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Title: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: A cruce salus on July 07, 2008, 07:20:17 PM
I was talking to a friend about gaining victory over sin in ones life, and as much as i have come to understand it someone please correct me here if i am wrong; are we to stop sinning before Christ comes, every evil thought, every bad habit, etc..... he did not see that this was possible. And a lot of the times i here the argument when i made a statement to someone about the problems i have in my life are not in line with Gods Will and Law this person and many others just say well....... we all have problems.

Brother and sisters excuse me if i sound mean but i have gotten tired of hearing that i believe when a person makes that statement he or she is making an excuse by looking at another person to justify sin or bad habits in there lives, and i feel It has come down to even amongst us Christians that we need to stop looking at one another and Look to Jesus who ( knew NO SIN!!!).
Will someone people here help me with a better understanding of victory over sin before Christ comes?
                                                                                                                                                  Thank You A Cruce Salus!!!                     
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: colporteur on July 07, 2008, 07:37:07 PM
I was talking to a friend about gaining victory over sin in ones life, and as much as i have come to understand it someone please correct me here if i am wrong; are we to stop sinning before Christ comes, every evil thought, every bad habit, etc..... he did not see that this was possible. And a lot of the times i here the argument when i made a statement to someone about the problems i have in my life are not in line with Gods Will and Law this person and many others just say well....... we all have problems.

Brother and sisters excuse me if i sound mean but i have gotten tired of hearing that i believe when a person makes that statement he or she is making an excuse by looking at another person to justify sin or bad habits in there lives, and i feel It has come down to even amongst us Christians that we need to stop looking at one another and Look to Jesus who ( knew NO SIN!!!).
Will someone people here help me with a better understanding of victory over sin before Christ comes?
                                                                                                                                                  Thank You A Cruce Salus!!!                     

I think I see it the same as yourself. I refuse to create my own theology in order to make room for sin in my life. I refuse to fantasize that Jesus died to save me in my sins. By a miracle of God I will overcome all and be saved. I'm not sure we know just exaclty how the judgemet will go with those who die before Christ steps out of the sanctuary in heaven and mediation for sin stops. While on one hand Luther had not overcome all sin but was growing when he died, on the other hand in the SOP there seems to be inidcation that those who cling to sin and die before all probation closes will be lost. I tend to believe that those who die while there is still mediation for sin may be judged by the trend of the life taking into account one's life experience and from where they came, theirattitude, and spiritual growth. 
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: newbie on July 07, 2008, 07:42:26 PM
Oh yes, I'm one that believes that we can have the victory now.  The bible says it....  in many ways and in many places.  Here is one example:

Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." to Mary M. and to the man at the pool of Bethesda. 

We have to empty of 'self' and be filled with the Spirit of Christ.  Easier said than done.  It is the hardest thing to do.  I've tried to give 2 examples on how to empty of self on this website in the thread entitled "a way of getting self out" and  I'm working on more that I will post at a later time.

http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=2435.msg49959#new

Here is a fantastic paragraph written by EGW:  I would hi-lite words that I thought really cool except I would be hi-liting everything!!  This lady was converted! 

Quote
I would not miss being present at these early morning meetings; for here I meet my Saviour, and am strengthened and refreshed.

Since I first took my seat in the cars to come on this journey East, I have enjoyed sweet peace in God.

My soul has feasted on the love of Christ.

While on the cars, I have been almost constantly sending up silent prayers to God, and my communion with him has been sweet.

As I have read the Holy Scriptures, the gems of truth have shone with such lustre, and the beauty and harmony of truth has so impressed me, that I could not forbear praising God.

At times, in contemplating heavenly things, my heart has been filled with a rapturous joy and love that is very precious, but that no words can describe.

I love Jesus, I love his law; I want to be like Jesus, that I may reflect his image perfectly. I want to lie low at the foot of the cross, that I may be nothing, and Christ may be all in all.

(RH, April 29, 1884,Article Title: Are We in the Faith?-By Mrs. E. G. White.-)
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: reaching4heaven on July 08, 2008, 06:54:04 AM
Yes, we must overcome all sin in our lives! I, too, am tired of hearing the opposite in church, so after recently reading Psalm 29:2 ("Give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name; worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness." ) I did a study on "beauty of holiness". I have not had time to get all the quotes neatly subtitled, and it is 29 or 30 pages long (a little larger font than normal), but if you want it I will send it to you...just PM me your e-mail address. The following quotes are some I pulled from the document that fit your question.

