus was not.

Still waiting for your response to AA 560.  Do you believe it or not?

Jesus was righteous in terms of sanctified at birth but still did grow in the spirit as a youth as we are told.  Then, He glorified the Father and we will glorify Jesus just before He comes. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on August 31, 2008, 08:49:31 AM
This could be easily misunderstood..... but in the ultimate sense Christ did not do it all. If ultimately He did it all then everyone on the planet is saved irrespective of how they respond or do not respond.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 09:37:06 AM
Justification is to be declared righteous (through and because of the merits of Jesus).  Jesus did not need justification because He was inherently righteous from the moment He was born.  To say that He needed justification is to imply some imperfection in His character, which cannot be.  Justification is needed only by a sinner--which Jesus was not.

Still waiting for your response to AA 560.  Do you believe it or not?

Perhaps I am not expresses my view with the correct words. You are right. Jesus as God did not need justification. We did. But HE needed it in order to give it to us. He had to be the spotless lamb. He had to live the victorious life .... or all would be loss for us. In fact ... at the cross He thought He had failed and the plan of redemption failed. So, by this you can see that He needed to be justified for us. He was a human. He lived the life of a human. His humanity needed to be perfect. He needed to be justified so that we could be saved. Jesus as man ... had to be justified by Faith in His Father, through the sinless life that He lived. To say that Jesus the man ... did not need to be justified by living the perfect life for us .... would seem to leave us with no Saviour.

With your belief .... people like Enoch would not have justification. And that would follow that any one of us who could somehow muscle up a perfect life ... we would not need justification. And thus you would have two catagories of the saved ... those who needed justification and those who were perfect and didn't need it. Personally ... I feel we all need it.

Jesus was Justified by perfect obedience to the Law so that we don't have to be justified by perfect obedience. We are justified through HIS keeping of the Law.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 09:52:53 AM
This could be easily misunderstood..... but in the ultimate sense Christ did not do it all. If ultimately He did it all then everyone on the planet is saved irrespective of how they respond or do not respond.

I'm not sure how one would come up with that. The Bible clearly does not teach this. He did it all for those who accept Him. It is the gift that needs to be reached out and taken. But now many in this world are reaching out to accept it? No. The Devil has them busy with the allures of life. They feel they are in need of nothing.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 31, 2008, 10:35:31 AM
HDIA, there is a basic problem in communication here. Your understanding of the words justification and sanctification is not the same as they are undertood and taught by Seventh-day Adventists and by most other Christians. Its hard to have  a discussion if you insist on your own private definitions that do not match everyone else's.

Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 11:02:46 AM
HDIA, there is a basic problem in communication here. Your understanding of the words justification and sanctification is not the same as they are undertood and taught by Seventh-day Adventists and by most other Christians. Its hard to have  a discussion if you insist on your own private definitions that do not match everyone else's.

I realize that some are just unable to rent themselves of old semantics. Not a problem. But it is good to expand ones mind and not get stuck in old thoughts due to semantics of labeling certain words. It is very restrictive.

Let me point out that just like Jesus needed to be sanctified when he was already sanctified ... so with justification. It as for US.

Quote
"Christ has said, "I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified." [John 17:19.] He wanted his disciples to be sanctified, and he made himself their example, that they might follow him."  CE 175
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on August 31, 2008, 11:45:30 AM
I'm not sure how one would come up with that. The Bible clearly does not teach this. He did it all for those who accept Him. It is the gift that needs to be reached out and taken. But now many in this world are reaching out to accept it? No. The Devil has them busy with the allures of life. They feel they are in need of nothing.

 It sure does and you said so yourself. Let me ask,.. are the underlined phrases that you said something we do? Does God do this irrespective of our choices ? Our part is the choosing. This too is a gift but we are also given the choice to reject the gift. While I do not think you believe this (hope not) your position ultimately leads to universal salvation or at the least.... presumption.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 31, 2008, 11:49:18 AM
I realize that some are just unable to rent themselves of old semantics. Not a problem. But it is good to expand ones mind and not get stuck in old thoughts due to semantics of labeling certain words. It is very restrictive.

Let me point out that just like Jesus needed to be sanctified when he was already sanctified ... so with justification. It as for US.

HDIA, changing the definition of theological terms is dangerous. It can lead to confusion and error. I have no idea what you mean by your last sentence.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 11:54:49 AM
It sure does and you said so yourself. Let me ask,.. are the underlined phrases that you said something we do? Does God do this irrespective of our choices ? Our part is the choosing. This too is a gift but we are also given the choice to reject the gift. While I do not think you believe this (hope not) your position ultimately leads to universal salvation or at the least.... presumption.

