Revival Sermons

Theology => The Holy Spirit => Topic started by: Richard OFfill on June 21, 2008, 03:25:09 PM

Title: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Richard OFfill on June 21, 2008, 03:25:09 PM
This Board poses the question as to how can we know we have the Holy Spirit. If someone were to ask you that question how would you respond? We often say that we were 'impressed'. How can we know who impressed us?
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Raven on June 21, 2008, 05:18:14 PM
If our "impressions" are in harmony with Scripture, we can have confidence that it comes form the Holy Spirit, rather than another spirit.

I'm not sure how all encompassing the question was, but outside the spiritual realm (jobs, relationships, other important decisions that aren't necessarily "theological" in nature), following the Spirit's lead sometimes involves moving forward through a series of open or closed doors, always praying that our decisions will be according to God's will.  But, I assume that this is common knowledge among SDA's (do I assume too much?), and so I wonder if your question was trying to probe deeper than I have gone.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: newbie on June 21, 2008, 06:39:51 PM
I agree with Raven .... if it is about serving lost souls and helping us to walk humbly in Christ then it is of God.  An idea/thought comes into the mind that is guidance and not generated by my own mind.  Often times, for me, it is scripture and then I search to find where this is in the bible and read the full context of what I am supposed to learn.  Often the 'impressions' come when I least expect them and just in the nick of time!

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on November 27, 2008, 10:04:58 PM
There is a post on this board "Ellen White vs the Thought Police" where I reference that section in Great Controversy where Ellen White speaks about the various Millerite Methodists and Baptists being forced out of their churches - because their "right to be heard" was not being afforded them during "social meetings" at church.

She attributes this to a rejection of the Holy Spirit on the part of the Christian churches. However if you stop to think about it - EVEN the Millerites would later AGREE with their opponants that they were flawed in arguing for a "certain fixed time" for the Lord to come in contrast to the Bible teaching that "no man knows the day nor the hour".

What we often lightly pass over in that history - is in fact "the hard question". How could you possibly have been listening to the Holy Spirit back then -- going against what you thought the Bible to be teaching when it came to "knowing the day" yes - the very day of the Lord's appearing? I fear that we are feeding our own people on little more than pablum when it comes to wrestling with the hard questions - and we are not prepared to face a close and cutting test -- many would fail even as the non-Millerite sentiment was the prevailing sentiment of the Christian church in the 1840's.

I fear the "canned answer thinking" that is so common in certain areas of our camp.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on November 28, 2008, 02:01:46 PM

She attributes this to a rejection of the Holy Spirit on the part of the Christian churches. However if you stop to think about it - EVEN the Millerites would later AGREE with their opponants that they were flawed in arguing for a "certain fixed time" for the Lord to come in contrast to the Bible teaching that "no man knows the day nor the hour".

I fear the "canned answer thinking" that is so common in certain areas of our camp.

in Christ,

Bob

Once again you are driving at something but unwilling to disclose it. The mistake of the Millerites was God directed for His providence. He had His hand over this so His people could not see the truth.

What uncanned answers do you have but will not disclose?
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on November 28, 2008, 03:01:07 PM
Once again you are driving at something but unwilling to disclose it. The mistake of the Millerites was God directed for His providence. He had His hand over this so His people could not see the truth.

What uncanned answers do you have but will not disclose?

I think you are a bit too tied to the idea of a witch hunt.

The idea speaks for itself. It already challenges thought and encourages us to avoid the less thoughtful avenues where the pablum of canned answers is all that we will entertain.

A professor from the Theology dept of Andrews was heard to comment recently that the seminary students are coming in with less and less real knowledge of the bible and less and less real ability to engage in innovative producte independant thought - able to solve Bible problems and actually make progress. They are more more what Paul calls "infants" in Heb 5 as the generations go by. It is hard not to see this as the innevitable result of light weight canned-answer contexts in Bible class and Sabbath school.

I visited a Jehovah's Witness church meeting once and I have to say that the canned-answer format was truly mind numbing. That kind of "conform conform conform" environment does not prepare students to love the Bible or have the ability to engage in productive critical thinking that seeks to know more truth. Recital alone is a poor substitute for the Holy Spirit.

In 1John 2 John argues "you have no need for anyone to teach you.. His annointing teaches you".

The more our people limit themselves to the pablum of conformity the less prepared they are to rightly divide the word of truth when faced with tough questions.

I have seen way too many SDAs fail and flounder in non-SDA contexts -- totally unprepared for the depth of review and the serious challenge from fellow Christians.

It does no honor at all to Christ to simply remain as infants in our thinking and ability to understand the Bible.

Computer scientists dream of the day that a machine might ever be capable of "independant thought". Yet often we find certain groups of Christians that seem to have no value for it at all.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Larry Lyons on November 28, 2008, 03:20:33 PM
Bob, is there a point you are trying to make here? Why not tell us what specifically you are trying to get at. You keep referring to the Millerites and Ellen White and but people keep telling you that you are being vague. 
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: wondering on November 28, 2008, 03:46:00 PM
There is a post on this board "Ellen White vs the Thought Police" where I reference that section in Great Controversy where Ellen White speaks about the various Millerite Methodists and Baptists being forced out of their churches - because their "right to be heard" was not being afforded them during "social meetings" at church.

Bob,

On the other thread, I asked you for the reference to this quote, in bold type above, you keep attributing to EGW. Could you also post that quote here for reference.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Arnie on November 28, 2008, 04:33:50 PM
A professor from the Theology dept of Andrews was heard to comment recently that the seminary students are coming in with less and less real knowledge of the bible and less and less real ability to engage in innovative producte independant thought - able to solve Bible problems and actually make progress. They are more more what Paul calls "infants" in Heb 5 as the generations go by. It is hard not to see this as the innevitable result of light weight canned-answer contexts in Bible class and Sabbath school.

Sure, many seminary students are coming into the seminary like that. Yet, many are not.

Andrews seminary has some huge problems themselves with many things they teach and promote that are following in the paths of Babylon. These errors are coming from those who are teachers and leadership. Their independent thinking apart from the simple teachings of the Word of God and the SOP has earned them the slogan, "There is nothing new under the sun." Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. 18 And now what hast thou to do in the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Sihor? or what hast thou to do in the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river?

Many who are leaders and teachers are no better than the Pharisees of old, but who are living today. "The blind, lead the blind."
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on November 28, 2008, 04:53:17 PM
I think you are a bit too tied to the idea of a witch hunt.


Yes, I think it is a "which" hunt and a "what" hunt. "What" are you really trying to get at and "which" way are you heading. :-D

When you make application to our church why not give some examples ?
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on November 28, 2008, 07:24:04 PM
Bob,

On the other thread, I asked you for the reference to this quote, in bold type above, you keep attributing to EGW. Could you also post that quote here for reference.

Sure -- here it is ...

Quote
But as ministers and religious leaders decided against the advent doctrine and desired to suppress all agitation of the subject, they not only opposed it from the pulpit, but denied their members the privilege of attending preaching upon the second advent, or even of speaking of their hope in the social meetings of the church. Thus the believers found themselves in a position of great trial and perplexity. They loved their churches and were loath to separate from them; but as they saw the testimony of God's word suppressed and their right to investigate the prophecies denied  they felt that loyalty to God forbade them to submit. Those who sought to shut out the testimony of God's word they could not regard as constituting the church of Christ, "the pillar and ground of the truth." Hence they felt themselves justified in separating from their former connection. In the summer of 1844 about fifty thousand withdrew from the churches. {GC 376.1}

Notice that "in context" the phrase "their hope" does not refer to 'their hope in Christ as a Christian" (the general concept for justification and salavtion) -- THAT was welcomed.

It was also not "Their hope that some day Christ would return" that too was a gnerally agreed upon point.

Rather it was specifically the Millerite HOPE that Christ would come again in a Premill fashion in 1843 and then again the hope revived for 1844. Very specifically a "hope" that directly contradicted the post-mill and a-mill views of those denominations.

(context is everything)

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on November 28, 2008, 07:33:55 PM
Yes, I think it is a "which" hunt and a "what" hunt. "What" are you really trying to get at and "which" way are you heading. :-D

When you make application to our church why not give some examples ?

See reply #5 where I reference the fact that about a half dozen SDA posters were deleted from one well known Baptist discussion board simply because they could not respond to topics in a sola-scriptura fashion that was original work (their own thoughts) rather than a transparent "cut-and-paste" from SDA web sources "doing their speaking for them".

People are not wanting to know about the tons of paper out there - they want to know what you think as a Christian -- yes even as an Adventist Christian. They want to know if the Holy Spirit has lead you to a solid Bible based conclusion they want to know if you can respond to their specific well-thought out -- often well informed questions.

In John 14 Jesus said "I am the way the TRUTH and the Life" and in 2Thess 2 we are told of people who "perish because they did not receive a love of the TrUTH".

In John 16 it is the "Spirit of TRUTH" that is sent as the comforter. And yet how many of our people show that they have spent very very little time thinking through the key doctrines of the church IN the "Word" guided personnally by the Holy Spirit!

We need people who can stand on their own feet - who as John says in 1John 2 "need for no one to teach them for HIS ANNOINTING teaches you".

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: wondering on November 29, 2008, 04:53:12 AM
Sure -- here it is ...

Notice that "in context" the phrase "their hope" does not refer to 'their hope in Christ as a Christian" (the general concept for justification and salavtion) -- THAT was welcomed.

It was also not "Their hope that some day Christ would return" that too was a gnerally agreed upon point.

Rather it was specifically the Millerite HOPE that Christ would come again in a Premill fashion in 1843 and then again the hope revived for 1844. Very specifically a "hope" that directly contradicted the post-mill and a-mill views of those denominations.

(context is everything)

in Christ,

Bob

You are right, Bob. Context is very important. Unfortunately, you still have not produced the quote you keep referencing. "Their right to be heard" is not in the passage yo keep listing, yet you've put it in quotation marks and attributed it to EGW. "Their right to be heard" is your wording and interpretation on the passage.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on November 29, 2008, 03:50:22 PM
Indeed -- the quote I gave in Reply #10 above provides the point I have been making repeatedly.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on November 29, 2008, 03:58:36 PM
This Board poses the question as to how can we know we have the Holy Spirit. If someone were to ask you that question how would you respond? We often say that we were 'impressed'. How can we know who impressed us?

There is a post on this board "Ellen White vs the Thought Police" where I reference that section in Great Controversy where Ellen White speaks about the various Millerite Methodists and Baptists being forced out of their churches - because their "right to be heard" was not being afforded them during "social meetings" at church.

She attributes this to a rejection of the Holy Spirit on the part of the Christian churches. However if you stop to think about it - EVEN the Millerites would later AGREE with their opponants that they were flawed in arguing for a "certain fixed time" for the Lord to come in contrast to the Bible teaching that "no man knows the day nor the hour".

What we often lightly pass over in that history - is in fact "the hard question". How could you possibly have been listening to the Holy Spirit back then -- going against what you thought the Bible to be teaching when it came to "knowing the day" yes - the very day of the Lord's appearing? I fear that we are feeding our own people on little more than pablum when it comes to wrestling with the hard questions - and we are not prepared to face a close and cutting test -- many would fail even as the non-Millerite sentiment was the prevailing sentiment of the Christian church in the 1840's.

I fear the "canned answer thinking" that is so common in certain areas of our camp.



The point is that if they are to be accused of "rejecting the Holy Spirit" for not letting their own Millerite members speak up - how would we fair by comparison?