"The gospel of Christ has been dishonored by being handled with sin-stained hands." - Loma Linda Messages, p 102-3

"God can only be honored when we who profess to believe in Him are conformed to His image. We are to represent to the world the beauty of holiness, and we shall never enter the gates of the city of God until we perfect a Christlike character. If we, with trust in God, strive for sanctification, we shall receive it. Then as witnesses for Christ, we are to make known what the grace of God has wrought in us." -Sermons and Talks Vol 1, p 302

"Obedience to the precious word of God brings the beauty of holiness. That word, whether in the New Testament or in the Old, can not be changed to meet man in his fallen condition. It ever maintains its high and holy standard, saying, "This do, and thou shalt live." All human beings need a standard, and this standard is plainly revealed in God's word, which is the expression of his will. This word reveals to man his defects of character, and the hopelessness of his condition unless he returns to his loyalty. Through faith in Christ all excellence may be reached. The word of God requires obedience to his law, presenting the character of Christ in contrast to the character of men." - RH, 10/17/99

"As Christ's representatives, we are to bear to the world a far higher representation of what the beauty of holiness is. What is holiness?--It is wholeness to God. Our words, our actions, the manner of spirit manifested, is the outward and visible manifestation of what is within, and testifies as to whether we have on the robe of Christ's righteousness, woven in the loom of heaven, or are clothed with our own natural citizen's dress. We are to give evidence to the world in our outward acts as to what is the influence of the truth upon our hearts. The world observes our lives, hears our words, watches and measures our characters by these outward signs, and estimates the truth we profess to believe, according to that which we reveal as having been accomplished by it for us". - RH, 7/18/93

Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: Ruth on July 08, 2008, 07:26:45 AM
I really need to get out more, because here I was thinking that people in this neck of the woods were the only ones who formulated that argument, since Jamaicans are known - for the most part - to be rebellious by nature. :-)

In agreeing wholeheartedly with all that has been said before, I need to ask: If an individual says that it is not possible to obtain victory over sin now, isn't it the same as saying that Jesus is not able to keep us from sinning?  Since 1 Cor. 10:13 says that He even goes as far as to provide a way of escape from every temptation, wouldn't they really be saying that HIS Word cannot be trusted?

Sounds like a very dangerous position to take, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: colporteur on July 08, 2008, 07:57:12 AM
I really need to get out more, because here I was thinking that people in this neck of the woods were the only ones who formulated that argument, since Jamaicans are known - for the most part - to be rebellious by nature. :-)

In agreeing wholeheartedly with all that has been said before, I need to ask: If an individual says that it is not possible to obtain victory over sin now, isn't it the same as saying that Jesus is not able to keep us from sinning?  Since 1 Cor. 10:13 says that He even goes as far as to provide a way of escape from every temptation, wouldn't they really be saying that HIS Word cannot be trusted?

Sounds like a very dangerous position to take, doesn't it?

This may sound rough but it is calling Jesus a liar when we say He can not keep us from sinning. Then there is the part about proving it in our lives. The first step is to believe and profess it. The more difficult part is proving it personally. If we do not believe He can do it than it is highly unlikely that we will strive and conquer because we have lowered the bar.
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: El on July 08, 2008, 03:40:22 PM
Oh yes, I'm one that believes that we can have the victory now.  The bible says it....  in many ways and in many places.  Here is one example:

Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." to Mary M. and to the man at the pool of Bethesda. 

 

I too believe that Jesus can give us the victory over sin.--But I believe that we have to claim that victory every day.  Can each of us say that we have the victory over sin and that from henceforth we shall never sin again?  I believe that Jesus rescued Mary from her sins seven times, right? And I imagine that every time He told her to go and sin no more..     And do we believe that the man at the pool of Bethesda lived his life henceforth without sinning again?  Jesus asks us everyday to sin no more.  When can we be sure that we sin no more?

