Revival Sermons

Theology => The Holy Spirit => Topic started by: newbie on July 02, 2008, 08:30:10 AM

Title: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on July 02, 2008, 08:30:10 AM
The glory departed from Christ while he was on the desert but he still had the HS of God with him. 

When Christ was in the garden and sin was being placed on him was the HS of God withdrawn from him?  And, on the cross, was the HS of God withdrawn from him in the darkest hour?

Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Lazarus on July 02, 2008, 08:42:43 AM
What is the difference between the glory of God and the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit?

Is the glory of God something Christ in his divinity in heaven inherently possessed, while the Holy Spirit was a separate expression of the Godhead?

Can you describe the differences?
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on July 02, 2008, 08:56:15 AM
What is the difference between the glory of God and the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit?

Is the glory of God something Christ in his divinity in heaven inherently possessed, while the Holy Spirit was a separate expression of the Godhead?

Can you describe the differences?
Laz,
All I can say is what I have read from SOP.  When Christ was baptized the Father spoke and the dove landed on Jesus and light shone on the face of Jesus.  Then when Jesus was to be tempted in the desert by Satan, SOP says that the glory departed...  I think this means that the physical presence of the Father was gone.... all the light and glow etc.  But Jesus still had the HS of God with him and in his mind to do battle with Satan.  At least, this is how I understand it at this time.

Was this also the case at the cross and in the garden?  Or did something different happen when sin was placed on Him?
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: wondering on July 02, 2008, 11:41:00 AM
Laz,
All I can say is what I have read from SOP.  When Christ was baptized the Father spoke and the dove landed on Jesus and light shone on the face of Jesus.  Then when Jesus was to be tempted in the desert by Satan, SOP says that the glory departed...  I think this means that the physical presence of the Father was gone.... all the light and glow etc.  But Jesus still had the HS of God with him and in his mind to do battle with Satan.  At least, this is how I understand it at this time.

Was this also the case at the cross and in the garden?  Or did something different happen when sin was placed on Him?

As I read it, the sins of the world were already placed upon him way before the garden, in fact before he was tempted in the wilderness. The experience in the Garden was the beginning of his separation from the Father.

Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness (1877), page 14, paragraph 3
Quote
The great work of redemption could be carried out only by the Redeemer taking the place of fallen Adam. With the sins of the world laid upon him, he would go over the ground where Adam stumbled. He would bear a test infinitely more severe than that which Adam failed to endure. He would overcome on man's account, and conquer the tempter, that, through his obedience, his purity of character and steadfast integrity, his righteousness might be imputed to man, that, through his name, man might overcome the foe on his own account.

Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness (1877), page 30, paragraph 3
Quote
When Adam was assailed by the tempter in Eden, he was without the taint of sin. He stood before God in the strength of perfect manhood. All the organs and faculties of his being were equally developed, and harmoniously balanced.

And finally, Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness (1877), page 34, paragraph 3
Quote
Christ had entered the world as Satan's destroyer, and the Redeemer of the captives bound by his power. He would leave an example in his own victorious life for man to follow, and thus overcome the temptations of Satan. As soon as Christ entered the wilderness of temptation, his visage changed. The glory and splendor which were reflected from the throne of God and his countenance, when the heavens opened before him, and the Father's voice acknowledged him as his Son in whom he was well pleased, were now gone. The weight of the sins of the world was pressing his soul, and his countenance expressed unutterable sorrow, a depth of anguish that fallen man had never realized. He felt the overwhelming tide of woe that deluged the world. He realized the strength of indulged appetite and unholy passion, which controlled the world, and had brought upon man inexpressible suffering. The indulgence of appetite had been increasing and strengthening with every successive generation since Adam's transgression, until the race was so feeble in moral power that they could not overcome in their own strength. Christ, in behalf of the race, was to overcome appetite, by standing the most powerful test upon this point. He was to
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on July 02, 2008, 12:48:42 PM
What is the difference between the glory of God and the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit?