On an individual basis - again addressing the OP - in John 14 Christ promises the Holy Spirit to those who follow Him - and He says that he gives "peace... not as the world gives". In Gal 5 we see that this is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

in Romans 8 we are told that the very essence of "Assurance of salvation" is centered in the fact that "The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God".

Many are willing to "replace that experience" with something that is more like "right-er than you must mean saved-er than you".

And as we all know -- nothing of the kind is anwhere near the truth of the Romans 2 argument of Paul that even Bible-less gentiles are accounted as saints while the Bible-informed members will  risk being viewed by God has "pagan".

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Raven on November 29, 2008, 06:23:47 PM

in Romans 8 we are told that the very essence of "Assurance of salvation" is centered in the fact that "The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God".


in Christ,

Bob

What is your understanding of the "assurance of salvation?"
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on December 01, 2008, 06:20:03 PM
What is your understanding of the "assurance of salvation?"

It is something you have to experience for yourself and is described in Rom 8:16 "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God".

It is interesting that Ellen White claimed that Moses Hull had this affirming assurance event take place in his life.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 01, 2008, 07:38:13 PM
It is something you have to experience for yourself and is described in Rom 8:16 "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God".

It is interesting that Ellen White claimed that Moses Hull had this affirming assurance event take place in his life.

in Christ,

Bob
Bob, There are two things I will say to that. No.1 is that when you say she "claimed" that implies that you do not believe her and that she was mistaken. We will not allow EGW to be attacked either blatantly or subtly.  No. 2,  I have not read that she said that about Hull, but it should be a dire warning to all, as to the dangers of the influence of satanic agencies. Regardless of how smart and clever and spiritual we may be, it we willingly fill our minds with satanic material and if we associate with and support those who spread it we are placing ourselves on Satan's ground and we may never escape. Moses Hull is an example of that.  As far as we know, he never returned to God.

For any who may not know the story of Moses Hull, he was a Seventh-day Adventist evangelist in Ellen White's day. It was an era in which entertainment often consisted of public lectures and debates, and it was an era when spiritualism in the form of seances, and contacting "dead relatives" and others became popular. Moses Hull decided to engage in a public debate with some spiritualists. He was certain he could prove them wrong. He apparantly had a high opinion of his ability. He had  been successful as a preacher and evangelist. Ellen White warned him not to debate with the spiritualists. She told him that he would not be dealing with "flesh and blood," and that he would lose the debate. He lost the debate and within weeks he had rejected the Adventist church and joined the spiritualists.

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Jim on December 01, 2008, 07:55:56 PM
It is something you have to experience for yourself and is described in Rom 8:16 "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God".

It is interesting that Ellen White claimed that Moses Hull had this affirming assurance event take place in his life.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, do you ever answer questions directly? Why not just clearly state what you believe and why, along with Biblical support? Instead of nebulous answers like.... "you have to experience it."
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Arnie on December 01, 2008, 07:56:56 PM
Moses Hull decided to engage in a public debate with some spiritualists. He was certain he could prove them wrong. He apparantly had a high opinion of his ability.

Very good point there Larry. No one can trust in their own abilities. And a problem also begins when one chooses to constantly argue and debate Scriptures to prove their points all the time. There is a time to speak and a time to keep quiet. Let God lead and open the way for opportunities. When sharing the truth from the Word of God with others, we so much need the in-dwelling power of the Holy Spirit to work in us and through us. And also pray that the Holy Spirit prepares the receivers heart to receive what we are going to say. Too many times we as humans try to do the work of the Holy Spirit.

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on December 01, 2008, 10:19:03 PM
Bob, There are two things I will say to that. No.1 is that when you say she "claimed" that implies that you do not believe her and that she was mistaken. We will not allow EGW to be attacked

I find a pattern of accusation-first and evidence-second creeping up time after time. What is up?

By taking the Christian model of accepting what is said in good faith -- I think a lot of this surmising would simply evaporate.

I am in favor of Ellen White's statement - and have said nothing at all against it. To imagine a statement that appeals to her position on this as "an attack" seems to lean heavily in the direction of accuse-first. I would hate to think that anyone on this board does such a thing.

Quote
either blatantly or subtly.

I don't know the history of this board and who has visited - possibly this level of distrust and accusation is justified if only I knew what drives you to do it. In any case - I recommend just accepting the posts until you actually find a doctrinal statement that can be shown to be in error - not simply surmised to be error.

Quote
  No. 2,  I have not read that she said that about Hull, but it should be a dire warning to all, as to the dangers of the influence of satanic agencies. Regardless of how smart and clever and spiritual we may be, it we willingly fill our minds with satanic material and if we associate with and support those who spread it we are placing ourselves on Satan's ground and we may never escape. Moses Hull is an example of that.  As far as we know, he never returned to God.

Indeed. As Adventists - as Arminians we do not believe in OSAS. Her testimony regarding Hull is important because it shows that while we may have that interactive event of assurance (as I already clearly stated regarding Rom 8:16) at one time--  and then at some later time -- lose it.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on December 01, 2008, 10:23:07 PM
Bob, do you ever answer questions directly? Why not just clearly state what you believe and why, along with Biblical support? Instead of nebulous answers like.... "you have to experience it."

If my point about Rom 8:16 is in anyway unclear -- go ahead and ask an actual question about the text or the doctrinal position. I am more than happy to answer.

Given that rule for candor - I would ask you a question, what in the world do you find 'nebulous' about Romans 8:16 and the topic of assurance of salvation???

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 01, 2008, 11:45:17 PM
I find a pattern of accusation-first and evidence-second creeping up time after time. What is up?

By taking the Christian model of accepting what is said in good faith -- I think a lot of this surmising would simply evaporate.

I am in favor of Ellen White's statement - and have said nothing at all against it. To imagine a statement that appeals to her position on this as "an attack" seems to lean heavily in the direction of accuse-first. I would hate to think that anyone on this board does such a thing.

I don't know the history of this board and who has visited - possibly this level of distrust and accusation is justified if only I knew what drives you to do it. In any case - I recommend just accepting the posts until you actually find a doctrinal statement that can be shown to be in error - not simply surmised to be error.

Indeed. As Adventists - as Arminians we do not believe in OSAS. Her testimony regarding Hull is important because it shows that while we may have that interactive event of assurance (as I already clearly stated regarding Rom 8:16) at one time--  and then at some later time -- lose it.

in Christ,

Bob
Bob it is very clear the phrase "Ellen White claims" carrys the implication of doubt or disbelief. This is not the first time that this kind of thing  has been pointed out to you. You need to pay attention to what people are telling you. Your contentious spirit is not well received.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Jim on December 02, 2008, 05:42:14 AM
If my point about Rom 8:16 is in anyway unclear -- go ahead and ask an actual question about the text or the doctrinal position. I am more than happy to answer.

Given that rule for candor - I would ask you a question, what in the world do you find 'nebulous' about Romans 8:16 and the topic of assurance of salvation???

I find nothing nebulous about Romans 8:16. What I find nebulous is your answer.... "It is something you have to experience for yourself...." The fact that you included a Bible text in your answer does not make your answer any less nebulous. Lots of errors have happened when people only use one Bible text to support their position.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on December 02, 2008, 07:49:42 AM
Is there something about Rom 8:16 that does not fit with an "experience" a "transaction event" that someone would have to deliberately experience?

That may be "contrasted" to simply "believing you are saved" or "claiming by faith a promise that you are saved". That is a faith statement and is the right thing to do - but "assurance" is based on verified evidence - an actual "event". If you are sitting in a class room where it is known ahead of time (Matt 7)  that 80% of the students will fail and where no graded homeworks or tests are ever returned to the students -- a student may by faith "believe" they are in that 20% -- but "assurance" would require something like Rom 8:16 "in addition".

The emphasis is one "events" that are experienced -- not merely assumed.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on December 02, 2008, 07:52:02 AM
Lots of errors have happened when people only use one Bible text to support their position.

Far be it from me to accuse-first or evil-surmise, but I hope you are not referring in any way to the SDA position in favor of "Sola scriptura" testing of all doctrinal posiitions (See FB#1)

So please explain what you mean by that.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 02, 2008, 08:08:39 AM
Far be it from me to accuse-first or evil-surmise, but I hope you are not referring in any way to the SDA position in favor of "Sola scriptura" testing of all doctrinal posiitions (See FB#1)

So please explain what you mean by that.

in Christ,

Bob

Come on Bob. You are "surmising" by implication. Why would you even consider that a concern about the vulnerability of using one Bible text alone would be detouring from Sola Scriptura." You are not fooling anyone here.

When you used the words "EGW claims" why did you not state "EGW said." "EGW claims" are words that typically a former SDA or an evangelical would use. While the wording may not aboslutely identify one's postion about her writings they imply a position of doubt.

When you imply that our church pioneers were not following the Holy Spirit because they thought Jesus was coming a particular day you reject or are ignorant of the fact that the SOP states that God providentially had His hand over this so as the Millerites could not see it as it was. They were not rejecting the Holy Spirit because of their error. They spent hour after hour in prayer and study.

The "evil surmising" you speak of is in actualitiy concerns over continually vague posting that give impressions of doubt. It is becoming increasing clear to me that what you are doing is the most subtle attack on the Sprit of Prophecy, the church pioneers, and the church today. Your posting invites skepticism and serious concern.

I think if you had the courage and forthrightness that we are showing in coming right out with it at least we could work from positions of clarity.

I have been posting and viewing this forum for years and have yet to see such vagueness and ambiguity as you have been presenting.

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Jim on December 02, 2008, 08:32:13 AM
Far be it from me to accuse-first or evil-surmise, but I hope you are not referring in any way to the SDA position in favor of "Sola scriptura" testing of all doctrinal posiitions (See FB#1)

So please explain what you mean by that.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob....wow... how did you make that leap in logic?  I'm not sure how you can take what I said and go in the direction you did. As Cp mentioned already, how does my concern of the vulnerablity of using a single Bible text come even close to abandoning sola scriptura?
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on December 02, 2008, 08:48:15 AM
Come on Bob. You are "surmising" by implication. Why would you even consider that a concern about the vulnerability of using one Bible text alone would be detouring from Sola Scriptura."

I see. So you would prefer two or three that said the same thing as Rom 8:16?


Quote
When you used the words "EGW claims" why did you not state "EGW said."

Because one can not claim something without saying it. i don't see what information is being added in your suggestion.

As for my method -- I try to avoid the error of presuming on the reader to accept my own support of Ellen White when it comes to an actual Bible doctrine. The SDA standard from FB#1 is "Sola Scriptura" testing of any doctrinal point. I try to stick with that as much as possible.
 
Quote
" "EGW claims" are words that typically a former SDA or an evangelical would use.

Indeed they might - but they often use "Ellen White SAID" -- in fact "very often".

Quote
When you imply that our church pioneers were not following the Holy Spirit because they thought Jesus was coming a particular day you reject or are ignorant of the fact that the SOP states that God providentially had His hand over this so as the Millerites could not see it as it was.

It would be better to use an actual quote from me on that accusation rather than merely assuming that I ever did such a thing as imply that the Millerites were not being lead by the Holy Spirit to make their case for 1843 and their two positions on 1844. In fact I explicitly argued the exact opposite.

Quote
They were not rejecting the Holy Spirit because of their error. They spent hour after hour in prayer and study.

True enough.

Quote
The "evil surmising" you speak of is in actualitiy concerns over continually vague posting that give impressions of doubt. It is becoming increasing clear to me that what you are doing is the most subtle attack on the Sprit of Prophecy, the church pioneers, and the church today.

I am continually amazed at how you can be so far from the truth in false accusation after false accusation.