WHen I punished my children for wrong doing, I always said to them that they should go and never do it again.  But how many times did I have to say the same thing to them again?  As Paul said, " We die daily to sin.". Oh, wretched souls that we are!!!  Daily I ask Jesus to forgive my debts as I forgive my debtors.. 
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: El on July 08, 2008, 04:14:49 PM
. If we do not believe He can do it than it is highly unlikely that we will strive and conquer because we have lowered the bar.

Our lives should be lives lived to please God.  An Olympic Champion never quits trying.  Even when he thinks that he has reached his gold medal he continues to practice and play.  The same with our daily lives.  Letting down the bar is out of the question.  Striving towards perfection is a effort of a lifetime. 
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: A cruce salus on July 08, 2008, 04:54:08 PM
This is GREAT!!! glad i could get some serious input on this subject and a touchy one in Seventh Adventists circles it seems these days.
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: A cruce salus on July 08, 2008, 04:59:38 PM
Yes, we must overcome all sin in our lives! I, too, am tired of hearing the opposite in church, so after recently reading Psalm 29:2 ("Give unto the Lord the glory due unto his name; worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness." ) I did a study on "beauty of holiness". I have not had time to get all the quotes neatly subtitled, and it is 29 or 30 pages long (a little larger font than normal), but if you want it I will send it to you...just PM me your e-mail address. The following quotes are some I pulled from the document that fit your question.

"The gospel of Christ has been dishonored by being handled with sin-stained hands." - Loma Linda Messages, p 102-3

"God can only be honored when we who profess to believe in Him are conformed to His image. We are to represent to the world the beauty of holiness, and we shall never enter the gates of the city of God until we perfect a Christlike character. If we, with trust in God, strive for sanctification, we shall receive it. Then as witnesses for Christ, we are to make known what the grace of God has wrought in us." -Sermons and Talks Vol 1, p 302

"Obedience to the precious word of God brings the beauty of holiness. That word, whether in the New Testament or in the Old, can not be changed to meet man in his fallen condition. It ever maintains its high and holy standard, saying, "This do, and thou shalt live." All human beings need a standard, and this standard is plainly revealed in God's word, which is the expression of his will. This word reveals to man his defects of character, and the hopelessness of his condition unless he returns to his loyalty. Through faith in Christ all excellence may be reached. The word of God requires obedience to his law, presenting the character of Christ in contrast to the character of men." - RH, 10/17/99

"As Christ's representatives, we are to bear to the world a far higher representation of what the beauty of holiness is. What is holiness?--It is wholeness to God. Our words, our actions, the manner of spirit manifested, is the outward and visible manifestation of what is within, and testifies as to whether we have on the robe of Christ's righteousness, woven in the loom of heaven, or are clothed with our own natural citizen's dress. We are to give evidence to the world in our outward acts as to what is the influence of the truth upon our hearts. The world observes our lives, hears our words, watches and measures our characters by these outward signs, and estimates the truth we profess to believe, according to that which we reveal as having been accomplished by it for us". - RH, 7/18/93


My Email is M4a1hammer4@yahoo.com
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: reaching4heaven on July 13, 2008, 08:39:20 PM
Will someone ... here help me with a better understanding of victory over sin before Christ comes?


I read this in RH, Vol 3, page 26 yesterday. It is well written and sums up my thoughts on stopping to sin, so I thought I would share it in a condensed form even though it isn't "inspired".

No Good Reason For Being Discouraged
By E. Hilliard

Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on July 15, 2008, 12:48:47 PM
Perhaps this text my add some thought  Rom. 7:14-8:1

Sin is much more complicated (I think) then we often perceive. "Sin" is "self"  it is the "seed" of my existence.  It is not limited to "what I do."

When I (you) become a new creature "in Christ"...I take on Someone else's existence = "Christ's"  ...as I learn to "live His life" and leave "my existence"....God "separates me (you)" from sin...IE....  Rom 7:14-8:1

For our feeble minds, this is somewhat complicated..but.for God...it is His gift to us. 

I do not completely understand...perhaps it is a problem of "vocabulary"...the English language is unable to be completely explanatory...so it limits our understanding toward futher comprehension.  However,,,the Spirit defines to us in our souls, the confidence we can have in our Savior.