Is the glory of God something Christ in his divinity in heaven inherently possessed, while the Holy Spirit was a separate expression of the Godhead?

Can you describe the differences?
Lazarus, I understand the glory of God to be His brilliant, radiant splendor.  When we read of glory in the Bible and SoP it is something visible (that is like a consuming fire.) But this radiance is more, it is His beautiful, holy character and it is His glory that commands adoration, worship and honor.  When Moses upon the mount asked if he could see the the glory of the Lord the Lord said, "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.  And He said,thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live....It shall come to pass that while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by.  And I will take away my hand and thou shalt see my back parts, but my face shall not be seen." (Ex 33) Perhaps the face of the Lord is where most of His glory is seen?

Jesus, as fully God, possesses His own glory from eternal ages.  We read in the GC that when the redeemed will be glorified it is the Holy Spirit that makes their faces glow. 
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on July 02, 2008, 01:13:43 PM
As I read it, the sins of the world were already placed upon him way before the garden, in fact before he was tempted in the wilderness. The experience in the Garden was the beginning of his separation from the Father.

Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness (1877), page 14, paragraph 3
Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness (1877), page 30, paragraph 3
And finally, Redemption; or the Temptation of Christ in The Wilderness (1877), page 34, paragraph 3

wondering,
Those are great quotes.  But I believe that in the wilderness Christ still had the HS of God with Him through those trials.  The physical visible presence of the Father was gone.  Is the desert experience the same as in the garden and on the cross?
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: lily-of-the-field on July 04, 2008, 01:29:52 PM
You've really captured my interest with this topic, Newbie!  I've been combing my way through the SoP and am still putting the pieces together.  Still working on what the glory of God is.  Certainly, the glory that the incarnate Jesus appears to be His Father's presence, but on other occasions, this visible light that on occasions illuminated Jesus is identified as the Spirit.  I discovered something I had not noticed before in DA...after Gethsemane, when the mob sought Him,..."the angel who had lately ministered to Jesus moved between Him and the mob.  A divine light illuminated the Saviour's face, and a dovelike form overshadowed Him.  In the presence of this divine glory, the murderous throng could not stand for a moment.....The angel withdrew, and the light faded away."  So here we have again after Jesus' suffering in Gethsemane, the same dovelike form that was called the Spirit at His baptism.

I'm not entirely sure that Jesus had the HS in the wilderness or in Gethsemane - but am open to being corrected.  The Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness.  DA says that when He entered the wilderness He was shut in by the Father's glory...But the glory departed and He was left to battle with temptation.  What I am seeing, Newbie and Lazarus, is that the Father's presence and the Spirit's presence go together, are separate entities but inseparable, can't have one without the other.  And this divine presence of Father and the Holy Spirit together with Jesus constitutes the visible, illuminating glory that descended upon and enshrouded Jesus when the heavens were opened.   So if the Father's presence departs, so too the Holy Spirit.

Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on July 04, 2008, 01:34:33 PM
Interesting what you have found Lily.  I'm pretty sure that Jesus still had the HS of God with him in the wilderness but the visible physical presence (Glory), was not with Him. 

I'm confused however, about in the garden and at the cross.  I'm not sure on those.  Please keep searching and reading and if it takes another 6 months to find out, I'm there!  Thanks for looking into this.  I think it is important for understanding just what Jesus went through.  .. 
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Richard Holbrook on July 10, 2009, 10:17:49 PM
Christ defeated Satan the same way we are to defeat Satan. Through the power of the Holy Spirit. Had he used his own power even once, we would all be lost. And just like us, he got this power through prayer and fasting, and communion with the Holy Spirit.