Quote
Your posting invites skepticism and serious concern.

Because I used the word "claim"???

I would prayerfully urge that you begin to require "some substance" be available for your accusations. In this case they have lead you far astray from my position in your efforts to imagine a communist under a rock so to speak.


Quote
I have been posting and viewing this forum for years and have yet to see such vagueness and ambiguity as you have been presenting.

Ok here it is -- as frank as I know how to say it.

Those accustomed to "pablum only" rather than meat - will often react with shock and surprise to a position that require "thought" and Bible study. It matters not that the person posting that position endorses Ellen White AND all the 28 FB And the Rev 15 COP with no sinning during the time of the 7 last plagues. The mere shock of having to "think through" a topic that was supposed to be confined to "we are right because we always say we are right" seems to drive them into a frenzy of false accusations.

But may I suggest that "meat" is not as SDA and Ellen White threatening as you seem to have been lead to believe!

As it turns out Adventist views are "substantive" and they hold up to close Bible review -- the danger in "thinking" (that you suppose to be there) simply does not exist.

Having said that - I will grant you this one excuse - when I go to the liberal SDA sites they are often prone to subject areas like "the tough Questions" etc where they poke and prod at every possible aspect of Adventism in efforts to insert their own spin or excuse for deviating from the established doctrines. I suppose it is conceivable that there must be " someone" in the conservative camp that "might be led" to suppose that those thought-question areas of liberal SDA boards is really " the danger of thinking" and as you have done here - to condemn "meat" as well as "error" as if they are the same thing.

So if your intent was to find "something" -- there it is in living color. But it is not something I would choose to post. I prefer to stick to the actual details of the subject.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Raven on December 02, 2008, 12:30:27 PM
It is something you have to experience for yourself and is described in Rom 8:16 "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God".

It is interesting that Ellen White claimed that Moses Hull had this affirming assurance event take place in his life.

in Christ,

Bob

That is a very subjective answer.  Experience is not always a safe guide. Eve had a very uplifting experience.  She felt she was reaching a higher plane. 

Romans 8 does not use the term "assurance of salvation."  Any assurance of salvation is based on daily surrender to Christ.  Any assurance I may have today is no guarantee of any assurance tomorrow.  Paul said, "I die daily."  Any assurance of salvation is not an event, it is an experience that must be renewed every day.  I'm not sure where the quote about Moses Hull is found, but I do not believe she uses the term, "affirming assurance event."  "Affirming" and "assurance" sound like buzz words that we keep hearing from liberal theology.  They often mean affirmation of an unchanged life, and an "assurance" that gets very close to the concept of "once-saved-always-saved."
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: newbie on December 02, 2008, 01:10:18 PM
That is a very subjective answer.  Experience is not always a safe guide. Eve had a very uplifting experience.  She felt she was reaching a higher plane. 

Romans 8 does not use the term "assurance of salvation."  Any assurance of salvation is based on daily surrender to Christ.  Any assurance I may have today is no guarantee of any assurance tomorrow.  Paul said, "I die daily."  Any assurance of salvation is not an event, it is an experience that must be renewed every day.  I'm not sure where the quote about Moses Hull is found, but I do not believe she uses the term, "affirming assurance event."  "Affirming" and "assurance" sound like buzz words that we keep hearing from liberal theology.  They often mean affirmation of an unchanged life, and an "assurance" that gets very close to the concept of "once-saved-always-saved."

Raven,
I agree with this and the only time when we can actually say "we are saved" is after probation closes. 
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 02, 2008, 02:50:50 PM

Because I used the word "claim"???

CP>>> So you say "claim" is no different than "say" or "state?"

I would prayerfully urge that you begin to require "some substance" be available for your accusations. In this case they have lead you far astray from my position in your efforts to imagine a communist under a rock so to speak.

CP>>> Quote by BobRyan  on page 1  "What we often lightly pass over in that history - is in fact "the hard question". How could you possibly have been listening to the Holy Spirit back then -- going against what you thought the Bible to be teaching when it came to "knowing the day" yes - the very day of the Lord's appearing? I fear that we are feeding our own people on little more than pablum when it comes to wrestling with the hard questions - and we are not prepared to face a close and cutting test -- many would fail even as the non-Millerite sentiment was the prevailing sentiment of the Christian church in the 1840's."



Could you explain who was going against the Holy Spirit in this quote?

Specifically, what pablam is the church feeding its people when wrestling with tough questions?

Give specific examples of the pablam and the tough questions rather than excelling in ambiguity.

I agree that often our people are fed the wrong food. Examples? "rationalizing women's ordination, variations of cheap grace,  music as a  neutral medium, and the idea that it is not the methods but the message that matters."  This is what I mean about being direct and giving specific examples. Not everyone agrees with my views but at least they know what they are. You seem to intentionally cloak everything especially when it comes to examples that would specifally clairify your point. I don't know, maybe you are simply to highly educated for anyone to understand. I notice that most on the forum are having the same difficulty with your posting as myself, so perhaps it is all of us? 

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: BobRyan on December 03, 2008, 02:57:42 PM
Quote

Because I used the word "claim"

CP>>> So you say "claim" is no different than "say" or "state?"

I would prayerfully urge that you begin to require "some substance" be available for your accusations. In this case they have lead you far astray from my position in your efforts to imagine a communist under a rock so to speak.

CP>>> Quote by BobRyan  on page 1  "What we often lightly pass over in that history - is in fact "the hard question". How could you (A Millerite) possibly have been listening to the Holy Spirit back then -- going against what you (A Millerite) thought the Bible to be teaching when it came to "knowing the day" yes - the very day of the Lord's appearing?



Could you explain who was going against the Holy Spirit in this quote?

Yes. Edit's in red placed in the quote above to help ensure that the meaing is more clear to the reader. We know today from Ellen White (in retrospect) that they were following the Holy Spirit. The intent is to place the reader BEFORE THE POINT of simply being able to "read Ellen White to see if that is what the Holy Spirit is directing" in that difficult scenario. In other words -- without having all the answers first -- how to solve the problem.

I think there is a certain tendancy to only deal with situations where we can plug in canned answers. I am pointing out an opportunity to go back in time and think about it for a minute. If one is willing to engage in that objective exercise it has all the earmarks of a "tough problem" to solve. And given that it would be naive to suppose that all the tough problems have been presented and solved -- no more to come... this is a good opportunity to learn from the past rather than ignoring the gravity and implications of it.

Quote
Bob said
I fear that we are feeding our own people on little more than pablum when it comes to wrestling with the hard questions - and we are not prepared to face a close and cutting test -- many would fail even as the non-Millerite sentiment was the prevailing sentiment of the Christian church in the 1840's."

Quote
Specifically, what pablam is the church feeding its people when wrestling with tough questions?

In the comment above I simply re-emphasize the need to "engage in the exercise" and let the mind consider something other than a canned problem-answer scenario.

But when I say "we" I don't necessarily mean the Adventist "denomination" as though this were some kind of legislated policy. Clearly there are many places one can go today to see lots of difficult unnanswered problems raised and discussed. But I prefer to see the conservative Adventist groups engaged in embracing the challenge to work it through and "do the math" as they say... because in the conservative group you have the right doctrine and full acceptance of Ellen White -- so "the tools" are there to do a very good job if only the effort were made.

in Christ,

Bob
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 06, 2008, 12:47:06 AM
Raven,
I agree with this and the only time when we can actually say "we are saved" is after probation closes. 

There is so much scripture affirming that we can know that we are saved today. If we have been born again, then we are indeed a child of God, and we belong to His family. If we belong to His family and have been ADOPTED, then it is true that the Spirit of God testifies with our spirit that we are indeed saved.

So for the child of God, the Romans 8 passage seems to affirm our assurance of salvation:

 14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 15 For ye HAVE NOT received the SPIRIT of BONDAGE again to FEAR; but YE HAVE RECEIVED the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (BTW, this expression Abba Father connotes a very intimate close relationship, almost like a "daddy" except of course not quite, but the point is that as adopted sons we can have a special assurance of acceptance and salvation--this allows us to live the Christian life victoriously.)

 16The Spirit itself BEARETH WITNESS with OUR SPIRIT, that WE ARE the children of God:

 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Roman meaning of the word ADOPTION in Paul's day had a very strong permanent connotation. When a foreigner was adopted into a Roman family, this relationship was considered permanent.

I am not saying "Once Saved Always Saved", as that doctrine in popular evangelicalism is so abused, but at the same time, we are not to live in a spirit of fear of losing our salvation. After all, if we are born again, we are in the family, and a family member usually has to rebel to a significant extent, and want to leave the family before he is lost.

Jesus makes some absolute promises of our assurance of salvation:

John 5:24:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE and SHALL NOT come into condemnation; BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.
-----------------------------------------------------------
When you look at the tenses of the language Jesus used, you would have to conclude that Jesus wanted us to have assurance of salvation for today.

John 10:27-30:

27My SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28And I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND.

 29 My Father, WHICH GAVE THEM TO ME, is GREATER than all; and NO MAN IS ABLE TO PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND.

 30 I and my Father are one.
-----------------------------------------------------

The epistle of 1st John was written so that we could know that we have eternal life. John states this purpose several different times in this epistle that these things are written that ye may know that ye have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:1-8

 1And YOU hath he quickened, who WERE DEAD in trespasses and sins;

 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

 5Even when WE WERE DEAD in sins, hath QUICKENED US together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 6 AND HATH RAISED US UP TOGETHER, AND MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS:

 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Again, notice the tenses that are used above. Our salvation is a present reality.

According to Paul we who have been given new life in Christ, are presently seated together in HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ Jesus.

How could this statement be true if we can't know that we are saved until after probation closes?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stan
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Raven on December 06, 2008, 04:39:59 AM
There is so much scripture affirming that we can know that we are saved today. If we have been born again, then we are indeed a child of God, and we belong to His family. If we belong to His family and have been ADOPTED, then it is true that the Spirit of God testifies with our spirit that we are indeed saved.

So for the child of God, the Romans 8 passage seems to affirm our assurance of salvation:

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
Again, notice the tenses that are used above. Our salvation is a present reality.

According to Paul we who have been given new life in Christ, are presently seated together in HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ Jesus.

How could this statement be true if we can't know that we are saved until after probation closes?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stan

This is all well and good, but Sister White plainly said that we should not say that we are saved.  What is the problem with that concept?  Where can you find Scriptural support for the notion that my "assurance of salvation" today is any good for tomorrow?  Justification is a daily experience.  It is not a vaccination.  In fact, Sister White says that those who are closest to Jesus won't we worrying about their "assurance of salvation;" they will be most concerned about doing the will of God and pleasing Him.

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.  I Cor. 10:12

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 06, 2008, 04:41:15 AM
Romans 8 does not use the term "assurance of salvation." 

Ah, but Romans 8 is about assurance:

14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 15 For ye HAVE NOT received the SPIRIT of BONDAGE again to FEAR; but YE HAVE RECEIVED the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (BTW, this expression Abba Father connotes a very intimate close relationship, almost like a "daddy" except of course not quite, but the point is that as adopted sons we can have a special assurance of acceptance and salvation--this allows us to live the Christian life victoriously.)

 16The Spirit itself BEARETH WITNESS with OUR SPIRIT, that WE ARE the children of God:

 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
-------------------------------------------------------------

Then going on in the same chapter from Romans 8:28-39:

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 30Moreover WHOM he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he CALLED them he also JUSTIFIED: and WHOM HE JUSTIFIED, THEM HE ALSO GLORIFIED.