Not sure how you jump to that conclusion. However ... it is true that we are universally saved. ALL are saved if they want to accept the gift. Our saved status is a done deal by what Jesus did 2,000 years ago. Our only part is to accept the done deal.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 11:56:07 AM
HDIA, changing the definition of theological terms is dangerous. It can lead to confusion and error. I have no idea what you mean by your last sentence.

This is what I mean ...

"Christ has said, "I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified." [John 17:19.] He wanted his disciples to be sanctified, and he made himself their example, that they might follow him."  CE 175

And as your quote mentioned  .....  sanctification and justification are tied together.

And about "changing definitions" ... The definitions are not being changed. It is just that there are multifaceted aspects of the definitions. And the traditional facets of this neglect important truths. Once fully understood ... one is blessed. It is not new theology. It is neglected theology.

Quote
"May it not be that your ideas need changing?" GCB, April 25, 1901 par. 28 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on August 31, 2008, 11:59:56 AM
HDIA;

What is the point of trying to speak a language that no one understands? It is clear that you speak a language the prophet does not. Even if you were correct,and you are not, what is the point ? All this does is create confusion in an attempt to get others to agree. It is the meaning that is important. We can debate with homosexuals that the word "gay" does not mean homosexual but happy and cheerful but other than creating argument how is this helpful?

 Since you are struggling with one of Ellen White's defintions of the word "sanctification" call it whatever word makes you happy but the bottom line is that we must be changed and we will be changed if we are saved. When Jesus leaves the heavenly sanctuary all those who continue to commit sin will be filthy still and lost still. While we are to be sanctified now we must and will by necessity gain victory over sin...not some sin but all sin. This is more than Jesus atoning for sin but it is that we turn away from, yes, we stop sinning. I know this is a very unpopular doctrine among evangelical Christians both outside and inside of our church because it is a narrow road rather than a paved superhighway. To believe that God's people even through His power and grace are bound by the devil to continue sinning is to exalt the power of the devil above God. The ultimate statement that god will prove is that the law can be kept even by fallen man. Stan says that it cannot be kept. How we end up on this issue will reveal who we are following and who we believe to be correct. What many do not realize is that all those who claim it is impossible to stop sinning will be attempting to prove Satan's point. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 12:30:30 PM
Colporteur ... Let me address you question and concerns with the following quotes that I strongly believe in ...

Quote
Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Quote
"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. "  DA 357

Quote
"All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us." --DA, p 668

Quote
" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." TDG 318

Some may think that these might conflict. But I do not.

May I ask? Is there anything that our Prophet has said here that you disagree with? If not then I think we have come to terms and are in agreement.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 31, 2008, 12:52:39 PM
HDIA, is it your belief that everyone is legally saved until they have chosen to resist the saving grace of God?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on August 31, 2008, 01:09:38 PM
Colporteur ... Let me address you question and concerns with the following quotes that I strongly believe in ...

Some may think that these might conflict. But I do not.

May I ask? Is there anything that our Prophet has said here that you disagree with? If not then I think we have come to terms and are in agreement.

No, I have no problem with anything the Prophet has said. What I take issue with is when you select certain quotes omitting others and leaving out aspects of the quote following that would bring in context,clarifty and a complete picture. Incidently, you clashed with the Prophet over her use of the word "Sanctification." I will not argue with you about this much longer as it is fruitless. I think all that wish may see what you are proposing. The gospel you propose is not an end time gospel and all that believe it will ultimately excuse rejection of the Sabbath as just another sin that we are saved in.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on August 31, 2008, 01:10:42 PM
HDIA, is it your belief that everyone is legally saved until they have chosen to resist the saving grace of God?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 01:47:34 PM
Quote
HDIA, is it your belief that everyone is legally saved until they have chosen to resist the saving grace of God?

I answered this in depth. But it appears that it got lost in cyberspace. Oh well. I will summarize.

 Our saved status is a done deal. The provisions have been made. Christ died for all. That does not mean that ALL are saved. The legal aspects are there if we avail ourselves to them. Christ came to draw all men unto Him. If we don't resist Him ... we will be draw to Him.

The Bible is clear that we are saved if we accept the terms of our saved status. But this quote of yours' is utter nonsense to me. Who would believe something like that? God does not force our will. So to say that we can be saved without accepting Jesus as our Saviour ... just does not compute with me. If one was to believe your statement ... you could be in some state of limbo with ignorance and avoidance and be saved until you reject it. That is not what I read in my Bible.