For forty days He fasted and prayed. Weak and emaciated from hunger, worn and haggard with mental agony,...  Now was Satan's opportunity. Now he supposed that he could overcome Christ. {DA 118.1}

If Christ's confidence in God could be shaken, Satan knew that the victory in the whole controversy would be his. He could overcome Jesus. He hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in His Father, and work a miracle in His own behalf. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken. {DA 119.1}

So we know he had to have the spirit in the wilderness, as already stated by Newbie, but I'm still not sure about the cross though.
I hope you don't mind my jumping in. This topic is a good one to study.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on July 11, 2009, 11:37:05 AM
Thanks for making this active again...

as I said earlier, Jesus had the HS with Him in the wilderness

after an extensive study, I've decided that the HS was withdrawn from him beginning in the Garden and then remained separate from Him on the cross.  I have a ton of documentation for this but don't want to make long posts...

I'll see if I can find the specific search words so that you can go to the EGW site and access this info.  plus there is indication in bible scripture as well.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Richard Holbrook on July 11, 2009, 02:30:23 PM
Newbie,
I know you are a good researcher, and I would enjoy looking at this evidence. And I don't think anyone will mind how long your post is.
Post! Post!
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on July 11, 2009, 03:07:33 PM
I'll look up the key search words to reveal the bulk of information studied.   8-)

I believe that this information was the most helpful of all that I read.  Put in the search words or doc. on the EGW site.

Number Seventeen  Testimony for the Church
Chapter 29 - The Sufferings of Christ
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on August 11, 2009, 11:35:30 AM
I am wondering...would it be a misconseption to say...until one committs the unpardonable sin...is he/she completely without the Holy Spirit?

God Keep Us All
Deborah
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Richard Holbrook on August 11, 2009, 11:39:40 AM
If you commit the unpardonable sin, the Holy Spirit will leave you alone and you will no longer care about spiritual things. Until then the HS is trying to help you.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Larry Lyons on August 11, 2009, 02:50:12 PM
I agree Richard. The Holy Spirit has been here since creation, but after Calvary, when Christ was enthroned in Heaven as the rightful ruler of earth on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came in full measure. He did not leave after Pentecost. Our challenge as followers of Christ is to eliminate from our lives anything that diminishes our receptivity to the Holy Spirit's work in our lives.

It is worth while to study the weather patterns of Palestine, on which is based our concept of the early and latter rain. There was one rainy season, not two. The rain that came early in the season caused the grain to germinate and grow. The rain that came late in the season brought the grain to maturity and readied it for the harvrest. And there was enough rain off and on throughout the season to nourish the plants through their growing period.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Tammy on August 11, 2009, 03:58:33 PM
Our challenge as followers of Christ is to eliminate from our lives anything that diminishes our receptivity to the Holy Spirit's work in our lives.

Great thought!  Very thought provoking.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on August 11, 2009, 06:11:57 PM
I need prayer....God is so good...I need the Holy Spirit to impower me.  I have so many weaknesses.

God Keep Us All
Deborah  :-(
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Richard Holbrook on August 11, 2009, 06:15:07 PM
I will pray for you.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on August 12, 2009, 06:59:33 AM
THANK YOU................
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Robert Parker on September 03, 2009, 09:28:42 PM
You've really captured my interest with this topic, Newbie!  I've been combing my way through the SoP and am still putting the pieces together.  Still working on what the glory of God is.  Certainly, the glory that the incarnate Jesus appears to be His Father's presence, but on other occasions, this visible light that on occasions illuminated Jesus is identified as the Spirit.  I discovered something I had not noticed before in DA...after Gethsemane, when the mob sought Him,..."the angel who had lately ministered to Jesus moved between Him and the mob.  A divine light illuminated the Saviour's face, and a dovelike form overshadowed Him.  In the presence of this divine glory, the murderous throng could not stand for a moment.....The angel withdrew, and the light faded away."  So here we have again after Jesus' suffering in Gethsemane, the same dovelike form that was called the Spirit at His baptism.

I'm not entirely sure that Jesus had the HS in the wilderness or in Gethsemane - but am open to being corrected.  The Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness.  DA says that when He entered the wilderness He was shut in by the Father's glory...But the glory departed and He was left to battle with temptation.  What I am seeing, Newbie and Lazarus, is that the Father's presence and the Spirit's presence go together, are separate entities but inseparable, can't have one without the other.  And this divine presence of Father and the Holy Spirit together with Jesus constitutes the visible, illuminating glory that descended upon and enshrouded Jesus when the heavens were opened.   So if the Father's presence departs, so too the Holy Spirit.