 31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

 33Who shall lay any thing to the CHARGE OF GOD'S ELECT?  It is God that JUSTIFIETH.

 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 35 WHO SHALL SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST?  shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

 38FOR I AM PERSUADED, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD,WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What a magnificient and beautiful statement of the assurance we have if we are born again and called according to His purpose.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 06, 2008, 04:49:13 AM
This is all well and good, but Sister White plainly said that we should not say that we are saved.  What is the problem with that concept?  Where can you find Scriptural support for the notion that my "assurance of salvation" today is any good for tomorrow? 


Raven,

You didn't address the clear scriptures I posted above which clearly say that we can say that we are saved. John 10:27-30 quoted an excellent passage that we are secure in the hands of both Jesus and the Father. Also, after you posted, I continued quoting from Romans 8:28-39 which clearly states that our assurance of salvation is good for tomorrow.

I don't know what plainer scriptural evidence there is for our assurance of salvation.

I would also like Pastor O'Ffill's input on this topic.

Stan
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Raven on December 06, 2008, 04:58:14 AM
Raven,

You didn't address the clear scriptures I posted above which clearly say that we can say that we are saved. John 10:27-30 quoted an excellent passage that we are secure in the hands of both Jesus and the Father. Also, after you posted, I continued quoting from Romans 8:28-39 which clearly states that our assurance of salvation is good for tomorrow.

I don't know what plainer scriptural evidence there is for our assurance of salvation.

I would also like Pastor O'Ffill's input on this topic.

Stan

Then you are pitting the Bible against the SOP, and I don't believe there is any inconsistency or disagreement between them.  Since she said so plainly that we should not say we are saved, it may be necessary to go back and study Romans more carefully to discern what Paul really means.  To say that my assurance of salvation today is good for tomorrow comes very close to the concept of "once saved always saved," and may even cross that line.  There is a danger of complacency when one assumes and says that they are saved.  I am in the process of being saved, but I do not claim to be there, yet.  That should not cause distress, it should, on the contrary, cause one to strive to be more like Christ.

Romans 8 says that nothing "shall be able to separate us from the love of God," but that's no guarantee that we can't be separated from salvation. Scripture says that "God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."  Rom. 5:8  So, the fact that we can't be separated from God's love (even while still sinners) only assures of His love toward us, not our salvation.  That choice is still ours on a daily basis.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 06, 2008, 09:27:01 AM
Then you are pitting the Bible against the SOP, and I don't believe there is any inconsistency or disagreement between them.  Since she said so plainly that we should not say we are saved, it may be necessary to go back and study Romans more carefully to discern what Paul really means.  To say that my assurance of salvation today is good for tomorrow comes very close to the concept of "once saved always saved," and may even cross that line.  There is a danger of complacency when one assumes and says that they are saved.  I am in the process of being saved, but I do not claim to be there, yet.  That should not cause distress, it should, on the contrary, cause one to strive to be more like Christ.

Romans 8 says that nothing "shall be able to separate us from the love of God," but that's no guarantee that we can't be separated from salvation. Scripture says that "God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."  Rom. 5:8  So, the fact that we can't be separated from God's love (even while still sinners) only assures of His love toward us, not our salvation.  That choice is still ours on a daily basis.
Here are a coupe of EGW quotes that may go with her statement about not saying "I am saved."

"Put away all doubts; dismiss your fears. Say with the apostle Paul, 'I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me' Galatians 2:20. Rest in God, He is able to keep that which you have committed to Him. If you will leave yourself in His hands, He will bring you off more than conqueror through Him that loved you." (Steps to Christ, p 272).

"We should not make self the center and indulge in anxiety and fear as to whether we shall be saved. All this turns the soul away from the Source of our strength. Commit the keeping of your soul to God, and trust in Him. Talk and think of Jesus. Let self be lost in Him. Put away all doubts; dismiss your fears. Say with the apostle Paul, 'I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and theand the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.' Rest in God He is able to keep that you have committed to Him." (Steps to Christ, p 72)

Quotes taken from Herbert Douglas' book, "Should We Ever Say 'I Am Saved" --What it means to be assured of Salvation,  pp 49, 50.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 06, 2008, 03:02:35 PM
Then you are pitting the Bible against the SOP, and I don't believe there is any inconsistency or disagreement between them.  Since she said so plainly that we should not say we are saved, it may be necessary to go back and study Romans more carefully to discern what Paul really means.  To say that my assurance of salvation today is good for tomorrow comes very close to the concept of "once saved always saved," and may even cross that line.  There is a danger of complacency when one assumes and says that they are saved.  I am in the process of being saved, but I do not claim to be there, yet.  That should not cause distress, it should, on the contrary, cause one to strive to be more like Christ.

Romans 8 says that nothing "shall be able to separate us from the love of God," but that's no guarantee that we can't be separated from salvation. Scripture says that "God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."  Rom. 5:8  So, the fact that we can't be separated from God's love (even while still sinners) only assures of His love toward us, not our salvation.  That choice is still ours on a daily basis.

Raven,

I am not pitting the Bible against EGW. It was EGW who said on many times that we should get our primary doctrinal statements from careful Bible study and not her writings.

But here again is a simple straightforward statement from Jesus Himself, and I WILL take Jesus at His Word:

John 5:24:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE and SHALL NOT come into condemnation; BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.
-----------------------------------------------

This verse is not out of context. This is an unconditional promise from Jesus Himself.  Whenever Jesus uses the words "VERILY VERILY,I SAY UNTO YOU..."  then I think we ought to be paying attention, and not just ignore it.

If we hear and believe His Word. Jesus says we HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION, BUT WE ARE PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

If we are born again by a miraculous work of the Spirit as in John 3, then doesn't it follow from Romans 8 that we will be given assurance of salvation on a daily basis, as the Holy Spirit lives within us to testify of this, and this is why we can be assured of God the Father ADOPTING US AS HIS SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

Christ loves His Church as His own bride. He spilled His precious blood on Calvary to purchase our salvation. Don't you think He will make every effort to keep us in His family? He adopted us into His family for the purpose of bringing His saving work to completion.

Again from John 10:27-30:

27My SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 28And I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE and THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND.

 29 My Father, WHICH GAVE THEM TO ME, is GREATER than all; and NO MAN IS ABLE TO PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND.

 30 I and my Father are one.
------------------------------------------------------

If these texts don't move us to break out and sing "Blessed Assurance Jesus is mine, Oh what a foretaste of glory divine", then I don't know what will.

We can take Jesus just at His Word.

Yes, it is possible for a son or daughter to become so rebellious, and they don't want to  remain in the family, then in that case that person will be much worse off.

But most people who have truly been born again, and have tasted of the beauties of abiding in the everlasting arms of Christ, will never let go, and we will be safe in the hands of the Father and Son, because They have promised not to let go of us.

Stan
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 06, 2008, 06:35:15 PM
Salvation is in process. It is not past tense. We are being saved. This is assurance but not presumption. Salvation is not over for the faithful living but enroute. If we are in a saving relationship but fail to stay connected to the Vine we are in great danger of being lost and will be lost unless we reconnect, repent,  and turn from sin. We do not believe in once saved always saved but we can have assurance of salvation as long as we stay connected and obey God. If we are rejecting light from the SOP we are in great danger of being lost.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: newbie on December 06, 2008, 06:41:43 PM
Salvation is in process. It is not past tense. We are being saved. This is assurance but not presumption. Salvation is not over for the faithful living but enroute. If we are in a saving relationship but fail to stay connected to the Vine we are in great danger of being lost and will be lost unless we reconnect, repent,  and turn from sin. We do not believe in once saved always saved but we can have assurance of salvation as long as we stay connected and obey God. If we are rejecting light from the SOP we are in great danger of being lost.

so true...
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 07, 2008, 12:53:16 AM
Here is just one more scripture from 1John which reiterates the truth in John 5:24:

1 John 5:11-13

11And this is the record, that God hath GIVEN to us ETERNAL LIFE, and this life is in his Son.

 12He that HATH the Son HATH life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 13THESE THINGS have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,  and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
-------------------------------------------------------------

How would the above passage, and the ones I quoted previously make any sense if we cannot know that we are saved now?  Many of the passages are clearly written in the past tense.

I agree that not only have we been saved, but we are being saved continually until final glorification. But we live the victorious Christian life BECAUSE we have heaven, and not to gain heaven, or we have a salvation by works program.  We put on the helmet of SALVATION as Ephesians 6 says so that we are equipped for the battle against the World, the flesh, and the devil.

I know that there is so much bad teaching out there with regard to cheap grace, and a bad view of OSAS, and there is the fear in some Christian circles that we will become complacent if we somehow believe that we are saved.

But the Bible teaches that if we are born again, we are indeed adopted into God's family as His sons and daughters, and we should be able to have that calm assurance as one who belongs to His wonderful family. He is not anxious to kick us out of His family for occasional misdeeds, but it is possible to rebel to the point where we leave the family. But again in John 6:37-40 KJV Jesus is very clear:

37 ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME;  and HIM that COMETH to me I will in NO WISE CAST OUT.

 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 39And THIS IS THE FATHER'S WILL  which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should LOSE NOTHING,  but should raise it up again at the last day.

 40 And this is the WILL of him that sent me, that EVERY ONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
----------------------------------------

Anyone who says they are born again and "saved", yet uses the grace of God as license for sin, is clearly not born again, and can have no assurance of salvation.

The new birth is a true miracle of grace where the Holy Spirit gives us a literal heart transplant, He removes the heart of stone and creates a heart of flesh. He then gives us the power to live a victorious Christian life.

Stan
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 07, 2008, 08:05:20 AM
Stan;

In your opinion once a person "has been saved "can they be lost?

Once a person is converted is salvation over?
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: El on December 07, 2008, 09:47:03 AM
Sure, many seminary students are coming into the seminary like that. Yet, many are not.

Andrews seminary has some huge problems themselves with many things they teach and promote that are following in the paths of Babylon. These errors are coming from those who are teachers and leadership. Their independent thinking apart from the simple teachings of the Word of God and the SOP has earned them the slogan, "There is nothing new under the sun." Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. 18 And now what hast thou to do in the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Sihor? or what hast thou to do in the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river?

Many who are leaders and teachers are no better than the Pharisees of old, but who are living today. "The blind, lead the blind."
I am not saying that I do or don't think that you are right in this posting.  But it does lead me to wonder , if our Seminary is so wrong, and so misguided,  do you believe that God has a hand in what is taught or believed in our seminaries?  If this is true then why does He allow so much wrong to be taught, especially to the future leaders of our church?  In what direction are we headed and why does God permit those who are teaching, to do so in the paths of Babylon?
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: newbie on December 07, 2008, 10:08:43 AM
I am not saying that I do or don't think that you are right in this posting.  But it does lead me to wonder , if our Seminary is so wrong, and so misguided,  do you believe that God has a hand in what is taught or believed in our seminaries?  If this is true then why does He allow so much wrong to be taught, especially to the future leaders of our church?  In what direction are we headed and why does God permit those who are teaching, to do so in the paths of Babylon?

El,
I also share with you in that those have been my same questions over time.... 
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Raven on December 07, 2008, 10:16:36 AM
I am not saying that I do or don't think that you are right in this posting.  But it does lead me to wonder , if our Seminary is so wrong, and so misguided,  do you believe that God has a hand in what is taught or believed in our seminaries?  If this is true then why does He allow so much wrong to be taught, especially to the future leaders of our church?  In what direction are we headed and why does God permit those who are teaching, to do so in the paths of Babylon?