I really don't know what you are getting at . It would be better if you would just come clean and say what you mean.

The saved status is there for all to take. But you do have to TAKE it ... You have to accept Christ before you can be saved.

No Limbo Belief here .....
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on August 31, 2008, 03:34:53 PM

 Our saved status is a done deal.

The saved status is there for all to take. But you do have to TAKE it ... You have to accept Christ before you can be saved.

This is once saved always saved. It is not a done deal until we either die faithful or Christ comes. A done deal means we cannot be lost. While we may have assurance of salvation we must remain connected to the vine and only have assunrance as long as we stay connected.

Is there tangible evidence when one accepts Christ?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on August 31, 2008, 03:38:01 PM
It is clear to me that this debate is becoming more confused and convoluted as time goes on.  Our friend HDIA is not willing to answer a direct question regarding a plain inspired statement in AA; rather he wishes to argue about nuances of language.  I see no further point in continuing this discussion under these conditions.  

With one exception, everyone who has posted on this subject seems to understand clearly what true sanctification is, as contrasted with justification.  And none of us have been able to help the one who seems confused about it.  What is left to do except to pray for this person?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 03:40:30 PM
Colporteur. You are free to nit pic my wording. There could be no end to that. I have stated what I believe. But if you prefer to put it in your words ... then why ask for my wording. No one enjoys to be treated like this. Fine. Have your wording. We are saying the same thing. But then you seem to know better how I think than I do.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on August 31, 2008, 04:08:13 PM
Colporteur. You are free to nit pic my wording. There could be no end to that. I have stated what you believe. But if you prefer to put it in your words ... then why ask for my wording. No one enjoys to be treated like this. Fine. Have your wording. We are saying the same thing. But then you seem to know better how I think than I do.

Let's not forget who took issue with Mrs. White's use of the word "sanctification."
As is so often the situation when conversing with folks like yourself this has degenerated down to Whos on first and What's on second.
Now you follow the pattern of nearly every liberal poster in claiming my feelings are hurt.  I believe you have made your views clear even though you back track and attempt to reverse them claiming to believe the same as those you are corresponding with. It is nice to agree but to pretend to when there is staunch disagreement is neither edifying nor educational.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 31, 2008, 04:22:42 PM
Colporteur. You are free to nit pic my wording. There could be no end to that. I have stated what you believe. But if you prefer to put it in your words ... then why ask for my wording. No one enjoys to be treated like this. Fine. Have your wording. We are saying the same thing. But then you seem to know better how I think than I do.
HDIA, you came on to this forum with a very assertive posting of statements about salvation that do not coincide with commonly held Adventist beliiefs.  I am having a great deal of trouble understanding exactly what you believe because you seem to reverse yourself and deny what you earlier clearly stated. Maybe I'm not understanding you very well.
Again, would you give some references of authors or teachers who believe and teach what you are trying to explain to us? I'm not trying to put you down. You have a perfect right to believe what you wish. Since you are posting on this forum, and this is an Adventist forum, I would like to understand it.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 04:32:41 PM
I've been a faithful Adventist for more than a half century.

I don't find any of my views as contrary to standard Adventist  beliefs.

What views do you feel are contrary to Adventist  beliefs.

I am a very conservative Adventist and have been all my life. So, I am surprised to hear this from you.

Please articulate and copy the views that you feel are not standard.  I have profusely quoted Ellen White and the Bible.
These are standard SDA authorities.
Which of these quotes do you personally disagree with.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: He Did It ALL on August 31, 2008, 04:40:51 PM
Quote
Let's not forget who took issue with Mrs. White's use of the word "sanctification."

We have established that there are two meanings of the word sanctification. From the very beginning ... I have affirmed that if we assume Ellen White is referring to the "growth" aspect of Sanctification ... then I agree with all she has said. I have clearly articulated the Sanctification/growth belief.

My point has consistantly been that we must not forget the "set apart to be used by God" aspect of sanctification. This aspect is sorely avoided on this forum. To me it is vital that we have this aspect NOW and that we not wait through some process to achieve it. This aspect of sanctification is NOT the work of a lifetime.

But then I have repeated this over and over ... and to this point ... it has not been received. SO, I am not very optimistic now.

And to Larry .... I do not see this view of two aspects of Sanctification as non-Standard to common SDA beliefs.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 31, 2008, 04:51:05 PM
HDIA, it is clear that it has not been productive in trying to dialog with you. This forum is not a place to engage in contentious debates and circular arguments that go nowhere. You seem to be to dislike answering direct questions and making it clear exactly what you believe. The longer it goes on the more confusing it sounds. There are other Adventist forums who welcome contentious debating. This is not one of them.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: BobRyan on November 27, 2008, 10:06:37 PM
Which is more important Justification or Santification? What is the danger when we consider these topics?