How could Jesus have successfully battled against sin in the wilderness without the aid of the Holy Spirit? He said that He could do nothing of Himself. We are told in the SOP that we will have the Holy Spirit with us during the Time of Trouble (which is our Gethsemane).
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Larry Lyons on September 03, 2009, 10:19:45 PM
How could Jesus have successfully battled against sin in the wilderness without the aid of the Holy Spirit? He said that He could do nothing of Himself. We are told in the SOP that we will have the Holy Spirit with us during the Time of Trouble (which is our Gethsemane).
Excellent point Robert.  And welcome to the forum!! I look forward to your continued participation.

Larry
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on September 04, 2009, 10:38:56 AM
How could Jesus have successfully battled against sin in the wilderness without the aid of the Holy Spirit? He said that He could do nothing of Himself. We are told in the SOP that we will have the Holy Spirit with us during the Time of Trouble (which is our Gethsemane).

robertparker,
The HS was with Jesus when he was in the wilderness.  And, the righteous saints will always have the HS with them. 
But, the HS was withdrawn at the cross or it is very likely that Jesus would not have died.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Deborah Risinger on September 07, 2009, 09:21:59 AM
It seems (to me)...in looking a various references...God does not say "He left Jesus alone" in the wilderness...nor does God say "He did not leave Christ alone" in the wilderness after "leading Him there."

Am I incorrect in assuming, perhaps too much speculation on our part could cause us some problems?  It seems to me...... "faith"....... will be the key no matter what our personal conclusion will be....

We do know...Jeus was imtimately close to His Father for strength....What the Father did for Jesus, He "will do" for us.

Only Hope
[THIS
ARTICLE APPEARED IN THE SIGNS OF
THE TIMES, AUG. 2, 1905.]
(I modified somewhat to limit how much to post....not "context...only content."  The references are posted.
 
    Meeting Temptation

     When Jesus was led into the wilderness to be tempted, He was led by the Spirit of God. He did not invite temptation. He went to the wilderness to be alone, to contemplate His mission and work. By fasting and prayer He was to brace Himself for the bloodstained path He was to travel. How should He begin His work of freeing the captives held in torment by the destroyer? During His long fast, the whole plan of His work as man's deliverer was laid out before Him. {1SM 227.2}

     When Jesus entered the wilderness He was shut in by the Father's glory. Absorbed in communion with God, He was lifted above human weakness. But the glory departed, and He was left to battle with temptation. It was pressing upon Him every moment. His human nature shrank from the conflict that awaited Him. For forty days He fasted
                                                                            228
and prayed. Weak and emaciated from hunger, worn and haggard with mental agony, "his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men" (Isa. 52:14). Now was Satan's opportunity. Now he supposed that he could overcome Christ. {1SM 227.3}

     There came to the Saviour, as if in answer to His prayers, one in the guise of an angel of light, and this was the message that he bore: "If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread" (Matt. 4:3). {1SM 228.1}

     Jesus met Satan with the words, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matt. 4:4). In every temptation the weapon of His warfare was the Word of God. Satan demanded of Christ a miracle as a sign of His divinity. But that which is greater than all miracles, a firm reliance upon a "Thus saith the Lord" was a sign that could not be controverted. So long as Christ held to this position, the tempter could gain no advantage. {1SM 228.2}

     A familiarity with the Word of God is our only hope. Those who diligently search the Scriptures will not accept Satan's delusions as the truth of God. No one need be overcome by the speculations presented by the enemy of God and of Christ. (my personal note to what Mrs. White says here as IMPORTANT) We are not to speculate regarding points upon which the Word of God is silent. All that is necessary for our salvation is given in the Word of God. Day by day we are to make the Bible the man of our counsel. {1SM 228.3}

God Keep Us All
Deborah  :-)

***Welcome  Robert  :-)

 

 
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on September 07, 2009, 03:54:55 PM
Good Quotes Deborah.... notice how one quote said, 'the Glory departed'  but does not say the HS departed. 
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Greg Goodchild on September 11, 2009, 08:28:40 AM
The glory departed from Christ while he was on the desert but he still had the HS of God with him. 