Unless we are worse off than during the time of Elijah, God still has his servants who have not bowed the knee to Baal, even in our institutions of higer learning.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Arnie on December 07, 2008, 11:06:05 AM
I am not saying that I do or don't think that you are right in this posting.  But it does lead me to wonder , if our Seminary is so wrong, and so misguided,  do you believe that God has a hand in what is taught or believed in our seminaries?  If this is true then why does He allow so much wrong to be taught, especially to the future leaders of our church?  In what direction are we headed and why does God permit those who are teaching, to do so in the paths of Babylon?


God means that truth shall be brought to the front and become the subject of examination and discussion, even through the contempt placed upon it. The minds of the people must be agitated; every controversy, every reproach, every effort to restrict liberty of conscience, is God's means of awakening minds that otherwise might slumber.  {MB 33.2}

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.  And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes....Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.  Ezekiel 36:22, 23, 25.

Christ had foretold that deceivers would arise, through whose influence "iniquity" should "abound," and "the love of many" should "wax cold." Matthew 24:12. He had warned the disciples that the church would be in more danger from this evil than from the persecution of her enemies. Again and again Paul warned the believers against these false teachers. This peril, above all others, they must guard against; for by receiving false teachers, they would open the door to errors by which the enemy would dim the spiritual perceptions and shake the confidence of those newly come to the faith of the gospel. Christ was the standard by which they were to test the doctrines presented. All that was not in harmony with His teachings they were to reject. Christ crucified for sin, Christ risen from the dead, Christ ascended on high--this was the science of salvation that they were to learn and teach.  {AA 473.3}

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Arnie on December 07, 2008, 11:06:22 AM
"God will arouse His people; if other means fail, heresies will come in among them, which will sift them, separating the chaff form the wheat." Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5, page 707.

Satan has gained marked advantage in ----- because the people of God have not guarded the outposts. The very men whose labors God has signified that He would accept if they were fully consecrated have been the ones to be deceived, to fail in their duties, and to prove a terrible burden and discouragement, instead of the help and blessing that they should have been. These men who have been trusted to keep the fort have well-nigh betrayed it into the hands of the enemy. They have opened the gates to a wily foe, who has sought to destroy them.  {4T 211.2}

Men of experience have seen stealthy hands slipping the bolts that Satan might enter; yet they have held their peace with apparent indifference as to the results. Some have been glad to see this, as it seemed an extenuation of their past neglect, which made it a necessity to call for others to fill the posts of responsibility that they had abused or neglected. This lack of watchfulness on the part of these newer incumbents seemed to excuse the former for their own want of faithfulness, as it showed that others were fully as derelict in duty. These persons do not realize that God holds them responsible for every advantage gained by the foe who is admitted to the fort. The desolation and ruin following lie at the door of the unfaithful sentinels, who, by their neglect, become agents in the hands of the adversary to win souls to destruction. Men in responsible positions should seek wisdom and guidance of God, and not trust to their own judgment and knowledge. Like Solomon they should earnestly pray for faith and light, and God will give them freely of His abundant supply.  {4T 211.3}

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure."  {1SM 204.2}



Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 07, 2008, 11:56:32 AM
There is a danger that because we are told that the church will go through, that we think as did Israel of old that we are imuned or that God somehow will not allow us freedom to wander. We often forget who and what the church is... that goes through. It does not go through as a institutional  body but as a body of faithful believers. The SDA church militant does not go through anymore than did the nation of Israel. It was those who were faithful. It is the church triumphant that goes through. Exactly what that will look like at any given time is open to discusion and study.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: newbie on December 07, 2008, 12:39:53 PM
There is a danger that because we are told that the church will go through, that we think as did Israel of old that we are imuned or that God somehow will not allow us freedom to wander. We often forget who and what the church is... that goes through. It does not go through as a institutional  body but as a body of faithful believers. The SDA church militant does not go through anymore than did the nation of Israel. It was those who were faithful. It is the church triumphant that goes through. Exactly what that will look like at any given time is open to discusion and study.

This is what is truth.  ... and judgment starts at the house of God.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Soli Deo Gloria on December 07, 2008, 10:40:32 PM
Stan;

In your opinion once a person "has been saved "can they be lost?

Once a person is converted is salvation over?

Thanks CP for asking.
Here is what I posted just before your question:

"I agree that not only have we been saved, but we are being saved continually until final glorification. But we live the victorious Christian life BECAUSE we have heaven, and not to gain heaven, or we have a salvation by works program.  We put on the helmet of SALVATION as Ephesians 6 says so that we are equipped for the battle against the World, the flesh, and the devil..."

"But the Bible teaches that if we are born again, we are indeed adopted into God's family as His sons and daughters, and we should be able to have that calm assurance as one who belongs to His wonderful family. He is not anxious to kick us out of His family for occasional misdeeds, but it is possible to rebel to the point where we leave the family."
---------------------------------------------------------

After 25 years of close observation of many Christians in many different denominations, and of course observing many of the lives of my close SDA friends and extended family members, I have come to the conclusion that many of those who eventually fall away and leave the faith were not truly converted to begin with. Very few of those whom I believed to be truly converted have so far fallen away from the faith. I believe this to be true of many of my friends posting on this website, who may be reluctant to agree with my thoughts on this thread.

The apostle John talks about this issue in 1 John 2:19

 19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
--------------------------------------

We are never to become complacent. The Bible is filled with warnings about falling away, so it must be possible to fall away.

However, just review the many scriptures I quoted on this thread, and there are so many promises that place the emphasis of the work of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as working to keep us saved.

John 10-27-30 is just too powerful to ignore  regarding the Sheep "No man is able to pluck them out of my hand or the Father's hand"  It may be possible for us to take ourselves out of safekeeping. The question is "are we truly sheep or are we really goats?

I think Morris Venden once wrote a book called "Almost once saved always saved", or at least used that expression. I don't agree with many things Venden wrote, but he may have a point.

I believe the biggest problem in this discussion is not alwasys grasping what the meaning of the new birth and regeneration means. There are too many false conversions. So many people believe they became saved when they went forward in response to an altar call after several stanzas of "Just as I am" were played. Of course many of these conversions are not valid. The Billy Graham organization to their credit actually did a study of the "converts" that come forward at their crusades. While it is true that there are valid conversions at their crusades, they will concede that many of them were false, as the folks were never grounded in the faith.

John 3:1-8 discusses what it means to be born again.

It is like the parable of the sower: Some of the seed falls on bad soil, but the true converts have fertile hearts, and the seed that is sown produces much fruit.

For someone who is truly saved, I believe it is very difficult for them to be lost, because the promises of safekeeping in scripture are so very strong. But the warnings against falling away still apply, and we must always be on guard.

Stan
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 08, 2008, 07:26:09 AM
Thanks CP for asking.

After 25 years of close observation of many Christians in many different denominations, and of course observing many of the lives of my close SDA friends and extended family members, I have come to the conclusion that many of those who eventually fall away and leave the faith were not truly converted to begin with. Very few of those whom I believed to be truly converted have so far fallen away from the faith. I believe this to be true of many of my friends posting on this website, who may be reluctant to agree with my thoughts on this thread.

The apostle John talks about this issue in 1 John 2:19

 19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
--------------------------------------

We are never to become complacent. The Bible is filled with warnings about falling away, so it must be possible to fall away.



Thank you for responding Stan.

So as to avoid possible confusion could you clarify what you meant by the above statement in bold?

How would you describe "they went out from us" etc.. ?

Thanks.

cp
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Dalfie on December 08, 2008, 11:46:36 AM
After 25 years of close observation of many Christians in many different denominations, and of course observing many of the lives of my close SDA friends and extended family members, I have come to the conclusion that many of those who eventually fall away and leave the faith were not truly converted to begin with. Very few of those whom I believed to be truly converted have so far fallen away from the faith.

I too have come to this conclusion. I wish I could remember references for you (other than 1 John), but I know it was a combination of study and observation. (granted, I have not observed that many years ;) )

Of course, we must be cautious when making such observations, since we don't see hearts.

Quote
For someone who is truly saved, I believe it is very difficult for them to be lost, because the promises of safekeeping in scripture are so very strong. But the warnings against falling away still apply, and we must always be on guard.

If you're saying what I think you are, I would agree. The fully surrendered heart will not find it easy to let go of Jesus, because Jesus is already in full control.

Agreed with being on guard, and I might add, that rarely do we fully know our own hearts. Even in the most surrendered heart,  a little bit of self can lurk. We must continually submit ourselves fully to Jesus, or we are at risk of succumbing to temptation. Personally, I feel so sinful and weak, that I cannot imagine being confident enough that I have given my ENTIRE heart to Jesus. On the opposite side of the coin, I know that if I continually take my sins back to Jesus, and truly desire to live in obedience to Him, He is faithful... so I needn't doubt His promises.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: dedication on December 09, 2008, 10:49:12 PM
Interesting that Peter, even though he was one of Christ's disciples, and even though he worked with Christ, and for Christ, etc. was NOT yet converted.   
He wasn't fully converted until his own Gethsemany experience.
   

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 10, 2008, 09:19:23 AM
Interesting that Peter, even though he was one of Christ's disciples, and even though he worked with Christ, and for Christ, etc. was NOT yet converted.   
He wasn't fully converted until his own Gethsemany experience.
   

That would seem to indicate that sometimes even being among them is not necessarily to be "among them." I was thinking not so much of Peter but of Judas.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Ed Sutton on December 12, 2008, 01:08:37 AM
Is it believed that a converted person can never return to being unconverted ?

Then why the admonition to be RE-converted ? (look in EGW CD rom - folio views )

If a person has never benn converted the language is not Re converted, but converted.

Besides look up the phrase "not saved until"  in folio views.

Here's my simplified way of putting it.

Conversion = starting the new life in Christ. 

Justified = (pardoned [passover/brazen serpent]+ cleansed [propitiated-red heifer]+ infilled [morning / evening mediation appointments- "vital transfusion", wedding garments/oil in lamp wick trimmed )

Sanctification = cooperating with Christ to dwell in you and you in Him, and walk with Him unconditionally, progressivly to fullest opportunity.

Being saved before the Second Coming = sealed with the seal of the living God

Being saved at last = sealed + redemption of the body + changed in the twinkling of an eye, called up to ever be with the Lord.

***********************

Solomon was once converted, fell away - his candlestick was removed (see folio views - solomon candlestick removed) , was reconverted - his candle reignited - relit.

Look up phrase in folio views "genuine conversion"   "this is the new birth"     ( conversion*   genuine )
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: dedication on December 12, 2008, 06:27:05 PM
It's not an "either-or" question.

Both problems are real.

Conversion --
It's more than just starting a new way of life.
Many people start a new way of life without ever experiencing conversion.   They go along with the rules and cultural norms of the group they have joined.

"they were not genuine Christians; they did not know the spirit of conversion.
They had a theory as to how the work should be done, but they did not feel
their dependence upon God.  {CM 48.3}

That's where Peter fell short --
He changed much in his life as a disciple of Christ, but he was still self-sufficient and did not feel his dependence upon God.
He was NOT yet converted.
And without true conversion and realization just how much we depend upon God, we, just like Peter will deny our Lord when the pressure comes.


Now the other question -- can one who was genuinely converted lose that experience.
The answer is "yes"
If they allow the troubles and cares and other time obsorbing activities (it can even be good activities not only a slipping into questionable activities)  to crowd Christ out of their lives, they start to rely upon self and loose sight of that which they once had.

They need to be "re-converted".
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Jim on December 25, 2008, 10:52:59 AM
He wasn't fully converted until his own Gethsemany experience.