14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God's Blessings'
Deborah   :-)








 



Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: Lazarus on July 15, 2008, 01:16:44 PM
Quote from: Deborah
Perhaps this text my add some thought  Rom. 7:14-8:1

Sin is much more complicated (I think) then we often perceive. "Sin" is "self"  it is the "seed" of my existence.  It is not limited to "what I do."

When I (you) become a new creature "in Christ"...I take on Someone else's existence = "Christ's"  ...as I learn to "live His life" and leave "my existence"....God "separates me (you)" from sin...IE....  Rom 7:14-8:1

For our feeble minds, this is somewhat complicated..but.for God...it is His gift to us. 

Deborah, your comments remind me of this verse in Romans 8:9 where Paul says:

Quote
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This seems a pretty important aspect of Paul's understanding of salvation.  What did Paul mean by this?

How did one become "in the Spirit", to have the "Spirit of God dwell in you"?

In Acts 19:1-6 Luke depicts an event in which those whom Paul baptized were granted the Holy Ghost.

Quote
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: El on July 17, 2008, 12:29:30 AM
Deborah, your comments remind me of this verse in Romans 8:9 where Paul says:

This seems a pretty important aspect of Paul's understanding of salvation.  What did Paul mean by this?

How did one become "in the Spirit", to have the "Spirit of God dwell in you"?

In Acts 19:1-6 Luke depicts an event in which those whom Paul baptized were granted the Holy Ghost.

Did the Spirit of God come through baptism?  Is the Holy Ghost in Acts 19 synonymous with the Spirit of God in Romans 8?


But my question is,"What is sin?"  The breaking of the 10 commandments?  Is failing to show active and Christlike 'fruits of the Spirit" sin?  Is the omission of helping a neighbor in need sin?  Do we recognize exactly what sin is?  Is feeling frustration with the man who stalls me in traffic sin?  Can a human experience perfection when righteous anger is felt?  And can righteous anger ever be identified and justified?

 
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: Raven on July 17, 2008, 04:21:29 AM
But my question is,"What is sin?"  The breaking of the 10 commandments?  Is failing to show active and Christlike 'fruits of the Spirit" sin?  Is the omission of helping a neighbor in need sin?  Do we recognize exactly what sin is?  Is feeling frustration with the man who stalls me in traffic sin?  Can a human experience perfection when righteous anger is felt?  And can righteous anger ever be identified and justified?

 

We have one definition of sin:  "transgression of the law."  I John 3:4.  Some are sins we actually commit, while others are sins of ommision--according to Scripture.  James 4:17:   Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.   Also, whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  Rom. 14:23.  Jesus got angry on occasion.  Mark 3:5:  And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Our problem is that we are prone to become angry with the perpetrator of sin, rather than the sin itself.  That is human nature.  It can't be changed without the Holy Spirit.  But I think you probably know all this and I'm not sure I've helped much.
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: newbie on July 17, 2008, 06:28:35 AM
But my question is,"What is sin?"  The breaking of the 10 commandments?  Is failing to show active and Christlike 'fruits of the Spirit" sin?  Is the omission of helping a neighbor in need sin?  Do we recognize exactly what sin is?  Is feeling frustration with the man who stalls me in traffic sin?  Can a human experience perfection when righteous anger is felt?  And can righteous anger ever be identified and justified? 
Hi El,
I like what Raven said about us sometimes taking things out on the sinner rather than the sin.  We must be careful.
As for the Law, this is how I'd like to see it portrayed.  The Law is really a law of love.  And, that is why it cannot be changed and why Jesus had to pay the price for us.  We are to Love God with all our heart and soul (1-4), and love God's creation as ourselves (5-10).  If we do that, through the faith and love of Jesus, we will be free.  Then, we will show all the fruit without even trying as it will radiate from within.  We will not be able to contain the love that we have for Jesus and will do His will on this earth to glorify His name.
ARe we there yet?  No, but moving forward in grace and mercy!
newbie
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: El on July 17, 2008, 11:09:02 AM
Hi El,
I like what Raven said about us sometimes taking things out on the sinner rather than the sin.  We must be careful.
As for the Law, this is how I'd like to see it portrayed.  The Law is really a law of love.  And, that is why it cannot be changed and why Jesus had to pay the price for us.  We are to Love God with all our heart and soul (1-4), and love God's creation as ourselves (5-10).  If we do that, through the faith and love of Jesus, we will be free.  Then, we will show all the fruit without even trying as it will radiate from within.  We will not be able to contain the love that we have for Jesus and will do His will on this earth to glorify His name.
ARe we there yet?  No, but moving forward in grace and mercy!
newbie