When Christ was in the garden and sin was being placed on him was the HS of God withdrawn from him?  And, on the cross, was the HS of God withdrawn from him in the darkest hour?



The Holy Spirit was always with Jesus and He will always be with us even when Christ's intercessory activities will cease.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on September 11, 2009, 09:46:33 AM
The Holy Spirit was always with Jesus and He will always be with us even when Christ's intercessory activities will cease.
Yes, the HS was with Christ always, except at the cross.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Greg Goodchild on September 11, 2009, 03:28:39 PM
Can you show me how that the Holy Spirit was not with Jesus at the Cross? If He was not where did Jesus get the strength to continue to be faithful to His Father?
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on September 11, 2009, 04:19:21 PM
Can you show me how that the Holy Spirit was not with Jesus at the Cross? If He was not where did Jesus get the strength to continue to be faithful to His Father?

read this whole chapter carefully and prayerfully:

Number Seventeen  Testimony for the Church
Chapter 29 - The Sufferings of Christ
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Greg Goodchild on September 12, 2009, 11:26:50 PM
I read the chapter and I found the Father seperated from Jesus but could not find the info on the Holy Spirit. Could you help me find it?
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on September 13, 2009, 11:43:09 AM
I read the chapter and I found the Father seperated from Jesus but could not find the info on the Holy Spirit. Could you help me find it?

It does not come right and say it the way we would want it expressed.... but if you read carefully the bulk of the statements point to this...  If Jesus is separated from the Father ...........    Jesus feared that he would be separated forever from the Father.....  (Satan's temptation)........    His extreme agony and the tears of blood in the Garden when the Father begins to separate from Jesus because the sins of the whole world are being laid upon Him.  The Father will not have anything to do with sin and will never forgive sin.... He will forgive sinners through Jesus only due to the cross.

Here is another point to ponder....   if the HS was still with Jesus could He have died?

Another point....  only Jesus Himself could have endured the cross due to His own perfect character...
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on February 04, 2010, 12:30:44 PM
robertparker,
The HS was with Jesus when he was in the wilderness.  And, the righteous saints will always have the HS with them.  
But, the HS was withdrawn at the cross or it is very likely that Jesus would not have died.

With further study/reading, this is not apparently truth.  Sorry....


The Story of Jesus ch. 8 The Temptation:  "As Christ left the Jordan, His face was lighted with the glory of God.  But after He entered the wilderness, this glory disappeared.
The sins of the world were upon Him, and His face showed such sorrow and anguish as man had never felt.  He was suffering for sinners."

(this bolded statement is the same statement that we read of Jesus on the cross)

Christ Tempted As We Are from  The Bible Students Library p. 4  "Alone He was to tread the path of temptation and exercise self-control stronger than hunger, ambition, or death."

Bible text:

Isa. 63: 3": I have trodden the winepress alone;




God Bless anyone that is still studying this subject.

Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Robert Parker on February 06, 2010, 11:01:54 PM
It does not come right and say it the way we would want it expressed.... but if you read carefully the bulk of the statements point to this...  If Jesus is separated from the Father ...........    Jesus feared that he would be separated forever from the Father.....  (Satan's temptation)........    His extreme agony and the tears of blood in the Garden when the Father begins to separate from Jesus because the sins of the whole world are being laid upon Him.  The Father will not have anything to do with sin and will never forgive sin.... He will forgive sinners through Jesus only due to the cross.

Here is another point to ponder....   if the HS was still with Jesus could He have died?

Another point....  only Jesus Himself could have endured the cross due to His own perfect character...