The danger is that we will forget that Sanctification is nothing more (and nothing less) than "daily justification". As Paul says in Colossians 2 "As you have received Christ Jesus so walk in Him". Here is why Christ says that we must "take up our cross daily and follow"

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: BobRyan on November 27, 2008, 10:14:20 PM
We have established that there are two meanings of the word sanctification. From the very beginning ... I have affirmed that if we assume Ellen White is referring to the "growth" aspect of Sanctification ... then I agree with all she has said. I have clearly articulated the Sanctification/growth belief.

My point has consistantly been that we must not forget the "set apart to be used by God" aspect of sanctification. This aspect is sorely avoided on this forum. To me it is vital that we have this aspect NOW and that we not wait through some process to achieve it. This aspect of sanctification is NOT the work of a lifetime.

But then I have repeated this over and over ... and to this point ... it has not been received. SO, I am not very optimistic now.

And to Larry .... I do not see this view of two aspects of Sanctification as non-Standard to common SDA beliefs.

When someone comes to Christ - they are at that moment justified -- set apart -- the new creation work is done in them and they are dedicated to God. But that does not mean they are going to be 'the same' 20 years later. In Romans 8 we are to "walk by the Spirit" we are day by day "putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

So while it is true that if you die the moment you are saved - the moment you are justified. You will be raised in the first resurrection - a saint fully accepted in the Beloved. It is also true that day by day you are called to "persevere in doing good" as we see in Rom 2:7. And it is also true that you are daily putting to death the sinful nature as you feed the "new creation" nature made in the image of Christ.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on November 28, 2008, 02:06:19 PM
We need to be rational. Some sins are easily identified and some are not. Do we ignor the easily indentifiyable ones?

I am not uncomfortable with Justification. I am uncomfortable with so much drawing away from and ignoring of sanctification.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: BobRyan on November 28, 2008, 02:17:56 PM
As I noted above - it is unclear that there is actually a difference between daily justification and "sanctification".

Col 2 "As you have recieved Christ Jesus - so WALK in Hiim".

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on November 28, 2008, 04:57:35 PM
As I noted above - it is unclear that there is actually a difference between daily justification and "sanctification".

Col 2 "As you have recieved Christ Jesus - so WALK in Hiim".

in Christ,

Bob

But without specific definition that can be made to mean almost anything.

What is it about the term "sanctification" that people do not like ? I wonder if it doesn't have more of a connotation of carrying a cross than the term justification.

I don't think the two words are equated with each other by most. A good definition of Justification is that God looks at us "just" as though we have not sinned.  Sanctification lends itself more to growth and to separating from sinful thoughts and deeds while serving God and man. While there are some similarities within both justification and sanctification there are differences. If they are accentually the same why did EGW use them independentally ?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: BobRyan on November 28, 2008, 07:17:38 PM
I think Sanctification is great! I think the concept of being "Set apart" is wonderful. I think that concept of "Christian growth" as we see in Heb 5 and in Peter's "ladder" is great.

My argument is that it is accomplished by the process of daily Justification "As you have received Christ so walk in him". This means there is no conflict between Sanctification and justification.

As Chemistry is simply "applied physics" where the architect doing the Application is "God" ---

As Biology is simply "applied chemistry" where the architect doing the application is - "God" -

so Sanctification is simply "applied Justification" - and the one who enables us to do it -- is "God".

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Jim on November 28, 2008, 07:20:49 PM
I think Sanctification is great! I think the concept of being "Set apart" is wonderful. I think that concept of "Christian growth" as we see in Heb 5 and in Peter's "ladder" is great.

Bob, is that all sanctification is to you... being "set apart"?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: BobRyan on November 28, 2008, 07:58:54 PM
Hi Jim -

Actually it is all three of the statements I made on it -- not just the first.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: colporteur on November 29, 2008, 11:44:09 AM
Hi Jim -

Actually it is all three of the statements I made on it -- not just the first.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob;

Will those tranlsated (saved) when Jesus comes be sanctified to the point of not sinning even by a single thought?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: BobRyan on November 29, 2008, 03:26:23 PM
Yes - otherwise what will they do since in Rev 15 the sanctuary service is ended just before the start of the 7 last plagues and in 1John 2:1 we are told "these things I write to you that you sin not - and if anyone sins we HAVE an ADVOCATE with the FAther".

in Paul's letter to Timothy Christ is the "one Mediator between God and man".