But my question is when will we be there?  Time is short.  Everyone I talk to says that they are still not there yet. That they depend on grace and mercy.  I very well concur with that belief.  Have you ever met someone who thinks that they have reached that point?  Is that when we will truely be Christ-like?  Are there souls who live on this earth who have reached the place in their life where they will never fall and are past the point of sinning?  Do you understand what I am trying to say?  We all (me included) believe that we can be saved from our sin.  OK.  Now when will we have the assurance that we have reached that point.  Have you ever met a Christian who thinks that he no longer makes mistakes?  In other words, has any person living today moved to the point where they have reached perfection?  Is that not the goal of a true Christian?  Otherwise, being saved from sinning would be somewhat futile.  We can be saved, through the blood of Christ, by claiming forgiveness from our human mistakes--never believing that open sin is acceptable.  But will I ever come to the point, when I go to sleep at night, that I no longer believe that I have sins to be forgiven because I am saved from sin?  I know that I can not be saved in sin, but being saved from sin is forever ongoing.  If we can come to that point in our life, then we will have reached perfection.

I wonder, on the day of the death of Sr. White, if she had reached the perfection for which she longed, or was she still depending on Christ's blood to cover her unrecognized mistakes.   
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on July 17, 2008, 12:20:27 PM
El...perhaps an explanation would be better than a definition.  We can go through the scriptures as some have,,but perhaps something different....

"Sin" is an "illegal life form" created, embrace, perpatrated by Lucifer.  "Sin was "his" creation.

"Sin" then took on a life form of it's own and did what it does "instinctively"..."it" destroyed Lucifer and everything else in it's path.  When humans became infected with sin,,,,it did/does what it does,,,"destroys."

"Sin" is an "illegal life form" in Elohim's universe.  "It" was never suppose to exist...how do we explain a life form that was not suppose to exist??  With characteristics and only produce "sorrows."

  It is defined by it's characteristics,,,we all know what they are because we are all effected by them.  "It" is apposed "instinctively" to all that Elohim is,,,IE...purity, holiness, righteousness and all the "beauties" that are "the essence of GOD."

How do we "perfectly" define a "life form"  ...(.that has "no personality of its self "but" produces them)  that was never suppose to exist in the first place?? 

God says in the Bible "Behold the Lamb of God"  Jn 1:36   NOT "understand" but "behold."  Explanations may be all we can ask for sometimes.

"Sin" is a virus,,,it produces malformations of life.

Sometimes explanations come by comparing opposites...."light/dark...up/down...good/bad"...this "life form  "sin" will be destroyed along with satan, and death.  Praise God for that !!!

God Keep Us All
Deborah   :-)




Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: newbie on July 17, 2008, 01:50:39 PM
But my question is when will we be there?  Time is short.  Everyone I talk to says that they are still not there yet. That they depend on grace and mercy.  I very well concur with that belief.  Have you ever met someone who thinks that they have reached that point?  Is that when we will truely be Christ-like?  Are there souls who live on this earth who have reached the place in their life where they will never fall and are past the point of sinning?  Do you understand what I am trying to say?  We all (me included) believe that we can be saved from our sin.  OK.  Now when will we have the assurance that we have reached that point.  Have you ever met a Christian who thinks that he no longer makes mistakes?  In other words, has any person living today moved to the point where they have reached perfection?  Is that not the goal of a true Christian?  Otherwise, being saved from sinning would be somewhat futile.  We can be saved, through the blood of Christ, by claiming forgiveness from our human mistakes--never believing that open sin is acceptable.  But will I ever come to the point, when I go to sleep at night, that I no longer believe that I have sins to be forgiven because I am saved from sin?  I know that I can not be saved in sin, but being saved from sin is forever ongoing.  If we can come to that point in our life, then we will have reached perfection.