Could you give some evidence for this statement?
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: newbie on December 25, 2008, 11:07:29 AM
Quote
Luke 22:"31": And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

"32": But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Jim on December 25, 2008, 01:30:59 PM
I'm not sure that is evidence that he wasn't ever converted before that.

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 25, 2008, 03:13:23 PM
I'm not sure that is evidence that he wasn't ever converted before that.


That's true but there isn't evidence that he ever was.  It would seem odd that he was converted before or at the time he met Christ and then backslid during his walk with Christ. It seems more logical since we are not told he was ever converted that he never went through conversion until after Christ's death. I suspect this was true of most all the disciples accept for perhaps John. It seems that there were some big issues with the disciples as they walked with Jesus
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: GraceVessel on December 25, 2008, 08:30:47 PM
After reading this thread at length and pondering the title.  I am having a hard time believing that the disciples were not actually saved "experiencing a walk of faith" while they spent time with Jesus day by day during this ministry.  That coupled with the fact that Judas was even accepted into the twelve until he rejected Christ in the upper room.... I cannot agree with the complete "lack of assurance" perspective or tone this thread is stating.

While I am not a calvinist, i am not totally armenianist to the extent that i grovel around all day not sure that Jesus is my saviour as I walk in faith.  Part and parcel of growing continually in faith is predicated on the belief that I am saved past tense, am being saved present tense, and that process of continually dying daily to Jesus and continuing a true heart worship -- is the experience of Sanctification.

I am not SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, SAVED, LOST, ... ad infinitum... in any given sec, minute, day, week, year, or lifetime.  If my focus is on bringing God glory in everything I do... then i am in a saved condition with Jesus.

To discuss the other points whether you want to use a "slider" to determine when i was actually saved (much of this thread is calvinistic in application), or you can loose it at any time... Armenianistic... "without assurance" ... is not of faith... because whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  And you cannot tell me that the disciples were not walking in faith during Jesus ministry.

Furthermore... if you extrapolate the premise that sanctification is something that "we" accomplish and not what God accompilshes "in us" by faith.  Then the obvious answer is that there is no character growth.  I was under the impression from reading EGW/SOP and the bible that God is looking for people with His character.

When the disciples started on their walk with God and forsook all... they were saved at that point.  I have the assurance that I am saved, am being saved now and that God will draw me into a deeper relationship with him- ultimately via glorification.  I "choose" to remove those things that displease him "sin" out of respect, honor, and loyalty. 

I fully believe that God gives us the option to "choose" to not serve Him.  We can make that choice.  But God is not waiting expectantly me for me to fall in sin so that he can say "told you so" you are lost.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 26, 2008, 08:06:36 AM
I think the problem is in confusion over what it means to be converted. I'll try to post some from inspiration in the near future.
We are told that people can come into the church and be baptized and not be converted. The enemy even plants people in the church that work for him. I do not think they generally think they are being used this way. My point is that to simply accept somethings and make some moves is not necessarily an indication of conversion due to poor motives. The SOP brings out that Judas was constantly rejecting the Holy Spirit. He was "in the church" highly esteemed and held a high office but self was at the center. Judas was not the only one that was troubled in this way but while Judas was not surrendered and converted the others became so

You cannot successfully argue that Peter was never unconverted after he dropped the nets as Jesus himself said "when you are converted."
Externals are often false indicators. I suppose one could say that Peter was in process of conversion since the time he dropped his nets. The problem with that is that conversion and sanctification are not identical, synonymous terms. We are told that "sanctification is the work of a lifetime." Conversion cannot be identical to this or else Jesus would not have said when you are converted feed my sheep." If Peter would need to live an entire lifetime before he was converted he would never feed the sheep and Christ's statement would have been meaningless.

      I believe Peter was not converted until after Jesus died. He was not lost /saved lost/ saved but simply lost/converted. To be converted does not mean there are no rough edges. Sanctification continues. Conversion is a major shift/ surrender in the will and choices. One can accept versions of certain things intellectually and not have a changed heart. I believe there was a battle going on in the heart and mind of Peter while he walked with Christ but he did not surrender the heart in the truest sense until he was converted latter.

When we toss several terms into the pot as though they were identical when they are not only adds confusion. SOP states in COL that we should not teach people to believe they are "saved" because this is misleading. "Converted" is the term that we have been using and quoting from Scripture. Just as a person being baptized is not proof of conversion neither was following Christ proof of conversion. There were many that followed and sought after Christ. For those who were not puffed up in leadership roles in Israel Christ was person that drew them to Him. some were drawn for what they could get. Some were drawn because they followed the thinking of the day that the Messiah would sit on the throne of David and place the disciples in positions of power and leadership. I am not claiming that there were no good motives in the minds of the disciples but there some very selfish motives. Christ did not choose the disciples because they were converted or that they would even be so soon but because He saw what they could be when they were converted.

Christ did not say ...while you are going through conversion.... He said "when you are converted" ( converted is past tense)
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: GraceVessel on December 26, 2008, 04:05:20 PM
CP you are correct about Judas per the following quotation:

The history of Judas presents the sad ending of a life that might have been honored of God. Had Judas died before his last journey to Jerusalem he would have been regarded as a man worthy of a place among the twelve, and one who would be greatly missed. The abhorrence which has followed him through the centuries would not have existed but for the attributes revealed at the close of his history. But it was for a purpose that his character was laid open to the world. It was to be a warning to all who, like him, should betray sacred trusts. {DA 716.1}

"CP - I think the problem is in confusion over what it means to be converted. I'll try to post some from inspiration in the near future."

Actually, defining what you mean by conversion is the discussion point.  Which begs the question, if Peter was not converted until after Christ's death and his betrayal of Him... what does that say for me.... or anyone else... Where is the assurance that God is with me every step of the way. 

Should I question whether or not I was "really" baptized when I was really baptized... or "saved" when I was really saved.  This sounds very Calvinistic to me.

"The covenant of grace is instituted at the fall, and administered through successive historic covenants seen in Scripture for the purpose of redemption. By its terms, salvation comes not by any personal performance, but by promise. Peace with God comes only through a mediator, the fulfillment of which is found in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Christ is seen as the federal head of his elect people, and thus the covenant is the basis of the doctrines of the substitutionary atonement and the imputation of the active obedience of Christ" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism - (Covenant Theology)

CP - The problem with that is that conversion and sanctification are not identical, synonymous terms.  --- This is a true statement .... conversion starts at a point in time and reoccurs (re-conversion -- every day by "dying daily")... to wit - Sanctification is the process that occurs and is a direct result from the continued "walk of faith".

This of course is defined within the Calvinistic concept of Irresistible grace
Irresistible grace
The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.

The doctrine does not hold that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism - Irresistible grace 

Given this as a premise - you are on both sides if you say that Peter was never converted until after the resurrection - ----

   In the answers that Peter gave to the Lord's thrice-repeated question, a different spirit is manifested from what we find in the boastful assurances before the crucifixion of Christ. Peter was a converted man, and showed in his life that transforming grace had taken possession of his heart. As firm as a rock, he ever after stood boldly up to witness for Christ. Jesus had said to Peter, "Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Peter had severe trials to pass through, but although he was called to go to prison and to death for Christ's sake, never again did he waver from his allegiance. {RH, April 7, 1891 par. 11}

My question is... where is the walk... did he "arrive at being saved" or truly converted then? or totally called out?  Let's flip the script here... if Peter died before this point at any time during his ministry with Jesus would he have been saved or not?  Did he have a walk of faith?  Where did the character progression take place up to and including that complete conversion?

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Jim on December 26, 2008, 04:59:39 PM
That's true but there isn't evidence that he ever was.  It would seem odd that he was converted before or at the time he met Christ and then backslid during his walk with Christ. It seems more logical since we are not told he was ever converted that he never went through conversion until after Christ's death. I suspect this was true of most all the disciples accept for perhaps John. It seems that there were some big issues with the disciples as they walked with Jesus

It is not that uncommon for people to wander in their relationship to the Lord. It may seem strange to us that one could do this in while in the presence of Jesus himself. But we also think the same thing about Adam and Eve and eve the Israelites after walking through the Red Sea and drinking water from the Rock. Based on the following I believe that the disciples (possibly excluding Judas) were converted before.

Quote
Joh 15:1  I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3  Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

One can not abide in Christ and be unconverted at the same time. The word "clean" here can also be translated "pure".  Here Jesus told them that they were clean by the word. This falls right in line with the following texts...
Quote
Joh 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.  in me.

Eph 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

This is not a "battle" that I'm willing to die over. I'm just not convinced that he wasn't converted before. We all know that we have to die daily in the struggle to keep self down.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Ruth on December 26, 2008, 06:04:14 PM
I don't know if this means anything, but out of curiosity I checked the Luke 22 verse in some other translations (about 6 or 7 other) on BibleGateway.com, and they seem to convey the idea of 'turning again'... which seems to imply that Peter would return to a state where he was once.  'Re-converted' maybe... as opposed to 'converted'?

It might not be important, but I thought I'd just throw it into the ring for consideration. :|

Updated to add:  My Strong's Concordance seems to give that idea as well...

   epistrephō
   ep-ee-stref'-o
   to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 26, 2008, 06:09:22 PM


>>>Should I question whether or not I was "really" baptized when I was really baptized... or "saved" when I was really saved.  This sounds very Calvinistic to me.<<<

 cp >>>I believe what is Calvinistic is to think that salvation is past tense because one was predestined to be saved. I don't think we should question our walk other than to often do intersection to see if we are in the faith. We are to press toward the mark of our high calling, not to worry or doubt but to press forward. The lesson of Peter is there for us so we do not fall into the presumptuous thinking that we are converted just because we have been called and make a move that direction or that we have been saved just because we have been baptized.  

CP - The problem with that is that conversion and sanctification are not identical, synonymous terms.  --- This is a true statement .... conversion starts at a point in time and reoccurs (reconversion -- every day by "dying daily")... to wit - Sanctification is the process that occurs and is a direct result from the continued "walk of faith".

I think you are defining being born again rather than conversion. If we are re converted daily then it would seem strange for Jesus to say, "When thou are converted" if this was already happening daily.

   In the answers that Peter gave to the Lord's thrice-repeated question, a different spirit is manifested from what we find in the boastful assurances before the crucifixion of Christ. Peter was a converted man, and showed in his life that transforming grace had taken possession of his heart. As firm as a rock, he ever after stood boldly up to witness for Christ. Jesus had said to Peter, "Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Peter had severe trials to pass through, but although he was called to go to prison and to death for Christ's sake, never again did he waver from his allegiance. {RH, April 7, 1891 par. 11}

My question is... where is the walk... did he "arrive at being saved" or truly converted then? or totally called out?  Let's flip the script here... if Peter died before this point at any time during his ministry with Jesus would he have been saved or not?  Did he have a walk of faith?  Where did the character progression take place up to and including that complete conversion?

Salvation is a process as I see it. Peter was on the road to salvation. God was saving him. Would Peter have been saved had he died during the three years before his conversion? Though he was not converted I believe he was being prepared for conversion through a learning process. You might call it preconversion or the early steps of conversion.  To add to that question...would Peter have been saved had he died before Jesus called him from the nets. This is entering into an area we have not light on. We do not know how much light shown upon Peter's path before he was called from the nets. We know alot of light was shown upon his path walking with Jesus but are not able to read his heart condition at that time. I believe there were indicators that Peter as he walked with Christ was walking the right direction even though self was still in the way considerably.