When that ministry ends - there can be no more "Advocate with the Father" work going on to address the case of "if anyone sins".

I thought we all agreed on this.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 02, 2008, 03:59:33 PM
I considered hebrews chapter 1, and looked up in a folio views search (EGW CD ROM ) -  sancti* implant* nature & got 13 hits.

The nature of the work of sanctifying intelligent thinking beings with a conscience and will, is different that sanctifying real estate or an item of clothing, ot tool.

Both are cleansed and as well- set apart for holy use, but the living thinking person must walk in unity with God; because God is a consuming fire to sin in His unvailed presence. 

Sanctification for a person = the work of justification (propitiation),  plus ,  sanctification (unity with God) - this spiritual state of unity requires the implanting of Christ's nature within to accomplish that + coupled with the cooperation and perseverence of the human being both justified and sanctified.

If the setting apart for holy use is all it would take then Christ dying on the cross was enough - and no more needed.   Scripture does not stop there.  Justification brings pardon and life, red heifer symbolized cleansing (propitiation ), power to come to Christ & become His Own. Sanctification is unbroken continued justification in it' s nature - it is the continuation of the process that requires the intelligent cheerful wholeharted cooperation of the human recipent with God.  This is where understanding the Bible's phrases of "Fear God", fear the Lord, and all such derivations - better explain sanctification - refereing to the process of unifying the human with God - comes into play.  Anyone in Scripture from any country could have been described as fearing God or not, but only the nation of the hebrews could say that God had denominated them as His organized nation of people with a name (lable).

If dying on Calvary was all - why these texts ?
Romans 4:25  Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1st Corinthians 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

if the process of salvation was complete when he died, why are we saved much more by His life.  (Think of His life within a person as relates to that person's salvation on a present tense view - as well as a past tense & future tense )

Christ IN YOU = the hope of glory.  Not just the label that you belong to Christ.  That's one reason for the investigative judgement, with Jesus being proud of someone and testifying for them, or ashamed and unable to vouch for them .

May I suggest looking up the phrase "not saved until" .

Justification gets YOU out of sin,  Sanctification gets SINFULNESS (carnal heart) out of you, and puts on "the new man".  They are part of the same process, a starting and a continuing unto spiritual completion - then sealing - just before Second Coming physical glorifying.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 02, 2008, 04:30:36 PM
Ed, that is an excellent post. Thank you for that. It's a keeper. Could you say a little more about the signiicance of the red heifer? If I understand correctly, it was the rarest and most valuable of the sacrificial animals.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: newbie on December 02, 2008, 06:17:00 PM
I agree Ed... nice post...  it goes along with ch. 14 of gospel of John. 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 06, 2008, 02:05:46 PM
So I kept it under the character limit length AND got to the point in an understandable way .    :-D

You realize if this gets out my reputaion is shot.

I will look to see if there is a topic or thread about the red heifer around here somewhere, if not I will start one.

Looking at the red heifer & brazen serpent probably ought to go together.

Is there a spell checker function that could be added - I need help  :roll:
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 06, 2008, 02:20:51 PM
ok started it under new topic in theology > Cross > Christ-Cross-Sanctuary-Symbols-Messianic Prophecy

will post research about red heifer there.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Robert Parker on January 23, 2010, 01:43:22 AM
It is interesting that we often disfellowship people who break the 7th commandment, but I've never known on anyone who was disfellowshipped for breaking the 10th.  I have a feeling that our list of sins (most offensive versus least offensive) would read somewhat differently that God's.  I say that because of the text that lists pride as the first in a list of 7 sins the Lord hates.  Prov. 6:16-19.

How can we dis-fellowship someone for coveting Raven? It does not always show up. I once had someone tell me that we should diis-fellowship someone who commits adultery for looking at a woman with lust. Can someone give me the recipe for knowing what a man is thinking?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Robert Parker on January 23, 2010, 02:03:58 AM
No.

I am sanctified ... or ..... set apart to be used by God. But, although I am set apart .... I do slip and become selfish.

I do fail.  But I am not sure that being "set apart" means that I will alway succeed. I don't know. We don't slip in and out of God's good graces like a yo-yo. I think that when we fail .... we are still in His good Graces and considered in the family of "set apart". And those set apart ask forgiveness when they become selfish and miss the mark.

Not sure if any of this makes sense to you?