I think you are right Newbie! If Jesus was separated from God and went through the experiences associated with the second death, how could the HS be with Him?
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on February 07, 2010, 11:40:38 AM
I think you are right Newbie! If Jesus was separated from God and went through the experiences associated with the second death, how could the HS be with Him?

Amen Robert... nice to see you back.!!   :-D
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Robert Parker on February 09, 2010, 02:00:10 AM
With further study/reading, this is not apparently truth.  Sorry....
[/i][/i]

[Robert]
Don't be sorry Newbie! Thank you for making me take another look at this. Further study in the Desire of Ages seems to indicate that the HS was withdrawn from Jesus in the Wilderness, in Gethsemane and on the cross. It was the previous experience of having the HS with Him that sustained Him in these terrible trials.
Does that mean we will not have the HS with us during the Time of Trouble without a Mediator?
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: V. Hahn on February 09, 2010, 12:29:50 PM
All I know is that Jesus said He "would be with us alway, even unto the end of the world."  That's enough for me!

Vicki
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on February 09, 2010, 05:03:47 PM
With further study/reading, this is not apparently truth.  Sorry....



Don't be sorry Newbie! Thank you for making me take another look at this. Further study in the Desire of Ages seems to indicate that the HS was withdrawn from Jesus in the Wilderness, in Gethsemane and on the cross. It was the previous experience of having the HS with Him that sustained Him in these terrible trials.
Does that mean we will not have the HS with us during the Time of Trouble without a Mediator?

I was a bit confused by the quotes and did not see the question until Vicki answered....  Yes, I agree with Vicki that WE will not be without the HS all through....  Our prayers will go directly to the throne of God.  It only works because we will be without sin at that point in time.  Yes, wonderful to think that...
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Robert Parker on February 09, 2010, 10:17:09 PM
All I know is that Jesus said He "would be with us alway, even unto the end of the world."  That's enough for me!

Vicki

That's enough for all of us to know Vicki! If He weren't we should surely perish in the Time of Trouble. I think angels will be present with us but I do think, like Jesus, we will often FEEL as though God has forsaken us.

Robert
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: maskeenel on March 12, 2010, 05:48:22 AM
If that is the conclusion of all, that Jesus was without HS when tempted then where is the example that He was tried  and tempted like us and yet without sin.  Are we concluding by accepting the scenario, if Jesus can do without the help of the HS and without the guidance of His Father in the time of trial, then we can do it also.  Basically I think that the conclusion of the matter is this, that we don't need any one but the power within us.
I don't buy this but I can do anything without the help of Christ who strengthen me.  Our big brother always drew His strength from the Father.  When the glory departed, I don't think that has anything to do with the Spirit but it has to do with the majestic power which repels evil and consumes all forms of evil.I believe that when the glory departed He was naked without the glory which protected Him.

It is like a General who doesnt have his uniform the sign of his power.  Jesus was without his uniform when he faced the Satan in the wilderness.  My father use to tell us that a pig can fight with the lion in the darkness of the night without any fear but when the day breaks the pig sees the majesty of the lion and becomes heartless. At that time the pig is consumed.  Yes when you are shrouded in darkness and there is no light your might and strength is invisible to the attacker.  But the fact remains the lion always know, he is a lion and an animal of strength and majestic powers but to the attacker everyone looks alike in the darkness of night.  The powers of Jesus were with Him and He never used them.  Yes the glory depart but the fact remains that he got his strength from the Holy Spirit which guided, taught and reminded Him at the time of temptation as to how he should conduct Himself.  Our Savior was a good  student and He encourages us to be good student also by studying the word.  "I will not leave you nor forsake you even in the time of trouble.  In person He may not be there but in His Spirit he is always there.  He only encourages us while the sun shines spend time studying the word so that the Spirit can remind you what to say and when to say in time of need. Basically Jesus knew the word which he learned at the feet of His mother.  He heavily relied on it and was reminded of the arsenal which He had in His quiver.