     Maybe the closest synonym to conversion is "surrendered." Peter was only half surrendered to Christ when he walked with him. I believe this changed after he denied Christ and then saw the look on Christ's face. Something major happened from that point forward that had not happened before. I believe this was his conversion, a major surrendering of the will and heart.




with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 26, 2008, 06:24:49 PM
I don't know if this means anything, but out of curiosity I checked the Luke 22 verse in some other translations (about 6 or 7 other) on BibleGateway.com, and they seem to convey the idea of 'turning again'... which seems to imply that Peter would return to a state where he was once.  'Re-converted' maybe... as opposed to 'converted'?

It might not be important, but I thought I'd just throw it into the ring for consideration. :|

Updated to add:  My Strong's Concordance seems to give that idea as well...

   epistrephō
   ep-ee-stref'-o
   to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).

 Thank you Ruth;

I take seriously what the Strongs says. There is no doubt that some of the definitions are "return again". Others are "turn"  or "convert."  My thinking is that it would seem strange that Peter instead of growing as he followed and observed Christ would actually have been backsliding away from a former conversion experience. I would like to do a search on the SOP on the term "conversion" and see what can be gleaned.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Larry Lyons on December 26, 2008, 06:37:07 PM
Ruth and Cp, I was thinking along the same lines. If we look carefully at the context, and the Greek word that is translated "Converted" in Luke 22:32, I don't think it necessarily means that Peter was is an unconverted state at that point.

Strongs:
1994--- epistrepho from1909, 1462 to revert--come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again)
1909---epi--a preposition that indicates a superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.) and has multiple uses. See Strongs.
4762---strepho strengthened from the base of 5157; to twist, i.e. turn quite around or reverse--, convert, turn (again, back again, self, about)

(31)AND the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [So Satan apparantly didn't have him at that point] [sifting as wheat would indicte that Satan desired Peter to be separated from Jesus and the other disciples and be lost. That seems to imply that he was not in an un converted or unsaved condition at that point.]
(32) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: [Apparantly Peter had faith] and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. [According to strongs, "epistrepho" may carry the meaning of turning back again to a previous state of faith and acceptance and assurance, as described in John 21: 15-18.

In Desire of Ages EGW has this to say about Peter:
   "When Peter said he would follow his Lord to prison and death, he meant it, every word of it; but he did not know himself. Hidden in his heart were elements of evil that circumstances would fan into life. Unless he was made conscious of his danger, these would prove his eternal ruin. ...Christs solemn warning was a call to heart searching. Peter needed to distrust himself and to have a deeper faith in Christ. Had he in humility received the warning, he would have appealed to the Shepherd of the flock to keep His sheep. When on the sea of Galilee he was about to sink, he cried 'Lord save me.' Matt 14:30. Then the had of Christ was outstretched to grasp his hand. So now if he had cried to Jesus, Save me from myself, he would have been kept.
   "Jesus looks with compassion on His disciples. He cannot save them from the trial, but he does not leave them comfortless. He assures them that He is about top break the fetters of the tomb, and that HIs love for them will not fail....After His death and resurrection, they knew that they were forgiven, and were dear to the heart of Christ."
(Desire of Ages pp 673, 74.)

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: GraceVessel on December 26, 2008, 06:42:28 PM
After thinking about this some more I am wondering...

1) If the disciples (outside Judas) were not having a walk of faith and not consisently being converted and brought into a saving knowledge of Jesus, how can I hope to even have a half a chance of being able to position myself to have "ONE CHANCE" at salvation like Peter did.

2) How do the other quotations from EGW/SOP regarding the Holy Spirit consistently drawing us towards a deeper walk and faith relate to this perspective?

3) Given Peter as the "template" for explaining the conversion experience.  How do we exegete the exact times that the other disciples were actually "saved","converted", "surrendered - pre, post or semi" as per your most recent post CP?

4) If you are a true Arminianist, moving the "slider bar" from the actual "saved point"... defined as converted, surrendered, totally called out... is pure calvinistic.  Because if the person is then totally SAVED at that point... he wont relent and return ... so basicallly in application it's once save always saved in different language.   There is a chance that I am misunderstanding you in what you are trying to say... but either Peter had a walk of faith from the net forward or he didnt... its not kinda, sorta, maybe to me.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 26, 2008, 06:47:46 PM
Then the question arises, are there steps in the conversion experience. It seems like everything hinges on what exactly "conversion" means and what "when thou are converted" means. I believe Peter went through something major when after he denied Christ the thrid time he looked into the face of Jesus. The SOP speaks of this.  I have always seen that as a conversion experience. He was never the same after that...he was surrendered and moldable in the hands of the Holy Spirit where before self rose up often.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: newbie on December 26, 2008, 07:04:31 PM
Then the question arises, are there steps in the conversion experience. It seems like everything hinges on what exactly "conversion" means and what "when thou are converted" means. I believe Peter went through something major when after he denied Christ the thrid time he looked into the face of Jesus. The SOP speaks of this.  I have always seen that as a conversion experience. He was never the same after that...he was surrendered and moldable in the hands of the Holy Spirit where before self rose up often.

This is how I understand it as well.

GV,
I think 1st Peter chapter 2 tells of a converted man.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 26, 2008, 07:06:29 PM
After thinking about this some more I am wondering...

1) If the disciples (outside Judas) were not having a walk of faith and not consisently being converted and brought into a saving knowledge of Jesus, how can I hope to even have a half a chance of being able to position myself to have "ONE CHANCE" at salvation like Peter did.

2) How do the other quotations from EGW/SOP regarding the Holy Spirit consistently drawing us towards a deeper walk and faith relate to this perspective?

3) Given Peter as the "template" for explaining the conversion experience.  How do we exegete the exact times that the other disciples were actually "saved","converted", "surrendered - pre, post or semi" as per your most recent post CP?

4) If you are a true Arminianist, moving the "slider bar" from the actual "saved point"... defined as converted, surrendered, totally called out... is pure calvinistic.  Because if the person is then totally SAVED at that point... he wont relent and return ... so basicallly in application it's once save always saved in different language.   There is a chance that I am misunderstanding you in what you are trying to say... but either Peter had a walk of faith from the net forward or he didnt... its not kinda, sorta, maybe to me.

with kind regards,

Gracevessel

I am exploring several aspects of this and thinking out loud. Every man has a measure of faith. I'm not sure we can just lump all your terms into one definition. I don't believe the "saved" even belongs there as we are cautioned against using this misleading term as it encourages a  Baptist/Calvinistic response. See  COL p. 155
    I do not believe to exercise a limited amount of faith is synonomous with conversion. If it is most everyone has been converted and as appetizing as that may be it is not biblical.
    I do not believe for a moment that Peter was converted  (past tense)through the three years he walked with Jesus. If so, it would seem very strange that Jesus would use the word "when" when in fact Peter would have been converted continually. The closest I can could come to that idea would be that Peter was in various stages of conversion. This would be similar to the sanctification process. I'm not sure they are quite the same. If so Then Jesu swould have been saying, when thou are sanctified feed my sheep.

Many followed Jesus who were not converted. They did this seeking position, food, and healing. Apparently this was even some of the motive involved with the disciples as they wrestled over who was the greatest and who would sit on each side of Jesus.

My point in this is that baptism and being in the church is not necessarily evidence of conversion.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Jim on December 26, 2008, 07:44:13 PM
I'm not sure that I'm understanding the concept of conversion having steps. To me it's like saying that a woman is partially pregnant. If there are steps in conversion then the next natural question is ... at what step does the person in question have an abiding relationship in Christ and therefore in a saved condition?
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 26, 2008, 07:50:04 PM
Maybe these questions should be asked those commenting, "What do you think "conversion means ?  Is it a process or is it a one time experience?

I don't think we are in a saved condition until either Christ comes or we die in the faith. While it may seem like semantics I believe we are being saved (present tense). We may have assurance but this is conditional... on condition of obedience and repentance. To say we are saved is like saying the barn is painted. Once the barn is painted it is painted and will never be other wised. This is once painted always painted. I don't think you mean it that way but past tense indicates it that way. To realize our constant dependance on God is a good thing. To ever be mindful that we have an artful cunning enemy out there that seeks to separate us from Christ and can if we let him, is a good and necessary thing as well.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Jim on December 26, 2008, 08:05:21 PM
Maybe I shouldn't have assumed this but I did....  I took it for granted that everyone here believes that our salvation is conditional. Adam & Eve's salvation was conditional and so was Lucifer's. I personally believe that a person is in a saved condition until he/she takes her eyes of Christ and like Peter falls into the waters of sin. A converted person like Peter will immediately recognize their mistake and call out to Christ to save them. When we are abiding in Christ we can lay hold of the promise that Peter himself wrote that we can become partakers of the divine nature.

I'm not sure if I'd call it a one time experience since it may happen more than once in a person's life. But I do not believe that there are steps in conversion. However, there may have been steps that lead you to the point of conversion.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 26, 2008, 08:09:14 PM



I'm not sure if I'd call it a one time experience since it may happen more than once in a person's life. But I do not believe that there are steps in conversion. However, there may have been steps that lead you to the point of conversion.

How would you define conversion, Jim?

GV seems to take the position that Peter was always converted or in a conversion process. You indicate that it is similar to a born again experience that may happen once or maybe another time as well. You have said that Peter was converted fell away and then was converted again. Is there a difference between being born again and converted ?  Is sanctification as defined as  the work of a lifetime the same as either being born again or converted? I have decided to play the referee and see what might be drawn out of this.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 26, 2008, 08:32:23 PM
Looking in the Index I see what appears like something close to sanctification. On one hand we are told  that it is not necessary to know the exact time or place of our conversion (DA p. 515) (one time event)  on the other hand we are told conversion is not complete until Chrisitan character is perfected ( 2T 505)  ( a process) and to make this even more complex we are told that it happens daily ( 4T 66).  I have not yet read these references (getting lat) but it appears that "conversion" has several applications and definitions. The bottom line in all of this is that we need to be changed, will be changed, and are being changed if we are going to be saved.

There are 4 pages of references on this. "Conversion" seems to be a VERY general term. Perhaps the Lord is not so concerned as to our refined understanding of the term as He is that we experience it through constant surrender.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Jim on December 26, 2008, 09:02:01 PM
Perhaps the Lord is not so concerned as to our refined understanding of the term as He is that we experience it through constant surrender.

I would say a hearty Amen to that! There is a reason why Mrs. White said that our discourses should be simple enough for a child to understand and to leave out big words like justification, sanctification, propitiation etc..etc.. These have different meanings to different people who come from different backgrounds and educations.

Cp, I hope you're not looking for a dictionary definition because I'm not sure that I can give a single concise statement. To me, being converted and being born-again are the same. A born again person has recognized how awful sin really is and longs so much to be re-united with his/her Savior that their heart is broken and they wish nothing more but obey God's will. A converted born-again person will also display all the fruits (not gifts) of the Spirit. However, there may be character traits that need be worked on. This is where sanctification comes in and is a work of a lifetime. This is the best definition of a conversion that I can think of.... and I obviously didn't come up with it myself.

Quote
Eze 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 36:25  Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Heb 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Ruth on December 27, 2008, 05:53:42 AM
Cp, I hope you're not looking for a dictionary definition because I'm not sure that I can give a single concise statement. To me, being converted and being born-again are the same. A born again person has recognized how awful sin really is and longs so much to be re-united with his/her Savior that their heart is broken and they wish nothing more but obey God's will. A converted born-again person will also display all the fruits (not gifts) of the Spirit. However, there may be character traits that need be worked on. This is where sanctification comes in and is a work of a lifetime. This is the best definition of a conversion that I can think of.... and I obviously didn't come up with it myself.