Are you, then, perfect already? Being set apart (sanctified) is only the first step on the long road of sanctification. We are not fully sanctified in an instant (I believe that this was an old Methodist teaching against which Ellen White spoke), so that we just have to KEEP it. Sanctification will continue (if we are willing to receive it) through out our lives. Sanctification lasting a life time does not mean that it will necessarily take a life time to overcome sin: that will have to be accomplished before probation closes and we will be living without a Mediator. Overcoming sin, unlike sanctification, can happen in an instant and then maintained throughout our lives by continually walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh 9according to Romans 8.)

Robert
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Robert Parker on January 23, 2010, 02:11:57 AM
Bob;

Will those translated (saved) when Jesus comes be sanctified to the point of not sinning even by a single thought?

I couldn't resist answering this question to Bob. The answer is YES! Cp. But sanctification will continue on for eternity (even after we have ceased to sin) if I understand it right.

Robert
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Raven on January 23, 2010, 04:40:38 AM
How can we dis-fellowship someone for coveting Raven? It does not always show up. I once had someone tell me that we should diis-fellowship someone who commits adultery for looking at a woman with lust. Can someone give me the recipe for knowing what a man is thinking?

I wasn't suggesting that we disfellowship someone for coveting.  I was merely pointing out that we often look down our noses at those who commit the "grosser" sins, and ignore, for the most part, the weightier sins (at least in God's eyes), of pride, ego; and the attitude exhibited by the Pharisee who went up to the temple to pray.  Sabbath breaking was visited with the death penalty under the theocracy of Israel, but in this day and age we're not even sure what Sabbath breaking looks like anymore.  And I've never seen anyone disfellowshipped for that, either.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: GraceVessel on January 23, 2010, 06:02:40 AM
Robert,

I am not going to "measure  myself" on whether or not I can "be perfect" and experience Sanctification... its an inside looking out thing.. not outside looking in (measuring someone else's "STATUS") as a believer... Jesus knows those that are His.. and that includes ALL HIS CHILDREN... I consider myself a child of God and am in a continued walk to make my calling and election sure, and I have assurance that He (Jesus) will present me faultless before his throne... namely my goal is not sanctification... my goal is to keep my motivation, mind, and life behavior (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) - focused on the NT Sanctuary and my great High Priest that has provided ample gifts (grace) to be furnished unto good works... thats imputed AND imparted.

I'll trust in His merits.. not my own.

Best regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: God is Good on January 23, 2010, 10:59:51 AM
Yes. Whatever God needs to do for and in those that love Him ... He will do. I can sit back and rest in His promises to me ... a sinner saved by Grace.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: lotrob on January 26, 2010, 11:49:31 AM
I read this article this AM and thought I'd share an extract since I came on the forum and saw the recent comments .  .  .

May 19, 1898 Faith and Good Works.

    . . .            
     "He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me; and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him." This is the only true test of character. In doing the will of God we give the best evidence that we love God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. The oft-repeated words of love for God are of no value unless that love is made manifest in the life practise. Love for God is not a mere sentiment; it is a living, working power. {b}The man who does the will of his Father who is in heaven shows to the world that he loves God. The fruit of his love is seen in good works.  {ST, May 19, 1898 par. 5}  
     "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." This means more than an assent to the truth that Christ came into the world and died for the salvation of the race. The understanding may be convinced, but the text means more than this. It means entire sincerity. It means faith, intelligent faith, that will cling to the Saviour as the only hope of a fallen world. It means a faith that will grasp the wonderful provision made, and will engage the affections and control the life, resting upon the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour. It means a faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {ST, May 19, 1898 par. 6}  
    
 The apostle James saw that dangers would arise in presenting the subject of justification by faith, and he labored to show that genuine faith can not exist without corresponding works. The experience of Abraham is presented. "Seest thou," he says, "how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" Thus genuine faith does a genuine work in the believer. Faith and obedience bring a solid, valuable experience.  {ST, May 19, 1898 par. 7}  
    
There is a belief that is not a saving faith. The word declares that the devils believe and tremble. The so-called faith that does not work by love and purify the soul will not justify any man. "Ye see," says the apostle, "how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Abraham believed God. How do we know that he believed? His works testified to the character of his faith, and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness.  {ST, May 19, 1898 par. 8}  
    
 We need the faith of Abraham in our day, to lighten the darkness that gathers around us, shutting out the sweet sunlight of God's love, and dwarfing spiritual growth. Our faith should be prolific of good works; for faith without works is dead. Every duty performed, every sacrifice made in the name of Jesus, brings an exceeding great reward. In the very act of duty, God speaks and gives His blessing.  {ST, May 19, 1898 par. 9}  
    