Let us not conclude that His example is that we should not rely on the Spirit but on ourselves.  God forbid.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on March 12, 2010, 10:26:25 AM
This is misunderstood by many.... we cannot do it of ourselves... we will always have the HS with us.  ....  because of what Jesus did.... 

Recently this was clear from SOP that Jesus was fully aware of what He must do in the desert and on the cross... He must, as God, go over the ground where Adam had failed and do so to win the victory without supernatural help. 

We cannot do this without supernatural help....

Hope this is clear
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Robert Parker on March 12, 2010, 10:47:46 PM


Sounds right to me maskeenel. Page 123 of DA plainly says that Jesus was fitted for the conflict in the Wilderness by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Just for interest, page 123 reminds me of the Trinity. We are fitted for all of our battles with Satan by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---123.

Robert

If that is the conclusion of all, that Jesus was without HS when tempted then where is the example that He was tried  and tempted like us and yet without sin.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Robert Parker on March 12, 2010, 11:01:51 PM
Christ defeated Satan the same way we are to defeat Satan. Through the power of the Holy Spirit. Had he used his own power even once, we would all be lost. And just like us, he got this power through prayer and fasting, and communion with the Holy Spirit.

For forty days He fasted and prayed. Weak and emaciated from hunger, worn and haggard with mental agony,...  Now was Satan's opportunity. Now he supposed that he could overcome Christ. {DA 118.1}

If Christ's confidence in God could be shaken, Satan knew that the victory in the whole controversy would be his. He could overcome Jesus. He hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in His Father, and work a miracle in His own behalf. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken. {DA 119.1}

So we know he had to have the spirit in the wilderness, as already stated by Newbie, but I'm still not sure about the cross though.
I hope you don't mind my jumping in. This topic is a good one to study.

This is only delayed by about 18 months Richard, but it is such a good study. I think that the final temptation of Jesus was to come down from the Cross. Perhaps it was through the Holy Spirit that He resisted that temptation. However, I believe that the HS would have left Jesus when all the sins of the world for all time were placed on Him. The Holy Spirit will not dwell in the presence of sin. If the HP were with Jesus at this time He would not have tasted the Second death experience. Jesus BECAME SIN for us and that is in REALITY and not just in imagination. If Jesus became sin for us the Holy Spirit would nave been nowhere near Him.

Robert
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Robert Parker on March 12, 2010, 11:07:46 PM
I am wondering...would it be a misconseption to say...until one committs the unpardonable sin...is he/she completely without the Holy Spirit?

I think you are right Deborah! When all the sins of the world were placed on Jesus, He was reckoned to have committed the unpardonable sin of having rejected the Holy Spirit. This is an unfathomable mystery to us.

Robert
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Alpendave on September 11, 2011, 12:26:20 AM
Sorry if someone alread brought up this point. I didn't have time to see if someone already made it. So here goes anywar:

Leviticus 5:11
But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

No oil (symbolic of the Holy Spirit) in the sin offering would seem to suggest that as the true sin offering, Jesus on the cross would have been separated from the Holy Spirit
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: newbie on September 11, 2011, 10:02:53 AM
Sorry if someone alread brought up this point. I didn't have time to see if someone already made it. So here goes anywar:

Leviticus 5:11
But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour as a sin offering. He shall put no oil on it, nor shall he put frankincense on it, for it is a sin offering.

No oil (symbolic of the Holy Spirit) in the sin offering would seem to suggest that as the true sin offering, Jesus on the cross would have been separated from the Holy Spirit

What a great find.  Symbolically, this makes sense.  Jesus tread the wine press alone.
Title: Re: Did Christ always have the Holy Spirit with Him?
Post by: Alpendave on September 11, 2011, 03:26:38 PM
Another aspect of this I heard from Morris Lewis was the symbolic meaning of the word Gethsemane. It means oil press. A stone was placed over the olive and used as a fulcrum for a beam that was then weighted at one end. The crushing weight on the fulcrum would press the oil out of the olives, symbolic of how the crushing weight of our sins pressed the Spirit out of Christ.