I wonder, on the day of the death of Sr. White, if she had reached the perfection for which she longed, or was she still depending on Christ's blood to cover her unrecognized mistakes.   

Hi El,
All I can suggest is that you try the things I have put on this forum under "getting self out"  I have posted on that thread several things to actually DO to make ours a closer walk with Jesus.  I have tried all of these things and to know that they DO work if done daily.  I have one more installment that I will post in late August as I"m not quite done with trying it out.  These are all tried and true.  :)

here is the link to this spot on the forum:



http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php?topic=2435.0


Please let me know if you have questions or if you would like examples of what I've done.  :)
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: Raven on July 17, 2008, 01:51:38 PM
But my question is when will we be there?  Time is short.  Everyone I talk to says that they are still not there yet. That they depend on grace and mercy.  I very well concur with that belief.  Have you ever met someone who thinks that they have reached that point?  Is that when we will truely be Christ-like?  Are there souls who live on this earth who have reached the place in their life where they will never fall and are past the point of sinning?  Do you understand what I am trying to say?  We all (me included) believe that we can be saved from our sin.  OK.  Now when will we have the assurance that we have reached that point.  Have you ever met a Christian who thinks that he no longer makes mistakes?  In other words, has any person living today moved to the point where they have reached perfection?  Is that not the goal of a true Christian?  Otherwise, being saved from sinning would be somewhat futile.  We can be saved, through the blood of Christ, by claiming forgiveness from our human mistakes--never believing that open sin is acceptable.  But will I ever come to the point, when I go to sleep at night, that I no longer believe that I have sins to be forgiven because I am saved from sin?  I know that I can not be saved in sin, but being saved from sin is forever ongoing.  If we can come to that point in our life, then we will have reached perfection.

I wonder, on the day of the death of Sr. White, if she had reached the perfection for which she longed, or was she still depending on Christ's blood to cover her unrecognized mistakes.   

Somewhere the the book, Steps to Christ there is a statement to the effect that the closer we come to Jesus the more sinful we will appear in our own eyes.  In GC we are told that those who go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble will look back on their lives and see very little that was good.  So, I'm not sure that at any time we will be able to say that we have arrived (until our feet leave the ground as we ascend to "meet the Lord in the air").  Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.  We can not do more than live up to all the light we have been shown.  One could take the position that the thief on the cross had not progressed as far in his sanctification process as the apostle Paul had (Paul, who referred to himself as the "chief of sinners"), but both had surrendered to Jesus so that the work of sanctification was going forward and upward.  I bellieve that if we think we have arrived we are on dangerous ground, the ground of self sufficiency and spiritual pride.  Paul said, Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  Phil. 3:12-14.

I hope I've helped some and not muddied the waters.
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: El on July 17, 2008, 03:31:19 PM
Somewhere the the book, Steps to Christ there is a statement to the effect that the closer we come to Jesus the more sinful we will appear in our own eyes.  In GC we are told that those who go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble will look back on their lives and see very little that was good.  So, I'm not sure that at any time we will be able to say that we have arrived (until our feet leave the ground as we ascend to "meet the Lord in the air").  Sanctification is the work of a lifetime.  We can not do more than live up to all the light we have been shown.  One could take the position that the thief on the cross had not progressed as far in his sanctification process as the apostle Paul had (Paul, who referred to himself as the "chief of sinners"), but both had surrendered to Jesus so that the work of sanctification was going forward and upward.  I bellieve that if we think we have arrived we are on dangerous ground, the ground of self sufficiency and spiritual pride.  Paul said, Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.  Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  Phil. 3:12-14.I hope I've helped some and not muddied the waters.
  Thankyou, Raven--you have not muddied the waters.  You have given me thoughts to ponder.  I have had the feeling while reading these posts that I was  one of the few who has not found the road to perfection.  And it scares me..  It is true---the closer I feel that I have come to Jesus the farther away I feel from reaching perfection.  WHen I pray I am convicted more of the mistakes that I make.  And I ask God for forgiveness and then I feel that I have so many more changes to make in my life just to live the fruits of the Holy Spirit.  Am I kind enough?  Am I meek enough?  And yet with all these things in mind we still need to be strong and stand for principal and truth.  Surely the commandments of Leviticus are important.  But I feel that it is just the beginning of a life led for Jesus.  If I die daily to sin, then maybe the day will come when I will have to die no more.
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on July 17, 2008, 05:39:19 PM
Don't know if this will help or not..this is from the Biblical Research Institute