"Being justified freely by His grace," the apostle Paul says, "through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness; that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."  {ST, May 19, 1898 par. 10}  
    
Here the truth is laid out in plain lines. This mercy and goodness is wholly undeserved. The grace of Christ is freely to justify the sinner without merit or claim on his part. Justification is a full, complete pardon of sin. The moment a sinner accepts Christ by faith, that moment he is pardoned. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to him, and he is no more to doubt God's forgiving grace.  {ST, May 19, 1898 par. 11}  
    
There is nothing in faith that makes it our saviour. Faith can not remove our guilt. Christ is the power of God unto salvation to all them that believe. The justification comes through the merits of Jesus Christ. He has paid the  price for the sinner's redemption. Yet it is only through faith in His blood that Jesus can justify the believer.  {ST, May 19, 1898 par. 12}  
    
The sinner can not depend upon his own good works as a means of justification. He must come to the point where he will renounce all his sin, and embrace one degree of light after another, as it shines upon his pathway. . . .  {/b}{ST, May 19, 1898 par. 13}    . . .     Mrs. E. G. White.   < there's more in the article but it exceeds 5000>
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: newbie on January 26, 2010, 12:09:06 PM
some believe that justification and sanctification happen at the same time at baptism...
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on January 26, 2010, 03:14:52 PM
some believe that justification and sanctification happen at the same time at baptism...
The Bible makes no mention of baptism of many who were forgiven by Jesus on the basis of their faith in Him. Was His forgiveness actually conditional?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: lotrob on January 27, 2010, 08:59:08 AM
some believe that justification and sanctification happen at the same time at baptism...

If it does, it must be in connection with baptism by fire!!  Consider all who have gone under the water and came up, left the building and never once turned from self or sin.  In fact, never even turned from either before baptism by water. 

 The sanctification set forth in the Sacred Scriptures has to do with the entire being--spirit, soul, and body. Here is the true idea of entire consecration. Paul prays that the church at Thessalonica may enjoy this great blessing. "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23).  {SL 7.1}
     There is in the religious world a theory of sanctification which is false in itself and dangerous in its influence. In many cases those who profess sanctification do not possess the genuine article. Their sanctification consists in talk and will worship. Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects. {SL 7.2} 
     When persons claim that they are sanctified, they give sufficient evidence that they are far from being holy. They fail to see their own weakness and destitution. They look upon themselves as reflecting the image of Christ, because they have no true knowledge of Him. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes.  {SL 8.1} 
     While with penitence and humble trust we meditate upon Jesus, whom our sins have pierced and our sorrows have burdened, we may learn to walk in His footsteps. By beholding Him we become changed into His divine likeness. And when this work is wrought in us, we shall claim no righteousness of our own, but shall exalt Jesus Christ, while we hang our helpless souls upon His merits."  {SL 8.2} "
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: newbie on January 27, 2010, 10:04:28 AM
lotrob..
great post thanks

Larry,
Most of the promises are conditional...
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Larry Lyons on January 27, 2010, 11:58:25 AM
lotrob..
great post thanks

Larry,
Most of the promises are conditional...
Perhaps, but when Jesus told the paralytic, "Son, thy sins be forgiven thee" he didn't add, "as soon as you go and get baptized."
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: newbie on January 27, 2010, 02:38:05 PM
Perhaps, but when Jesus told the paralytic, "Son, thy sins be forgiven thee" he didn't add, "as soon as you go and get baptized."

That is true and he did not confess all his sins before Jesus cured him either.... must be something in the 'eyes' or the 'look' of Jesus that makes the heart melt and confess all that he has done and is forgiven. 
And, when one is forgiven and healed the baptism was as if by fire from the divine.  And, Jesus never did one baptism....  it must not have been needed.  By His example, and that would apply to the thief on the cross too.

I wonder if those people realize how blessed they were to have Jesus right there before them?
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: God is Good on January 27, 2010, 10:37:25 PM
1 Cor. 6:11   "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Heb. 2:11   "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren"

Jeremiah 1:5   "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: ColporteurK on June 22, 2016, 04:59:07 AM

 I caught a little of Rick Warren while out driving the other day. Justification was rehearsed at length but not a single mention of sanctification. I guess this is to be expected by a mega church evangelical that is open to all religions. Then he went on to suggest that to truly be healed we need to confess our sins to another person. Their response should be " In the name of Jesus Christ you are forgiven." He said that confessing to Jesus alone is not enough. That sounds entirely Catholic to me. He tried to use Scripture " Confess you sins one to another" to support that.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: newbie on June 22, 2016, 03:38:16 PM

 I caught a little of Rick Warren while out driving the other day. Justification was rehearsed at length but not a single mention of sanctification. I guess this is to be expected by a mega church evangelical that is open to all religions. Then he went on to suggest that to truly be healed we need to confess our sins to another person. Their response should be " In the name of Jesus Christ you are forgiven." He said that confessing to Jesus alone is not enough. That sounds entirely Catholic to me. He tried to use Scripture " Confess you sins one to another" to support that.
He must be using NIV or another version of the bible.  The KJV says to confess your faults one to another.  There is a difference.