This is my understanding as well, and how it seems to have played out in my own  experience.

In geographical terms, it is as if I was travelling to [let's say] Negril, Jamaica (due west).  Upon being informed that the journey will prove treacherous (potholes? :roll:), I have a change of heart and decide to go to Morant Point (due east) instead.  I turn about (convert, change direction), but I do not arrive at Morant Point instantaneously.  Every restroom break and gas pump stop brings me closer to the destination as long as I keep going in the right direction.

Yeah, I know that might be a bit simplistic, but I am trying to get at the change of direction implicit in conversion.  Hope I didn't just through you all for a loop. :-)
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: colporteur on December 27, 2008, 04:45:56 PM
One thing I think we can all agree on is that conversion is a necessary change. Whatever terms  we use we need decided and continual change. Not just change for the sake of change but positive change that flows the direction God is leading and is revealing through Inspiration. Obviously whatever Pete went through at the beginning of his ministry and whatever his condition when He denied Christ it was not adequate. He needed a decided change for the better. So it is with us and tomorrow the same.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Ruth on December 27, 2008, 04:52:39 PM
Amen!
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Greg Goodchild on September 11, 2009, 08:56:46 AM
We can know that we have the Holy Spirit when our lives and our words, and our eating, and our dress, and our desires for entertainment, etc, are revealed in Jesus. Jesus is to be revealed fully in us just as Jesus revealed fully the Father. John 14:6-12
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Deborah Risinger on September 11, 2009, 12:27:47 PM
This may not be "theological" in any way...however....I am out of jail, off drugs, sober, sane, don't practice witchcraft anymore...and I don't eat my husband for dinner !!!!!!!!

Now, thats' the Work and Grace of GOD ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Praise Him, Praise Him, Praise Him,
Deborah
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Greg Goodchild on September 11, 2009, 03:32:50 PM
That is precisely the theology of the book "The Gospel According to Deborah." II Corinthians 3:2
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: God is Good on September 12, 2009, 12:43:39 PM
The Holy Spirit was given to draw all men unto Him. If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Saviour ... you have the Holy Spirit. Now what you do with it is your business.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: newbie on September 12, 2009, 02:57:09 PM
The Holy Spirit was given to draw all men unto Him. If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Saviour ... you have the Holy Spirit. Now what you do with it is your business.

This is only imputed justification like at baptism.. 
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Greg Goodchild on September 12, 2009, 11:14:02 PM
If one has the Holy Spirit in their hearts what they do will be His business.
Title: Laodicea and the shaking.
Post by: maymee on October 31, 2013, 03:20:10 PM
The main Job The Holy Spirit has today, is to convince we are huge sinners, in need of true repentance. How about you, How is the situation in the world today, peace peace, or is it a huge war?   Are you ready to let The Holy Spirit change your character, and make you fit for spiritual war, or does Jesus have to go from you, because you dont want to.

many are called, but only few are chosen.
Title: Re: Laodicea and the shaking.
Post by: newbie on November 01, 2013, 05:13:07 PM
The Holy Spirit will rebuke and lead one to repentance... will guide in daily life ....will give clarity to the scriptures....etc.

Those that are Filled with the Holy Spirit will LOVE all and treat all with kindness ...never speak or defend self...  will praise God for His wonderful Mercy in our cases... will give Glory to God in all that we think, speak, or do.

We're not quite there yet but God is working on us all that those that stay close to Him and cling to Him will be transformed step by step by taking His Word into our dear hearts and souls.

When the severe tests come, those that stay strong, He will KNOW them.
Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Ed Sutton on November 02, 2013, 02:16:17 AM
CP trying to use SOP to answer some of your questions.

Quote
   Reply #75 on: December 26, 2008, 07:50:04 PM »
Quote
Maybe these questions should be asked those commenting, "What do you think "conversion means ?  Is it a process or is it a one time experience?

I don't think we are in a saved condition until either Christ comes or we die in the faith. While it may seem like semantics I believe we are being saved (present tense). We may have assurance but this is conditional... on condition of obedience and repentance. To say we are saved is like saying the barn is painted. Once the barn is painted it is painted and will never be other wised. This is once painted always painted. I don't think you mean it that way but past tense indicates it that way. To realize our constant dependance on God is a good thing. To ever be mindful that we have an artful cunning enemy out there that seeks to separate us from Christ and can if we let him, is a good and necessary thing as well.   
***************************
( “not saved until” = 2 hits )

How few bear in mind that the tempter was once a covering cherub, a being whom God created for His own name's glory. Satan fell from his high position through self-exaltation; he misused the high capabilities with which God had so richly endowed him. He fell for the same reason that thousands are falling today, because of an ambition to be first, an unwillingness to be under restraint. The Lord would teach man the lesson that, though united in church capacity, he is not saved until the seal of God is placed upon him. . . .  {7BC 969.3} 
     The Lord has a work for us all to do. And if the truth is not rooted in the heart, if the natural traits of character are not transformed by the Holy Spirit, we can never be colaborers with Jesus Christ. Self will constantly appear, and the character of Christ will not be manifested in our lives (Letter 80, 1898).  {7BC 969.4} 
*********************************************
 How few bear in mind that the tempter was once a covering cherub, a being whom God created for His own name's glory. Satan fell from his high position through self-exaltation; he misused the high capabilities with which God had so richly endowed him. He fell for the same reason that thousands are falling today, because of an ambition to be first, an unwillingness to be under restraint. The Lord would teach man the lesson that, though united in church capacity, he is not saved until the seal of God is placed upon him, and he is made complete in Christ.  {11MR 367.2} 

********************************
( placi* seal* = 12 hits )

( plac* seal* = 239  hits )

( plac* seal* of God = 182  Hits )

( seal* third = 45 hits )

****************************************
( conversion  new birth ) = 6 hits

  It is the work of conversion and sanctification to reconcile men to God by bringing them into accord with the principles of His law. In the beginning, man was created in the image of God. He was in perfect harmony with the nature and the law of God; the principles of righteousness were written upon his heart. But sin alienated him from his Maker. He no longer reflected the divine image. His heart was at war with the principles of God's law. "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7. But "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son," that man might be reconciled to God. Through the merits of Christ he can be restored to harmony with his Maker. His heart must be renewed by divine grace; he must have a new life from above. This change is the new birth, without which, says Jesus, "he cannot see the kingdom of God."  {GC 467.2} 
****************************************************
( conversion progressive ) = 7  hits

( “conversion is” = 99 hits )
( “new conversion” = 45 hits
**********************
 By looking constantly to Jesus, from morn till eve, with the eye of faith, we shall be strengthened. God will make the most precious revelations to His hungering, thirsting people. They will find that Christ is a personal Savior. They feed upon His word, for it is spirit and life. This word kills the natural, earthly nature, and a new life in Christ Jesus is created. The Holy Spirit comes as a Comforter to them. Love takes the place of hatred, and the heart receives the mold of the divine similitude. The image of Christ is reproduced in the human agent, and by the transforming efficacy of the grace of Christ he becomes a new creature. "As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13). This is the new birth.  {10MR 166.1}

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Ed Sutton on November 02, 2013, 02:23:16 AM
5k limit

Since the process leading up to the new birth - ie - conversion - is not a one time thing
Quote
By looking constantly to Jesus, from morn till eve, with the eye of faith, we shall be strengthened.
and Paul died daily and had a new conversion daily - conversion and sanctification being intertwined are daily and not a one time thing.

Quote
   Do not dwell on the imperfections or the mistakes of the past. Press forward, looking to the glorious things that are before. Let your conversation be in heaven, "from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ." Put away all discontent, all murmuring, all disagreeable words. We do not honor Christ when we dispute and quarrel one with another. No one will enter heaven with a spirit of fault-finding, and we desire to have a foretaste of the principles of heaven manifested here below.  {7MR 49.3} 
     Let every professed believer advance. We are to have sanctified, refined aspirations, worthy ambitions. Ever press onward, seeking for a character that will represent that of the Lord Jesus.  Let every professed believer advance. We are to have sanctified, refined aspirations, worthy ambitions. Ever press onward, seeking for a character that will represent that of the Lord Jesus. We are to recognize the perfection of His character, and demonstrate in our lives the principles of that character.  {7MR 49.4}   
***********************************
Quote
   Under the Lord's guidance, every sphere of action, every position in life, every disappointment, becomes the means of the development of Christian experience. . . . God designs every man to reach the perfection of character revealed in Christ's humanity. . . . The believer becomes imbued with the love, grace, kindness and benevolence that led Jesus to go about doing good. He beholds constantly a loving, tender, compassionate Saviour. The more he beholds Him, the more he longs and prays to be like Him in character.--Letter 173, 1899, pp. 1, 2, 4. (To Peter Wessels, November 4, 1899.)  {7MR 149.2} 
     This fallen world is in strange hands. Men rule for hire and preach for hire. In all business transactions there is a strife for the supremacy. If Christ should walk through the streets of our cities today, few would have interest enough to follow Him. . . . Let me urge you, my brother, to seek for a deeper insight into the truth as it is in Jesus.--Letter 174, 1899, pp. 4, 6. (To H. C. Lacey, October 30, 1899.)  {7MR 149.3}   

***********************

Quote
When we reflect Christ's image, we shall love one another as He has loved us. We shall not love as we love our neighbor, but as Christ loved us. It is an advance to love as Christ loved. This is the perfection of Christian character. When we can say, My will is wholly submerged in God's will, then peace and rest come in.  {7MR 389.1} 
     We must have that love, else we cannot be perfect before God. We may be active, we may do much work, but unless we love as Christ loved, our candlestick will be removed out of its place. . . .  {7MR 389.2} 
     We have little enough of Christ's character. We need it all through our ranks, We must reveal that love which dwelt in Jesus. Then we shall keep the commandment [that we love one another], which not one in a hundred of those who claim to believe the truth for this time are keeping. . . .  {7MR 389.3} 
     Perfect unity must exist in a diversity of gifts. A union of all the gifts is essential. The one great commandment Christ has given is a new commandment. It reaches beyond loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. We are to love one another, "as I," said Christ, "have loved you." This experience must be obtained by every child of God. All must blend together in the work, thus making the work not onesided, but a complete whole.--Letter 121, 1898, pp. 6-8. (To S. N. Haskell and wife, December 12, 1898.)  {7MR 389.4} 

******************************

Title: Re: How Can We Know We Have the Holy Spirit
Post by: Ed Sutton on November 02, 2013, 03:05:50 AM
5 k limit

Quote
Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart and is revealed in the countenance.  {COL 384.2}
     It is not possible for the heart in which Christ abides to be destitute of love. If we love God because He first loved us, we shall love all for whom Christ died. We cannot come in touch with divinity without coming in touch with humanity; for in Him who sits upon the throne of the universe, divinity and humanity are combined. Connected with Christ, we are connected with our fellow men by the golden links of the chain of love. Then the pity and compassion of Christ will be manifest in our life. We shall not wait to have the needy and unfortunate brought to us. We shall not need to be entreated to feel for the woes of others. It will be as natural for us to minister to the needy and suffering as it was for Christ to go about doing good.  {COL 384.3}     

(   "The completeness of Christian character is attained when" =  8 hits )
1. {AA 551.1}  read context
2. {CME 47.2}
3. {COL 384.2}
4. {AG 145.4 - .5} ...."complete in Christ."  look up ( seal* + "complete in Christ")
5. {Mar 101.2}
6. {RC 234.4}
7. {WM 81.4}
8. {RH, April 3, 1900 par. 1}