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/How%20Perfect%20Is%20Perfect.htm



Biblical Perfection

    One of the hindrances to living the Christian life successfully is failure to understand what the Bible teaches on the nature of sin and perfection. A grave misapprehension lies at the root of much of the false teaching on this subject. The Bible, in applying the term "perfection" to believers, never means "sinlessness." There are at least nine different Hebrew words and six Greek words translated "perfection." Noah is said to be "perfect in his generations" (Gen 6:9). Of Asa, the King of Judah, we read: "But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the Lord all his days" (1 Kings 15:14). "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2). "We speak wisdom among them that are the perfect" (1 Cor 2:6).

    The Bible writers are not saying that these men are sinless. The meaning is that of spiritual maturity, full grown spiritually, ripe in spiritual understanding, whole in response to god, keeping nothing back. A "perfect" Christian is one whose heart and mind are permanently committed to Christ, cannot be moved. Noah, Abraham, and Job were all declared to be "perfect" men. Yet the history of their lives shows that they were far from being sinless.

    If one's view of sin is shallow enough, sinless perfection would not be an impossible achievement. It is a defective view of sin that leads to a wrong understanding of perfection. If sin simply means a deliberate, willful doing of what is known to be wrong, then no Christian should commit this kind of sin. But if sin includes also a man's state of mind and heart, man's bias toward sin, sin as an indwelling tendency, then perfection presents a totally different picture.

What God Expects of His People
    There are some Christians who believe that it is possible in this life to reach a point in spiritual development, where the sinful nature is completely eradicated and therefore, no longer operative. The Bible does teach that the genuine Christian life is one of uniform and sustained victory over all known sin. The normal Christian experience should be one of victory and not constant defeat.

    Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Rom 6:11-15)

God's Blessings'
Deborah  :-)

   

Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: V. Hahn on July 17, 2008, 07:44:47 PM
Dear El,

You are definitely not alone.  I certainly struggle, too.  We need to die daily and let Christ live in us!

Dennis Priebe has a good sermon called, "What is Sin?"

It can be found here... http://www.audioverse.org/displayrecording/160/DennisPriebe-WhatIsSin

It might help!

Vicki
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: Larry Lyons on July 17, 2008, 10:23:09 PM
The English word "perfection" carrys with it the idea of ultimate perfection that is without a flaw of any kind. That idea comes to us from the Greek philosophers. It was not the Hebrew mindset of the Bible writers. Even the Greek words that are translated in the New Testament do not carry the connotation of absolute perfection. When we look at the context of nearly every word in the Bible translated as "perfect" it was speaking of someones relationship with God or the way they treated others.

J.R.Zurcher in his wonderful little book "What Inspiration Has to Say About Christian Perfection."deals with the subject very nicely by examining the lives of the Bible characters who were called perfect, and examining Ellen White's statements on the topic.

This is from the first chapter:
   "God's deeds are perfect because they are the outworking of His justice, His faithfulness, His uprightness, and His goodness. His ways are likewise perfect because they seek the good of all those who trust in Him. His law is also perfect because it is a law of love--a "law that gives freedom" (James 1:25) and is designed for human restoration. Perfect as well is His knowledge of all things, for it contains all wisdom and knowledge.

   "To understand that God's perfection refers to His merciful relationships with His creation already constitutes an initial clarification of the biblical meaning of the concept of perfection. This relationship is the perfect expression of God's character, and it is in this particular sense that Jesus exhorted Christians to "be perfect...as you heavenly father is perfect." (Matt. 5:48) It is important to emphasize this point, because as we will discover in the following pages, human perfection dwells not within human nature, but in the substance of our relationship with God and with our neighbor." (Zurcher, J.R. pp 24,25)
Title: Re: Victory over sin before Christ comes? Is it possible?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on July 18, 2008, 04:57:25 AM
Amen...that is "grace."

God's Blessings'
Deborah  :-)