EGW says that our little secret sins do not need to be heard by curious minds.  Confess to God.
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: dedication on June 24, 2016, 11:50:47 PM
The title of this thread is very sad indeed.
It was discovering the topic of Justification, that launched the Reformation.
Adventists say they are a continuation of the reformation.
Why would they be "uncomfortable with justification"???

Without justification there is no salvation. 

"for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.  John 3:16
 "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:1,




I was a little perplexed over the tension in this thread -- concerning justification.

Upon what grounds is God just, in justifying sinners?
Indeed it is upon the grounds that the Creator Himself took upon Himself humanity, and lived the perfect life that no other human being has lived.
God's law demands absolute perfection of character, and this we don't have.  But Christ lived that perfect life as a human, depending, not on His own Divinity, but upon His Father in heaven.   Then He did more, He took our sins. bearing the guilt of the world, and died upon the cross.

It is by His blood that we are forgiven, and by His perfect life imputed to us, that we are justified.
This is a truth that causes angels to bow in adoration of God's love.   Shouldn't it cause us to be drawn to HIM in love and adoration?

And yes, immediately after Christ's resurrection, before He revealed Himself to the disciples, Jesus first ascended to heaven to receive God's "justification".
Quote
Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He had the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted by the Father. He ascended to the heavenly courts, and from God Himself heard the assurance that His atonement for the sins of men had been ample, that through His blood all might gain eternal life. The Father ratified the covenant made with Christ, that He would receive repentant and obedient men, and would love them even as He loves His Son. DA 790

Word meanings are important.
Justification, in many minds is equated with "forgiveness" only.
But justification in it's full sense means INNOCENT.

You see, Jesus, as a human being, needed to be justified BY THE LAW.
He needed to be declared INNOCENT, by the law.
 
How is one justified by the law? -- only by absolute perfect obedience to the law.
Adam and Eve's justification prior to their sin was a "justification by God's law"
they had no sin, they were in perfect harmony with God, INNOCENT.
As soon as they sinned, they were under the condemnation of the law, no longer in a justified state -- guilty.
 
When Jesus took on the liabilities of human flesh, there was no "grace" available for Jesus.   When He became a man He needed to earn His justification by absolute obedience.   One slip into sin, and His innocence would have been gone, and He would have stood condemned by the law, guilty,  no longer justified by the law.  All would have been lost.
But Jesus did not fail -- He lived, in human flesh, an absolutely perfect live, thus was justified by the law, and declared INNOCENT.

Christ was justified by the law, and in turn credits the repentant sinner with His INNOCENCE,
Romans 3:19   Now we know that whatever things the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may fully realize their guilt before God. 
 3:20   Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
3:23   For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 
 3:24   Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus  
 
Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: dedication on June 25, 2016, 12:05:59 AM
The life of sanctification springs from justification. 

The meaning of being "set apart" for holy living, which is part of the meaning of "sanctification" is very important.

Romans  6:6   Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin. 
 6:7   For he that is dead is freed from sin. 
 6:8   Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:   
 6:10   For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 
 6:11   Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
 6:12   Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 
 6:13   Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. 
 6:14   For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Scripture clearly shows that justification releases us from the grip of sin -- like a prisoner on death row, suddenly given a full pardon.  We change our citizenship from this world, to the heavenly city.  We count ourselves as Christ's sons and daughters, dead to sin and alive in Christ.  Set apart for Christ, to walk with Him in the paths of righteousness.

Sanctification -- a life work.    Not so much a "destination" at the end of our lives, but a continuous, daily walk with Christ in humble obedience every day of our lives.   

Title: Re: Uncomfortable with Justification?
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 02, 2016, 05:33:22 AM
Maybe the Bible/SOP concept of justification is unwelcome, if it is more pleasing to learn, join this church and you are delivered from the penalty no just go on sinning.

Sorta says who/what is loved instead of Jesus .    1888 still makes lots of professed SDA's in some circles mad.